Hunab Ku

topic posted Mon, November 7, 2005 - 10:35 PM by  Hoopes
I know this Hunab Ku symbol thing has really caught on amongst 2012 enthusiasts, but I'm curious to know how it started. Can someone tell me on what Precolumbian Maya object (stone sculpture, ceramic vessel, etc.) this symbol actually appears? All you need to say is that it appears on Stela "X" from the site of "_____" or that it appears on a Late Classic vase, Kerr No. ____. There are a huge number of objects, including wonderful painted vases, represented in Justin Kerr's photograph collections at www.famsi.org/research/kerr

Where does the symbol of Hunab Ku appear in an ancient Maya context? Where are there references to this deity other than the Book of Chilam Balam of Chuyamel (a source dating to 1782 that was heavily influenced by post-Conquest Christian teachings)?
posted by:
Hoopes
  • Re: Hunab Ku

    Mon, November 7, 2005 - 10:42 PM
    By the way, there is a copy of Ralph Roys' 1933 translation of The Book of Chilam Balam of Chuyamel online at:

    www.sacred-texts.com/nam/may...bc00.htm

    The specific history of this text is described in the Introduction:

    www.sacred-texts.com/nam/may...m#page_3

    It is probably worth mentioning that any attempt to interpret this text literally or uncritically is no more valid than doing the same thing with the Bible.
    • Re: Hunab Ku

      Mon, November 7, 2005 - 10:48 PM
      The account of "The creation of the world" in this text can be found at:

      www.sacred-texts.com/nam/may...bc15.htm

      It's worth reading, though by no means easy to understand.
      • Re: Hunab Ku

        Mon, November 7, 2005 - 11:42 PM
        Arguelles claimed in The Mayan Factor that he first encountered the symbol on a pair of textiles which he found in the possession of a Mayan elder - obviously textiles of contemporary origin, so I don't know when or where the mandala-like Hunab Ku image first appeared...?
        • Re: Hunab Ku

          Wed, November 9, 2005 - 2:40 PM
          In other words, the Hunab Ku symbol could easily have been introduced to the Mayas in 1967 by a hippie tourist with a ying-yang T-shirt (or was it tye-dye?).

          There is a huge amount of ancient Maya art out there. If anyone can find a representation of the Hunab Ku symbol that dates earlier than Arguelles' visit, please let me know.
          • Re: Hunab Ku

            Thu, November 10, 2005 - 4:14 AM
            The figure popularly known as Hunab Ku appears in the Nuttall codex, (according to John Major Jenkins), though in a rectangular format. The Nuttall Codex is a pre-conquest Mixtec document, (circa 1060 AD) named after Zelia Nuttall, the scholar who identified and published it, and it is housed in the Museum of Mankind of the British Museum in London. It is on 47 leaves of animal skin. The best available reproduction of the symbol can be seen in Maya Cosmogenesis 2012 p.329 or Beyond 2012 p.174. The circular versions are, as far as I know, modern renditions, as started by Jose Arguelles in the Mayan Facor (though he also shows rectangular copies).

            A paperback version of the Nuttall Codex is available from Amazon.com, but I haven’t got a copy, so I did a Google image search on a restricted access site, that has the whole codex online. If you google “nuttall codex” you will find this page:
            www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/h...e/nuttall/

            but it accessible to memers only, so if you hit the Google cache button, you will get a cached version.That page gives the jpg titles for 86 plates of the codex. Feed these into a Google image search (nuttallpl101; nuttallpl102, etc), and you will see miniatures of all the plates. You have to be a member to get the enlarged versions. However, at the very small size viewed, I couldn’t see the symbol in question. This means it must be quite small. I’m thinking of buying the paperback now you have piqued my curiosity.

            Cheers

            Straydog
            • Re: Hunab Ku

              Thu, November 10, 2005 - 9:31 PM
              This makes sense to me, since the design looks central Mexican rather than anything typically Mayan. I know the Nuttall Codex. In fact, I've got a copy of it (at my office though, not at hand). You're correct in identifying it as Mixtec, with an Early Postclassic date (about a century or so after the lowland Maya "collapse").

              The Nuttall Codex has got nothing whatsoever to do with the Mayas (the Mixtecs lived far to the north and west of Maya territory, between Puebla and Oaxaca). That the circular versions of the design are modern renditions doesn't surprise me at all. They could have been copied from the 1975 Dover Publications paperback edition of the Nuttall Codex.

              It's odd that an Early Postclassic Mixtec design would come to be associated with the Maya name Hunab Ku. Jenkins calls it "a Mesoamerican design commonly referred to as Hunab Ku," but I don't know of any scholars who ever called it that!. It's even more puzzling how this symbol came to have calendrical associations. There is no evidence that the Mixtecs ever kept the Long Count calendar that points to 2012. They didn't even write in bar-and-dot numerals, expressing numbers as strings of beads instead.

              The Nuttall Codex mostly recounts royal genealogy and documents the exploits of a Mixtec ruler named Eight Deer Jaguar-Claw, who lived from 1011 to 1050. It includes dates and counts of days, but is not an almanac or calendrical document at all.
              • Re: Hunab Ku

                Fri, November 11, 2005 - 11:53 AM
                The Nuttall codex symbol is often used to represent Hunab Ku, who is often said to be located at Galactic Centre, but what has this got to do with the Long Count termination point?

                At the Yucatan site of Tancah, the murals “show striking similarities to the designs of pre-conquest Mixtec codices from the Mexican highlands…” (Sharer, The Ancient Maya p.413). Sharer also says, “ Thus, as part of Mesoamerica, the ancient Maya were influenced by, and in turn influenced, their neighbouring cultures, such as the Olmecs to the northwest,, on the Gulf coastal plain, the Zapotec and Mixtec of Oaxaca (west of the isthmus), the cultures centered in Teotihuacan and Tula (to the north, in Central Mexico), and the less well-known societies to the southeast in Central America”(Sharer p.20). So, though there could have been cross-over of symbology in this case, (and definitely was in other cases, e.g. in the case of the Toltec Quetzalcoatl adopted by the Yucatec Maya as Kukulcan), I think the initial Hunab-Ku – G symbol connection was actually made by Hunbatz Men, in his 1986 book Religion Ciencia Maya, which was published in English in 1990 as Secrets of Maya Science / Religion.

                Though Men’s book doesn’t show the symbol we are discussing, Men says that the G symbol used by the Maya represents the Milky Way (Men, 1990, p.34), and this was also the case with the G symbol as used by the Teotihuacan people, and the Zapotecs (ibid., p.38). The G symbol as used at Mitla, Oaxaca, Mexico, and as shown on the statue of Xochipilli, god (or goddess according to Men) of the Mexicas (Aztecs) also refers to the Milky Way, according to Men (ibid. p.42). He says, “In my book, The Astronomical Calendars of the Maya and Hunab K’u, I show how the Nahua or Mexica adored Hunab K’u. They worshipped him using the names In Tloke Nahuake and Ipalnemohuani. This god was represented in the Aztec calendar, the so-called Sun Stone. In this present book, I will attempt to demonstrate that the Mexicas, as well as the Maya, worshipped the Milky Way, as represented by the symbolic “G”.” (ibid., p.40-41). In the text applying to Fig. 10 of his book, Men also includes the Mixtecs as venerators of “the sacred “G” as the symbolic representation of the Milky Way.”

                Although Men doesn’t clearly state that Hunab K’u is the Milky Way, he could be thus interpreted in this statement; “The Maya lived integrally worshipping that which is represented by the “G”. I will reveal to you, dear reader, with all due respect for the sacred Hunab’Ku, from whom came my illumination and who enabled me to see it, the place of origin of this form. It is nothing less than our galaxy. Yes, the Milky Way!” (ibid., p.34) Also, the following quote could be thus interpreted: “For the Maya, wherever the symbol of zero is marked, its value is known, for it represents the essence of the beginning, the Logos. It is the form of the seed. Thus, it is said that in order to understand the sacred Hunab’Ku, the Only Giver of Movement and Measure, one must venerate the origin of the zero, the Milky Way, because it is there that the mold for the most ancient things was located.”

                Arguelles met Hunbatz Men in 1985, and he says, “There is no question that my meeting with Humbatz (sic) was the most crucial event in my long history of working with the Mayan material” (Mayan Factor p.40). Arguelles seems to have interpreted the symbol from the Nuttall codex as an example of the Mesoamerican G symbol representing the Milky Way, as described by Men, and also seems to have got the impression that Hunab K’u is the Milky Way. On p.52 of The Mayan Factor, Arguelles describes Hunab K’u as “the galactic core”, and says, “Hunab K’u is usually translated as “One Giver of movement and Measure”. He shows the rectangular version of the Nuttall codex symbol, labelled with Hunbatz Men’s definition: “Hunab K’u: One Giver of Movement and Measure”.

                However, Sharer gives the translation of Hunab K’u as follows: “In perhaps its most fundamental aspect, Itzamna was Hunab Ku, the creator of the universe. “They worshipped a single god who was named Hunab and Zamana, which is to say only one god.” “Hunab Ku” means precisely that in Yucatec Mayan (“hun, “one”; ab, “state of being”; ku, “god”). Itzamna’s role as creator was so remote from everyday affairs, however, that Hunab Ku seems to have figured little in the life of the ancient Maya, and no representations of Hunab Ku have been identified in the codices or elsewhere.”

                So, it seems that Arguelles’ interpretation of Hunbatz Men’s book resulted in the depiction of Hunab Ku as the Nuttall codex symbol, and likewise, resulted in the association of Hunab Ku with Galactic Centre. Since it was Arguelles’ book, the Mayan Factor, and his associated event, Harmonic Convergence, that led to the current widespread interest in the Maya calendars and 2012, (regardless of any errors he made in the book and event – see www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/dspell.htm and www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/harm.htm ), this explains the current use of this symbol to represent Galactic Centre. Since several theories (apart from Arguelles’ own Galactic Synchronisation theory –see www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/1.htm#...Synchro ) have been put forward connecting the 2012 termination point with the centre of the galaxy; e.g.Galactic Alignment – see www.levity.com/eschaton/Why2012.html , Galactic Core Explosion - see www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/7.htm#sphinxstar and Magnetised plasma band theory – see ascension2000.com/DivineCosmos/08.htm , the symbol is useful for representing the Galactic Centre area when presenting theories about the end of the 13-baktun cycle in 2012. So, regardless of the likely possibility that the symbol has no real history as a Maya symbol for Galactic Centre, it remains useful in depicting it, since there is no obvious alternative.

                As a matter of interest, Hoopes, could you check your copy of the Nuttall codex, and let us know if you find the and what page it is on?
                • Re: Hunab Ku

                  Fri, November 11, 2005 - 4:48 PM
                  Thanks so much for this helpful research. Unfortunately, I was unable to track down the symbol today. I will post an image of the glyph from the Nuttall in this tribe when I can get my hands on it.

                  Yes, you're right about the Maya being influenced by cultures to the north, though I suspect the similarity of the Yucatan murals to Mixtec codices is due to a common source for both in central Mexico rather than any Mixtec-Maya communication. The role of Teotihuacan in all of this is often underestimated. It was there, and probably at Cuicuilco even earlier, that the Feathered Serpent was manifest as a prominent deity. For some good info on Teo, see archaeology.la.asu.edu/teo

                  My suspicion of Hunab Ku comes from its original context: The Book of Chilam B'alam of Chuyamel. There is no question but that this document had heavy Christian influence, making it difficult to have any confidence that the ancient Maya actually believed in "one god". I do not know of any indigenous, pre-Contact references to Hunab Ku and would be appreciative of information about these. (As Sharer writes, "no representations of Hunab Ku have been identified in the codices or elsewhere").

                  The Maya were also heavily influenced by European culture after the arrival of the Spanish, of course. I could be mistaken, but "Hunab Ku" sounds to me like a term cooked up by a missionary in order to teach the Mayas the first of the Ten Commandments.

                  Rather than synchronization, we may be seeing a case of synchretism.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Hunab Ku

                    Sat, November 12, 2005 - 5:53 AM
                    Thanks for this Hoopes - I look forward to seeing the image. Ferrara, could you tell us what page of The Maya Factor, Arguelles mentions the textiles, please?

                    I have a copy of the rather rare Chilam Balam of Mani, and thought I would share a passage that throws more light on this subject, and seems to support what you said, Hoopes. From p.74 of the Craine/Reindorp version on Oklahoma University press, 1979:

                    Words of Chilam Balam, Priest of Mani

                    “At the conclusion of the Katun 13 Ahau, the Itza will see, perhaps in Tancah, the sign [symbol] of the One God [Hunab Ku], the erect tree (43) which will be shown so that the world will be enlightened. Lords, console yourselves, discord and confusion will be finished, when the bearer of the cross [sign] comes to us. In the future, priests everywhere will be enlightened. Itzamna, (44) your master, will come. Itza, the true god will come to enlighten you. Receive your guests, the bearded ones, who will be bearers of the standard of the true God who shall come to arrange the day of resurrection. The commandments of the true God will be good and the new truth will be substituted for the old one. (In the old books we are taught that the world will change.) (45) The Itza will accept and worship the one True God (46) who comes from heaven. Oh, Itza! Thus enlightened you will believe in Him in the next Katun. Believe my message. I, Chilam Balam, have explained the word of the True God, in the ninth year of the Katun [11] Ahau.”

                    Notes

                    43: The Cross. The symbolof Quetzalcoatl-Kukulcan was also a form of cross, but the cruciform had parts of equal length.
                    44: The supreme god of the Mayas and father of all the other gods.
                    45:
                    46:The Maya text reads “Ku li kul caanale,” “God the holy one of heaven” – a play on the name Kukulcan. Originally an effort to tie Kukulcan of the Itzas closer to the Hunab Ku of the Xiu. Here used for the purposes of Christianity.

                    A controversial appendix:

                    On p. 104-107, note 139 says, “…It appears that the Mayas also thought the Itzas inferior because they had little or no knowledge of the “sacred books”, could not count time, and had little understanding of Maya customs and traditions.” Since Hunbatz Men claims to be of the Itza line, this might explain why his a friend of mine, who attended a week-long workshop in the Yucatan with him, and who is familiar with Maya and Dreamspell calendars, found the Hunbatz Men calendars to be incomprehensible.
                    • Re: Hunab Ku

                      Sun, November 13, 2005 - 7:58 PM
                      In other words, Catholic missionaries of Colonial Mexico were attempting to use the concept of "Hunab Ku" (which they may well have invented) for the "one true God." This is really not so different from its recent adoption by the "Spiritual Left" (the modern antithesis to the Religious Right) to persuade true believers of the power of the galactic center. It's a bit ironic that this concept, a tool of Christian ideologues who sought to destroy traditional Maya culture, has been adopted by others who are now claiming to "discover" and celebrate it.

                      The ancient Maya interest in the Milky Way was not due to any concept of a galaxy with a center, much less a black hole. Rather, they identified the Milky Way as variously the body or the mouth of an enormous cosmic serpent through which our own world passed. It was also the World Tree and the Road to Xibalba. The celetial phenomenon of the Milky Way and its undulations in the sky can be fascinating to observe without ever grasping the concept of a galaxy, much less a black hole at its center.

                      How to explain the coming "galactic alignment"? Well, I'm still trying to identify a professional astronomer who considers the selection of December 21, 2012 for the date of this event to be anything other than fanciful speculation. Galaxies move quite slowly in the grand scheme of things, so how can a single year, much less a single day, be correlated with an "alignment"? The date fits Jenkins' and others' hypothesis, but science works because of a concept known as falsifiability. What would be the circumstances that would indicate that 2012 was *not* the year that corresponds to a galactic alignment? (Whatever happened with the "New Age of Peace" that was supposed to begin on August 17, 1987. If you haven't noticed, it hasn't exactly kicked in yet!)

                      I'm still trying to find the original version of the "Hunab Ku" symbol. Someone must have borrowed my Nuttall and not returned it! (I'll have to track down another copy.)
                      • Re: Hunab Ku

                        Wed, November 16, 2005 - 4:17 PM
                        I spent almost an hour today poring over *both* sides of a 1992 accordion-fold, photographic facsimile of the Codex Nuttall and was not able to find any representation of the "Hunab Ku" glyph.

                        The closest I was able to come was the representation of someone wearing a textile with a black-and-white, interlocking, step-and-fret (also known as "Greek key") design on the right-hand side of p. 17 of the codex. This is not an unusual Mesoamerican design and related designs appear in several different parts of the Nuttall. The step-and-fret motif is best known from the stone mosaic decorations on the walls of ruins at the site of Mitla, in Oaxaca (which is also depicted in the Codex Nuttall), but can be found in many, many pottery designs. It is not specific to Mesoamerica, and also appears in ancient Greece and elsewhere.

                        If someone can tell me what John Major Jenkins was referring to, I'll go back and have another look at the Codex Nuttall. However, whatever is there is not very obvious. Certainly nothing like the symbol reproduced in Jenkins' book.

                        I will also ask Jenkins himself and report back if he replies.
                        • Re: Hunab Ku

                          Thu, November 17, 2005 - 8:58 AM
                          Well, here's what Jenkins has to say:

                          "I'm trying to retrace my steps with this one, as I don't see it in my fascimile copy of the Nuttall codex. There was a romance novel called House of the Dawn by Ryan published in 1914 that used this exact 'Hunab Ku' symbol in its frontispiece design. I assumed it was a fanciful redesign for that publication until I saw it in some academic work; perhaps it was in Zelia Nuttall's interesting study of polar symbology:

                          Nuttall, Zelia 1901 The Fundamental Principles of Old and New World Civilizations: A Comparative Research Based on a Study of the Ancient Mexican Religious, Sociological and Calendrical Systems. Archaeological and Ethnological Papers of the Peabody Museum, Vol. II. Harvard University. Salem, MA: Salem Press.

                          and perhaps this is why I misattributed it to the Nuttall codex. As for its connection with 'the sacred G' and/or 'the Galactic Center' it is now apparent that this designation comes from either Arguelles or, more likely in my opinion, Hunbatz Men (Mayan Science and Religion, 1990). Hunbatz Men may claim it comes from his elders, but he and Arguelles worked together on different things in the mid and late 80s, adding confusion to distinguishing real from new age invention in the late 80s. I found and still find, the seeming linguistic connection between Hunab Ku and Hunahpu to be intriguing."

                          This is consistent with what we've been discussing here and it looks as though Dire got it right. Thanks to all of you for the enlightening discussion!
                          • Re: Hunab Ku

                            Thu, November 17, 2005 - 1:50 PM
                            I met Hunbatz Men at this New Age convention thingie a few years ago - I read his book... I couldn't make head nor tail of what he was trying to say, and frankly (with all due respect to the Mayan elder) it struck me as gibberish - I came to the conclusion that a lot was lost in the translation, and left it at that...
                    • Re: Hunab Ku

                      Sun, November 13, 2005 - 9:06 PM
                      > Ferrara, could you tell us what page of The Maya Factor, Arguelles mentions the textiles, please?

                      In my 1987 edition of The Mayan Factor, Arguelles tells the account of finding the Hunab Ku textiles on pp. 31-32 - The accompanying image of Hunab Ku (and presumably the shape of the woven rugs) is rectangular...

                      Thanks to everyone above for the well-researched and articulate ontributions to this discussion...
                      • Re: Hunab Ku

                        Mon, November 14, 2005 - 9:03 PM
                        >>>Thanks to everyone above for the well-researched and articulate ontributions to this discussion...

                        here here.
                        • Re: Hunab Ku

                          Wed, November 16, 2005 - 5:36 PM
                          I realize that I am revealing my own personal weakness of sheer vanity here, but if you want to check out my Hunab Ku tattoo (inked on Halloween of 1988), go to my tribe profile and check page 3 of my photo album...
                          • Re: Hunab Ku

                            Wed, November 16, 2005 - 5:37 PM
                            CORRECTION: It's on PAGE 2, not 3
                            • Re: Hunab Ku

                              Wed, November 16, 2005 - 6:52 PM
                              revealed weakness? oh, contrare, well disguised machismo more like...e:)
                              • Re: Hunab Ku

                                Wed, November 16, 2005 - 7:33 PM
                                Oh if you really knew me I am anything BUT macho - That photo was a self-conscious attempt at a Jim Morrison pose - and nothing more than that: a pose... Extrovertive streak, yes; machismo, no...

                                No offense taken, however, I assure you... :)
                          • Re: Hunab Ku

                            Wed, November 16, 2005 - 9:52 PM
                            Very prescient of you! I've always thought that Precolumbian (and Precolumbian-inspired) designs made great tattoos. In fact, back around 1989/90 or so I was so taken with the great tattoo renaissance that I actually made up packets of my favorite Central and South American designs and mailed them off to major tattoo artists (Don "Ed" Hardy, the folks at Guilty & Innocent, etc.) in the hope that I'd inspire more Precolumbian ink. I don't know if it worked, but it looks as if you were ahead of the curve! I hope you're still happy with the design. It's a beautiful one, even if it isn't Maya...
                            • Re: Hunab Ku

                              Wed, November 16, 2005 - 10:21 PM
                              Thanks! And the placement of the design over my solar plexus was quite deliberate - Arguelles claims (whether you choose to believe him or not) that there is a 'resonant pathway' called the Kuxan Suum which connects each human being at the solar plexus (intuitive center) with the galactic center Hunab Ku - I still fully identify with the image and its placement on my body - There are a lot of nerve endings in the stomach area, that tattoo took two hours to finish in one session and it was the most painful inking I have had to endure, but it was worth it...
                              • Re: Hunab Ku

                                Wed, November 16, 2005 - 10:43 PM
                                > whether you choose to believe him or not

                                It's not my intention to denigrate any of the spiritual contemplation that Arguelles inspires. I just think it's a tad disingenuous to attribute ideas to the ancient Maya when there's no evidence that they actually had them. This should not detract from their present value. Religion, spirituality, and their associated mythologies have always been in a state of constant evolution, although some claim certain beliefs to be timeless.
                            • Re: Hunab Ku

                              Wed, November 16, 2005 - 10:33 PM
                              I just posted two photos of the famous decorated walls at the Mixtec site of Mitla, in Oaxaca, Mexico. It's these walls that are depicted in some of the images in the Codex Nuttall, ones that may have provided the inspiration for the "Hunab Ku" symbol. The geometric designs are probably representations in stone of patterns that were originally made on woven textiles.

                              Incidentally, it was weavers from this part of southern Mexico whose designs were copied and modified to create what are now considered to be "traditional" Navajo rugs. I've always found it somewhat ironic that Navajo purists frown upon Mexican "imitations" when in fact it was the indigenous people of Mexico who were weaving these patterns in cotton cloth centuries before anyone ever saw sheep in Arizona!

                              Unless someone can persuade me otherwise, I'm coming to the conclusion that: 1) the "Hunab Ku" symbol is neither Maya nor even Precolumbian (though it may be Mixtec-inspired), and 2) the concept of "Hunab Ku" was a Colonial invention. If either have anything to do with the galactic center, those associations date no earlier than the last decade of the 20th century.

                              By the way, if anyone would like prints of my "Blood Ceiba" and "In the Dream Palace" images, please send me a personal message. The first is a photo I took of a beautiful tree at the Maya site of Pomoná and the second is of a room in the Palace at Palenque, both taken during a trip to Chiapas last March.
  • Re: Hunab Ku

    Thu, November 17, 2005 - 5:44 PM
    just found this at mayanmajix.com

    This symbol is called the Galactic Butterfly which is said to represent all of the consciousness that has ever existed in this galaxy. This is all of our physical ancestors both human, animal, reptile, fish, shell fish, plants as well as the consciousness which organized all of the raw material from a whirling disk into stars then planets and solar systems. Big Meaning. So big that the original Maya had no symbol for this. In their civilization it was like having no name for God. Just knowing the concept was good enough. Later this pattern was devised by Toltec or Zapatec weavers as a pattern for blankets and this is where Jose Arguelles came across it. He called it Hunab Ku. The indigenous peoples call it "The Galactic Butterfly". Butterflies are seen as ancestors returning for a visit to physicality. Wearing one of these symbols is very powerful as it broadcasts your reaching to actively join the consciousness of our galaxy.

    check out the site...mayanmajix.com
    • Re: Hunab Ku

      Thu, November 17, 2005 - 5:46 PM
      Thanks, Travis... that is a wonderfully intuitive and magical (as opposed to scholarly) interpretation of the symbol...
      • Re: Hunab Ku

        Thu, November 17, 2005 - 6:06 PM
        I agree. I just don't understand why it's necessary to have an association with the Maya to validate the significance of the symbol.

        Why not just say it's *our* symbol (which is is) and that *we* have invented it and assigned deep wisdom of it? Why don't we give credit to what's becoming a valuable consciousness within *our* civilization? After all, it is *we* who have discovered the galactic center with our enlightenment, our science, our money, and our effort.

        It is *we* who are both magical and scholarly, in ways that never cease to amaze.
        • Re: Hunab Ku

          Sun, November 20, 2005 - 2:04 PM
          according to Adam Rubel of Saq Be (www.sacredroad.org) who is in direct contact with mayan elders, the correct interpretation of Hunab Ku is 'Unity in the Heart of Diversity' (Hun = one or unity; Ab = diversity; Ku = heart)

          the hunab ku symbol is connected to the maya because as Arguelles relates in 'the mayan factor' those who first presented him with the design attributed it to the maya & their knowledge of the yin-yang principle

          we may say that it is our symbol and that we have invented it, which is true enough, but only if we accept that 'we' include those that originally presented it to Jose, and in turn those that had previously passed the symbol onto them. since Jose and his presenters as individual aspects of 'ourself' are closer to the original source than the individuals of Hoopes, Dire, Jenkins, or myself, I will surely accept the contention that there is a mayan connection before i accept that there is no mayan connection.
          and this raises the question, 'who are 'we'?' are we not maya ourselves?

          as for the origin of the term Hunab Ku, the concept certainly did exist among the pre-columbian maya unless your contention is that the spiritual constitution of the maya was so weak and ill-developed that they immediately and seemingly without struggle bought into an entirely new paradime of a 'one true god'

          the idea of hunab ku is recorded in the prophecies of Chilam Balam, who by all accounts lived before the arrival of the spainiards.
          are you saying that the spainiards arrived, then concocted a fairy tail about a mayan prophet which the indigenous people in a move of gullibility unparalleled in the history of civilization immediately swallowed, and based soully on the word of the spainiards they not only accepted the idea of this prophet but they then made up their own texts about his life and prophecy which they religiously maintained for centuries afterword?
          how little respect must you have for the maya & their spirituality to come to such a conclusion?
          these people have resisted genocide and every form of oppression down to the present day chiefly through the strength of their spirituality and conviction that the knowledge must not be lost. it is hardly concieveable that the apparatus behind such conviction is ersatz.

          far more likely, and a perspective far more respectful to the indigenous people, is that Hunab Ku was indeed the 'great spirit' of the pre-conquest maya, and this 'one true god' was a recapitulation of the ancient diety Hunahpu (Hun Ahau, or 1-Lord) ... even in the most ancient olmec conceptions 1-Lord was the principle day sign (1st day of the 52 year calendar round). It is noteworthy that the maya called the calendar round 'Hunab'... and the simple fact that Hunahpu, or Hun Ahau, translates directly to 1-Lord (like y'know, 1-TrueGod)

          that sums up the spiritual aspects of Hunab Ku
          as for the scientific...

          this is what 'professional astromomers' contend. the winter solstice sun can be said to align with the galactic center on any year from about 1982 - 2018. this is because, as you say Hoopes, "Galaxies move quite slowly in the grand scheme of things"... therefor the alignment serves for a number of years. So the maya had a window of 36ish years in which to get the alignment 'right'.
          since the long-count lasts 5125 years we divide 5125 by 36 to see the chances that the 2012 alignment is a mere accident

          this is about 1 in 142

          this is just the YEAR phenomena however. the fact that the DAY falls exactly on a winter solstice is perfect... perfect over a span of 3000 years from when the longcount originated. assuming this also was pure chance we figure 1 in 365.

          that the two chances, by chance, occur together we get 1 in about 52,000 (365 x 142 = 51,830)

          so by a purely random end-date you would have to have over 50-thousand cycles to find one to match the precision of the olmec/maya

          plus, the maya equation is more focused than the 36 year span from 1982 to 2018.

          the harmonic convergence (end of 22 calendar rounds (prophecy of 13heavens & 9hells)) occured in 1987; the long count ends in 2012

          this then describes a window of 25-26 years, narrowing down the 36.

          professional astronomers will tell you that the most precise winter solstice galactic alignment occured winter solstice 1998. (just days before the beginning of 1999)

          this occures right in the center of the two cycle endings, 12 - 13 years after Harmonic convergence and 14 years before the end of the long-count.
          now i ask you, were the creators of the long count onto something or simply the luckiest numerologists in 5200 years of history?

          did the maya know of a black hole at the center of the galaxy?

          Hoopes, you said yourself the milky way was conceptualized as a serpent with a prominent mouth
          to the maya a serpent's mouth was more than a simple anatomical feature of an animal, it was a metaphor for a threshold of transformation, a gateway into another world through which shamans travelled and ancestors were summoned
          modern scientists (eg. Carl Sagan) hypothesize that black holes are extra-dimensional doorways through spacetime.... termed worm-holes. the difference between the worm-hole and the serpent-mouth is linguistic, metaphorically they are identical

          i think you're a bit off when you say the maya considered the milky way to be 'the road to xibalba' (or Xibalba Be). The 'milky' part of the milky way was conceptualized as the Saq Be, or White/Spiritual Road. The Xibalba Be was the dark-rift of the milky way. It is significant that the dark rift (viewed from earth) leads right to the center of the galaxy where it ends... hence dark-rift = road to the underworld, or the serpent's mouth.

          this is stuff just off the top of my head. please do not underestimate the magic, scholarship, or spiritual strength of the maya... afterall *they* are *we*

          mitikuye oyasin
          namaste
          in lakech
          • Re: Hunab Ku

            Sat, August 19, 2006 - 5:02 AM
            I have just revived this thread due to a discovery while looking through a 1922 edition of Herbert J. Spinden's Ancient Civilizations of Mexico and Central America. On p.220, I found the "Hunab Ku symbol" in its rectangular form. It is exactly the same as the image shown In Jenkins' Maya Cosmogenesis 2012 on p.329 (even with the slight kinks in the border, though it is slightly larger). This time, it is shown in a horizontal position, rather than the vertical rectangle in MC2012.

            Under the picture it says, "Fig. 80. Mexican Blanket with the Design representing Sand and Water”

            The image appears in a chapter about the Aztecs, and in the text it says”…"The textile decorations in vogue at the coming of the Spaniards can be restored from the pictures in codices...”.

            Geoff
            • Re: Hunab Ku & the Maya

              Sat, August 19, 2006 - 11:43 AM
              With respect for the work represented here...

              It is important to understand the deeper elements of symbolism when looking at a symbol as profound as the "Hunab Ku". It is a composite of elements including spirals, 'steps', polarity, four/eight directions, symbols of ascension, and then the combining of these elements to create something far more. All the elements are already in other symbolism of much of the Americas, and all the elements can be seen carved in stone at various sacred sites around Mexico. Whether this symbol is of Mayan or other culture's origin is partly missing the point, because it is in the unification of the elements described that an important set of teachings is encoded, and the viewer is encouraged to find out more. It is a veritable 'medicine wheel' in itself.
              As Hunbatz teaches, the mantras and symbols are teachings. Ku'ku'lkan is a teaching about the duality, the number four, vibration and the serpent energy. It is much more than just a name. In the East there were the Kumara, another group of profound mantras, well known to Mayan esoteric folk...
              The word 'Maya' means Ma - meaning Mother, and Ya (from the verb Yaxche) meaning seperate from. As agreed by the meeting between Hunbatz and Tibetan Lamas, 'Maya' is a teaching in itself. It teaches about the 'illusion' of separation from the Mother. Hunbatz' research revealed the Cara Maya in Greece and the Naga Maya in India, and he asserts that the Maya were teachers in many places.
              In all the histories of esoteric art and symbolism, the initiates were taught about essential truths and then sent (or allowed) to visit places and structures where they would learn more. They would have to report back to the group/school/teacher on what they found. Some symbols were initiatory in themselves, and many who have meditated with stellae will testify to energies contained within stones.
              And what so many conveniently forget is that thousands of sacred texts, scrolls, even stellae, were deliberately destroyed by the Spanish and thousands of traditional peoples, their priests, shamans and elders, were murdered for nothing more than 'being Mayan'. How can anyone expect much information to survive and be available for examination now after so much destruction and genocide? And De Landa and his cronies baptised and murdered hundreds at a time, to the extent that De Landa was recalled to Spain, repented and then came back to Mexico to write (badly) about the people he helped to almost wipe out. It's like Julius Ceasar writing about the Druids, Hitler writing about the Jews, British missionaries writing about 'Africa', and colonial US people writing about Native Americans!

              As for the Maya and their connection to the rest of Mexican cultures, it is beyond doubt that the Olmec were inhabiting an area which extended at least from southern Guatemala up into areas of central Mexico. The sites that they constructed were even built upon by subsequent cultures. They came and went, as their given name actually signifies. The Maya inhabited the more southern area that the Olmec previously occupied, while other groups occupied other parts of what was also Olmec territory.
              There is much nonsense by the archeological posse about the Olmec, including that they had no metal which is contrdicted by the fact that they created such perfect sculptures in hard stone. I have seen un-oxidised metal found in an Olmec site showing very clearly that they did have metal and could easily have made tools for carving. And as the Olmec came and went, as artists they would never have dreamt of conveniently leaving their tools behind, for future archeologists to find! And this assertion of 'no metal' in the Americas is made more nonsense by the discovery of alloy metal clamps holding stones in Tihuanako in Bolivia, which can only have been made with molten ores. The astronomical dating of Tihuanako is pre-Ice Age.

              My point is that there is so much rubbish being written about and suggested by archeologists and anthropologists (mostly for the sake of 'funding'), that it is easy to miss the truth when sourcing information from such groups. An ex-paymaster general of INAH told me that there are huge warehouses the size of aircraft hangars (in Edo. de Mex.), full of millions of artifacts which may never be shown, often because they do not fit the consensus models. The recent excavations of huge pyramids (with tunnels) in Bosnia, will be part of the dismantling of some of the disinformation of the past, and will add to the excellent work of Hancock, Bauval, and others.
              With only 10% of Nah Chan (Palenque) excavated, how can anyone say that they 'know' about such an extensive site. There is a very long way to go before many such sites and their cultures are properly understood.

              It is well known in traditional groups in Mexico is that there were many sacred centres which were used by all the cultures.
              Malinalco has an Aztec temple site, but on the hills above is a huge unexcavated city which long predates the Aztec. The word 'malinalli' describes the 'serpent energy' and is an indication of the initiatory centre and its power. Various people have told me about how lords and priests from different cultures were trained there.
              Similarly there were places known to all the groups; places of initiations, specific ceremonies, big meetings, shamanistic training, priestly training. Xochicalco was a place of periodic meetings of peoples from all over the continent. It was like a 'U.N' of the Americas!
              Mexico was never a group of isolated cultures, competing with each other all the time, as some people suggest.

              And not all the peoples of the area always practised human sacrifice (as many of the archeo-bunch would have us all believe). It was the Aztec and the multi-cultural Toltec who got into all kinds of blood thirsty rituals. It was Moctezuma's Toltec beliefs (that maybe Cortes was the return of the prophet) which led him to betray his people by allowing the Spanish to see the Aztec defences. It was his Toltec beliefs which led him to be sacrificing 80,000 people a year to try to apease the 'Gods', and delay the coming prophesied 'Nine Hell Cycles', and it was this abuse of power which led Cortes to believe that his mission was a truly 'Holy' one. Cuahtemoc did not have the same beliefs and simply fought a 4 year guerilla war.
              Many Maya say that their culture did not do human sacrifice and this is a nasty lie by the invaders. The only cited archeo-evidence for it is a few bones at Chichen Itza cenote which do not make a whole skeleton and many of which are engraved, a mural at Bonampak showing decapitation during time of war, and a few other symbolic pictures. The Yucatan Maya of the tradition say they would never have put dead bodies in their only supply of drinking water, and thousands of years of living there testify to that fact. There were incidences of blood letting for specific reasons, and people died in times of war (the USA has 'sacrificed' millions in its short history, and continues to this day!). Yet the books and guides state categorically that the Maya were throwing young virgins into cenotes and much more speculative nonsense!

              What is certain is that during solstices and equinoxes, the thousands of sites across the region were full of ceremonial people, burning copal, chanting, dancing, playing music, etc and that this practice extended into the whole continent. Just imagine the intense energy of so many people celebrating simultaneously!
              And what is certain is that the many cultures were united by the knowledge that the Sun is a living being(s) and that to honour this giver of life is to honour life itself. Many of the sacred sites were also solar 'collectors' (Oxkintok for example). Hunbatz Men and others in Mexico teach about drawing solar energy into the body with the use of mantras and hand positions, just as was practised in other parts of the world.

              Please do not look for information about Mexican civilisations only in books and archeological papers. Truth is to be found on all levels and from all possible sources. How else can we make up for the loss of so much important text? Archeology will also become a spiritual pursuit, and will involve training in the receiving of information from elementals and 'spirits', as well as journeying in trance and out-of-body states. This will require students to be highly initiated and open to working in energy body states, as well as with altars and ceremony. There is more truth to be found outside of books, however valuable they are. It seems to me to be very important not to judge cultures by the available information, and not to draw many conclusions that are not confirmed with the people in the traditions now. They are mostly open to be consulted.

              And I say this with great respect for the dedication, time, and effort that so many have applied to the studies so far. Although incomplete, the body of knowledge is commendable.

              In Lak'ech