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In trying to make sense of this 2012 thing, I seem to keep getting drawn back to the early 1970s. I don't know yet whether it's insight or apophenia, but I thought it might be worth exploring together.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
In 1972, Simon & Schuster published their second book by Carlos Castaneda, "A Journey to Ixtlan", which turned out to be a runaway bestseller.
On March 5, 1973, TIME magazine ran a cover story on Castaneda that served as both a heads-up and an inspiration to writers interested in shamanism and metaphysics. On March 7, about a week after this issue appeared, the Comet Kohoutek was first sighted. The display of the comet was predicted to be a major astronomical event, eagerly awaited across the world. As with other comets, it was also associated with end-of-times predictions, most notably that of David Berg, founder of the Children of God, who predicted doomsday would arrive in January 1974, (interestingly, the date was associated with the winter solstice on December 21, 1973):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Kohoutek
www.xfamily.org/index.php/...ARC_ML_0280
While the comet's appearance fell far short of expectations and the world didn't end, there were some significant things going on in 1974. Among them was the Watergate investigation, the ultimate breakdown in authority, which eventually resulted in President Nixon's resignation on August 8. It was also a time of metaphysical questing, as represented for me by the album "Tales from Topographic Oceans" by the band Yes:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tale...hic_Oceans
It was released in December 1973, arriving in the U.S. in January 1974. It reached #1 on the UK charts and #6 in the U.S. that year. The album cover alludes to celestial observations and includes iconic images from ancient sites: the Temple of Kukulcan from Chichén Itzá and the monkey geoglyph from Nazca. If you read the lyrics, I think you'll find some familiar sentiments:
www.yesworld.com/lyrics/Ta...ceans.html
I suspect that Castaneda's success and the media attention he was receiving in 1973, as well as end-of-world speculation and general metaphysical exporations, provided the impetus for two books, both of which appeared in 1975.
- Terence & Dennis McKenna's "The Invisible Landscape: Mind, Hallucinogens, and the I Ching" (New York: The Seabury Press), the first publication to present the Timewave theory identifying 2012 as the year in which sub-waves of this fractal model peaked.
- José Arguelles' "The Transformative Vision: Reflections on the Nature and History of Human Expression" (Boulder, CO: Shambala Publications, Inc.) the first of his publications to mention the significance of 2012. It appears in long footnote (Ch. 1, No. 7) and within a table, Appendix B, "The Ascent of the Jaguar: A map of the later Kali Yuga * the Fouth World * the Iron Age * the Fifth Sun including correlations with Yeats, Mumford and assorted calendars."
1975 also saw the founding of Inner Traditions, a publishing company that would later (in 2000), merge with Bear & Company (founded in 1980), which had been the publisher for Arguelles' 1987 book "The Mayan Factor". IT/B&Co. would later publish key works on 2012 by John Major Jenkins, Carl Johan Calleman, and even its editor, Barbara Hand Clow:
www.innertraditions.com
On April 30, 1975, Saigon fell to North Vietnamese forces, ending the Vietnam War.
For me, this brought about the end of an era--the cultural "1960s"--a decade that had begun with Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters' famous bus ride in 1964. 1975 saw the release of Bruce Springsteen's "Born to Run" and the first episode of Saturday Night Live, each of which helped set the stage for the next decade.
Somehow, the 2012 books all seem to be working to recapture a feeling prevalent in the early 1970s. That time, for me, has clear parallels with the zeitgeist we're in today: Disgust with a war that should never have begun and with a failing American presidency. It was also a time of intense spiritual seeking and understandable distrust with authority. However, my intuition tells me that interest in 2012 also has roots in Castaneda and Kouhoutek.
Any ideas on how these things link up?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
In 1972, Simon & Schuster published their second book by Carlos Castaneda, "A Journey to Ixtlan", which turned out to be a runaway bestseller.
On March 5, 1973, TIME magazine ran a cover story on Castaneda that served as both a heads-up and an inspiration to writers interested in shamanism and metaphysics. On March 7, about a week after this issue appeared, the Comet Kohoutek was first sighted. The display of the comet was predicted to be a major astronomical event, eagerly awaited across the world. As with other comets, it was also associated with end-of-times predictions, most notably that of David Berg, founder of the Children of God, who predicted doomsday would arrive in January 1974, (interestingly, the date was associated with the winter solstice on December 21, 1973):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Kohoutek
www.xfamily.org/index.php/...ARC_ML_0280
While the comet's appearance fell far short of expectations and the world didn't end, there were some significant things going on in 1974. Among them was the Watergate investigation, the ultimate breakdown in authority, which eventually resulted in President Nixon's resignation on August 8. It was also a time of metaphysical questing, as represented for me by the album "Tales from Topographic Oceans" by the band Yes:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tale...hic_Oceans
It was released in December 1973, arriving in the U.S. in January 1974. It reached #1 on the UK charts and #6 in the U.S. that year. The album cover alludes to celestial observations and includes iconic images from ancient sites: the Temple of Kukulcan from Chichén Itzá and the monkey geoglyph from Nazca. If you read the lyrics, I think you'll find some familiar sentiments:
www.yesworld.com/lyrics/Ta...ceans.html
I suspect that Castaneda's success and the media attention he was receiving in 1973, as well as end-of-world speculation and general metaphysical exporations, provided the impetus for two books, both of which appeared in 1975.
- Terence & Dennis McKenna's "The Invisible Landscape: Mind, Hallucinogens, and the I Ching" (New York: The Seabury Press), the first publication to present the Timewave theory identifying 2012 as the year in which sub-waves of this fractal model peaked.
- José Arguelles' "The Transformative Vision: Reflections on the Nature and History of Human Expression" (Boulder, CO: Shambala Publications, Inc.) the first of his publications to mention the significance of 2012. It appears in long footnote (Ch. 1, No. 7) and within a table, Appendix B, "The Ascent of the Jaguar: A map of the later Kali Yuga * the Fouth World * the Iron Age * the Fifth Sun including correlations with Yeats, Mumford and assorted calendars."
1975 also saw the founding of Inner Traditions, a publishing company that would later (in 2000), merge with Bear & Company (founded in 1980), which had been the publisher for Arguelles' 1987 book "The Mayan Factor". IT/B&Co. would later publish key works on 2012 by John Major Jenkins, Carl Johan Calleman, and even its editor, Barbara Hand Clow:
www.innertraditions.com
On April 30, 1975, Saigon fell to North Vietnamese forces, ending the Vietnam War.
For me, this brought about the end of an era--the cultural "1960s"--a decade that had begun with Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters' famous bus ride in 1964. 1975 saw the release of Bruce Springsteen's "Born to Run" and the first episode of Saturday Night Live, each of which helped set the stage for the next decade.
Somehow, the 2012 books all seem to be working to recapture a feeling prevalent in the early 1970s. That time, for me, has clear parallels with the zeitgeist we're in today: Disgust with a war that should never have begun and with a failing American presidency. It was also a time of intense spiritual seeking and understandable distrust with authority. However, my intuition tells me that interest in 2012 also has roots in Castaneda and Kouhoutek.
Any ideas on how these things link up?
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 11:42 PMGreat thread.
They all link up through the disillusionment with the until then,
mostly unquestioned overarching narratives.
Another text I've studied on and off for years now, is ACIM,
A Course In Miracles.
A rather good synopsis, and how it came to be, can be found here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Co...n_Miracles
It was received and stenographed by Schucman and Tetford
between 1965 and 1972, and the first commercially available
edition came 1976.
App 1.5 million copies have been sold.
The original text is in the public domain.
acim.home.att.net/
If I were to guess, the books, scriptures, narratives appearing around 1970-75,
are either the last dying gasp of the increasingly decrepit Piscean Aeon,
eg Western Progress, Materialism, Shop-til-you-drop,
or
it might be the first glimpses of something new.
I would be very interested to know if there are corresponding breakthroughs around this period,
dealing with open-minded inquiry, reason, metalogue, global scientific awareness,
mass-media beginning to tell things apart from the spin of the governments,
individuals beginning to search for the truth themselves, and, intertwined with all
this, the emergent revolution of computers, and the fledgling net.
I've a hunch, but I haven't got the dates sorted. It's a big topic. -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Tue, October 23, 2007 - 11:53 PMTetford and Schucman were 1965 working as psychologists at the Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center.
They were constantly clashing through lack of compatibility.
www.acim.org/TheScribes/SectionIntro.htm
"It was therefore a rather startling event when, in the Spring of 1965, Bill delivered an impassioned speech to Helen
in which he said that he was fed up with the competition, aggression, and anger which permeated their professional
lives, extended into their attitudes and relationships, and pervaded the department. He concluded and told her that
"there must be another way" of living—in harmony rather than discord—and that he was determined to find it. Equally
startling, and to their mutual surprise, Helen agreed with Bill and enthusiastically volunteered to join him in a collaborative
search to find this other and better way."
The above is commonly referred to as the beginning of ACIM.
Now, I realize there many many different ways to interpret the above.
For me, within the context of this thread here, it perfectly fits the then prevailing collective mindset.
Granted, there might be a core of truth, an essential deep value residing in the ACIM text.
Even so, I believe Tetford and Schucman channeled the Zeitgeist as well, that, or the essential
message, was clothed in it, coloured by it.
The zeitgeist of disillusionment:
"there must be another way" -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 12:16 AMwhohey... that's smokin' Light~
thsnkd -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 5:21 AMMy parents were hippies in the 60's and they say the 70's began the Jesus movement, and that hippies in droves started rejecting and burning records (as my dad did), to turn to the lord.
(now he is learning from his son about why this was a mistake). -
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Bootstrapping the Apocalypse
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 7:20 AMHoopes,
I was on the message boards in the late 80's there was a shed load of apocalyptic thought going on then - the ring of fire, photon belt, comets and in particular the black triangular UFO's that were going to come and lift us off the planet just in time.
What we have in a retelling of the Christian apocalypse in modern technologist terms. The key dates for the 80's apocalypse passed however it just keeps resurrecting itself and pushes the dates on to the next potential anniversary. In this case 2012.
You have all these people who are really saying, like the ancient Israelites, 'How long oh Lord, how long before you come and save us'.
If I was a religious man I would say that we are trying to bootstrap the apocalypse -but expect another missed anniversary and another chosen future date to focus on.
Jesus gets a bad press these days - but he is presented as saying re the 'End Times' No one knows the time or place - not the Son or the angels in Heaven'. Could be worthwhile giving Him some slack - stop focussing on the End and get living for the now.
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 8:02 AMWell, here's a lead on some background to ACIM that you might not have anticipated:
web.uvic.ca/~erick123
Reed Erickson, a quirky and eccentric philanthropist with substantial finanacial resources, was one of the principal backers of ACIM.
"In 1964, Reed Erickson launched the Erickson Educational Foundation (EEF), a philanthropic organization funded entirely by Erickson himself. The Erickson Educational Foundation's stated goals were 'to provide assistance and support in areas where human potential was limited by adverse physical, mental or social conditions, or where the scope of research was too new, controversial or imaginative to receive traditionally oriented support.'"
"The EEF had three main foci of funding over the twenty years during which it was active. One of its earliest and longest running recipients of financial support was the early homophile organization ONE Inc. of Los Angeles, founded in 1952 and still operating today, which received the benefit of over US$2 million dollars of support from Erickson. Another major area of Erickson's interest was what have come to be called New Age Movements. The EEF funded what was possibly the first English-language publication on acupuncture. It supported research into homeopathy long before it became well known. Erickson's money helped to support the work of Robert Masters and Jean Houston and their research into non-drug-induced altered states of consciousness and Stanley Krippner's dream research. The Erickson Educational Foundation also helped to support John Lilly's early research into dolphin communications systems and funded the first edition of A Course in Miracles. However, the main centre of Erickson's attention through the EEF was transsexualism."
Here's a link to a brief biography of Erickson:
web.uvic.ca/~ahdevor/ReedErickson.pdf
Ever heard of him before? (I suspect not.) -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 10:03 PMA bit of personal trivia: One of the reasons I know about the EEF is because some of my father's research was funded by Erickson the late 1960s. I'm very proud of him!
ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/co...ticle.html
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 10:09 PMFor those of you who may be unfamiliar with John Lilly, it was his research that inspired the 1980 film "Altered States" (William Hurt's first major role):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Lilly
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_States -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 11:05 PMdr. lilly has come up for me three times today... (his worked worked for me. i'm just learning how to apply it to my own human potential, sober)
i'll have to check some of this out a bit further tomorrow.
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Mayan Doomsday
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 8:56 AMI watched the most fascinating show on the Mayan calendar and their "Doomsday" prediction on Dec. 21, 2012. It was on the history channel last night.
It talks about the Mayan calendar and how it works in cycles (the current cycle we are in started in 1993 and ends on 12/21/12). These cycles last for 20 years and repeat themselves. Depending on what cycle we are in, dictates what events could happen during that cycle. The show linked a lot of the events you are talking about and also talked about what is happening cosmically in the universe during these cycles.
I can't explain the concept very well, but it you get the chance to watch the show I definitely recommend it.
The good news is that the Mayan calendar does go past 12/21/12, but it does predict big changes to come.
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Unsu...
Re: Mayan Doomsday
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 11:56 AMhoopes, this is also exactly when the indigo children were being born, 1974 and on. including me. and now we are at the age where we can manifest our purpose here. i didnt know of the correlation with the comet at that time.........it is all falling into place. pluto alligning with the galactic center this weekend should really jump start our missions leading through the next 5 years.
love!
kristine -
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Re: Mayan Doomsday
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 1:01 PMAccording to the tun these times were the start of the 6th night in the 7th era. I was born on 27.7.74. And I was most definatly indigo...
In Ian Lungolds presentations at least of what got out of them ... is the 6th night the time where also the information of the next level is preveiled.
I wrote a lot about this in my blogs lately and of whats going on now... might be interesting...
people.tribe.net/anicca/blog
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Re: Mayan Doomsday
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 1:25 PMcan somebody explain this indigo children thing? -
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Re: indigo
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 2:13 PMreally glad that there is a tribe with 1616 members who already did that , back and forth on and on...
indigochildren.tribe.net -
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Re: indigo
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 8:29 PMBo, your handle reminds me of another significant mid-70s phenomenon: Anyone else remember Bo and Peep?
"The Two" began recruiting in 1975.
www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1...569.html
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Re: indigo
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 8:40 PMTheir activities were framed by comets: Kohoutek (1973) at the beginning and Hale-Bopp (1997) at the end.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heav...ate_(cult)
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Music for Kohoutek
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 2:42 PMIn December 1973, musician Sun Ra assembled his Arkestra for a concert in honor of the comet Kohoutek:
www.bagatellen.com/archives...1386.html
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Re: Music for Kohoutek
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 2:56 PMHere's some more about Kohoutek, and its purported relationship with the "Star Children", from Daniel Jacob:
"The Comet Kohoutek symbolized, in the physical world, the opening of a Gate, which began a process of spiritual unfoldment for several overlapping generations. These parents and their children have aligned with the souls of countless ancestors and their civilizations to bring about nothing less than our Reconnection with All That Is."
snoedel.punt.nl/index.php
It didn't make much of a showing, but it obviously had an impact.!
Here's a bit more from Daniel Jacob on "Star Children":
www.namastecafe.com/channels/djstar.htm
He says they've been around "since about 1973", no doubt also influenced by Castaneda, Kouhoutek, and other metaphysical musings of the time.
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 3:02 PMI think it's important to point out that the weird goings-on of 1973/74 inspired the Firesign Theater to record a comedy album entitled "Everything You Know is Wrong", released in October 1974:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ever...w_Is_Wrong
www.firesigntheatre.com/albums/album.php
""Now don't be afraid, here in the 'Nude Age,' because there is a seeker born every minute." -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 3:04 PM(It was hilarious at the time because the stereotypes were dead on.) -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 3:17 PMHere's a photo of what I looked like while all this was unfolding:
people.tribe.net/hoopes/ph...fadc1cac83
I remember those days well... -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 10:48 PMAnd you actually never became a hippy...with THAT shirt.
The quote for today is:
"Christianity: The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree." -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 10:44 PMHippy? I was a hippy wannabee. In 1973, I had a ponytail:
people.tribe.net/hoopes/ph...caa5260f42
This was in Baltimore, a year after John Waters made "Pink Flamingos" there:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Flamingos
(The father of my sister's kids had a speaking part in the film.)
I looked a bit like "Crackers" (Danny Mills) at the time. He had a bigger role in "Female Trouble" (1974), which was filmed near where I was living at the time:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_Trouble
Those early 1970s were a magical time. -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 10:50 PMOops. My bad, John Waters fans. The dude in "Female Trouble" was Michael Potter (as Gator).
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Unsu...
Re: 1975 & 2012
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 1:29 AMNot sure why, but it's all about Hair for me. The Musical and yep the track Aquarius.Lennon's Hair Peace/Bed Peace,
www.youtube.com/watch Stay in bed and grow your hair. I know it's bridging 69-70, but that's how it is. -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 8:13 AMI actually think it began in 1967 " The Summer of Love". Seven years later would have been a testy Saturn square which is why The Doors "Break on Through" was my anthem.
www.youtube.com/watch
www.songfacts.com/detail.php
The Summer of 73 was filled with God gazing from a sampling of rainbow colored "trip-a-delics" - all this between my sophmore and junior year in high school.
I hit the wall in early fall decided to drop out and find my own way outside of the mainstream (since I had survived the collision). I didn't trust it and knew I had to go further within where the fire stil burned.
www.youtube.com/watch
Seven years later is 1981 where the opposition occurs for the Saturn cycle we speak of here. We know here the Summer of Love became the Summer of Greed which should tell us something. Seven years further we get to the late eighties where the final square brings us back to the Harmonic Convergence which is the last resort to recapture the original hippy/boomer intent.
1997 was a key year for me with the Saturn return which I've written about in my book and coincides with the most famous UFO sigting in America.
The next cycle takes us to 2004 the first square and our revistining a war we didn't want and 2011 will find the opposition which should bring about some sort of "We own the World" kind of collective experience in my opinion. Can't wait. -
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Re: nostalgia
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 12:44 PMmy friend just put this on her myspace page under 'about me:'
"Things just keep getting better, and I just keep getting older. Is there a connection? Yes, I think so."
& this aint fromt he 70s but it addresses the themes, i think? :-)
www.youtube.com/watch
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Sat, October 27, 2007 - 1:22 AMAh, the Ring-Pass-Not,
which sets up polarities visible as projections in almost all threads as well,
between reasoned people(Saturn) and luv&lighters(Neptune)
between the oppressive fascistoid government(Saturn) and revolutionaries eg a la Naomi Klein(Uranus)
and so on and so forth, with near endless variations.
Good catch Steve!
We should elaborate on this, seven years and twentynine years cycle,
as well as the corresponding twentyseven-eight years cycle(Moon)
and the twenty-year cycle of Jupiter/Saturn.
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 10:57 PMwhat is it with flashbacks today? this thread about 1975 and era, and this song i keep hearing called 1973, is stuck in my head. thats the only part though, just 1973... anyone know it or am i just trippin? i am open...
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 24, 2007 - 11:48 PMYes, Sun Ra and the ACIM all intuitively working together? ...and that photo... ....oh Hoopes... ...what does it all mean!
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Thu, October 25, 2007 - 7:24 AMIs this it?
www.youtube.com/watch
"And the time goes by, I will always be in a club with you in 1973. Singing 'Here we go again.'" -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 12:29 AMHoopes, you spoil us with all these excellent tidbits and findings!
Could all this be related to a desire to return to innocence?
Make love, not war?
Exploring yet another frontier?
2012 as Deus Ex Machina?
Get me the fuck out of here [insert your choice of here and there, here]?
And, if we would succeed in excavating away all the garbage,
whether fear-based, or too saccharine luv&light -
is there a pony in there?
Or is it just a ride, and we would be all the much better for it,
to just relax and enjoy it? -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 7:59 AM"Could all this be related to a desire to return to innocence?"
Perhaps. I suspect it has more to do with a desire for intense, positive emotional experience.
One of the strongest negative human emotions (one that makes people literally self-destruct) is SHAME. Shame is directly related to memory, since one's control or lack of control of specific memories can either eliminate or intensify feelings of shame. Anyone who's dealt with intense shame knows what a poweful head game that can be. It's one of the reasons that adult survivors of child molestation or abusive parents have so many problems.
A pet theory of mine is that the flipside of shame is one of the most powerful positive human emotions: NOSTALGIA. Something about happy early memories just makes us feel all warm and cuddly inside. That's why sitting around and recalling stories of one's childhood--the earlier the better--with family or friends can be such a delight. It's one of the reasons why hearing music or seeing TV shows from our childhood that we haven't heard or seen in a long, long time is so appealing. For me, part of the appeal of the 1960s and 1970s is that it evokes nostalgia. The idea of a "return to innocence" is an important part of this. Something about the period between 1969 and 1975 has always been especially appealing to me. Those were, for me, ages 10 - 16, which I nostalgically associate with a powerful transition from relative innocence to heightened awareness. As my historical tidbits indicate, this was also an expecially intense period for American history and culture.
I suspect that our interest in the ancient past, whether of the Maya (and their calendar), Stonehenge, Egypt, or just archaic cultures in general derives from a kind of deep cultural nostalgia for the distant past--whether real or imagined. (Don't we always imagine the past to have been better than it actually was?)
The power of nostalgia merits some deep reflection:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nostalgia
"The term was newly coined in 1688 by Johannes Hofer (1669-1752), a Swiss medical student. The word is made up of two Greek roots (νόστος = nostos = returning home, and άλγος = algos = pain/longing), to refer to 'the pain a sick person feels because he wishes to return to his native land, and fears never to see it again.'"
Exploitation of nostalgia is one of the most powerful tools of popular culture (and a consumer economy):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decade_nostalgia
Relaxing and enjoying is fine, but enlightenment requires hard work and deep insight. I'm just pointing out some useful paths. I think nostalgia is an important key to understanding the 2012 thing. -
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Nostalgia as one of the keys of understanding the smoke and mirrors of the whole 2012 brouhaha
Sat, October 27, 2007 - 1:29 AMReally happy with you having posted this nostalgia post Hoopes, thank much, thanks for being here.
If there is a pony in the midst of all our posts, a baby in the waning Piscean aeon,
my guesstimate is, it is to be found, beyond nostalgia, beyond shame.
Art of memory, as a possible counterbalance to the desire for intense, positive emotional experience?
Memory & Shame & Nostalgia
Nostalgia as a symbolical quincunx regression from the possible opposition.
A child in time.
( apologies for this cryptic shorthand notation, will elaborate later )
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Sat, October 27, 2007 - 8:32 PMThis is a very right brain type of thinking from you, Hoopes, something unusual. Did you start to smoke pot?
You're on the good track with nostalgia. I would take it further and say, this is a Desire or Yearning that is known in every traditional teaching. My favorite German alchemist, Jacob Bohme, used the term "Begierde" which can be translated as desire, yearning or thirst. His idea is that after God threw us out from the Eden, he left only one gift to humankind; Desire.
Desire to find the way back to him and to the Eden. Bohme actually replaced the Spirit with the term sacred yearning (heilige begierde) defining the Spirit in a unique way. Desire is also a central element in every magical practice.
Also, what' s interesting Aliester Crowley used the term Desire or Lust for the 11th trump tarot card.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stre...ot_card%29
"Böhme had mystical experiences throughout his youth, culminating in a vision in 1600 that he received through observing the exquisite beauty of a beam of sunlight reflected in a pewter dish. He believed this vision revealed to him the spiritual structure of the world, as well as the relationship between God and man, and good and evil. At the time he chose not to speak of this experience openly, preferring instead to continue his work and raise a family."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Böhme
www.rotten.com/library/bi...akob-bohme/
We lost our knowledge of our origin. We don't know where are we coming from, what is our purpose on this planet and where are we headed. The metaphysical tradition says, we have no awareness of the Axis or Center. Every planet, every galaxy is revolving around an axis. Metaphysically talking, gravity is a force that pulls everything towards the center.
Humankind has no axis. Once we had a knowledge about that and revolved around this center. Once the axis is gone from our spirit another force started to dominate; the centrifugal force. Humankind has become a swirling mass without center that's slowly sinking on a vertical plane.
Some think that the Age of Aquarius is all about love, light and soy-sausage. The Aquarius has some disharmonic aspects as well. The first major one is Flooding. While 13000 years ago the flood actually happened externally, with the Age of Aquarius it is happening internally. And what's flooding us is nothing else, but our Unconscious. The signs are everwhere: the diluted values, hive personality, material inflation, information overload, overpopulation etc.
The person is lost and we are all disolved into massive systems, let it be economical, political or cultural. These systems will melt into each other too, eventually.
This is why I think, McKenna's book, the Archaic Revival is one of the most important books of this aeon. He was aware all of these. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 1975 & 2012
Sun, October 28, 2007 - 10:11 AMAuton, really good post. Just want to add a thing or two:
You might be mixing together the Piscean and the Aquarian aeons.
We're right in the middle of the supernova phase of the
Piscean flooding, the occasional brilliance of a few
larger than life fish swimming very high up in the rarefied
ethers, while most of us unwashed fishes go through
the dodo, boulot, metro swimming in the murky flood of
infoglut, the latest greatest infomercials, and this very
social network part and parcel of this sea of infomercially
shortchanged desire and soundbites as well.
Aquarius is air. Reasoned, collective inquiry.
Twin rulership Saturn, conservatism and ring-pass-not,
and Uranus, ecccentricity, genius and bolts of enlightenment.
The metalogue here and there in tribe.net, is all about
that as well.
To really simplify:
If we participate and give your very best quality attention
and contribute our best thoughts into these typing boxes,
we're helping ushering in the Age of Aquarius.
If we skim through, half-dazed, flog our own listings,
and click through on the occasional ad to the far right ->>>>>
We are preserving the last gasps of the Piscean age.
It's a choice, and we are each and everyone, fully
responsible, and not choosing is also a choice. -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Sun, October 28, 2007 - 8:10 PM>>You might be mixing together the Piscean and the Aquarian aeons. <<
Good observation, John, but it's not really me. Aeons do mix together and there's hardly a sharp line between the Piscean and Aquarian age.
You're probably well aware that the Age of Pisces will not shot down as a sushi bar and open up in the morning as the Age of Aquarius.
Although devoted in Christian tone, I found this article useful in understanding this issue:
www.astrosoftware.com/Aquariu...sAge.htm -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Sun, October 28, 2007 - 8:33 PMwoWhey~
this thread is starting to smoke.
orisitjustme>
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 1:19 AMAuton, excellent!
I've chosen to add my preliminary further musings on this,
in your blog, an excellent blog btw:
people.tribe.net/e1f568fa-...7f7ff4e3c3
To provide connectivity with the Nostalgia/Piscean aeon of this thread,
One could describe both the Islamic Fundamentalists, and the areas where they are currently living,
and the areas where there is a preponderance of right wing conservative christians,
as strongholds of the increasingly dissipating Piscean Aeon.
Areas of broadband connectivity, particularly where there are people reading and engaging
in public/social/cultural/collective inquiry, are "Islands of the Future", places where the
zeitgeist of the Age of Aquarius is already present.
Typically, when an Aeon dies, at a certain stage in the Phoenix process it invokes
the Anima/Shadow aspect, which in this case is the opposite sign Virgo.
Shadowy, collectlvely unconscious Virgo, can be seen as obsessing over youthful
beauty, this beauty only skindeep, obsessing over "product" in all its ramifications,
and adding Piscean/Neptunian mass-media illusion, delusion and glamour to this mix,
how this is promulgated and peddled by the current most prevalent mantra:
the televised advert.
Shop(Virgo)-til-you-Drop(Pisces).
Carbs(Virgo) -> Bloat(Pisces).
The underlying mechanism of this carb and white sugar excess,
a regression, a nostalgia connected in many cases with a lost
innocence, a lost childhood, a distorted delusional remembrance
of days past when life was easier and simpler.
Instant semi-conscious gratification will fuck us all up. Now go click that link at your right ->>> <g> -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 1:28 AMthanks John.
i would lurrrve to hear about Gemini and how it relates to this.
thankshug, -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 1:41 AMThanks David,
the mutable cross consists of the four signs
Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces.
The nutshell global conflict right now is:
Externally:
The Gemini way of life, filling one's mind with the
latest greatest piece of info, and/or cool gadget
with which to be even more hyper-connected(Gemini)
The shadow side of this being currently much of this hyperactivity
being oil-driven (plastic fantastic) as well as nearly
co-opted by the military-industrial-economical machine,
in need of War&Conquest(Sagittarius) to keep the wheels
(SUV's and economy) spinning.
The internal landscape, which is at cross-angles to the above,
is the opposition between Pisces and Virgo.
Very simplified, Gemini iPods, Sagittarian Oil-Wars,
Virgoan Product obsession and Self-righteous Sagittarian foot-in-mouth fundamentalist religion
has high-jacked the mutable cross.
That said,
We need to de-simplify, we need to complexify things,
towards allowing for requisite variety, to allow for
seeing how there are paths through all of the above.
We need to reclaim the good parts of all of the above,
to dig up and save the ponies within all the abovementioned mulch.
Too much simplification often leading to despair, and or aggravation of conflict.
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 7:28 AM"One could describe both the Islamic Fundamentalists, and the areas where they are currently living, and the areas where there is a preponderance of right wing conservative christians, as strongholds of the increasingly dissipating Piscean Aeon.
Areas of broadband connectivity, particularly where there are people reading and engaging in public/social/cultural/collective inquiry, are 'Islands of the Future', places where the zeitgeist of the Age of Aquarius is already present."
I'm sorry, John, but I just can't buy this. Evolution (of the Darwinian variety) occurs when challenging environmental pressures are applied to a highly variable population. It's those flowers that push up between the cracks in the asphalt in patches of sun and shadow that have the most robust genes, not the ones that flourish in rich soils with plenty of rain and sunshine. I'm concerned that your characterization has an elitist tone, suggesting that the people on this planet who don't have telephones or TVs, much less fast computers with high-speed broadband, will not play a critical role in the expansion of consciousness. Proliferation is a necessary part of reproduction, which is a critical part of the evolutionary process, but I suspect your "Islands of the Future" will also become islands of complacency and stagnation.
I started this thread after reading a few chapters of José Arguelles' 1975 book "The Transformative Vision" and having a sensation of deja vu, not so much because this material took me back to the 1970s (which it did), but because so much of what Arguelles was saying in 1975 sounded *exactly* like the rhetoric I've encountered on 2012-centered discussion threads more than 30 years later! That's not surprising, given the preoccupation with cycles, but there is a stark, sobering contrast between what has been accomplished in science, medicine, and engineering (not to mention knowledge of the ancient Maya) between 1975 and today and what has NOT been accomplished in realms of metaphysical thinking, which seems to keep repeating itself.
What bothers me most is that it seems to be offering stereotypes as if they were explanations. The interpretation of astrological signs is capricious, arbitrary, and subjective. Each astrological sign becomes an inkblot upon which one can free associate and then claim insight after the fact. However, this process does more to reveal individual prejudices and the extent to which specific people share them than anything else. The facilitates the perpetuation of stereotypes and false perceptions and leads to "final" solutions. This is how the Third Reich got started. We sure as hell don't need something like that again!
The analytical process has to be deeper yet: Why are you making specific associations with astrological signs, Tarot cards, tea leaves, or other devices for tapping into the subconscious? How can you free your subconscious of stereotypes so that they don't compromise the quality of your intuition? What is the best way to discover knowledge that is timeless and enduring, rather than something that will be revealed as narrow and dated within a year or two?
Don't ever forget the dark side of the force. Both shame and nostalgia are powerful tools that can be seriously abused. You know already that they've been the the tools of torturers at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Resist the tempation for generalization and groupthink, retain distance and perspective, and cultivate skills of critical thinking. These may be the only things that protect you.
"The underlying mechanism of this carb and white sugar excess, a regression, a nostalgia connected in many cases with a lost innocence, a lost childhood, a distorted delusional remembrance of days past when life was easier and simpler."
All of this is true, but it's such a powerful tool that it is being used by both "Pisceans" AND "Aquarians". You need to step outside of this process altogether, see it for what it is, and then realize that you're using it yourself.
All of this "Age of Aquarius" stuff is, like, so 1968. What was it *really* like?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968...ts_of_1968 -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 9:03 AMJohn you ignorant slut. www.youtube.com/watch
Archetypes are what this world is made of. They come and they go and certainly are cyclical in nature. 12 signs, 12 apostles, 12 tribes, the list goes on and on. To infer that this is prejudice that leads to holocaust is just plain intellectual laziness. What you term as metaphysical thinking repeating itself is another ring of hyperlogic drivng toward that singular center. Remember the show Time-Tunnel with the circles within circles?
I'm digging this thread. -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 9:13 AM
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 8:21 AMHeh, (on the video) we do tend to enjoy these skirmishes, right?
And I believe this is core of what might be talked about in this tribe.
The archetypes, and how we might forge new narratives that doesn't bind us.
Doesn't bind us so as to go "Bush is evil".
Doesn't bind us so as to knock Luv&Lighters with our superior reasoning and intellect.
Doesn't bind us so as to go around screaming "Hell and Tarnation and Apocalypse and Cataclysm!"
Doesn't bind us so as to go too deep into the occult consorting of the enlightenment demi-gods.
Doesn't bind us so as to go flogging our hammer meet nail, universal solvent and solution.
Forge new narratives that doesn't bind us.
Oh, and in case I haven't been clear, astrology is not to be believed in.
It is far too dangerous to do so, and I have some experiential insights here,
having been a consulting astrologer for twenty years. Not. To. Be. Believed. In.
That said, it needs to be studied, so as to allow us to relate to the realm of arche.
Otherwise our narratives will be too shallow, to scientifically devoid of psyche,
or too much of a parroting of the latest greatest cult-simplification - uplift,
now in three easy bullet point steps.
We need to study, learn, have differences of opinion, yet meet somewhere
beyond all our personal narratives and idiosyncracies.
Forging a convivial narrative. An open center that holds. Networked islands of
the future, honouring those ancient hours of sunlight still there in the old
stories, still there underneath the sands of middle east.
Forge new narratives that doesn't bind us. -
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JOhn Kellden's last post
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 8:48 PMmyohmy that got me wet.
again again again again
hugbinds,
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 9:31 AM>>>Areas of broadband connectivity, particularly where there are people reading and engaging in public/social/cultural/collective inquiry, are 'Islands of the Future',<<<
you know, when i read this it didn't even cross my mind that John might have meant 'broadband connectivity' in its technological connotation... i was thinking like noospheric intuition and interpreted 'Islands in the Future' as being earth-integrated garden communities. interesting reflection to then read Hoopes seemingly leap to conclusion that some technocratic elitism exists in these words!
>>>there is a stark, sobering contrast between what has been accomplished in science, medicine, and engineering (not to mention knowledge of the ancient Maya) between 1975 and today and what has NOT been accomplished in realms of metaphysical thinking, which seems to keep repeating itself.<<<
if it doesn't have to do with linear material progress and complexification i don't wanna know. tradition, perennial wisdom... losers need to invent something new
>>>What bothers me most is that it seems to be offering stereotypes as if they were explanations. The interpretation of astrological signs is capricious, arbitrary, and subjective. Each astrological sign becomes an inkblot upon which one can free associate and then claim insight after the fact. However, this process does more to reveal individual prejudices and the extent to which specific people share them than anything else. The facilitates the perpetuation of stereotypes and false perceptions and leads to "final" solutions. This is how the Third Reich got started. We sure as hell don't need something like that again!<<<
a suspicious and frightening case: when i was little all around me people used these totally subjective and biased designations in a highly codified, abstract manner in order to place boundaries to my mind and ultimately manipulate and control me. is am not alone here. this has never stopped. the state of affairs is rarely questioned. it is simply accepted by the sheep. language. baaa baaa baaa what the hell are you talking about? words are meaningless, unless you're a nazi!
actually, if you're a poet you're probly an abusive derelict anyway
www.youtube.com/watch
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 10:02 AMDarwinism and the evolution theory- finally- may go down the drain in the near future.
It is interesting to see, how the brainwashed "scientists" are reacting when the dogma is attacked from an unfamiliar angle.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_on_Trial
Highly recommended to read the review of Stephen Jay Gould and Johnsons response.
Some other stuff:
Shattering the Myths of Darwinism by Richard Milton
www.amazon.com/Shattering...916-8197669
Forbidden Archeology by Michael A. Cremo
www.amazon.com/Forbidden-...916-8197669 -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 7:34 AMAuton,
I've been saying for a while now that New Age perspectives have a lot in common with religious fundamentalisms. It's fascinating and ironic that you first mention "brainwashed" scientists and then cite references to anti-Darwinian rhetoric, especially Michael Cremo.
Here are some autobiographical notes from Cremo:
"In 1968 I left college and went to Europe on a voyage of self-discovery. I took a boat from Haifa to Istanbul, where the pull toward the East was so strong that I found myself heading overland to India. I got as far as Tehran, lost my nerve, and turned back.
"After carefully studying the Bhagavad-gita, a gift of some Hare Krishna people at a Grateful Dead concert, I decided that I should absorb myself in the yoga of devotion to the mysterious Lord Krishna. Later I moved to Los Angeles to join the staff of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and to write for the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust (BBT). By 1980 I was regarded as an accomplished writer. To date, the books written and edited by myself and other BBT staff have sold more than ten million copies and have been translated into many languages.
"With Dr. Richard L. Thompson, a founding member of the Bhaktivedanta Institute, I began a series of books aimed at both scholarly and popular audiences. The first to be published was Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race. This book shows that archaeologists and anthropologists, over the past one hundred and fifty years, have accumulated vast amounts of evidence showing that humans like ourselves have existed on this planet for tens of millions of years. We show how this evidence has been suppressed, ignored, and forgotten because it contradicts generally-held ideas about human evolution."
www.mcremo.com/cremo.htm
I don't mean to knock the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, but there are many people would would not choose the "Hare Krishna" movement as a counterpoint to brainwashing.
Your characterization of Darwinism as "dogma" aligns you ideologically not only with the Hare Krishna movement, but also Christian and Muslim fundamentalism, all of which are good examples of real dogma at work. It's odd to find that you share some beliefs not only with Cremo, but also Dr. Dino (evangelical Christianity) and Harun Yahya (fundamentalist Islam):
www.drdino.com
www.harunyahya.com
After you've considered these perpectives, I hope you'll give thoughtful consideration to the scientific arguments:
www.talkorigins.org
I don't think Darwinian theory is going down the drain any time soon. -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 8:18 AMplz
it is such a dogma why try to deny it?
even if it is 'true' most people who believe in it don't really know why, other than the 'experts' say so and it seems intuitively logical
i don't really think neo-darwinians are anywhere near describing the fundamental factors behind the creation of life, but i used to buy into the dogma and i'm still pretty sympathetic to it... i mean i read about it a lot and stuff and i accept their data as being valid
it's the conclusions that lack... they're meaningless outside of giving over-educated people a reason to feel smart.
if you think you know what makes humans human and you only intellectually rationalize it without personally fully experiencing it you are buying dogma, be it occultism or scientism
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 11:29 AM"i don't really think neo-darwinians are anywhere near describing the fundamental factors behind the creation of life"
I don't distinguish between Darwinians and "neo-Darwinians", but if you don't think they're getting near, you may not have considered what Craig Venter (a neo-Frankenstenian?) has been up to:
"I am creating artificial life, declares US gene pioneer"
www.guardian.co.uk/science/...atechange
"if you think you know what makes humans human and you only intellectually rationalize it without personally fully experiencing it...."
I guarantee you that I personally and fully experience what it means to be human in every moment of my consciousness, and I've been doing so for as long as I can remember.
I don't think you understand what "dogma" means:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma
Scientists doubt and dispute beliefs, doctrines, and authorities (especially themselves) as a fundamental component of the practice of science. They always have and always will. In fact, they get the biggest prizes for coming up with ideas that nobody ever had before and for proving that what was previously thought to be true was wrong. -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 11:38 AMmost people who buy the scientism dogma are not scientists
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 2:33 PMSpicing up the thread? Why not.
Interesting to see that while you provide some resources on fundemantal Christianity and Islam, you somehow "forget" to mention the third Abrahamic religion. Surely, Jews are "genetically immune" to fundamentalism and Zionism is just a trick of the mind...Try to be at least a little bit unbiased when you're presenting the case against me as a fundamentalist.
Your method of bringing up biographic data about someone who presented some of the flaws of the officially accepted version about our origin, is typical. That's the reason I recommended to read both Stephen Jay Gould's and Johnson's response too. When everything else fails, the scientist gets personal and makes up a mockery to thrash anything that dosen't fit into picture. The favorite heretic term is "unscientific".
Darwinism, in fact, has already gone down the drain for many of us; the flaws of carbon dating system, the debate over what really a "species" means, the fact, that natural selection cannot form a new species etc. convinced many scientists and fundamentalists like me, that something really stinks with the evolution theory.
"A very large yet undefined extension may safely be given to the direct and indirect results of natural selection; but I now admit...that in the earlier editions of my Origin of Species I probably attributed too much the the action of natural selection or the survival of the fittest... I had not formerly sufficiently considered the existence of many structures which appear to be, as far as we can judge, neither beneficial nor injurious, and this I believe to be one of the greatest oversights as yet detected in my work"- Charles Darwin, The Descent Of Man
In plain English, the fact that 300 million flies are feasting on huge pile of bullcrap, doesn't mean that it tastes good.
A theory will remain a dogma until it is presented as a fact and the only acceptable version that shouldn't be disputed.
While the wikipedia entry nicely describes the dogma in religion, it fails to provide anything about the dogmas in science...
The links that you provided about the pop-corn Evangelism and "fundamental" Islam has nothing to do with the real essence and spirit of either Christianity or Islam. I do not associate with any of the organised-institutional religions, but gosh, I had some quite mindblowing vegan food in the Krishna temple a few years ago in Budapest.
The real fundamentalism in 2007 is the liberal-anarchism blended with material scientifism that's ripping apart the living Soul of this planet. -
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Spice is nice
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 3:52 PMWell, we were also discussing Hindu anti-evolutionism. Here's one of my favorite references to other Creationist perspectives:
Strange Creations, by Donna Kossy
www.amazon.com/Strange-Cr.../0922915652
I'll be the first to admit that I haven't had as much exposure to Jewish anti-evolutionism as I have to either the Christian or Islamic varieties. Probably because they haven't been as aggressive as Michael Cremo or the others (Harun Yahya has been sending thousands of copies of his anti-evolutionary magnum opus to my anthropological colleagues.)
If you've got a link to a website on Jewish Creationism, please go ahead and share it. In the meantime, here's a relevant Wikipedia entry:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewi..._evolution
Jews are hardly immune to fundamentalism. However, I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that this manifests itself in anywhere near as significant a way as either Christian or Islamic creationism (the U.S. and Turkey now lead the world in rejection of Darwinian theory).
"Darwinism, in fact, has already gone down the drain for many of us; the flaws of carbon dating system, the debate over what really a 'species' means, the fact, that natural selection cannot form a new species etc. convinced many scientists and fundamentalists like me, that something really stinks with the evolution theory."
Well, you're certainly not alone. There's a new museum in Kentucky that's dedicated to critiquing all of these things.
www.creationmuseum.org
There are also polls to show that your perpective is actually quite common in the U.S.:
www.religioustolerance.org/ev_publi.htm
However, I and the majority of scientists who understand things like radiocarbon dating and natural selection in detail don't come to the same conclusions as you.
"In plain English, the fact that 300 million flies are feasting on huge pile of bullcrap, doesn't mean that it tastes good."
It's all a matter of perspective. For those 300 million flies, it's absolutely delicious. Do you think humans aren't enjoyng the bullshit that most of them are swallowing, too?
"A theory will remain a dogma until it is presented as a fact and the only acceptable version that shouldn't be disputed."
That's bullshit. Not only do you not understand the meaning of "dogma", but you don't understand the meaning of "theory".
"While the wikipedia entry nicely describes the dogma in religion, it fails to provide anything about the dogmas in science..."
Okay, what do YOU consider to be the "dogmas" in science? What are the beliefs that science considers to be forbidden to question or change? What are the institutions that make science "dogmatic"? Do you really imagine that scientists are not constantly striving to critique and challenge their own basic assumptions? That's how science advances!
"The links that you provided about the pop-corn Evangelism and 'fundamental' Islam has nothing to do with the real essence and spirit of either Christianity or Islam."
I never said that they did. They are extreme points of view that I presented as examples of dogma, along with my comment that Michael Cremo's arguments are colored by the dogma of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (which in turn is probably not representative of the essence and spirit of Hinduism).
"I do not associate with any of the organised-institutional religions, but gosh, I had some quite mindblowing vegan food in the Krishna temple a few years ago in Budapest."
A point on which we can agree! Yes, those devotees of Krishna sure do know how to make delicious meals. -
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Re: Spice is nice
Wed, October 31, 2007 - 8:41 AMOh, I feel deeply misunderstood. Vulgar-creationism is yet another dead end in the scientific methods trying to approach the question of our origin. Actually, Creationism is more philosophical than biological explanation. The offsprings in the US and Turkey are all based on the philosophy of Carl von Linne, Georges Cuvier and Jean Louis Rodolphe Agassiz even if they were all biologists.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Agassiz
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Cuvier
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolus_Linnaeus
None of them accepted the evolutional theory, but their views - par excellence- as Creationism are unacceptable.
We may talk about Creationism in an etymological way as an adequate way of "creation-version"
Autotransmutation is probably the best way to define the real process; namely that the species, the cosmos, the people, the nature and everything else is emanating from Myself as a metaphysical Principle based on a theurgical-magical Self-transmutating/Self-transformating action/process, while I Myself in Myself will remain unchanged or infinite.
The foundational mistake of science is to take the material (prima materia) as the only existing principle of creation.
First of all, we are unable to experience the prima materia- mainly because it is impossible to experience it. Prima materia in it's original meaning is the Nothingness, the substancial foundation of any material, however it is "activated" by the spirit providing form and meaning.
Materia is eventually created as a reaction from the manifestation of the essential form-giving spirit (Purusha).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purusa
Also, the materia cannot be considered as One or the initial reason for all manifestating existence. Materia is a sort of "pre-creational" or "pre-existencial" condition and as a Magna Mater Genetrix (or Great Goddes) emanating all the existing lifeforms, but always as a reaction to the male-masculin charged divine Spirit. Hence the value for the materia as two and the spirit as one in gnostic numerology.
The autotransmutation of the material is never implicit due to its passive nature- and this is what's important-, but controlled by my metaphysical Self. According to the Brhadáranyaka-upanisad I create Myself, in a way to create first something that is Not-Myself- the female principle, the Nothing. Compared to this Nothing, I will become Something, a metaphysical Self or God. Every possible lifeform, based on these two principles, are the modalities of Myself.
Materialism is the form of monism- everthing, eventually can be reduced to materia. This belief is equally wrong just as the other extreme that is claimed by spiritualism (ie. the Spirit is the only principle of creation). According to the most ancient doctrines, there is a Principium Principorum or a principle before and beyond every principles that transcends both the materia and the spirit. This is the metaphysical Zero; the unity beyond duality of existence and non-existence.
This is the universal, non-manifestating metaphysical Absolute. This isn't the Self anymore, because we can talk about the Self until there is an opposing Not-Myself which is an ontological dreaming, an illusion that will completely dissolve in the completed and perfected Awareness. -
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Re: Spice is nice
Wed, October 31, 2007 - 8:53 AMAlso, if you want to plug into the traditional-metaphysical version of our origin and prefer the Jewish way, I can highly recommed the works of Leo Schaya.
www.worldwisdom.com/Public/A...etail.asp
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Re: Spice is nice
Wed, October 31, 2007 - 9:14 AMSorry about the misunderstanding. What I was responding to was your supposed contrast between scientific "brainwashing" and Michael Cremo's "Forbidden Archaeology", as well as your anti-evolution comments. I didn't mean to imply that you were a Creationist, only that your anti-Darwinian stance had much in common with fundamentalist reconstructions of the human past.
The fact that modern evolutionary biology has refuted the erroneous interpretations of Linneas, Cuvier, and Agassiz--all of whom were hugely respected scientists in their day--is one of the best demonstrations that science is NOT dogma.
"The foundational mistake of science is to take the material (prima materia) as the only existing principle of creation."
I don't think this is a mistake of science, though it may be one of scientism:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism
As TreeFrog pointed out, scientists do not necessarily subscribe to scientism, nor is scientism part of the practice of science.
You are confusing materialism and scientism with science. They are different things.
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Re: Spice is nice
Thu, November 1, 2007 - 12:58 PM>>You are confusing materialism and scientism with science. They are different things.<<
I hear you. They are different, however deeply interconnected . No scientism or modern materialism would exist without science, just like no religion, whether peaceful or fundamental could exist without spiritualism.
I have no intention to beat this horse anymore, especially considering that from the perspective of modernity we are in the same boat.
You try to protect and stick to a method that is antique, being skeptic in healthy measures, apply critical thinking and see beyond the naive realism. I'm sticking to a method that is archaic, even from the perspective of science. Perennial knowledge was not "discovered" or "invented" or a "hypothesis" of an individual (much as science works) but eternal, atemporal and universal. The fact that in this temporal-historical phase is not manifesting directly, but rather indirectly or partially is perfectly described in all ancient cosmogonies. Kali-yuga or Iron-age when this Knowledge is "faded" in the consciousness of humankind, but doesn't mean, it is lost, left behind or become obsolete. For those, who think the new or upcoming aeon will be "better" I would remind them that by any calculation we're in the thick of the Kali-yuga and it will rumble on for a few thousands years.
On the note of the much debated New Age phenomenon; the influence by the fundamental religions (or even fundamental science) is not so much a problem as much as the ability to strip everything or anything from it's original value. New Age is able to incorporate virtually anything into it's system, let it be ancient wisdom or the achievement of the modern science. However ,instead of keeping these in their original context, it will nivellate (will level down) to a "digestible" level for anyone, anywhere. That's how you can become a shaman (pseudo-shaman) or a Sufi mystic by paying the fees for the appropriate course that will "make you wonders" in a couple of days.
This integrating force of the New Age is so powerful that many, even with the right instinct and intention, won't notice how much they are influenced by this "philosophy". And at times, I'm no exception.
To add another thought on the dichotomy of science and religion, I think the time might be near, when both of these "old" paradigms may happen to be transcended by something that is possibly located in the whole 2012 hassle. We are, by any means, on the dead end: science has developed a huge self-destructive potential (when a nuclear physicist was asked, how we gonna fight the third world war, said,
dunno, but the fourth with a club) and the religions -that are initially rooted in the metaphysical traditions, but deviated so far, we can't recognize them anymore- are unable to provide the force to keep the show running.
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 4:13 PM"Instant semi-conscious gratification will fuck us all up. Now go click that link at your right ->>> <g>"
Now is anyone else overdosing on Ilianowear Ads?
Talk about 1975...throw some platform heels on that girl and let's do the hustle!
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Tue, October 30, 2007 - 8:28 PMLet's also not forget that we are coming to the tail end of the mutual reception of Uranus in Pisces and Neptune in Aquarius which has contributed to this tug of war between the two eras.
When Uranus hits Aries and Neptune finds it home in Pisces, we should be firing up the new Aquarian vibe with all the shaking, rattling and rolling one would expect - especially with Pluto moving from Sag to Capricorn. It will certainly be a good time for John Hoopes as Pluto will be unearthing much that has been hidden in them there hills and with much surprise given the square to Uranus. Ancient civilizations blowing up Darwinian assumptions -- perhaps.
Shifting sands no doubt as institutional lynchpins are melted away eliminating the worn and outdated. Scapegoating reaches a new level of art as there is enough blame to go around. The last throes of the Pisces era play out in an endless morphing of victimizer and victimized role reversals - the who dunnit becomes the who cares when finger pointing burnout cracks open the hardened heart to catch a glimpse of the cleansing power and warmth of true forgiveness which comes from a point of final desparation - futility of playing the blame(d) game. -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 31, 2007 - 6:19 AMThe who-dunnit post, one of the best I've ever seen Steve!
Pluto, the lord of the netherworld, also signifies riches.
When these riches are anchored and embodied, through
un-earthing and rebirthing the current shallow highjacking of Capricorn,
this will provide us with an abundance of prima materia.
Which both will transform us as vessels, if we allow this
inner crucible, as well as generationally forge a new
more anchored, more solid zeitgeist. Although un-
earthing more than a few seemingly strange gems.
Gaia is a master here, wrt to forging gems, through
a combination of intense heat and intense pressure.
Much of what makes us solid, is due to our carbon-base.
Carbon, when transformed, the diamond-body.
All this not at all true in any scientific sense.
But who knows, it might come in handy...
It also might behoove us to remember that an
old symbol for Capricorn, is the goat-fish. Oannes. -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 31, 2007 - 7:08 AMAstro-counseling!
Should I buy a lottery ticket, guys? -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 31, 2007 - 7:11 AMNah, Gnothi Seauton is a good enough bet in my book. <g>
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 31, 2007 - 7:15 AMOannes - quite a character www.theosophical.ca/IranianO...sNDK.html
Interesting this comes up as the debate over bombing Iran continues. What else do we remember about 1975..how about the lines at the gas stations one year before. Early warning that our Oil is running out. Did we heed it? -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Wed, October 31, 2007 - 9:02 AM"Early warning that our Oil is running out. Did we heed it?"
Excellent observation, Steven! The oil crisis was actually in 1973, and provided a clear heads-up about things to come:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis
It stimulated some possible solutions but also initiated processes that resulted in other problems.
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 3:31 PMtwo other things happened in january 1974 it was the year that chimps were observed raiding and killing bordering groups of chimps, and i was born. -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Sat, October 27, 2007 - 8:46 PMthanks ferrara... thats what I thought too... I lived in Jackassville and worked at CSuX they moved their network support to baltimore and offered me shitloads of money to go there... instead I moved back to Austria... maybe the best decision of my life...
Still dont know what it has to do with Hoopes very intersting topic but its funny as hell... -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, October 29, 2007 - 6:38 AM"Still dont know what it has to do with Hoopes"
Well, I was born and grew up in Baltimore, which I suspect has had more of an influence on my perception than anything astrological.
youtube.com/watch
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Birth of a Meme
Sun, November 23, 2008 - 9:34 PMHere's another 1975 publication that is probably central to the origin of the 2012 mythos: Frank Waters' book Mexico Mystique: The Coming Sixth World of Consciousness (Sage Books, 1975).
Here's what Waters wrote:
"The Mayan cyclical pattern, based on multiples of fifty-two, also contains catastrophic implications. At the end of the Calendar Round cycle of 52 years, when the solar year and sacred year calendars coincided, the people extinguished all their fires, lamented and fasted, believing that the world would be destroyed. The end of two of these cycles every 104 years, when the cycles of the solar, sacred, and Venus calendars coincided, was also of a catastrophic significance. Of the end of the Great Cycle of 5,200 years there was no doubt; a catastrophe would completely destroy the world. Four previous worlds have been so destroyed, the present world being the fifth. The duration of these five worlds, granting each a life-span of 5,200 years, totals 26,000 years; and this closely approximates the great 25,920-year cycle of the precession of the equinoxes.
On the assumption that the Maya Great Cycle, comprising 13 baktuns or 5,200 years and beginning on August 12, 3113 B.C., marked the end of the Fourth World and the beginning of the Fifth World, one would expect that great catastrophe attested by Nahuatl-Mayan myth. The end of the Great Cycle, and the Fifth World, according to the same Goodman-Martínez-Thompson correlation, will occur on December 24, 2011 A.D., and it too will be destroyed by catastrophic earthquakes."
(from the chapter "The Great Cycle: Its Projected Beginning" in Mexico Mystique, pp. 257-258)
Waters also had an astrological chart drawn for "the projected end of the Great Cycle on A.D. December 24, 2011", to which he devotes a whole chapter, "The Great Cycle: Its Projected End" in Mexico Mystique.
Frank Waters was certainly an infuential personality:
www.frankwaters.org
I didn't appreciate his central role in the emergence of the 2012 meme until recently. Waters tied the 13.0.0.0.0 4 Ajaw 8 Cumku date together with Hopi prophecies and even belief in the lost continent of Atlantis! (Although his early scholarship was quite good, he appears to have "lost it" by the time he undertook this project.)
For those who are interested, the book's still in print:
www.amazon.com/Mexico-Mys...0804009228/
However, the original publication date was 1975, not 1989. No wonder so much of this 2012 stuff seems so 1970s. It is! -
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Re: Birth of a Meme
Sun, November 23, 2008 - 9:38 PMBTW, the date Waters uses, December 24, 2011, seems to come from p. 149 of the first edition of Michael Coe's book The Maya (1966). Waters doesn't cite Coe, but the date has a couple of errors (Dec. 24 instead of 21 or 23 and 2011 instead of 2012) that it's hard to believe would have been duplicated independently.
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Re: Birth of a Meme
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 2:07 AMpp:Of the end of the Great Cycle of 5,200 years there was no doubt; a catastrophe would completely destroy the world. Four previous worlds have been so destroyed, the present world being the fifth. The duration of these five worlds, granting each a life-span of 5,200 years, totals 26,000 years; and this closely approximates the great 25,920-year cycle of the precession of the equinoxes. 934pm sunday
gee, sounds a tad bit familiar... -
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Re: Birth of a Meme
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 11:01 AM"gee, sounds a tad bit familiar..."
There's a big difference between discovering and generating *new* knowledge and repeating the same old "knowledge" over and over again. However, the appeal of nostalgia as well as the thrill of encountering the "esoteric" will continue to give legs to what Borders bookstore shelves (and sells) as "Speculation" and "Metaphysics".
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Sun, November 23, 2008 - 10:07 PMAnother link to some powerful nostalgia (especially for me): 1975 was the year that I enrolled in a course at hippy/mystic artist Bob Hieronimus' Aquarian University of Maryland (AUM) in Baltimore. "Dr. Bob" is still on the scene in a venue that's beautifully germane to this tribe:
21stcenturyradio.com
This year was the 40th anniversary of the release of the Beatles' classic animated film "Yellow Submarine". If you're not familiar with it, check out Dr. Bob's trippy scholarship:
21stcenturyradio.com/yellowsub/
The themes are very 2012y. -
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Nostalgia as anchoring?
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 2:37 AMIt's a very human trait, trying to make sense of the world. The essential, crucial gem of science,
is the skepticism coupled with falsifying and then buildling upon the rest.
The myths and zeitgeists currently flourishing, doesn't lend themselves all that easily to formal
scrutiny. -
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Re: Nostalgia as anchoring?
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 2:42 AMjo jo
can we be serious
ok, for just a minute
do you believe the moon rotates on its axis?
beware, before you answer this and you can pass
as most do...
your intelligence will be held
accountable
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Re: Nostalgia as anchoring?
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 10:57 AMI think they lend themselves to formal scrutiny just fine. Unfortunately, most formal scholars don't want to touch them with a 10-foot pole. They mostly just smile, click away, turn the page, change the channel, or pick a different movie.
There are some excellent books out there on the subject of pseudoarchaeology. One of them is:
Archaeological Fantasies: How Pseudoarchaeology Misrepresents the Past and Misleads the Public, edited by Garrett Fagan
books.google.com/books
www.amazon.com/Archaeolog.../0415305934
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 10:38 AMBut most importanly, UNIX time began in Jan 1 1975 -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 11:11 AMThe growth of computer networks played a critical role in replicating and spreading memes central to the 2012 mythos.
I remember browsing an early iteration of The Maya Astronomy Page in 1995 with Mosaic 1.0
www.michielb.nl/maya/
I'm pretty sure it was the first graphics-based website on which you could calculate out the December 21, 2012 date, though DOS-based programs like MayaCal 1.0 were available for download before that.
The SkyGlobe software Linda Schele used for the interpretations she published in Maya Cosmos (1993) is still available for download:
www.sidewalkastronomy.com/skyglobe.html
Of course, this was two decades later...
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 12:09 PMHoopes, maybe you can shed some light on something I noticed one time about the layout of mayan villages...
I was watching a show on TV(don't remember which one, was a couple of years back) but I saw them drawing out a villiage they had found in the jungle to show where everything was underneath the jungle growth. For an instant, they showed the drawing of the community, village, and it looked like one of the pictures that I always see in Mayan glips. Just wondered if there is anything about this or was I just seeing something that wasn't there? Because it looked like the layout of the village made a design that I thought at the time must have some meaning in itself...
Just wondering.
Because if the layout of the viliages makes part of their writings, I would be curious to what it says.
This is hard to explain but are you catching what I'm saying? -
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 12:22 PMnice thread, hoopes and everybody!
I have to come back and finish reading it later, alligator
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, November 24, 2008 - 4:20 PMYes, I think I know what you're asking. You may have been seeing something that wasn't there. I can't think of any Maya settlements that were arranged in a layout similar to a glyph, but there were definitely principles of layout AND glyphs that reflected the same ideas. One of these is represented by the glyph for "k'an", which represents a center and four corners (a quincunx). This quincunx was frequently duplicated in architectural groupings, though I can't think of any whole sites that were laid out using this principle.
The ancient city of Teotihuacan was laid out using a strict grid centered on a cross-like structure that probably represented the "center of the cosmos" in ancient Mesoamerican thought.
archaeology.asu.edu/teo/
archaeology.asu.edu/teo/intr...tymp2.htm
However, it's not in the rainforest, but in the highlands of central Mexico (near Mexico City).
Since the scribes may have been involved in architectural planning, I suppose it's *possible* that organizational principles in Maya hieroglyphic writing were encoded in architecture. I just haven't seen an example of it yet.
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A message from March 1975
Thu, April 9, 2009 - 11:03 PM"What religions have sought to understand since the beginning of their origin is what is above the human level of existence. Most have taught that if an individual lives a 'good life' adoring some savior that he will inherit some 'heaven' after his death. Only if it were that simple. That viewpoint is as inaccurate as the caterpillar believing that if he dies a good caterpillar he will mysteriously awaken in a rose blossom and live there forever with the King butterfly. He must become a butterfly while a healthy caterpillar - overcoming his decaying option. If he rises above all caterpillar ways, converts all his energies to the pursuit of becoming literally another creature who circulates in another world, he becomes a butterfly. Likewise a human who seeks only to become a member of his next evolutionary kingdom may become a member of that kingdom if he completely overcomes all the aspects and influences of the human level providing he has found favor with a member of that next level who will direct him through his metamorphosis. As the caterpillar, the human can complete this changeover only before his death as a human. A member of the next kingdom finds favor with one who is willing to endure all of the necessary growing pains of weaning himself totally from his human condition. Members of that next kingdom are no more confined to human limitations than butterflies to caterpillar limitations. Nor do they in like comparison concern themselves with human-type indulgences or concerns. However, if the human is thought of as the larva of that next kingdom then there are, at times, those who are approaching the completion of their individual metamorphosis and are beginning to have some of the attributes and characteristics of that next kingdom. When the metamorphosis is complete their "perennial" and cyclic nature is ended for their 'new' body has overcome decay, disease and death. It has converted over chemically, biologically, and in vibration to the 'new' creature.
"Approximately 2,000 years ago an individual of that next kingdom forfeited his body of that kingdom and entered a human female's womb, thereby incarnating as the one history refers to as Jesus of Nazareth. He awakened to this fact gradually through the same metamorphic process and came to know that he had incarnated for the express purpose of telling and showing, even to the point of proof, that the next kingdom can be entered by overcoming the human aspects and literally converting into a 'man' or creature of that next kingdom - the kingdom of his Father - one who is already a member of that kingdom. By His resurrection He proved that death can be literally overcome and that a permanent body for the next kingdom is acquired from the human kingdom. He did not leave His body in the grave. He converted it into His body of that next kingdom. This is the only way the next kingdom is entered permanently. Each human has that full potential. Jesus' 'Christing' or christening was completed at His transfiguration (metamorphic completion) and He remained in the 'larva' environment, with other humans, only for some 40 days to show that His teaching had been accomplished. He showed them His new body and demonstrated a few of its new attributes, i.e., appearing and disappearing (changing His vibrations) before their eyes while letting some of His friends touch His 'new' body. This could be compared to a butterfly remaining in the caterpillar world for a few days to show them what they had to look forward to if they chose to seek true conscious communication with a butterfly and were willing to overcome all of their caterpillar ways. Then Jesus left them in a cloud of light (what humans refer to as UFOs) and moves and returns in the same manner.
"There are two individuals here now who have also come from that next kingdom, incarnate as humans, awakened, and will soon demonstrate the same proof of overcoming death. They are 'sent' from that kingdom by the 'Father' to bear the same truth that was Jesus'. This is like a repeat performance, except this time by two (a man and a woman) to restate the truth Jesus bore, restore its accurate meaning, and again show that any individual who seeks that kingdom will find it through the same process. This 're-statement' or demonstration will happen within months. The two who are the 'actors' in this 'theatre' are in the meantime doing all they can to relate this truth as accurately as possible so that when their bodies recover from their 'dead' state (resurrection) and they leave (UFO's) those left behind will have clearly understood the formula.
"Those who can believe this process and do it will be 'lifted up' individually and "saved" from death - literally. If you seek those two while they are here they will gladly fill you in on the details and assist those who wish to follow in this 'path.'
"If this speaks to you - respond - according to your capabilities or needs. For your sake - give this opportunity your best."
www.heavensgate.com/book/2-2.htm
www.heavensgate.com/book/2-1.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heav...ate_(cult)
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Re: 1975 & 2012
Mon, May 18, 2009 - 11:02 AMAnother 1975 connection...
"For those of you who have read my books, and/or attended my lectures, you already know that after my near death experience in 1975, I returned from the Heavens with exceptional gifts, and more than one hundred visions of the future."
www.dannion.com
2012: The Online Movie
video.google.com/videoplay
