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MICHAEL BRUNTON
Ode
SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER 2009 ISSUE
The reason of faith
Religion isn’t easy, Karen Armstrong says: “You have to practice quite hard, like you do with any art form.”
Modern science knows how to fix a hole in the heart. It can diagnose a hole in the ozone layer and prove the existence of black holes at the edge of the universe.
But when it comes to explaining what's often described as the "God-shaped hole" in our lives, neither quantum physicists nor geneticists nor neuropsychologists appear to quite have the measure of it.
If anything, the rate of scientific advance in recent decades has only served to polarize religious debate. At one extreme is a resurgent atheism—epitomized by Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, who've both written best-selling books denouncing religious belief—which trusts that this hole, like every hole, will be filled in time by knowledge. At the other extreme is religious fundamentalism—epitomized by political spats over headscarves and creationism—which believes this hole is brimful of scriptural truth. For most of us in between, the hole in the soul gnaws away at our subconscious, like a hunger. And all of us, believers and non-believers alike, rush to fill the void with words.
One way or another, according to Karen Armstrong, "We talk far too much about God these days." Which might sound a bit rich coming from the English author of almost 20 books on religion as well as two memoirs about her becoming—and then unbecoming—a Catholic nun, who has been decked with religious prizes and who regularly lectures the high and mighty of church and state around the world. What's more, according to her new book The Case for God, the things we say when we do talk about religious faith are often "facile," "stupid" or "primitive." Ammunition, perhaps, for Armstrong's critics, of whom she has had her share, ever since her breakthrough book, A History of God, in 1993.
In that and the books that followed, Armstrong has traced the tangled roots of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, liberally reinterpreted the lives of Muhammad, Buddha and Jesus, and dived headlong into the maelstrom of theological debate around fundamentalism, both before and after 9/11. Some have criticized her idealistic interpretation of the Koran; religious academics berate her for shortcomings of scholarly rigor; atheists dismiss her for refusing to engage in debate on their terms.
Yet Armstrong's consistently eloquent arguments for compassion and commonality as an antidote to Islamophobia and the "clash of civilizations" have struck a chord, particularly in the U.S., where she has addressed both houses of Congress. She's also increasingly in demand on the lecture circuit in countries like Pakistan and Egypt, and is to be found on book stalls in 40 languages around the world. Drawing together the main threads of her previous research, The Case for God is Armstrong's most concise and practical-minded book yet: a historical survey of how rather than what we believe, where we lost the "knack" of religion and what we need to do to get it back.
"A lot of the arguments about religion going on at the moment spring from a rather inept understanding of religious truth," says Armstrong, settling into her theme and a winged easy chair in her early-Georgian home in north London. The furnishings and decoration suggest Jane Austen may have just stepped out of the room. Like Austen, and in a polished English accent, Armstrong is sharp-witted, quick to ridicule nonsense, and a good storyteller. "Our notion changed during the early modern period when we became convinced that the only path to any kind of truth was reason. That works beautifully for science but doesn't work so well for the humanities. Religion is really an art form and a struggle to find value and meaning amid the ghastly tragedy of human life."
Armstrong's The Case for God begins with the cave paintings of Lascaux in the French Dordogne, made some 17,000 years ago—seemingly religious art works in which the hunter assuages his unease at killing his prey through shamanic rituals in honor of the Animal Master. Such myths were born because, Armstrong writes, "As meaning-seeking creatures, men and women fall very easily into despair. They have created religions and works of art to help them find value in their lives, despite all the dispiriting evidence to the contrary."
From that point on, the religious impulse took the form of creation myths like Tao and Brahman from the East, on through the gods of ancient Greece and eventually the emergence of the world's three main monotheisms—Judaism, Christianity and Islam—and their founding scriptures. But none of them, says Armstrong, were meant to be taken literally. "The cosmology of the ancient world was telling you about the nature of life here and now. Genesis is not about the origins of life. There were many other creation stories current in Israel at that time and no one was required to believe in that one."
Reason, science and logic—what the Greeks called "logos"—were also evolving as ways of understanding the world, but always in concert, not competition, with the stories—the mythos—they relied on to deal with the mysteries of the human psyche. Pythagoras, for example, a founding father of mathematics and astronomy, sought the geometric truth of the universe from within a religious community dedicated to Apollo and the Muses. He also called himself a philosopher and expected his students to lead an ascetic and monastic kind of life, undergoing rites of purification and silence "in a search," Armstrong writes, "for transcendence and a dedicated, practical lifestyle."
In conversation, Armstrong spins the threads of her research with agile, unhesitating precision, leaping across centuries of scripture, philosophy and theology. She dissects the writings of Denys the Areopagite, the pseudonymous 5th-to-6th-century Christian theologian; explains the roots of Greek words like pistis (faith); pauses to unpick the purpose of Socratic dialogue or the classical atheism of Ludwig Feuerbach, the 19th-century German philosopher and proto-Marxist.
But through all the twists and turns, the notion of transcendence is the one she returns to time and again as the beating heart of all pre-modern theology. "The idea was that when we spoke about God we were speaking of something that lies beyond words," says Armstrong. "People like Thomas Aquinas would say we can't talk about God as a creator because we can only have in our heads the idea of a human creator and that can't apply to God. We can't even say that God exists because our notion of existence is too limited to apply to God. People were instructed to think about this in those terms."
In Armstrong's scheme of things, it was with the dawning of the Age of Reason that the problems started. As philosophers and mathematicians both, Descartes and then Newton well understood that science and religion—logos and mythos—were discrete realms in the search for universal truth. But when the foundation for modern science was laid, the conceptual nature of truth itself began to blur.
"Newton and Descartes started to try and prove that God existed in the same way as they would try and prove something in the laboratory or with their mathematics," says Armstrong. "And when you try and mix science and religion you get bad science and bad religion. The two are doing two different things. ... Science can give you a diagnosis of cancer. It can even cure your disease, but it cannot touch your grief and disappointment, nor can it help you to die well."
Newton seeded not only the idea that God was reducible, says Armstrong, but also that understanding religion would be easy. So easy that by 1900, the German mathematician David Hilbert could confidently assert that precisely 23 problems remained to be solved in order to complete the Newtonian view of the universe. More than a century later, few of us can even comprehend those problems, let alone calculate the answers or grasp the significance of all the things we've learned since. Worse, as our theories about the universe grow ever more abstract, a sense of bewilderment is replacing the sense of transcendence. "It's not easy to talk about transcendence, just as it's not easy to play or listen to a late Beethoven quartet," says Armstrong. "You have to practice quite hard, like you do with any art form. Religion is hard work."
And as with great art, the realization that God defies understanding can be a source of the profoundest joy. For Einstein that sense of the existence of something impenetrable was, as he wrote in a 1930 essay, "the sower of all true art and science" and "the centre of all true religiousness." Armstrong herself calls this experience "the stunned appreciation of an otherness"—a state she says she can occasionally glimpse in the long, silent and solitary hours of study that fuel her writing.
In her studies, Armstrong, at 64, now finds what countless hours of obligatory prayer as an unhappy Catholic nun in her teenage years had flatly failed to bring into focus. Suffering a lost vocation and physically frail, she considered her eventual departure from the convent in 1969 as a relief of sorts. But coming to terms with the world outside and the God she'd left behind triggered a profound spiritual trauma. After a diagnosis of epilepsy and disastrous spells teaching at a university, Armstrong's convalescence proper began in 1981—it's still underway, she says—when she poured her pain into a memoir of her convent days, Through the Narrow Gate. A second volume Beginning the World related her adjustment to the outside world, but Armstrong later recanted it because of the false heartiness she'd adopted to satisfy both her publisher and her own delusion of contentment.
In fact, Armstrong's adjustment wasn't going well, and a brief spell as an erudite but pungently skeptical presenter of religious TV programs in the U.K.—egged on by the producers, she claims, to say ever more outrageous things—did little to help matters. But in the course of that work, Armstrong found herself drawn back to the theological texts underpinning the monotheistic religions and to what they really mean. To do that, says Armstrong, "I had to put my clever, post-Enlightenment, Oxford-educated, aggressively logos self on the back burner, and enter into the mind of someone like Muhammad, who believed he'd been touched by God. Because if I didn't sympathetically and compassionately feel with him, I would miss the essence of it and just write another clever riposte."
A report by the Pew Forum, a U.S. research body on religion and public life, recently painted a startling picture of religious faith in America. About half the population appears to have changed religious affiliation at least once, while the number of believers unaffiliated with any particular faith is rising faster than those of any of religion. Yet more than half of those who grow up unaffiliated later choose to join one. Of the reasons people give for this restlessness, far more cite disenchantment with their religious institutions than a loss of faith per se.
Across Europe, in contrast, while many still identify with a religious denomination, Pew's Global Attitudes Project report last year showed that only a fraction value religion as "very important" in their lives, compared to America, where 55 percent consider it so. In secular-minded France, only 10 percent take that view. Even in traditionally Catholic Spain, the figure is only 19 percent. Among young Europeans, religion's importance appears to be still on the wane. That's somewhat true in America, although 49 percent of adults under 40 value it like their parents and grandparents do, while in places like Egypt (69 percent), Turkey (88 percent) and Pakistan (95 percent), many more young people are keeping the faith.
That longing for spiritual uplift and communion, along with the sense of being let down, have no doubt driven the popularity of New Age beliefs in the U.S. and elsewhere in recent decades. It may also have contributed to the rise in eco-consciousness and the emergence of a "Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability" (LOHAS) demographic, said to include some 40 million people in the U.S., socially responsible green consumers interested in spiritually tinged practices like alternative medicine and personal development.
Armstrong for one isn't surprised at these shifts. "We—the British and the northern Europeans—are beginning to look endearingly old-fashioned in our secularism. The rest of the world is becoming more religious." But while God-centered religion may not own the copyright on transcendence, she warns, "None of it is of any value unless you translate it into practical compassionate action for others. In Buddhism, yoga is properly about the dismantling of egotism; if you just do these things to lose weight or to get a warm glow, that's not religion."
For Armstrong, it's compassion that's the defining virtue of religion, the Golden Rule articulated by Confucius two and a half millennia ago as "Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you." Practicing compassion is, she says, a form of "ethical artistry" that requires the dethroning of ego—a virtue, Armstrong believes, that's alive and well for the majority of the faithful in all religions, but one often singularly lacking in the higher echelons of the various faiths she addresses.
Last year, that message earned Armstrong a prize from the TED Foundation, a nonprofit dedicated to fostering big ideas, allowing Armstrong to promote a Charter for Compassion that aims to get religious leaders to commit to a program of compassionate principles (see sidebar). For some religious commentators, like the U.S. rabbi Brad Hirschfield, the Charter amounts to little more than "a ‘Kumbaya' moment" for "a world filled with hate-driven faith." Armstrong disagrees, believing the abundant supply of compassion among religious communities the world over will win out. She does have a poor opinion of religious committees though, and admits she was nervous before the first meeting of the high-profile, multifaith, multinational body convened to draw up the Charter. Until, that is, the first speaker got up and said, "We must include a sentence saying that we, that religious people, have failed." Everyone agreed, nodding, says Armstrong with a grin. "As soon as I heard that, I thought, ‘We're going to be all right.'"
Michael Brunton is a writer living in London who agrees with Voltaire on the necessity of god and gardening.
MICHAEL BRUNTON
Ode
SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER 2009 ISSUE
The reason of faith
Religion isn’t easy, Karen Armstrong says: “You have to practice quite hard, like you do with any art form.”
Modern science knows how to fix a hole in the heart. It can diagnose a hole in the ozone layer and prove the existence of black holes at the edge of the universe.
But when it comes to explaining what's often described as the "God-shaped hole" in our lives, neither quantum physicists nor geneticists nor neuropsychologists appear to quite have the measure of it.
If anything, the rate of scientific advance in recent decades has only served to polarize religious debate. At one extreme is a resurgent atheism—epitomized by Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, who've both written best-selling books denouncing religious belief—which trusts that this hole, like every hole, will be filled in time by knowledge. At the other extreme is religious fundamentalism—epitomized by political spats over headscarves and creationism—which believes this hole is brimful of scriptural truth. For most of us in between, the hole in the soul gnaws away at our subconscious, like a hunger. And all of us, believers and non-believers alike, rush to fill the void with words.
One way or another, according to Karen Armstrong, "We talk far too much about God these days." Which might sound a bit rich coming from the English author of almost 20 books on religion as well as two memoirs about her becoming—and then unbecoming—a Catholic nun, who has been decked with religious prizes and who regularly lectures the high and mighty of church and state around the world. What's more, according to her new book The Case for God, the things we say when we do talk about religious faith are often "facile," "stupid" or "primitive." Ammunition, perhaps, for Armstrong's critics, of whom she has had her share, ever since her breakthrough book, A History of God, in 1993.
In that and the books that followed, Armstrong has traced the tangled roots of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, liberally reinterpreted the lives of Muhammad, Buddha and Jesus, and dived headlong into the maelstrom of theological debate around fundamentalism, both before and after 9/11. Some have criticized her idealistic interpretation of the Koran; religious academics berate her for shortcomings of scholarly rigor; atheists dismiss her for refusing to engage in debate on their terms.
Yet Armstrong's consistently eloquent arguments for compassion and commonality as an antidote to Islamophobia and the "clash of civilizations" have struck a chord, particularly in the U.S., where she has addressed both houses of Congress. She's also increasingly in demand on the lecture circuit in countries like Pakistan and Egypt, and is to be found on book stalls in 40 languages around the world. Drawing together the main threads of her previous research, The Case for God is Armstrong's most concise and practical-minded book yet: a historical survey of how rather than what we believe, where we lost the "knack" of religion and what we need to do to get it back.
"A lot of the arguments about religion going on at the moment spring from a rather inept understanding of religious truth," says Armstrong, settling into her theme and a winged easy chair in her early-Georgian home in north London. The furnishings and decoration suggest Jane Austen may have just stepped out of the room. Like Austen, and in a polished English accent, Armstrong is sharp-witted, quick to ridicule nonsense, and a good storyteller. "Our notion changed during the early modern period when we became convinced that the only path to any kind of truth was reason. That works beautifully for science but doesn't work so well for the humanities. Religion is really an art form and a struggle to find value and meaning amid the ghastly tragedy of human life."
Armstrong's The Case for God begins with the cave paintings of Lascaux in the French Dordogne, made some 17,000 years ago—seemingly religious art works in which the hunter assuages his unease at killing his prey through shamanic rituals in honor of the Animal Master. Such myths were born because, Armstrong writes, "As meaning-seeking creatures, men and women fall very easily into despair. They have created religions and works of art to help them find value in their lives, despite all the dispiriting evidence to the contrary."
From that point on, the religious impulse took the form of creation myths like Tao and Brahman from the East, on through the gods of ancient Greece and eventually the emergence of the world's three main monotheisms—Judaism, Christianity and Islam—and their founding scriptures. But none of them, says Armstrong, were meant to be taken literally. "The cosmology of the ancient world was telling you about the nature of life here and now. Genesis is not about the origins of life. There were many other creation stories current in Israel at that time and no one was required to believe in that one."
Reason, science and logic—what the Greeks called "logos"—were also evolving as ways of understanding the world, but always in concert, not competition, with the stories—the mythos—they relied on to deal with the mysteries of the human psyche. Pythagoras, for example, a founding father of mathematics and astronomy, sought the geometric truth of the universe from within a religious community dedicated to Apollo and the Muses. He also called himself a philosopher and expected his students to lead an ascetic and monastic kind of life, undergoing rites of purification and silence "in a search," Armstrong writes, "for transcendence and a dedicated, practical lifestyle."
In conversation, Armstrong spins the threads of her research with agile, unhesitating precision, leaping across centuries of scripture, philosophy and theology. She dissects the writings of Denys the Areopagite, the pseudonymous 5th-to-6th-century Christian theologian; explains the roots of Greek words like pistis (faith); pauses to unpick the purpose of Socratic dialogue or the classical atheism of Ludwig Feuerbach, the 19th-century German philosopher and proto-Marxist.
But through all the twists and turns, the notion of transcendence is the one she returns to time and again as the beating heart of all pre-modern theology. "The idea was that when we spoke about God we were speaking of something that lies beyond words," says Armstrong. "People like Thomas Aquinas would say we can't talk about God as a creator because we can only have in our heads the idea of a human creator and that can't apply to God. We can't even say that God exists because our notion of existence is too limited to apply to God. People were instructed to think about this in those terms."
In Armstrong's scheme of things, it was with the dawning of the Age of Reason that the problems started. As philosophers and mathematicians both, Descartes and then Newton well understood that science and religion—logos and mythos—were discrete realms in the search for universal truth. But when the foundation for modern science was laid, the conceptual nature of truth itself began to blur.
"Newton and Descartes started to try and prove that God existed in the same way as they would try and prove something in the laboratory or with their mathematics," says Armstrong. "And when you try and mix science and religion you get bad science and bad religion. The two are doing two different things. ... Science can give you a diagnosis of cancer. It can even cure your disease, but it cannot touch your grief and disappointment, nor can it help you to die well."
Newton seeded not only the idea that God was reducible, says Armstrong, but also that understanding religion would be easy. So easy that by 1900, the German mathematician David Hilbert could confidently assert that precisely 23 problems remained to be solved in order to complete the Newtonian view of the universe. More than a century later, few of us can even comprehend those problems, let alone calculate the answers or grasp the significance of all the things we've learned since. Worse, as our theories about the universe grow ever more abstract, a sense of bewilderment is replacing the sense of transcendence. "It's not easy to talk about transcendence, just as it's not easy to play or listen to a late Beethoven quartet," says Armstrong. "You have to practice quite hard, like you do with any art form. Religion is hard work."
And as with great art, the realization that God defies understanding can be a source of the profoundest joy. For Einstein that sense of the existence of something impenetrable was, as he wrote in a 1930 essay, "the sower of all true art and science" and "the centre of all true religiousness." Armstrong herself calls this experience "the stunned appreciation of an otherness"—a state she says she can occasionally glimpse in the long, silent and solitary hours of study that fuel her writing.
In her studies, Armstrong, at 64, now finds what countless hours of obligatory prayer as an unhappy Catholic nun in her teenage years had flatly failed to bring into focus. Suffering a lost vocation and physically frail, she considered her eventual departure from the convent in 1969 as a relief of sorts. But coming to terms with the world outside and the God she'd left behind triggered a profound spiritual trauma. After a diagnosis of epilepsy and disastrous spells teaching at a university, Armstrong's convalescence proper began in 1981—it's still underway, she says—when she poured her pain into a memoir of her convent days, Through the Narrow Gate. A second volume Beginning the World related her adjustment to the outside world, but Armstrong later recanted it because of the false heartiness she'd adopted to satisfy both her publisher and her own delusion of contentment.
In fact, Armstrong's adjustment wasn't going well, and a brief spell as an erudite but pungently skeptical presenter of religious TV programs in the U.K.—egged on by the producers, she claims, to say ever more outrageous things—did little to help matters. But in the course of that work, Armstrong found herself drawn back to the theological texts underpinning the monotheistic religions and to what they really mean. To do that, says Armstrong, "I had to put my clever, post-Enlightenment, Oxford-educated, aggressively logos self on the back burner, and enter into the mind of someone like Muhammad, who believed he'd been touched by God. Because if I didn't sympathetically and compassionately feel with him, I would miss the essence of it and just write another clever riposte."
A report by the Pew Forum, a U.S. research body on religion and public life, recently painted a startling picture of religious faith in America. About half the population appears to have changed religious affiliation at least once, while the number of believers unaffiliated with any particular faith is rising faster than those of any of religion. Yet more than half of those who grow up unaffiliated later choose to join one. Of the reasons people give for this restlessness, far more cite disenchantment with their religious institutions than a loss of faith per se.
Across Europe, in contrast, while many still identify with a religious denomination, Pew's Global Attitudes Project report last year showed that only a fraction value religion as "very important" in their lives, compared to America, where 55 percent consider it so. In secular-minded France, only 10 percent take that view. Even in traditionally Catholic Spain, the figure is only 19 percent. Among young Europeans, religion's importance appears to be still on the wane. That's somewhat true in America, although 49 percent of adults under 40 value it like their parents and grandparents do, while in places like Egypt (69 percent), Turkey (88 percent) and Pakistan (95 percent), many more young people are keeping the faith.
That longing for spiritual uplift and communion, along with the sense of being let down, have no doubt driven the popularity of New Age beliefs in the U.S. and elsewhere in recent decades. It may also have contributed to the rise in eco-consciousness and the emergence of a "Lifestyles of Health and Sustainability" (LOHAS) demographic, said to include some 40 million people in the U.S., socially responsible green consumers interested in spiritually tinged practices like alternative medicine and personal development.
Armstrong for one isn't surprised at these shifts. "We—the British and the northern Europeans—are beginning to look endearingly old-fashioned in our secularism. The rest of the world is becoming more religious." But while God-centered religion may not own the copyright on transcendence, she warns, "None of it is of any value unless you translate it into practical compassionate action for others. In Buddhism, yoga is properly about the dismantling of egotism; if you just do these things to lose weight or to get a warm glow, that's not religion."
For Armstrong, it's compassion that's the defining virtue of religion, the Golden Rule articulated by Confucius two and a half millennia ago as "Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you." Practicing compassion is, she says, a form of "ethical artistry" that requires the dethroning of ego—a virtue, Armstrong believes, that's alive and well for the majority of the faithful in all religions, but one often singularly lacking in the higher echelons of the various faiths she addresses.
Last year, that message earned Armstrong a prize from the TED Foundation, a nonprofit dedicated to fostering big ideas, allowing Armstrong to promote a Charter for Compassion that aims to get religious leaders to commit to a program of compassionate principles (see sidebar). For some religious commentators, like the U.S. rabbi Brad Hirschfield, the Charter amounts to little more than "a ‘Kumbaya' moment" for "a world filled with hate-driven faith." Armstrong disagrees, believing the abundant supply of compassion among religious communities the world over will win out. She does have a poor opinion of religious committees though, and admits she was nervous before the first meeting of the high-profile, multifaith, multinational body convened to draw up the Charter. Until, that is, the first speaker got up and said, "We must include a sentence saying that we, that religious people, have failed." Everyone agreed, nodding, says Armstrong with a grin. "As soon as I heard that, I thought, ‘We're going to be all right.'"
Michael Brunton is a writer living in London who agrees with Voltaire on the necessity of god and gardening.
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 10:44 AM"None of it is of any value unless you translate it into practical compassionate action for others. In Buddhism, yoga is properly about the dismantling of egotism; if you just do these things to lose weight or to get a warm glow, that's not religion."
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 10:55 AM -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 1:20 PMThanks Wil :-)
It would be nice if it could work.
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Thu, November 5, 2009 - 11:43 AMEven Karl Marx attempted to get in on the act.
The idea of the first to be last and the last to be first is a recurring theme in most religions. Where the master becomes the servant of all. I personally, believe that this is the first true and most important law of any society that wishes to really succeed.
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 7:56 AMI learned a long time ago in psychology class that religion (whether it is real or not) breeds a society to be better in it's form... And looking through history, any society that uses religion reinforce morals, but does that show that religion is a truth? You can teach the same morals to a group of children and they can grow up 'not' believing in a god or soul and still go on to be successful in life and not end up in prison or end up being a rapist of killer... And if anything, these same children that grow up 'not' believing in gods or religion tend to be more rational in their thoughts and more stable in their life through 'not' believing in something that one cannot show proof of.
Humanity is a very poetic kind and man is very vindictive in that he wants people who do wrong to be punished, even after death (like death itself wasn't enough). So if you look at most religions, vindictiveness is a major flaw to begin with in the "why" you believe (because of an afterlife) which is another fact that religion shows... Greediness... Man wants to believe that an afterlife is in store for him and wants to live forever. Man isn't just happy to live his life then perish so he writes beautiful poetry explaining the possibilities of angels, Gods and an afterlife as a 'prize' for being a good person in this life... Even in the religions that accept reincarnation is a firm belief in greediness...
Think about it, if religion was invented by man and poetry used throughout history to write all the beautiful things that make people think there is a God and a soul, then religion would be as it is now, many different versions of it without any proof throughout history... But think if there was really a God that had your best interests in mind, do you really think he would do things as have been done? I mean really if he were a God that had your best interest in mind would he 'show' you proof and give you more hope to believe then what religion does now? I mean an all knowing God that has no flaws, wouldn't allow his only son to be murdered by the people he is trying to save??? I mean that is just ridiculous to think that a God would do things as supposed throughout the history of mankind... Just think about it for a minute what I'm saying... And why would there be the same God for all these different religions? Wouldn't this so called God bring everyone together into one group? This would be the logical thing, even in a mans viewpoint and he isn't even close to being a God... So why would an all-endearing God make so many suffer in his name?
Man has a beautiful poetic manner and it's my belief that man has written all the religious matter on his so called Gods throughout history, wait a minute, he has written it all. The only thing I've even seen in books that say that a God actually wrote was the "Ten Commandments" and even then we don't have any proof... Why would a God that wants us to believe, not show us definitive proof? That would be the easiest way to get his people to straighten us and live right? Why wouldn't this God want us to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he existed and wanted the best for us? I'll tell you why, because it's all been written by man and his poetic imagination, to "give" hope even without proof. To feed that hunger that can't be filled because his God "WON"T" give this proof because he just doesn't exist...
I know that there are lots of people here that are religious but these same people think that if you aren't religious that you are damned and can't smile or enjoy life just because you don't believe in a god. But let me tell you something, I've been most happy since I have looked at life this way and I don't believe in the Gods that man writes about! I feel I am better off not fighting wars and sending people to their death in that name of a God! (I mean, why would a God want his people to die?) I feel better off not believing in something that can't be proven (I always thought that the little kid that had a make-believe friend was alright when he was small but to bring these make-believe friends into adulthood just didn't have a place)...
Man creates some beautiful work but that isn't proof of his God but I can't complain until the religion he uses go and starts a war in the name of his God while the person he is going to war against is fighting in the name of his God too! In this instance, someone’s God isn't real, or maybe neither of these Gods is real if you really think about it...
I don't want to change anyone from their beliefs right now I'm just saying that this is how I feel and just because I don't believe in your Gods anymore doesn't mean that I'm not any less happy in my life, on the contrary, I feel better than I ever have in my life and I can concentrate on improving my life through myself and not through fantasy of something that "Might" be... If I can be happy by just "being" in the now then I feel better than banking on something that seems like it was all just manmade to make the majority of people feel better about themselves at the cost of the lives of others!
This faith that people use to fill the hole, the hole is created by the faith itself then the faith feels justified in filling this hole... Kind of a catch 22 but in psychology if you cut out the reason for the hole in the first place then you won't have a need to fill that hole...
Peace and love to all...
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 8:13 AMthanks for the thoughtful post. I'll read it again. It certainly makes me think of the good and the bad influences that religion has been in our lives as a race. -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 12:42 PMI hope nobody gets me wrong... I do feel that there is a need for religion in culture...
I just feel that once you are old enough to choose, that you be afforded the opportunity to the right of the 'Freedom of Religion' without anyone beating you down for whatever religion you choose and I think that children shouldn't be forced into religion and that when they get old enough, be taught all the religious material out there and leave it too each individual to decide which way to go once they have enough intelligence to decide for themselves... Now that would be the way to operate ALL religions and is what I strive for...
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 1:04 PM"Religion is really an art form and a struggle to find value and meaning amid the ghastly tragedy of human life."
&
"As meaning-seeking creatures, men and women fall very easily into despair. They have created religions and works of art to help them find value in their lives, despite all the dispiriting evidence to the contrary."
And then this statement from your post...
"For Armstrong, it's compassion that's the defining virtue of religion, the Golden Rule articulated by Confucius two and a half millennia ago as "Never do to others what you would not like them to do to you." Practicing compassion is, she says, a form of "ethical artistry" that requires the dethroning of ego—a virtue, Armstrong believes, that's alive and well for the majority of the faithful in all religions, but one often singularly lacking in the higher echelons of the various faiths she addresses."
Why does one think that applying these morals to oneself, constitute faith? I can live with morals without being religious or faithful...
I adhere to a lot of beliefs handed down by lots of spiritual figures throughout history and I believe these teachings can make you a better person but that still doesn't mean I have to believe in a God or in a particular religion... But other than that, I think I'd like to meet Karen Armstrong... She seems familiarly intelligent and I think would bring on a great conversation in all her knowledge.
Good post Will Beat Hippie Raver's (grin:)... -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 6:10 PM"... And if anything, these same children that grow up 'not' believing in gods or religion tend to be more rational in their thoughts and more stable in their life through 'not' believing in something that one cannot show proof of. "
I mentioned Karl Marx with intention, or maybe I should mention Stalin or Moa.
Communism is as much a religion as any other in the world past. The American worship of the god money and the way it has leached it's way into almost every corner of the world. Neither allows anything to pass from this world and it is to these that "Greed is good!".
You mentioned greed when referring to those who practice religion, it is my experience that religion tries to teach people the opposite. Catholics appear to be getting a hard time at the moment, I suppose it's because the Jews are off limits and the Muslims can be a bit aggressive, the catholics are a good target. But when I look at the people who are inspirational to catholics, they are people who have abandoned wealth and power to take up a life of servitude.
I watched a program on TV last night that had a quick skit on religion and the promotion of JESUS posters across the country by the three major christian religions and I was saddened to see that they decided to take the piss out of this advertisement by redoing the add to show the catholic faith as more satanic and fascist.
I was raised a catholic, but left the religion when I turned fifteen for personal reasons. I have known people from most of the main religions and read most of the books. My friends throughout my life have come from both sexes and sexual persuasion, from a variety of cultures and ethnic backgrounds. I have known people who have claimed themselves Communist and others who have claimed themselves truly spiritual and on a first name basis with the angelic presence and you know something, no one is what they tell themselves and others what they really are.
I've died and been to the other side and as a result have had some interesting and UNEXPLAINABLE experiences. I know other people who also have had this experience. There have been people throughout history who have had first hand, slap in the face kind of proof of an afterlife, extra terrestrial and extra dimensional presence. There are people who, although they have held no position or rank and had no money at all, were sought out by kings and queens for their wisdom.
Very recently in Texas at an army base a man of faith who practiced the healing arts was ordered to go to the land of his ancestors as part of an occupying force. He rebelled and that action made news around the world. People will concentrate on his Muslim faith and his name as being an excuse to clamp down on religion. But will anyone think for a moment that the people of rank who refused to take into account his circumstances should be held culpable?
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 6:12 PMA final word on this. It is hard enough for a person of faith to accept the frightening aspect of life beyond this one. It is even harder for one who is too frightened to have faith. -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 7:34 PMThanks! I have come to know over my years of life experiences that the here and now are abundantly sufficient if and when we let them be!
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Fri, November 6, 2009 - 8:44 PM> You mentioned greed when referring to those who practice religion, it is my experience that religion tries to teach people the opposite. <
Yeah, I did... I know that religion 'tries' to teach this concept but I can't count anyone that is religious that doesn't think about living an afterlife and not try to be a better person in this life so that he will live an afterlife. The whole concept is based on a form of greed. Otherwise you wouldn't care what happened after you died.
I'm saying that a person is really humble if...
1. He doesn't expect to live an afterlife but still does well above and beyond what is expected as a good person in this life
2. He doesn't try to do good just so that he'll be able to live forever in an afterlife
Both these points are forms of greed that if taken in context of a perfect deity, would be looked at as greed...
The church uses this to control people into being good out of greed. Can you not see that? In a psychological point of view it's perfectly clear.
I'm guessing that is where nuns showing their faith and devotion play out as being humble but they still 'expect' their everlasting life to be with their God that promises them an afterlife so even in that respect one could say that the 'greed' of life is used in religion, more in some and less in others but still there in it's presence.
What is precious is a child that does well out of the goodness of their heart and not for any other reason but that it makes them happy. That's what some would say is true religion but I say that the child that has never been taught any religion in his life and still does a kind act as in the example above, is pure love and has nothing to do with religion, sorry, all that is good, religion doesn't have a patent on it. Yet I can see so many 'manipulations' in so many religions that almost 95% of all religions I study should be considered 'cults' in my eyes... Just the way I see it and it's easy to see if you aren't Bias.
Ok let me explain it this way, if you are being nice to me just so that you can go to heaven and live forever then you being nice to me is just an 'act' and isn't genuine! Now the child that doesn't even know of a God and still is nice to me, that is a genuine emotion and in the present tense of right now when it happened, I can feel the consciousness of that love being emitted from that child in his act and that is wonderful and worth sharing with other people in my life but the fact that someone is nice to me for an instance just so that he can be admitted into his heaven and live forever, well I could care less about this person and there is no consciousness or intelligence in the interaction... Sorry but just the way I see it and the way I feel and I'm not a God but I've heard that it's not that easy to be admitted into heaven and a God that is that picky would look at it the way I'm describing it or even more to an exactness than what I'm trying to explain... So yeah, in that context, I can say that wanting to live an eternal life and being good for that reason is greedy and not a very likable trait in being an attribute of gaining that oh so allusive ticket to the afterlife, if you get what I mean... -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 12:10 AMI get what you mean.
Payback. Torturers have played that game since the beginning of time. "If you tell me what I want to know, I'll keep you alive for a moment more." That sort of thing.
When I lost my faith, I lost everything as you could probably understand. But I had died and had come back. I had experienced extra dimensional visitations that had proven their substance. It was the religious teachers who had failed me, so my search was to prove to myself what was the reality of life. I have done that to the satisfaction of my soul.
As with ET experiencers, spiritual experiencers tell similar stories around the world reaching way back into the history of the world to times before there was contact with the other cultures. Crop circles for example are described in ancient Irish lore and depicted in Celtic art. There are some that are easily explained as hoaxes, but there are others that cannot.
There are medical miracles around the world where the person should be either dead or seriously incapacitated, but they have university degrees and are doing fine thank you very much.
God is a term. Nothing more. It can be the universe itself and I believe, that it has sentience. To truly try and conceive FOREVER or Nothing is truly a herculean challenge and one that I certainly am not up to. We can draw graphs and calculate the extent of the universe, but in reality, we're just wanking big time when we say we KNOW what is out there and that we know what the universe is and how old it is, because frankly, even the scientists have to believe. they have to take that leap of faith, especially when machines like the Hubble space telescope throws all their calculations right out the window.
Greed of life everlasting does not come into it for spiritual people. This is as real as waking up in the morning for them. They will live forever, they know this and it is not a pay off for doing their religious duty. They do what they do because they want to. They want to because it pleases their God who gave them the opportunity to live this life and they are really, really grateful. They've been payed up-front for their religious lives. So when someone who is not religious in any way and does not believe in an afterlife or the teachings of Buddha or Jesus or Mohammad, gets really chummy with you and goes over the top for you, then there's someone you need to ask "Why are you doing this?" -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 6:47 AMI see where you are coming from and good response.
The last paragraph I do want to comment about tho.
>>Greed of life everlasting does not come into it for spiritual people. This is as real as waking up in the morning for them. They will live forever, they know this and it is not a pay off for doing their religious duty. They do what they do because they want to. They want to because it pleases their God who gave them the opportunity to live this life and they are really, really grateful. They've been payed up-front for their religious lives. <<
I can see in some 'spiritual' people that by them being the way they are comes natually to them but in the beginning they most likely weren't this way to begin with or maybe they were but in most cases they learned to be this way to achieve this everlasting gift of life and it became second nature to them, thus why I said that it is a tool of the religious sect to make people "good" in nature and that religion is good for society and I don't knock it and I've even for it.
>>So when someone who is not religious in any way and does not believe in an afterlife or the teachings of Buddha or Jesus or Mohammad, gets really chummy with you and goes over the top for you, then there's someone you need to ask "Why are you doing this?"
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Hum, I wonder the same thing about religious fanatics who want to talk to me. I ask the same question, "Why are you doing this?" (grin)... I know what you are saying though, more times than not, if someone does something for you for no apparent reason you do have to wonder, "Why?" (No matter if they are religious or not!) But that's not to say that someone can't do that and in todays society most people can't accept that and do ask , why?
I'm just saying that I do these thing for people and sometimes they question my motives and in just the pure facts that it brightens my day or brings a smile to someones face is enough for me because I live for the moment and not for the afterlife like so many do for that reason... I do it because it makes the person I'm helping out a little bit happier and in that reason in todays society there is enough hate and deception that a little happines from a stranger can be the difference between life and death to many.
I remember when I was a kid and someone I didn't know did something for me without any expectation... It always put a smile on my face and I didn't question it, I just knew that person was not the average person that I felt good because of this person. I didn't know any better and in todays world there are child molesters, people that want to take all your money and hundreds of other things but that only makes it even more special to do something for someone without any expecations and just to do it to make someone smile :)... And I do this not for an afterlife but to make the world just a little better and this IS the point I'm trying to make, in a society today, you can't just do something to make the world feel better without being questioned about it! That IS what's wrong with the world, not enought people to show compassion and give just so that this world can be a better place to live for not just the people we love but for for even those people we don't know and if more people would see this, then this world wouldn't be in the shape it is in!
You shouldn't be doing these things so that you will live an eternal life after you are dead, but to do these things so that while we are alive we all live better lives now! That's is what life is all about anyways, isn't it? To be happy in the now but too many people are too worried about when they will be dead and not worry about rioght now and how the other person feels. I do believe 99% of the population to be greedy and self centered and religion captilaizes on that fact... It may be a good thing but they still use cult like tactics to manipulate people in different ways and it can't be denied, it's a documented process... Take Christianity, evn Catholocism, preaches a hell that you will burn in if you don't believe in that particular sect! In the hebrew scriptures, the word hell was mis translated into the firey pit that we will burn in, in the scripture hell was a place in the ground where they stored their potatoes and this is documented and the poets of the Bible have distorted these facts to manipulate people into their way of thinking... And so many more examples of the Bible and manipulation, sorry but the truths are out there and ask any Biblical counsellor about this, & witness first-hand the phenomenon described in Isaiah 29:9-11. "The learned will not be able to explain it." -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 3:08 PMAgree. Especially about the manipulation of historical facts.
The scene in the new testament which has been used to promote anti-semitism takes place in a courtyard with the Roman Governor Pontius Pilot and two "criminals".
Who were these two people other than what we're told by the spin doctors?
I've mentioned Virgin Birth before and how it meant at that time "First born" This meant that the man Jesus was the elder brother and in line for the throne of David, if only the claim could be made legitimately. He was therefore not a nobody from the one donkey town of Nazareth, but to use an Americanism, a Kennedy. With all the wealth and position that entails...except the throne. That had been handed to a warlord called Herod by the roman named Marcus Antonius. Not too unsimiliar to what has happened with places like Afghanistan.
His mother went on to have other children, including James who would become the High priest when his brother attained the Crown.
It is a possibility as I see it after reading the heavily edited text, that the two men with Pilot that day were these two brothers and as stated, were criminals in the eyes of the state.
My last name is O'Neill. Roughly translated to English, it means Son of (descendant of) Nail of the nine hostages, High King of Ireland.
If we take the person who stands on the other side of Pilot on that day, a man called Bar Abbas and do the same thing, it changes the whole dynamics of the scene.
While translating the text into Latin, with every word except the changing of Bar Abbas to it's real intended meaning and leaving it as a name, we have a scene where the crowd is divided into two groups, the good guys on the side of Jesus, the Messiah and potential King of the Jews and the cohorts of the evil Barabbas who is the leader of a band of rebels.
The name when translated means Son of The Father, which can easily be expanded to become Son of God or High Priest. I believe that we are talking about James at this point. The man who will continue the work of the sect which is the official religion of the line of David and the man who will be murdered on the steps of the temple twenty years later by the head of the Christian church, Paul.
What has all this to do with 2012?
Nothing and everything.
I also believe in the story that everything that has happened will happen again. An never ending cycle if you will. The world of the Jews ended in 70AD give or take, the Roman world ended half a millenium later and the world did another major 90 degree turn at the turn of the last millennium when the Normans took over.
Religion teaches us the rules whereby we should live our lives and also teaches us that there are consequences for not obeying these rules. It's all about crowd control. This modern era of absolute surveillance is no different to the crackdown regimes of the Maoist, Soviet, Normans or the Romans even, the American Empire will eventually come tumbling down in a big heap just like all the rest. Although the Maoist will probably peak in about twenty years. Is this because the "Godless" nation is a better system? I think not. I believe that there are opportunities for those who are at the starting gate to win the race. If it's not won this time, tomorrow is another day. I remember talking briefly with someone who wished to be involved with property sales in Europe to Chinese businesses and he was a little upset and suggested that I might be a bit bigoted when I warned him in his dealings with China.
Sometimes to win a race, people will use what to us are unacceptable tactics and China is filled with this practice. Therefore there is a high possibility that when the American Empire falters, the Chinese empire will flood in to fill the vacuum.
When I talk about things like unacceptable practice, I am not talking about their horrendous human rights record, after all, there are many who have a record that is nothing to be proud of. and I'm not talking about the fur trade in cat and dog as recorded by organisations like PETA, but I'm talking simply about worker's rights.
We, in Australia, have a strong union and good worker's rights situation. It is a work in progress, but not bad. In this particular race, we look over our shoulder to see the US huffing and puffing behind us, while the Chinese are so far behind, they almost appear as if they are in front.
This is where greed is evident in the world of today. How the workers are treeted in their workplace. Are they supplied with PPE, given a fair days pay for a fair days work. Are their rights attended to?
What does this have to do with 2012AD?
Nothing and everything.
They say we're a pretty laid back kind of people her in the land of Auz. And we are. Hell, we don't even have a Bill of Rights! There is a reason for that. With everyone there is a breaking point and if you live in a society where the poorest number less than five per cent and are better off than the majority in a land on the brink of revolution, then chances are you won't experience a revolution.
Revolution is the Armageddon that is prophesied.
If local, then not really a problem, but when the revolution involves a superpower, then it becomes an issue.
A society will break down from the inside before it becomes vulnerable to attack from the outside. Greed eventually destroys just like a virus and has little to do with Spirituality or the teaching of this Spirituality, Religion. Religion is, I believe, a distraction form the real Anti-Christ in this instance, and the multi-headed Beast that was loosed apon the world.
Each armageddon has it's own multi-headed beast, ours is right in front of our eyes and it isn't religion. -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 8:33 PM>With everyone there is a breaking point and if you live in a society where the poorest number less than five per cent and are better off than the majority in a land on the brink of revolution, then chances are you won't experience a revolution. <
i don't really understand this sentence but what we're probably not gonna have a revolution?? i think there's some malcontents who might have something to say about that.. but are you saying they're a minority and inevitably powerless?
like i'm not sure about the poverty rate in Australia.. but can you imagine how predominantly Aboriginals might feature in that figure?? mostly i bet.
but there's all kinds of catalysts for revolution,not just economic right?
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities" ~ Ayn Rand
what does Communism have against God, if anything? -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 8:44 PMoh and like over 30% of Chinese consider themselves to be religious
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 8:13 PMyes of course the Universe is God!! or is that the other way around..
and well i guess you're just gonna have to call me a wanker cos i'm going to say that i have a fairly good conception of what the Universe is. and no, as it is, i cannot prove it to you ~ i don't yet even know how you can discover it for yourself. for me, it was instantaneous. and only the beginning of a new chapter of my search for God ~ but are you sure you could prove your mother's love for you beyond a shadow of a doubt?
i'm sure you guys are who Armstrong was referring to when she said "We talk far too much about God these days." ;D i'm just not convinced that a 'non-believer' can't reason with God. rationalising and intellectualising might get you nowhere fast. "here is a thing, formless yet complete. Before heaven and earth it existed. Without sound, without substance, it stands alone and unchanging. It is all-pervading and unfailing. We do not know its name, but we call it Tao. .. Being one with nature, the sage is in accord with the Tao." (Lao Tzu) i mean, really.. try and get into a debate with the force of the subject.. it is probably impossible. like trying to catch a handful of water.. under water! so while i think reasoning with God is kinda out of the question, i think judging God is ludicrous. i mean what if one scenario might be: a relationship with God is reciprocal. say 'Judgment Day' comes and you deny God's 'existence'.. God will only deny yours. scary shit if you ask me :D and i know the whole "if God was real, bad things wouldn't happen" is an all-pervading judgment~i used to say the same thing as a kid, myself~but can you seriously believe something isn't viable because it is incongruent with your current values/preconceptions?
but that's not to say an atheist cannot live in accordance with God's most holy mighty supreme divine perfect way. as Armstrong said, there exists an ethical bent to the art of life. but surely there's a hell of a lot of difference between an ethical and a spiritual understanding? (they could be exactly the same for all i know) like it takes a kind of intelligence to realise 'cause and effect' but it's spirituality that has one.. well i won't go on cos this is moving into the 'transcendental' territory that hasn't been broached yet.. except kinda the part about the after-life working to motivate right behaviour. and i agree that it is a much nicer feeling to know someone is genuinely good.. but it is kind of reassuring when people (consistently or should i say religiously) pursue good behaviour isn't it? i'd rather someone curb a sinister desire than give into temptation, for example, whatever the motivation. i don't think people should be judged for doing the best they can. some people believe that eternal and infinite consciousness is their destiny.. and they're giving everything they have to feel worthy of it.. i can see how a deep-seated guilt must riddle the course of some lives. then there's others who graciously accept the kind of bliss that some won't even allow themselves to believe exists. humanity huh :D i suppose the main distinction is between those who are self-serving and those who do good for the benefit of another. cos there's the "'spiritual' people" you mentioned VidasVeron for whom goodness (depending on their alignment) is effortless, because they are united with everything that is, moving in accordance. but religion serves those who need or desire guidance.. call the followers what you must: children, drones, lazy, brainwashed.. and works to kind of socialise them ~ like mythological legends, fairytales.. art and poetry like VidasVeron said ~ helping them 'fake it til they make it', to emulate some kind of (cosmic or human?) standard. anyway personally for now at least i value religious texts far more than any institutional hierarchy or ritual (close behind is yoga, dancing, singing, mantras, music, prayer, drawing, poetry ETC!!!) and believe you me they are powerful illuminators/reminders/affirmations.. priceless. i don't doubt they are divinely inspired, because they resonate (with MILLIONS).
so while all roads lead to God (and we are *all* on a road) it must be appreciated that God invariably has different connotations for different people, dependent on which road/level/plane/stage they are on. and i have to say that an atheist talking of God is tackling the issue from a purely ignorant perspective.. not stupid, just oblivious. i mean for sure they are well aware of (at least) *one* of God's faces cos they're conscious.. but going so far as to discuss God's *nature* is beyond them. they can stick to characteristics.. like VidasVeron would probably say God is reckless or insensitive or manic or..!?
having said all that i am not turning my back on a life without God.. or a short life that terminates when i take a dirt nap. just it would kill me to break God's heart.
and unfortunately i can't track a most relevant (to Armstrong's quote i read the other day.. about enlightenment, and perfecting your chosen art/path for its (enlightenment's) sake. so here's a slightly more arid but nonetheless similar one from Coolidge: "Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."
and a token Eastern quote from Confucius: "The expectations of life depend upon diligence; the mechanic that would perfect his work must first sharpen his tools"
oh and >The idea of the first to be last and the last to be first is a recurring theme in most religions. Where the master becomes the servant of all< is cool.. perhaps what the transition from the Age of Pisces to Aquarius itself compounds!? -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 8:20 PM<<perhaps what the transition from the Age of Pisces to Aquarius itself compounds!?>.
i agree! And that being said, that's a -long- time off.... -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 10:21 PM> that's a -long- time off....<
that depends on who the leaders are exactly.
take me to your leader www.astrolog.org/labyrnth/...ractal.gif -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 10:21 PMgah! or what.
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 9:35 AM<<that depends on who the leaders are exactly.>>
All of our leadership is still awfully Piscean, no? Chinese, for example? Are they "worse" than us???
IMO, Vedic astrology has the ages pinned down more exactly. Age of Aquarius begins around 2400 C.E.
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 10:40 PMMust clarify. Maoist is as much Chinese as Soviet is Russian.
There are two kinds of people in the world, wankers and liars and I've never told a lie in my life.
As far as God and the Universe is concerned, A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet.
And lastly, as far as my mother is concerned, who much or how little she loved me is irrellevant. It was and is, my responsibility to love those in my life. Not to request, or demand it from others.
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 4:18 AMof course i meant to say "a 'non-believer' *can* reason with God" there.. ;D -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 5:49 AMan interesting story i have come across again, that reminded me of this discussion, depicting Shiva's response to 'unconscious' worship/ritual:
shivalaya.vnc.in/en/mahash...unter.html -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Mon, November 9, 2009 - 6:56 AMThanks for forwarding us to a wonderful Shiva story and lesson!
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sat, November 7, 2009 - 10:57 PMWhat is progress truly in relation to all other things. Nothing, that's what. And I am not saying this to support science or religion. I am saying this because human beings do not seem to grasp anything about there place in this puzzle called life. There should be more emphasis on balance perhaps than progress. -
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Re: Soul Hunger: The reason of faith, according to Karen Armstrong
Sun, November 8, 2009 - 11:00 AMBit radical there Celestine.
Next you'l be suggesting that we should share the wealth of this world and that everyone should ban together as brothers and sisters in unity and peace......
Sick puppy!
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