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people will always take up the opportunity to make a buck......the existance of charlatans doesn't doesn't mean the things they tell half truths or complete lies about in order to make money aren't true. The only ones who really know what happens on the 2012 date in question are those looking back at it with an open mind. We can't scientifically prove nothing will happen. But we do know it's interesting as far as what's going on in the heavens. To ignore the importance that has been placed on the placement of heavenly bodies since the dawn of humankind (even by cultures as advanced as the ancient Egyptians.....which we only just start to comprehend) would be arrogant.
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 2:46 PMModern astronomy was born of astrology. Astronomers and mathematicians were the lackeys of the very trendy astrologers in the ancient days before Christianity. I like to think that if you could give credibility to anything, you should do so in order to provide honest debate. So with this in mind, I'll make a proposal.
There are seismically inactive subterranean lakes around our globe which have measuring instruments in them to measure radiation from the surrounding stars as it passes through our world. This radiation changes and fluctuates with each star that explodes at a distant point in the galaxy and affects, and is affected by the Earth and all it's constituent parts, including us. We know the effects of radiation on the human body when exposed for long periods and with high doses and I don't need to go into that here, but.............If you were developing in the womb over the nine months that specific radiation types and levels were being concentrated and that was to come to a dramatic stop when you are born, then would that radioactive "programming" be evident in you as a person.
You should be able to determine these radiation types and intensities by simply observing the source of the radiation, stars.
As far as the suggestion that astrology is bunk because the stars that are supposed to have an effect on us are not truly as they ARE but how they were thousands if not millions of years ago,is that we see them because the radiation, THAT SPECIFIC radiation is reaching us and affecting us now.
As far as 2012 events are concerned, we have another thing that we should consider when thinking on prophesy. Nothing is new here. Everything that is occurring has occurred before many times over if not on a smaller scale. There are people who do their best to get the lesson that was supposed to be learned on each of those occasions, across. This lesson is best taught in stories and from the ancient prophets to the modern Sci Fi writers, the story is repeated in the hope we will GET THE MESSAGE.
CO2 is not the overall culprit here, neither is CO or SO4 or over fishing or deforesting, or overpopulation or over-hunting, strip mining, methane or any other individual thing. But we are doing all of these things all over the world and the result will be the eventual desolation of the species. Death by a thousand cuts. The longer we keep delaying that ninety degree turn in our way of doing things the more drastic the cure will be. If we delay too long, we die.
In short, we do this the easy way, the hard way, or not at all.
2012, I believe, is merely the cut off point for the easy way. -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 3:10 PM"As far as the suggestion that astrology is bunk because the stars that are supposed to have an effect on us are not truly as they ARE but how they were thousands if not millions of years ago,is that we see them because the radiation, THAT SPECIFIC radiation is reaching us and affecting us now."
If you want to make this argument persuasive on scientific grounds, you would also need to address issues such as the presence of radiation in the Earth itself (in the form of uranium, radon, and other radioactive elements and compounds that come from below us, not from above). There are traces of these in all kinds of manufactured items, and a walk through your local Wal Mart would likely expose you to more radiation than anything coming from any stars farther away than the Sun.
You'd also need to provide a convincing argument that the radiation from distant stars is more significant than, say, all of the millions of radio stations, TV stations, cell phones, microwave towers, wireless devices (including infrared sensors, etc.) that have become part of our daily life. (I'd be willing to bet that the radiation from my cell phone affects you more than anything coming from the galactic center.)
How much do you actually know about radiation?
Radiation
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 4:39 PMThe older I get, the less I seem to know about anything.
As far as the issue around Astrology and the effect stellar radiation would have on an unborn fetus is concerned, the mineral radiation sources and manufactured radio waves etc. are very new in the scheme of things and would probably not even come into an Astrologer's equation. Most indigenous peoples have had no go zones in their long term history and it has been found that the ground based radiations/gasses etc are usually the reason for they're avoiding these areas. This "science" has been around for thousands of years and the only significant unavoidable radiation sources world wide would have been solar for the majority of the experiment duration.
Imagine a Geneticist arriving at his/her lab to find that someone had opened the control petri dish they'd been using for the last year and exposed it to the effects of a wild party.
For most of it's existence, humanity has stayed in the same spot and eaten the same food for generations. It's only since the baby boomer generation that it is the norm to eat food from all over the world and ingest toxins at the extremely high levels we are ingesting them, mixed in the air we breathe, the water we drink and the food we eat. So, like the poor geneticist with his microbes that have been devastated by smoke from a multitude of sources, splashes of various alcohols, flakes of skin from the dozen or so party goers that passed within spewing distance, the experiment would have to be closed at the previous day's figures.
Consider that the subjects for study are indigenous to the region that is uncorrupted by the modern world in any way. Of course to do this we'd have to turn the clock back at least to the 1950s before satellites bombarded our world with overlapping radio waves and the water that most indigenous groups drank contained no chlorine or fluoride and the food and medications consumed were not bulked out with toxins that produce more problems than they cure, but this is where we'd have to find our subjects the day before the party.
Astrology is like any other occupation or art-form that is part of the old world. There are people who can build you a horse drawn carriage, but the usefulness of such a trade is lost in the twenty-first century. A roof thatcher for example would have to learn another trade in LA.
So too, an Astrologer in the twenty first century has no credible basis for their craft.
But what if we were dealing with the nineteenth century or before?
It is, after all only recently that we discovered that the pyramids were not built by slave labour, but by conscript labour who lived high on the hog with all the best foods.
So. To discover if an old world trade had any real basis for existence, we need to look at it from a pre-techno-tribe world. -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 4:43 PMMost indigenous peoples have had no go zones in their long term history and it has been found that the ground based radiations/gasses etc are usually the reason for they're avoiding these areas.
which indigenous peoples...?
which no go zones...? -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 12:32 PMWell the native Australian in the Northern Territory is one such group and have had an area that was considered a no go area up to thirty years ago. It's called the Ranger Uranium mine now. -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 12:52 PMso you're saying most indigenous people when you mean one group in australia...?
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 3:02 PM"the existance of charlatans doesn't doesn't mean the things they tell half truths or complete lies about in order to make money aren't true"
Obviously, one could say the same thing about fundamentalist Christian televangelists, radical Muslim imams, or even the Pope himself.
Just because importance has been placed on something doesn't mean it's actually important. -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 4:53 PMAs the first "Pope" said, it is as hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven as it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.
I have a friend who died thirty odd years ago and then came back.
She had a disagreement with the LIGHT on whether she should come back or whether she should be allowed to stay. She lost the argument. But something she noted about the Judgement of her life's sins was relevant.
It was not things such as stealing or being rude or being sexually active out of wedlock that was sinful as far as her spirit was concerned, it was wether or not she helped the old lady who tripped in the street. or gave her coat to a homeless person who was shivering with cold. These are the kind of things she felt shame for and now she works in welfare.
Interesting how death changes you.
How blest are those who don't have to die to see the truth. -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 5:06 PMif only the world were full of dead people then maybe it wouldn't be so full of lies... ;)
www.youtube.com/watch
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 12:40 PMThere is a theory that this entire existance is a virtual reality game we are playing. Imagine if that were so, how would you feel if you were dragged out of the game and told that you were screwing it up for everyone else. Then you were thrown back and someone on this side asked what you saw on the other side?
If you were a lying arrogant son of a toad before hand, then there is a fifty fifty chance you'd tell people you saw nothing and go on with your horrid arrogant rich prick existance until you died for good and most people would be happy to see you go.
Sorry. Got carried away there. -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 1:00 PMI'm not sure what you're trying to say here...
do you mean that if you got an enlightened POV on yourself from the other side of ignorance then you'd still carry on being ignorant anyway because that's your nature...?
or do you mean like with old scrooge and the ghosts of xmas past and present and future you'd be so shocked by your visions that you'd let some pennies out of your purse and buy some prezzies for your underlings...?
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 2:24 AM'a' theory? which 'one' are you referring to? -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 2:28 AMwow just as i sent that this Goa trance track i'm listenin to said "Americans were acting on behalf of, and for the benefit of, all mankind."
as for what would one do if that took place.. -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 2:40 AM -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 2:51 AM
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 2:28 AMmaybe the theory that consciousness is actually a future version of sonic the hedgehog revisiting itself...? -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 3:07 AMthere's so many takes on the virtual realty paradigm.. wait is it the same as simulation?
last time the notion came to me was just a couple fo hours ago in fact.. i pictured being someone else seeing through my eyes again.
then there's all the confusion about your thoughts not being your own, though free will being yours.. etc etc
it's really no easy concept to come to terms with for me -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 3:18 AMwell...
consciousness is tricky territory which is why it is the haunt of so many "charlatans"...
but also it is a real issue of the most fundamental importance...
if you can be bothered to care... ;)
www.youtube.com/watch -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 3:38 AMwell i'm in two minds.. i'm prone to wandering bare foot for miles or down dark alleys, hallucinating and speaking in tongues all in communion with God.. but that's awfully self-indulgent. i'd rather come to know this state reasonably, and market it to the masses!
but what's a charlatan: someone with a take on reality who is driven to manipulate consciousness to their own self-serving end (fame, fortune) or someone malign and without spiritual insight driven to capitalise on desperation and ignorance by presenting some kind of 'tangible' salvation? -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 4:12 AMwell when I was 17 I wandered for miles up the coast to blackpool prom and beyond in a pair of leather hindi hippy slippers...
I walked in a homeade poncho with a stick I found and random drunks called me moses...
and everything appeared to be social commentary...
glowing with absurdity...
but I came out of the trip with naffed up feet because the lines had opened to flesh etc...
so I think charlatans work on different levels...
some could be considered like performers providing a useful service...
like soothsayers and priests and healers etc...
they would be deceiving people but maybe also themselves and the results may be mutually beneficial because of social interaction therapy etc...
that's kind of what a lot of society is based on and why a lot of new age stuff can be quite positive despite being "nonsense"...
as a lot of alternative folk will readily point out mainstream society is also often absurd...
there's the difference between "reason" and music and theatre for example...
and then everybody has to pay their way whatever the pretext...
so in fact it's quite natural for charlatans to feed off eachother and what is important is cashflow not science...
I mean what on earth do you mean by "spiritual insight"...?
isn't it usually just some loon feeling like they've got a shortcut that says they are righteous whatever crap they come out with...?
but if that's the demon that's showing top in the pantheon of the nuthouse who is to say it's spiritually wrong...?
consciousness is tricky territory to navigate in an evil world etc...
but sometimes because of a dum adolescent trip I think I'm moses and should be leading the disenfranchised to the promised land at the head of a theosophical conspiracy or something... hahaha
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 6:21 AM>what on earth do you mean by "spiritual insight"...?<
i didn't mean intelligence, and especially superiority.. but clearly my assumptions are plain to see~ i value compassion, but really i'm not entirely convinced of a spiritual hierarchy.. there is a time and a place for everything, and with God in mind 'everything glows with absurdity'
Ode To Mother Kali
They do not sell your statues in the shops, O Mother.
Buddha, Ganesh, Lakshmi, all in vogue,
adorning lobbies of comfortable houses,
prosperity to those who already have,
a scent of spirituality to mask the rot
but you, Mother, are not in fashion.
no marketing niche for you,
no category
the analytic mind sees you coming,
scythe gleaming in the sun
to once and for all
cleave the Real from the unreal
it drops everything
and flees
Mother, we talk amongst ourselves
about how life is suffering
life is unfair
sometimes I imagine
that when I get to the soul’s world
I can write God a strongly worded letter
demanding immediate and radical changes
to the Cosmic Game
before I agree to come back down again
but you,
you are just having the time of your life,
are you not?
and those who come to know your dance
can see it everywhere
I bet that was you
with your arms around your long-suffering servant
as the car gracefully pirouettes through the air
with him in it
I see you taunting the forces of death
just try
i dare you
i double triple dare you
touch him
go on
cross that line
and see what happens
I bet that was you
coasting inland
atop a chariot of tidal waves
gathering souls to yourself
like a blackjack dealer in Vegas
ready to spread them out again
on freshly-watered soils
I bet that was you
standing on top of the crossbar in 1988
when Charlie Redmond took that penalty
and you were laughing your head off
I bet that was you
dancing with a fury
and a speed
that makes you seem everywhere at once
stampeding through opposing armies
like a Nebraska linebacker
as tanks shatter through walls
as men pierce through boys
and the game gathers pace
And I know that is you
standing behind your chosen sons
the great Masters
who like the Buddha
will not move
will not sleep
until your six billion children
one by one
awaken
rub their eyes
and wonder why it took so long
to truly live
your dearest, dearest, dearest sons
dearer to you than your own Life
yet you strap them to the leaden harness of a human body
as they hold their nose and take the plunge
immersed and alone in the sea of ignorance
but you stand beside their bed
as they lie hooked up to the machine of maya
you hold their hands
as they siphon the ingratitude and begrudgery of the world
out through their very bones
Oh Mother, often I marvel how they can stay on earth for so long
and when I do
in the silence
then
I sense the starlit footprints of Your Compassion.
Mother, the PR department have been on to me
they say you are giving God a bad name
you are not projecting the right image
they have given me a 492-page manual on politically correct etiquette for cosmic gods
they want you to study it
they want you to put some clothes on
and behave yourself
maybe then, they say, they’ll even be able to sell your statues in the shops
but their stilted ideas about compassion
bind and blind compassion itself
because the more I discover you
I see your naked sword is indistinguishable from your cooling touch
your reaping is indistinguishable from your sowing
that the hour of death is as much your Compassion
as the hour of birth
and that the entire universe
is but a one-act play
of your Love -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 6:42 AMode to evil worms...
oh evil worms
conjure me something nice
like the life I'd put together
from advertising campaigns
if only I could control you... -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 7:03 AMwell ultimately you don't want to want anymore.. but is there something intrinsic about what you want that is more attractive than eliminating your feeling of lack?
when i lost an eBay auction last night i came up with the brilliant idea that i could add everything i wanted to my watch list and just fawn over them all day, but then delete them without bidding.. kind of like what a bulemic does :/ maybe at least until i don't want anymore but it's a bit of a stupid futile idea anyway. just a thought :D -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 7:04 AMyour sense of lack, really. -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 7:49 AMI only lack the important nurturing sustenance and connection stuff whereas I don't lack pointless crap... hahaha
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 8:32 AMso are you going to move, or invite some company over? or do you think this is something you will overcome on your own or with evil worms?
www.whowantstomarryme.co.uk/about.php -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 8:43 AMGerard said: "...There is a theory that this entire existance is a virtual reality game we are playing. Imagine if that were so, how would you feel if you were dragged out of the game and told that you were screwing it up for everyone else. Then you were thrown back and someone on this side asked what you saw on the other side?...."
interesting thought...
it would be perfectly real to anyone 'inside' the game.
That would need a pretty advanced cpu. -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 9:14 AMwhich side is inside in that story? and what's a CPU? -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 9:42 AM"which side is inside in that story?..."
the characters we play in the dream
"...and what's a CPU? "
Central Processing Unit
the dreamer
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 8:45 AMmy first love contacted me 20 years after breaking my little heart...
she said she was divorced and looking and on some dating site...
so I kinda checked it out but didn't see her ad...
but from the ads I saw...
there weren't any girls I found attractive...
and even the ones I found unnattractive were all looking for stuff I ain't...
ie from a particular cultural background with particular racial typing and large salaries and big nobs etc...
basically nearly all the women on dating sites seem to be after tall socially connected white guys with money... hahaha
it's kinda weird how it's been like that all the way through life...
like my peers however useless always had girls dripping off them and jobs and progeny and the rest...
all I had was the sneaking suspicion I might be cooler...
which turned out to be delusional...
of course... hahaha -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 9:30 AMwell they can say anything on dating sites.. most of the time, however, people can't help who they fall in love with (i am consistently surprised every time i fall)
i'm actually at a point in my life where i'm considering the value of convention.. -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 9:44 AMI reckon "people" don't fall in love...
they just get a good shag that drops them whilst they're hot so they think they were in love because of the withdrawal...
unless you mean the affection thing...
which would probably be a similar mechanism but without the humping...
convention is good...
people who have a solid base get more out of life...
it's easier to shag around if you're married and it's easier to moonlight if you've got a steady job...
I reckon the dullest most conventionally grounded people are the ones that get to take time out for kinky shit on exotic holidays etc... -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 11:41 AM"they just get a good shag that drops them whilst they're hot so they think they were in love because of the withdrawal..."
I've been with my wife for 26 years. Sex is more of a symptom than a cause ;-) -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 12:27 PMwell good for you steven...
but I must admit that your marriage might be an exception to what I see around me...
which would at least on the surface seem like variously disturbing forms of expedience...
I don't have relationships and other people's relationships aren't my business...
but what I observe from the outside generally baffles me...
on the surface a long marriage might seem ideal but of course it could be utterly tragic too...
I've never known anything but brief rare fatales...
I used to think people stole my wives but in fact I was just an aside and probably less than a sneeze for the ladies concerned etc...
www.youtube.com/watch
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 7:21 AMyeah I had an ebay year...
I bought acrap computer and an old van and an even older bicycle and a giant pretend expensive watch...
and I had buyer's remorse every time...
but I got trapped in a kind of poverty consciousness bargain hunting loop...
and even bought pointless cheapo crap from supermarket sales...
it could of been even worse but I am living in pointless art and DIY clutter so adding junk is ridiculous and mostly counterproductive...
strangely enough though there is some weird logic at work in that the purchases could almost make sense if I were to start travelling in a van doing car boot sales...
but that isn't my conscious intention and isn't something I should be concerned with so it's almost like something in the country air like that's what happens to losers in the wilds...
very strange the off kilter relationship between the virtual and the real...
of course the junk is filling the gap of the absence of love and money etc...
and makes the remote possibility of that stuff even remoter...
unless I try and hook up with druggies or something...
the beat up old van is fun though...
it's nice driving slow and high up and bouncy like that... hahaha
but it will be in the junkyard before I get to do anything fun and adventurous with it... =o( -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 8:17 AMin 3 short weeks i've spent nearly $300 on eBay buying designer perfumes, huge vintage wooden dice, books, a backpack, a patch, art deco jewellery, some onyx, spikenard and patchouli oils, a Scandinavian magazine, shampoo conditioner and body oil. but apart from some clothes i bought last month, i haven't bought any 'things' since my Macbook back in January. and it's rare that i buy anything that i wouldn't classify as an essential to fit in a bag should i ever do anything with my piece of shit life again :P
last year i made a bonfire in the backyard that lasted all afternoon til dusk.. i burned boxes of sketchpads, schoolbooks, journals, paintings, photos, cards, letters - and smeared the ashes on my skin ;D - and dumped even more things in the bins.. all sentimental and superfluous of course. i maintained only key items - but i oughta cull them too. i could have donated it all, but i made it a personal ritual of renouncement.. and destruction!@#$ and i'm not heartless incase you're wondering.. i just needed to move on.
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 8:34 AMyeah that was a kinda intention...
to do a bonfire of the vanities and burn all the vestiges of futile naieve genius...
but then the ego doesn't want to let go until there is someone filming the spectacle...
some way of insidiously transmitting the bad seeds through paths of unbowed glory etc...
www.youtube.com/user/sign6...kJ37McRFhjU
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 9:13 AMwell i seem to have burned so many bridges without a second thought.. just as i've lost things in the blink of an eye. but it's still all so close to home i'd hardly need any further proof..
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 9:38 AMmy bridges burned me... -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 9:40 AMyour attachments burned you? -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 9:49 AM
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 6:57 AMi am however almost entirely given to karma (the striking balance).. i am sure everything is reasoned. and if there truly is such a thing as an end to anything, then the only power humanity has is over expedience. in the meantime, God has all the time in the world.
what i'm trying to say is suffering a charlatan is not the end of the world because existence has its purpose.. like any system. nothing should be taken for granted.. and for the most part, taken at face value (not to say that cynicism or discernment is necessary.. just respecting that there are two sides to every story and still waters run deep and so on and so on). it seems the worst they can do is lead a person down the wrong path, or disillusion them entirely.. but shit happens! and happens. until it degenerates or entropies or regenerates. and the best a deceiver can do is simulate some glamour that results in some, as you say, beneficial ~albeit superficial~ 'social interaction therapy' that serves to generate the matrix for the as yet unenlightened beings who are still dependent on it. voila!
www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/ima....jpg -
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Re: 2012 Charlatans
Mon, October 26, 2009 - 3:10 PM<i didn't mean intelligence, and especially superiority.. but clearly my assumptions are plain to see~ i value compassion, but really i'm not entirely convinced of a spiritual hierarchy.. there is a time and a place for everything, and with God in mind 'everything glows with absurdity' >
lovely words.
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