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This thread is for discussing anything you want, especially if it has something to do with Daniel Pinchbeck's book, "2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl," available from Amazon.com:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585424838
It began here: 2012.tribe.net/thread/348...928cc2aa858
then went here: 2012.tribe.net/thread/bb2...aa9b861e67d
and then here: 2012.tribe.net/thread/046...4eeda34f0a7
I haven't got a clue where it's going next, but this is NOT the coolest thread on Tribe.
www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585424838
It began here: 2012.tribe.net/thread/348...928cc2aa858
then went here: 2012.tribe.net/thread/bb2...aa9b861e67d
and then here: 2012.tribe.net/thread/046...4eeda34f0a7
I haven't got a clue where it's going next, but this is NOT the coolest thread on Tribe.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, June 28, 2006 - 10:42 PMhave ya'll noticed that there's four threads on this tribe all with 'Quetzalcoatl' in the subjectline?
that's freakin' me out hey!
i can't wait til we get to the (revisited) version. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, June 29, 2006 - 7:40 AMIt's the whole "cut and run" tactic. Let's send Hoopes to the Mayan Biosphere Reserve and see what they think of cut and run.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, June 29, 2006 - 2:10 PMLet's start another one for kicks! -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, June 29, 2006 - 5:00 PMWell, there is another one:
2012.tribe.net/thread/0ee...35c96985792
(It was started by Daniel after I'd already started the thread that has elongated into this one.)
Since Drew came in a little bit late, I'd like to remind him that this is all just one long thread. It was carried over into the first continuation at the suggestion of Ferrara, who pointed out that it got a bit difficult to follow the various internal twists and turns once there were more than about 120 messages. There's no cutting and running here, just the same old same old.
Any complaints should be added to the Loads of Crap thread:
2012.tribe.net/thread/04b...5db2f99ea5a
(Extend it if you want, but I'm not gonna.)
Any aberrant expressions of blissful agreement can be added to Jamesye's experimental thread, which (as predicted) sank like a stone:
2012.tribe.net/thread/29b...46e63ef759d -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, June 29, 2006 - 5:15 PMHere's a repost of some insightful thoughts from Light that quickly got buried in the previous thread. What's beautiful about her words is that the main point applies equally well to both sides of the debate:
"thats what i would do if i wanted external power
make them think it's their idea
make it fit into their view of the world
stroke the ego tell them how great they are
how awesome their service is
get them on myside
hook them to my ring of power
until it becomes self-sustaining
and society a reflection of my ego"
___
here is the rub
you don't have to believe in energy
it exists with or with out you witnessing or believing...
Shamnism/Mysticism/occultism/Buddhism/Hinduism
all deal with this in some form or another
how to harness and use this energy to transform the self...
the Hindu Gods and Goddesses a way to focus and manifest a particular energy...
Thought is energy
ideas energy that has yet to manifest
matter the idea thought manifested
you don't have to believe to be influenced if it takes a form
you agree exists
if it operates in the worldview you hold
in a suit and a tie
sounds like you acts like you
gives you exactly what you expect lulling you that much further into sleep..
no suprises
giving you exactly what you expected, reinforcing your worldview because that is what
they want...
how would you recognize it if it is what has been indoctrinated into you at birth...
that this is how the world works, that the manipulation of energy can have no effect on
you if you don't believe it. What you see is what you get.
Prove it, show me
here is an experiment you can do
go to a quiet place that is not frequented by many people...
stay awhile and see what happens to your thoughts
now..
go to a busy place frequented by lots of people
see what happens to your thoughts
we are susceptible to energy manipulation because we have been taught to
look for it in specific forms...in your case ghosts and witches and shamans
or that it does not exist at all. If you wanted to control people, and you didn't want them to know how they were being controlled, i know i would tell them that such a thing does not exist...why science proves it..these are the beliefs of primitive backwards people...
people who believe in that are fruitcakes, nuts
thats what i would do if i wanted external power
make them think it's their idea
make it fit into their view of the world
stroke the ego tell them how great they are
how awesome their service is
get them on myside
hook them to my ring of power
until it becomes self-sustaining
and society a reflection of my ego
what i think is good and bad
what i think is real
what i want to remain hidden
hides in plain sight
oh yes....
reincarnation
pat lives spent in mmystery schools
people of dark intent
drawn to power over and over again
always subverting it for the ego for external power
i imagine they would be Masters in this western world
Masters of industry
Masters of Politics
Masters of War
Masters of Advertising
all these masters using occult energy in Western Guise
so really...energy only requires will and intent to be harnessed and used...
past life training helps...
so what makes you think you aren't under a Dark Shamans control already...
in their nice suits and ties and perfect smiles
and common sense wisdom?
feeling sleepy?
Love
Light
Bow
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, June 29, 2006 - 5:52 PMDaniel wrote: "as i have said a few times ago, i think i am a far more thorough skeptic than you or most people..."
So you say, but if I'd been contacted directly by Quetzalcoatl, an ancient Mexican deity I'd never met before (or even knew very much about), I would have been all over it like Mulder and Scully (remember the "X-Files"?) I would have read everything I could find about that sucker, whether on web pages, books, articles, interviews, whatever. I would have been llike Hermione Granger and Harry Potter, tearing through the nearest library to find every bit of information I could get my hands on.
However, from what I can tell, you didn't even bother to consult the most basic sources, including books such as:
An Illustrated Dictionary of the Gods and Symbols of Ancient Mexico, by Mary Miller & Karl Taube
www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500279284
Quetzalcoatl and the Irony of Empire: Myths and Prophecies in the Aztec Tradition, by David Carrasco
www.amazon.com/gp/product/087081558X
Tolpitzin Quetzalcoatl: The Once and Future Lord of the Toltecs, by H.B. Nicholson
www.amazon.com/gp/product/0870815547
If I were as thorough as skeptic as you, I would have made sure I knew just about everything there was to know about old Quetzalcoatl before I decided I'd really had a conversation with him, much less wrote a book based on what he said. I also would have made sure I knew something about the differences among Mayas, Toltecs, and Aztecs.
What's up with this, Daniel? Do you regard academic literature the way I regard pseudoscience? Is it based on a flawed paradigm and therefore largely a waste of time? Is it okay for us skeptics to presume what we can safely ignore? -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, June 29, 2006 - 11:46 PMhi john,
you have a good point here. I admit that I ran out of time and money and I reached mental exhaustion from pursuing my researches in so many directions for so long. You can see from the bibliography I did read quite a bit, including books on the Maya and Quetzalcoatl (Maya Cosmos, Enrique Florescano, Michael Coe, etc). Some of the books you cite simply did not turn up on my early searches or I would've snapped them up, and by the time you mentioned them to me, I was completely saturated and had no psychic energy left to process more information.
However, i do feel that ultimately the value of the book is the integration of thought-systems, not the specific academic knowledge of the Mesoamerican cultures, which I completely admit to not having. How much longer do you plan to critique me for this, I wonder, as I have already admitted this. My book is not an academic book. It is an effort to synch together the Western thought system - including Nietzsche, Heidegger, Carl Jung, rational empiricism, and quantum physics - with the shamanic and intuitive world view of indigenous cultures, as well as the apocalyptic frame of the Judeo-Christian tradition. There is only so much that any one person can do, and I dangerously burned myself out to do this much. Obviously, you can't satisfy everyone, above all specialists with axes to grind.
I am completely psyched to review a deeper academic effort on Quetzalcoatl, once have the mindspace again... I can still barely read.
Now I am finally reading Geoff Stray's book right now. John, what do you think of it?
The thing you don't seem able to understand is simply this: I am a writer who writes about my personal experiences, and what I describe with the Quetzalcoatl transmission is something that happened to me, on a personal and existential level - not an experience I wanted or desired. As a scrupulous recorder of my own life and my major events and breakthroughs - following the Beat path that is in my literary DNA - there was no way I could not write about or include it. I do not claim to be an "expert" - and as I mentioned earlier, I dont "believe" in experts the way you do.
Certainly, when it comes to the Gods, we are all amateurs. If you don't believe me now, wait till they start talking to you.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 10:19 AMHi Daniel. I think we're making some progress here, but there are still some rough patches:
"The thing you don't seem able to understand is simply this: I am a writer who writes about my personal experiences, and what I describe with the Quetzalcoatl transmission is something that happened to me, on a personal and existential level - not an experience I wanted or desired. As a scrupulous recorder of my own life and my major events and breakthroughs - following the Beat path that is in my literary DNA - there was no way I could not write about or include it. I do not claim to be an "expert" - and as I mentioned earlier, I dont 'believe' in experts the way you do."
I don't "believe" in experts, I consider them the way I do other kinds of information. Michael Coe, from whom I took three courses, was my undergraduate advisor. I've known David Freidel since 1981, when I almost worked on his project (funding fell through that year). David, in particular, has taken a huge amount of heat precisely for his interest in shamanism, which is why I found it amusing and ironic that you picked him to represent the flawed and narrowminded academic perspective.
I know you're not an academic, and I don't expect you to be one. However, I'm disappointed that you used BOtH and 2012 (not to mention this thread) to take so many cheap shots at anthropologists (who have played a critical role in facilitating you own entheogenic explorations) and archaeologists. You keep repeating how many years of research you put into 2012 and the mental exhaustion and financial hardship that went along with this process. The average length of time to complete a Ph.D. dissertation in anthropology is *ten* years. Some people are lucky to get funding for their research, but most don't get any advances or royalties for producing heartfelt scholarship that often gets the attention of only a handful of colleagues. If you don't think a graduate degree requires a huge amount of energy, ask Drew Hempel M.A. or anyone else who's completed an M.A. or a Ph.D. And that's even before trying to make a living with it.
If you want some sympathy for your modest efforts from me, try to show just a *little* bit of appreciation and understanding of what real scholarship entails. We're all in it together, this task of figuring out what it all means. It's counterproductive to try and elevate oneself by disrespecting the blood, sweat, and tears of others. Focusing on the axe grinding stereotype is a diversion and an excuse.
I hope you know that when your mindspace is clear once again, I'm here to help out with sources and ideas.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 10:22 AMBy the way, I still don't have Geoff Stray's book in hand and wouldn't have time to look at it if I did. I'm focused right now on two academic papers on Central American shamanism that I need to finish in the next two weeks! (Tribe is an attractive nuisance that exploits both my worst vice and my lifetime curse: procrastination and a radically curious mind.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 6:49 AMAh Professor John W. Hoopes with the distinguished Harvard undergrad degree. I had no idea! haha
I had actually already read the previous "threads" and had posted comments on BOTH -- a site that gave me kinesthetic pleasure since the day after I started it there was a visible "V" on my forehead from full-lotus yoga. I found that to be totally intriguing since there had been no fixation on my part about trying to realize some sort of BOTH body realignment.
hahaha.
Hey I was in Costa Rica with the School for Field Studies in 1992, Fall. It was amazing and I was the first to test the psychedelic mushrooms collected from cow dung that my rogue academic colleages brought back to the School.
There was no effect on me, but I guess that's common for the first time, and I probably didn't have enough. Apparently the rest of the semester was spent in ASC bliss for these shroom gatherers.
Which I mention to just point out that ASC was probably very significant in indigenous Costa Rica.
You should read Dr. Peter Kingsley's amazing "Ancient Mystery, Magic and Philosophy" (Oxford U Press, 1996). That's where I learned that the Greeks believed if you were buried with your gold then you ascended directly to heaven.
Surely the role of gold in the West is an alchemical one. You should also read "Gold Warriors," (Verso, 2005) the new book by Sterling Seagrave. What a mind blowing expose on the vast genocidal forces of the global banking-assassination-mind control scene.
Anyway these discussion forums are fun. Too bad people rush to defamation lawsuits so easily! Such a litigious bunch in the U.S.
My research in Costa Rica demonstrated that the "protected reserve" next to our school, overseen by a former Contra assassin, was freely hunted by the destitute peasants living along its borders.
Well that deflated the idealistic propaganda of our ecological school. We toured the whole country though and it was really educational. I had the great opportunity to chew out the IMF (CIA) rep. when he made a presentation at our school.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 9:57 AM"Ah Professor John W. Hoopes with the distinguished Harvard undergrad degree."
Please, Drew, I don't need your insults. Especially with inaccurate information. Try to get it right.
I first went to Costa Rica in 1978 and fell in love with the place long before tourists learned what a jewel it was. Needless to say, it's changed a lot since those days. You're lucky to have had some time to spend there. 1992 was a stimulating time, especially because of the 500th anniversary of Columbus' arrival in the New World (although he didn't visit Costa Rica, which he named, until 1504).
You're right about the role of gold in the West. I've had a pet theory that we'd all be Muslims if not for the fact that the promise of vast quantities of gold and silver stolen from the Americas allowed Charle V to persuade his bankers to underwrite a Christian army. The precious metals came, but not in the qualitities he expected. Charles V never got out of debt, but his armies nonetheless managed to defend Europe from Ottoman invasion when Suleyman the Magnificent was at the gates of Vienna in 1532. (When Charles V's German creditors didn't got paid, they were given the rights to go exploring for the mythical El Dorado.) It's a fascinating period of history and set the stage for the unfolding of the modern world, globalization, and a lot of other issues that we've inherited.
Costa Rica never ceases to be fascinating. I hope you get a chance to go back. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 1:56 PMWhat did I say that was inaccurate? I'm interesting in "improving" myself and you let us all hanging.
The Spanish Gold with to German Bankers -- again if you read "Gold Warriors" the lurid details are exposed.
Thanks for sharing what you did though, although I highly recommend not listening to western music since equal-tempered tuning makes you too nostalgic.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 1, 2006 - 7:10 AMSeriously what's inaccurate? You left us all hanging and I love to be corrected. maybe you do need my insults. Who knows.
U of Minnesota had a prominent anthropology professor accompany General Custer in violation of the Laramie Treaty with the Sioux. That gave credible to Custer's mad obsession with gold.
More alchemy for you.
the Anthropology dept at the U of Minnesota were also the global leaders in eugenics in the 1930s -- the Man Crop -- and supported Hitler.
More alchemy for you.
Here's another one Newton became overseer of the Gold Mint in the U.K. and also personally supervised the hanging of the poor in big mass public spectacles.
More gold alchemy for you. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 1, 2006 - 10:37 AM"Seriously what's inaccurate? You left us all hanging and I love to be corrected."
Well, my undergraduate degree's from Yale, not Harvard. I went to Harvard for my Ph.D.
Sorry for being oblique. It's hard for me to reveal these simple facts about my life without someone thinking I'm a pretentious asshole. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 1, 2006 - 1:09 PMSo you can't tell us if you're in Skull and Bones I guess. Thanks for the correction.
But I have to ask. Are you in Skull and Bones? If not -- did you have any encounters with it? -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 1, 2006 - 3:33 PMIf I were, I couldn't say, but I'm not. I do have a good friend who is, though he's not supposed to say...
For a bizarre story about graverobbing Bonesmen, check this out:
www.yalealumnimagazine.com/issu....html
One of the thieves was Prescott Bush, father of and grandfather the presidents.
This upper class "crooking", which is still happening on a grand global scale, is arrogance of the worst kind.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 1, 2006 - 4:22 PMThat's an amazing article and real creepy. David Sora's book "Secret Societies of America's Elite" is really good in exposing the origins of Yale in the slave and opium trade. thanks.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 1, 2006 - 5:46 PMHere's that Secret Societies of America's Elite book -- the prose style is not so hot but it has some fascinating exposes on how corrupt Yale and other blue blood type institutions are in the U.S.
www.amazon.com/gp/product...609-8770201 -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 1, 2006 - 7:16 PMyou guys have your own elite club going on 'round here...
we'll call it snake and bones...lol -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 1, 2006 - 7:52 PMI think they need to spare us and get a room. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 1, 2006 - 9:06 PMbut new love is so romantic.....
<tehetehe>
Love
Light
Bow
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 1, 2006 - 7:31 PMPlease don't be so hard on Yale. It did produce the amazing Root Boy Slim, among others.
www.rootboyslim.com -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sun, July 2, 2006 - 6:34 AMLook Hoopes -- this is the whole "eccentric aristocrat" spiel. I did my first year of undergrad at Hampshire College -- in Amhert MA -- and I left because it cost WAY too much and was way too "eccentric aristocrat."
College is just out of range for most people and the McJobs of college grads in the U.S. has become infamous.
Personally I'm destitute and wouldn't see it any other way because I send no tax dollars to support the military. Where I work we literally beg for money and that enables us to stay independent of the corporate-state.
The U.S. is based on genocide and the genocide has spread -- out from Yale and across to China through CIA drug-weapon deals.
Daniel stated he's been living off 10 grand a year in NYC -- how does that compare to your professor salary not to mention how you paid for Yale, Harvard etc.?
Are you a scholarship person or an old money blue blood that associates with "eccentric aristocrats"?
I go to food kitchens for nutrition! I stopped dumpster-diving since most people couldn't handle my e. coli levels. haha.
1 billion people live in slums with no sanitation. That's the new Beat generation.
Central America can't compete with the even lower wages in China and that's why San Jose Costa Rica now has a slum filled with Nicaraguans who deal in prostitution-drugs-weapons.
Sam Walton be damned.
That was unheard just 20 years ago.
Scholarly types who go to a college or university are sell outs. I researched the whole corporate control of the U of Minnesota and it was started by the Skull and Bones member -- John Pillsbury.
The U of MN helped make agent orange and the green revolution -- thanks to Rockefeller.
One of my sources was Lawrence Soley who got fired from the U of Minnesota precisely because he exposed the corporate control of academia as his book "Leasing the Ivory Tower."
What about all that "skull" measuring by anthropologists? The Nazis who went to Tibet and measured skulls also measured skulls at Dachau -- AFTER they selected living people chosen as good specimens.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sun, July 2, 2006 - 6:36 AMI list "MA" as a joke because my advisor sent me the following email after I exposed his mentor, Werner Von Braun as a Nazi SS who personally supervised slave labor.
"I will personally make sure you are never published in the MN Daily again."
That was the end of my paid staff op-ed Beat Writers job!!
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sun, July 2, 2006 - 9:21 PM"Scholarly types who go to a college or university are sell outs."
I think *this* conversation is over. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sun, July 2, 2006 - 9:50 PMdrew,
I dont seriously think Daniel lives off ten k a year...come on. thats just nieve. Second he chose his course now its not good enough compared to...what he chose.
"Thanks for sharing what you did though, although I highly recommend not listening to western music since equal-tempered tuning makes you too nostalgic. "
Second, note 'makes you' statement...when it should be 'makes me'...but then maybe Drew has it all figured out and knows how everything effects everyone else. Talk about projection.
Anyone have a creative idea lately? -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sun, July 2, 2006 - 9:55 PMHere's a creative idea Theo - come up with something original yourself or get lost. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sun, July 2, 2006 - 10:29 PMThats it steve...so smart. Whats your IQ 12
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sun, July 2, 2006 - 10:31 PMIts funny you ask for the sharing of creative ideas...and you get cust at, be littled and called troll. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 7:43 AMTheo, this was part of a post in another thread (Quetzalcoatl?) but probably should be put here:
I don't understand, Theo, your constant harping on "originality," as though an idea is more valuable simply because no one has thought of it before. The ideas are out there. We already know what to do, and what can be done at this time IS being done. New ideas come through people all the time, but it would be stupid to say, "But is that idea ORIGINAL? If it's not, it's no good!" New ideas, new ways to apply old ideas, new syntheses of what is floating in the
groupmind to help the groupmind clarify itself? It's a collective process, it's not about individuals. And it's happening.
However, Theo, I don't respect people like you whose only interest seems to be in tearing down people who are actually doing the Work, like Daniel. It would be one thing to say, "I don't think Daniel's book is of much value. Writer X or Y is more worth our attention." It's another thing to put so much of your personal energy and priorities on attacking not Bush, not transnationals, not ... a zillion other institutions, policies, and people in power who ought to be attacked, but someone working for change. Maybe the value of Daniel's work (which includes not just his books but his Evolver project) is zero. But the value of YOUR work is less than zero; it is a minus, because you have set your priorities NOT on doing the Work that needs to be done, but on obsessively attacking people who ARE doing the Work. (Luckily, you are not very effective at it, and easy to ignore. If you are being paid as an agent provocateur, they are not getting their money's worth.) Let me offer an idea to you, Theo: you would be contributing more to the Work if you were to put your energy instead into forums that discuss sitcoms or soap operas, because then your contribution would be up to zero, instead of being in the minus range.
Maybe that will solve the mystery of "its funny you ask for the sharing of creative ideas...and you get cust at, be littled and called troll." (Mostly, though, you have been ignored, which is the best response -- people here seem to be too intelligent to feed the trolls much.) -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 9:45 AMNot to bring down Daniel. I don’t see Daniel as doing work. I see someone who has a view of the world that many people share...who has taken the time to point out certain links in a book...then wants paid for it. He has taken a leadership role, he has said ‘this is bad and this is so’...and that’s it. His perceptions are obvious…only difference is they are in print. He has not outlined one idea to an end. Take sex & conscious post. Daniel turns his back on philosophy, at the same time quotes it thoroughly and talk heavily of changing paradigms (philosophy in action). What perhaps you are angry with is my idol crushing.
I also disagree with your personal theory that everything that can be done is being done. As if when the clock strikes 12 all the changes will occur.
And your idea that I'm some agent goes towards your personal state of mind.
Gayle, if everything is where it's supposed to be...why are you posting? Why do anything. I think what is mostly going on is the discontent expressing their fantasy of a power shift. No one is interested in the other person or the people who aren’t online talking.
Further, I get offended when I see Daniel post words and thoughts like...''I lived poverty''...that is offensive to me. Its offensive to me that the majority of post if not 99% of them are attempts at quasi-intellectual boasting. Proven in the high emotional content...that most post regardless of who post them are taken as personal attacks, with no serious attempt at ingesting the content. (The Im right mind)
And personally Im not out to win fans (I don’t need the money)...if you and everyone here chooses to ignore me that is your choice...your ignorance - in that, if Im not taking a side my thoughts are not relevant...wonder what the real impoverished would think about that, but then we don’t know cuz we ignore them too.
I don’t think its a lot to ask for a flow of creative thought instead of elementary school regurgitation towards winning a popularity contest - if you do, and others do, fine.
Lastly, the fact that the any post evokes so much emotional energy is further sign that people are approaching with bias.
Im not here to get votes. Perhaps, Im here to insult your Egos.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 11:54 AMtheo,
I think you've got some valuable things to say yet you go about it in a way that pushes others away rather than invites them towards you.
I see you caring very little about how you treat others and that you are quite comfortable criticizing and insulting others. This makes it difficult to hang with any value behind your message. I see that you have worked on your spellcheck and that you are going back and editing your text a bit more closely so I gather that you are putting effort into refining your posts a bit more so as to potentially be heard.
I guess that I feel compelled to respond to what I interpret as effort on your part toward a more "joining" editorial dynamic, whereas in the past the fact that you seemed to care little about your spelling, incomplete sentences and thoughts gave me the feeling that you were just coming off with whatever hit the top of your head and that your efforts to distill, rethink or edit were at a minimum. I interpret your effort to mean that you are really interested in joining the conversation and therefore am going to respond with my energy and attention in your direction. Because as you know, it takes quite a bit of energy and dedication to work on addressing an Other in these contexts...you can't just slough off anything you want in narcissistic fashion unless your aim is to alienate others, right? ;+)
I don't know that you are actually interested in feedback on how you affect others interpersonally; you can do with it as you please. Let me just state that if you desire to listen and consider it, then great, it's just constructive feedback. Yet if you use it to slam back at me, then I will simply go silent again in acknowledgement that you were more interested in targeting me than in what I had to share about how I experience you in this tribe context.
I can give you direct feedback regarding your interpersonal skills and the effect it's had on me when you've spoken to me. You chimed in when I shared my experience with the Marciniak lecture. You came in with your diatribe about needing saviours or leaders or what have you, which completely distorted any of the points I had actually made. You did admit at the time that you were not specifically directing your question at me but at anyone else in the room and proceeded to post your challenge accordingly.
The trouble was, my post had nothing what so ever to do with needing Marciniak to be my teacher, my saviour, the provider of answers, what have you. You took me COMPLETELY out of context. That's fine if that's what you want to do, but I can tell you that steamrolling over people's actual meanings and being more interested in piggybacking onto their ideas to expound your own while pretending to engage them directly is not exactly conducive to continued social dialogue. It didn't make me want to answer you.
The irony for me is that you are someone who wants to see creative context and yet are quick to jump to conclusions on what you think you're reading in people's words. Is it possible that you missed any creativity in the suggestions I was displaying because you jumped too quickly away since you didn't see what you think defines creative content?
You've made some suggestions here and there about what you consider creative context and solution oriented dialogue. I can tell you that what you've considered creative throughout these posts, I have considered old hat. I don't engage in it because it's over for me. Have you stopped to consider that you may be behind the wave? Ever? and that it may be why you have trouble finding enough interest in some of the ideas that you want to discuss? If you didn't insist that they were so "new" and "revolutionary" then you may find more takers, people willing to go back to material they've already integrated, or find others who are at the same stage of awakening as you who wouldn't be so intimidated by your abrupt interpersonal style.
If I had it in me to fight with you to retain the validity of any of my original points then perhaps I could have engaged further with you at any given point. But how would I engage with you regarding a complete distortion of my actual message or point? To what end would I argue with you about your inability to "see" me? I didn't respond because I figured that since you had so missed the actual intent behind my words that you were not actually interested in me personally but more interested in your point. So I let you have the floor.
And to add, the way you speak to the room is usually more condescending, daring and offensive than it displays actual interest in other people's ideas. Your style is actually quite antisocial. You are out to dare everyone. It just doesn't feel safe and inviting. I know that we are working on radically new ideas, but it's denial to think that age old respect and honoring of others is not still important even beyond 2012. In fact, I would suggest that relational integrity is of paramount importance as we move towards heightened awareness and consciousness expanding paradigms.
As I write this right now i'm considering the possibility that you will respond maliciously. It's possible, but I don't feel attached either way. The concept may not be original, that of actually moving towards understanding each other and working on getting along interpersonally as a primer for having our "ideas" be heard...but I would contend that it's a pretty neglected art in the world of ideas for idea's sake.
so...the art of listening to others, of paying attention and slowing down enough to ensure that you are actually really receiving the other and absorbing what they have to say before retort...have you considered including it in your repetoire? -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 3:17 PMRebecca,
Hmm…I vaguely remember the original dialog you mentioned.
And yes, I too consider my style ‘daring’ in an ‘antisocial’ way. But I am not calling myself, nor putting myself up for leadership. And I consciously do it with intent.
Perhaps another thing you said is true…I am behind the wave. While personally I think I am ahead of it (sure to get slammed for that one). But perhaps the thread is more cyclic in nature then linear and the same old, same old is coming back up…simply because it has not been adequately handled the first time.
Very rarely have I been outright malicious. Not to say that I have not been antagonistic, but that is very different from malicious. And it’s in direct balance with the blind acceptance of the apathetic and fanatic. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 4:50 PMfair enough theo...if you're telling me that you are aware that your style doesn't invite mutual dialogue and that you are conscious of your antagonistic ways...well then, i'm glad I checked this out directly so I can better understand you...and I get it; you're not necessarily intending on being malicious...I guess I would just suggest that there's a fine line there between "daring" others and "maliciousness" if you aren't careful...what's behind the intentful "antagonism" for you?
you are stating that you do not claim to be a leader and therefore feel fit to not follow social agreements, ok, not all leaders follow such agreements, but that may be another topic....so are you in effect claiming to be a provocateur? as a role I mean, a conscious position you play for the group? is this what you consider to be your contribution? i'm just curious, certainly there is often one who plays such a role, but seldom do I see it happen as brashly as you've been willing to go..you know, seldom is that by conscious intent, it's usually more of a default...you know, if they get honest about it...they make the best of the fact that they are not successful in reaching others and claim to be doing it on purpose, as a shit stirrer...yet you seem to be saying your are making a choice...
are you additionally saying that you don't care how you affect others while accomplishing your goal? that you don't need to relate or be understood?
well if this is all a choice on your part, and not an unconscious incongruity between awareness and actual effect on others....I guess i'm then a bit confused as to what you are wanting from others in the group; I thought I heard you making claims to the lack of response to your exchanges/invitations?...since your position is intentful, I imagine that you've considered the effect it's bound to have on others based on our current collective social agreements?...
are you getting the results that your calculated stance set out to achieve? you know, my experience is that provocation or confrontation of this style (what I like to call the "two by four;" you know, as in hitting them over the head with a 2 by 4 piece of wood)...is not really conducive to getting through to anyone...people usually put up a wall or walk away...even when i'm totally on in my observation, if I don't take the time to ease on in to the Other, or if they are not yet aware of it, well, it's going to fall on deaf ears
have you found differently? does the 2 by 4 work for you?
I do appreciate your consideration of what I had to offer and feel i've gotten to know you better as a result of your self expression in response...thanks :+)
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 2:12 PM<<I also disagree with your personal theory that everything that can be done is being done. As if when the clock strikes 12 all the changes will occur.
Gayle, if everything is where it's supposed to be...why are you posting? Why do anything.>>
See, this is the other reason why it doesn't seem worth it to have a discussion with you -- because you consistently misunderstand or distort what people say.
Those of us who are doing the Work are doing the Work. And I try to encourage everyone who is doing the smallest thing -- even being a more conscientious consumer, reducing their driving, recycling anything at all. To me, I think that part of the Work is to give spiritual/energetic nourishment to others, to anyone who is doing anything, in order to encourage those seeds to grow. Otherwise, it is too easy for people who have social consciousness to burn out, because we all know we are not doing "enough." There is always more that we can do, but guilt about not doing enough, and frustration at the way the system forces us to participate in some way or another in things that are socially exploitative and ecologically destructive, make people often just give up and capitulate to the system. The sixties activist who has sold out to the system is practically a cliche, but it is not because they changed their values, but because guilt and frustration have burned them out.
We all know how we should be living, sustainably and justly. At least, socially conscious people do. (Okay, at least in Portland they do; sometimes I am reminded -- like recently by a college professor in Kansas -- that the whole country isn't like Portland.) It takes work to bring it about. The system will collapse regardless, but it will make a big difference whether that collapse happens very slowly and gradually, allowing us to adapt, or quickly. And it makes a big difference what alternative institutions are already in place. And it makes a big difference how much of the planet's ability to sustain life is left when the transnationals that are devouring its life-support systems are no longer in the picture. And it makes a big difference what kind of consciousness we bring to the challenges we are faced with.
There is a LOT of Work to be done, a lot more than is being done. But we do what we can do.
I don't think that people who try to tear down others' contributions to the Work are positive contributors to what needs to be done.
Disagree, yes; that is part of how we co-create.
But just tearing down, without specifics, no.
It is interesting that you do not think that writing a book is work; are you speaking from the experience of having written a book yourself? And it was easy?
And why are you so threatened by the fact that Daniel lives on little money? Voluntarily, in order to make the contribution he can make to the Work, which is to use his ability as a writer? I pretty much live the same way, for the same reasons, and l live on a lot less money than that (but Portland is cheaper). I forage for wild food, I guerrilla garden in vacant lots, I dumpster dive, I have spent years living in condemned houses with no heat (at the moment I rent a 10' x 15' room), I have never owned a car. I figured out as a child that money (forced dependence on money for the necessities of life) was how the system controlled people, and that the less I needed money to love on, the more freedom I would have and the more time for things that were really important. It sounds like Daniel has figured out the same thing, and lives it. More power to him. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 2:14 PMJust saw my own typo -- "the less I needed money to love on" -- LOL.
Freudian typo, I guess.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 3:29 PMLet me just address the contribution topic...
What contrabution has he made? The books yes? I agree the first one was good, and the second a 180 degree turn. And I have been particular, where haven't I? The one who has not been particular is Daniel and yet you see ready to follow him...and that scares me.
As to my personal contrabution to society...I dont discuss that here. I dont see much point nothing can be proved. I feel my point are enough, and you have every right to look the other way...its safer.
Pick a topic in his book...Ill keep my antagonistic tone to a minimal...and show you where he talks alot a says little. Start a thread...please stick to his words and his book and your applied understanding. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 4:03 PMI didn't ask you about your personal contributions to society; I am sure that you are making some. I never ask people to enumerate what they are doing because on the one hand, it won't ever seem like enough, and on the other hand, it is hard to separate out everything when it is integrated in your life. I trust everyone here that they are doing the Work in some way, on some scale. Personal spiritual practices are an important part of it; every act of kindness is an important part of it. Whether you rescue worms stranded on the sidewalk after a rain, demonstrate against genocide in Darfur, run a global nonprofit or create transformational art, you are part of it.
However, you have convinced me that you are not malicious, and I apologize for my tone toward you.
<<The one who has not been particular is Daniel and yet you see ready to follow him...and that scares me. >>
Okay, I'll bite. How do I, or anyone, seem ready to "follow" him?
Am I "following" everyone whose books I like?
And why would that scare you? I don't see anything harmful in them.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 4:13 PMI'm having an absolutely incredibly fun time reading all this rhetoric from the posts of Theo and Hoopes here in the 2012 tribe.
Thankfully it seems to be localized just in the 2012 tribe only! Whoop.... I mean whew!
What's the theme though, can anyone see it as clearly as I can? I'll give you all a hint, it's not Quetzalcoatl! ;)
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 4:55 PMso Jason,
I take that you are implying that Hoopes and Theo are plants? -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 5:24 PMWhy yes, yes I am. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 6:56 PMhoopes is sorta like english ivy (hedera helix for you geeky types)... growing all over and around everything, you cut off one of his leafs and he confounds you with two more in its place... good on Bernhard and Gayle and Daniel for doing some deep root extirpation ...
theo... more like an old nasty potato plant... you don't even want to look at it cos it's all covered in big fat beetles eating away at it... a slightly toxic solinacea (nightshade) that you think might have some good tubers but when you dig it up you find they're all rotten and now you have icky rotten potato on your hand
like that?
ah well, letting my paranoia run away with me here, i'm sure both hoopes and theo would rightly be classified in the animal kingdom
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 7:07 PMfor goddess sakes
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 7:16 PMyou rock
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 9:01 PMWell now that I've finally finished Daniel's book, I feel qualified to speculate on what all the hoopla is about on these threads.
First Theo. I did not read Breaking Open the Head but I imagine it was received by trippers everywhere as a cult classic in deconstructing the consensus reality and uncovering a spiritual core. This guess is based on some reviews I've read and the style of the new book. I'll have to read it myself but at the approaching age of 50, I feel like I broke open my head before Theo was a twinke in his parents eyes.
If I had a new hero who championed a revival of tune-in and drop-out, I might feel betrayed if all of a sudden my idol turned his back on the delic and focused more on the psyche. Or at least in the case of 2012 the collective evoloving psyche - sort of going from the micro of breaking through one's head to the macro - breaking through everyone's head. It's kind of like losing a personal friend because he has to be friends with everyone now. The shadow manifestation of dealing with this betrayal is - If I can't have my idol anymore than either can you! So we have this obsessive antagonism driving towards destroying Daniel's stature as a published writer of timely new age material structured in a provoctive way by demeaning his motives and questioning the value of anything beyond his quest for the personal views of his former leader.
As annoying as Theo's rants are, I almost feel the need to suggest Daniel get a restraining order issued to protect himself from a potential Mark David Chapman who turned on his idol John Lennon due to shadow entanglements as far as we can tell.
Now Hoopes. The image that surfaced in my mind when I first started to read these threads was the character Zelig from Woody Allen's movie of the same time. Zelig had no personality of his own. He blended into every environment he found himself in, including the Nazi's until he was saved by a woman. When you look at Hoope's pics and bio, you have a Zelig who has blended into all the hip cultural "digs" but he digs no further than the surface before the next excavation. Gofer hole after gofer hole are dug to the point where faith can be confronted but never surrendered to. The unfortunate part of this dynamic is that without faith, there can be no wisdom for the Pistis Sophia is made up of Faith and Wisdom. What Hoopes seeks is wisdom but all he finds is meaningless knowledge. Hoopes is a walking-talking HAL 9000. Hoopes "thinks" he can "think" his way into Wisdom which is an impossibility. The pre-requisite of doing any mind-expanding drugs in my opinion is faith that one can first- survive the experience without losing one's mind and second, trust that things will unfold as they are meant to unfold. This requires faith which is the antithisis of the skeptic/knowledge constructor/destructor. Methinks Hoopes has some broken dreams related to the Raiders movies which didn't quite pan out in the real world of acadamia.
Now of course these speculations are only based on very limited information as viewed publicly on these threads. I figured I'd throw them out since we all want to get past the shadow stuff here and get back to the serious business of discussing 2012 and what it all means beyond these tangents.
So in the spirit of trying to find our way back into the discussion, some comments on the book.
Daniel, I find the reincarnation material interesting but I throw out another possiblity - you indeed incarnated as this king you mentioned but so did millions of others as these are archetypes that play themselves out in an endless loop as life evolves throughout the universe. The expression "There is nothing New under the Sun" is more true than we could ever imagine. I believe that we've played and continue to play role after role in the same old play over and over until we evolve to the next level. Even the Gods evolved from lower forms until they incorporated what they needed to move on.
The transmission from Quetzalcoatl - the 666 stuff seemed over the top and put you in an awkard place of being perceived as some kind of participant in this prophesy as opposed to being more of the observer. I was a little disappointed with this twist since I thought the biggest strength you had with the book was your objectivity. I know you handled this with the scrutiny and discrimination you've handled with most of your epiphanies, but it did throw a bit of a crow bar into your progressive wheel of evolution and I'm afraid set-up a rationale for taking a strong leadership position using the authority of "archetypical channel" a justification. I went though a similar episode with Metatron and went out and taught a Kabbalah class using the information that Metatron was guiding me to. I'm sure you are right on top of this potential problem of speaking out as Daniel Pinchbeck, author vs, Daniel Pinchbeck, voice of Quetzalcoatl.
My belief is 2012 is unwritten into how it will exactly play out. There are potentials and probabilities in play that we as the collective are choosing and editing in this now moment. I think the best we can do is to focus our intent on manifesting the best potential for everyone on the planet. I suppose we'll need to agree on what that is first. My idea of the best potential is still being being decided in my mind as I'm really torn on a few things. For instance, computers - I like them and would hate to see them go yet we've become so dependent on them and serve to dehumanize good old-fashioned human interaction.
Happy 4th everyone. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 7:16 AMDont worry Steve I will reply to this...
I think you do enough with your thoughts of sadistic assination projected on to me- to harm yourself and your own creditablity.
But Im pretty sure I can hit your last post out of the park. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 10:50 AMDave,
Being that you present me as a “Young Tripper in hero worship who just lost his best friend because he (I) see the world thru the delic(micro) vs. psyche (marco)”...whose end result will be, (in simpleton terms, as you tend to cloud your simpleton ideas in the guise of intellectualism) I then turn on my x-girlfriend by calling her slut (and eventually assassinate her). Thereby, I am compelled to respond.
There you hit the mark: I MOST DEFINITELY am questioning the value of Daniel Pinchbeck (as I have questioned the motive of Alex Jones).
It has long been my position that D.P. is Ego tripping – A fact that you yourself have shadowing-ly expressed the same concerns, yet in bias (shadow material) you don’t want to accept – for it means the fall of YOUR Hero.
Noting the last 2 paragraphs of the post where you address myself, Hoopes, and Daniel:
You state that Daniel forfeited his observationalistic journalism and became a king participant receiving transmissions.
(I add - complete with a ‘round table’ and computer technologies designed to track sexual exploits. See Sex&Consciousness thread). Slightly controlling ideas for a visionary, yes?
I present that your own bias (shadow material) clouds your objective view of D.P. – you even goes as far as to suggest a way in which you will accept his leadership. Lets take a look at your post to D.P.:
Dave says,
“I throw out another possibility…you indeed incarnated as…king” – the rest of the paragraph goes on to say, in simple terms, that D.P.’s experience was/is not that special, we all do it.
“…Over the top and put you (Daniel) in an awkward place of being perceived (by Dave & others) as some kind of participant…as opposed to being…an observer” - Dave here you are wrestling with his self-imposed positioning as a King Prophet at the round table, maybe? I think yes.
Terms like: “over the top / bit of a crow bar / I’m afraid set up a rationale for taking a leadership role” suggest intrinsic hesitation to accept his line of thought. “A justification” in your own words Dave.
What concerns me and others who feel your sentiment (or bias – its all perspective) is where you say things like:
“I KNOW you handle this with scrutiny and discrimination…”
“I’m SURE your right on top of this…”
I simply ask:
“HOW DO YOU KNOW?”
Or is it more that, you want him to be--hope he is…
After all he is your:
Quetzalcoatl King prophesizing the Progressive Wheel of Evolution.
Is he? Is he, really? -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 10:57 AMps.
I took great offense to the comments on assissination...your imaginations run you...try letting your conscious run things for a little while.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 11:16 AM"You state that Daniel forfeited his observationalistic journalism and became a king participant receiving transmissions. "
AHA! So THIS is the hangup? His receiving transmissions? If that one chapter were not in the book, would your view of the book be very different?
And, Theo, another question: why do you keep going on and on about how Daniel is our "leader" (promoted to KING in this post!)? Why do you keep saying we are "following" him? Are you "following" anyone whose books you like? -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 11:23 AMTheo is a plant -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 9:47 PM<Theo is a plant>
and in this case there might be multiple definitions for the word 'plant'. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 10:42 PMIndeed..... and it's not the kind you'd water....
Nature versus nurture anyone?
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 3:58 PMgayle you obvious...AGAIN...didnt read the post...those are STEVE suggestions.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 11:38 AMTheo - obviously your synapses are misfiring. What I did was call out your shadow to see what is driving you in this fanatical fashion. I have been careful to couch my opinion regarding your motivation as pure speculation. Your posts reflect some kind of power struggle you are having with the notion of Daniel's power. What is this about? What do you fear for yourself or for others? Do you think DP is trying to establish a cult or something?
DP is not my leader. I went through my guru stage before you were born. I am an executive in a 10 Billion Dollar Global Computer Company making an easy six figure income. Why would I worship Daniel Pinchbeck or anyone for that matter? I have a sixteen year old daughter who I've taught to avoid drugs and focus on developing her passions.
Why do you feel compelled to be judge and jury of anyone or anything? What litmus test do you use to assess anyone's genuineness or authenticity? The points I raised were discussion points not stones of judgment or flowers of coronation. Is everything black and white for you Theo? Must you see things diametrically opposed to each other like book one and book two?
You make a big deal out of how I equated your behavior with an assasin's. I have to tell you Theo that you display a threatening imbalance. I've been there so to assume I'm trying to assasinate your character as well, forget it, I am actually trying be helpful. I going to make some suggestions, you can take them for what they're worth.
1. Write down what you see in others that you absolutely hate. Ex. Daniel ego-trips
2. Focus on the opposite trait. Ex. Daniel is a humble soul
3. Find instances in your life where you've displayed each of the traits you've outlined.
4. Did you find yourself choosing one trait over the other or did you find yourself suppressing one trait over another? Write that down.
5. Any trait you suppressed - allow into your consciousness. Ex ego-tripping
6. Note how you feel when you give these traits permission and allowance to be
7. Recognize that they cannot overtake you when you've accepted them as part of your beingness and that by accepting them you accept their opposites
8. Consciously choose what traits you wish to model not because you have to but because you want to.
9. Forgive yourself and others for denying parts of yourself that were swept under the carpet for whatever reasons.
Good luck and best wishes with this if you should choose to receive it.
Steve (not Dave) -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 4:24 PM
Steve,
You are the judge...you talk without knowledge...you have no clue who I am, none. I keep it that way.
"I am this and that" you state...as if your monetary status grants you intellectual basis...WRONG.
I am an executive of my own company (2nd) successful one...the first net was 1.25 million dollars in its first 18 months...so when you’re done throwing weight around...
...when I was 15 he was offered 70 million dollars to start a company -that’s brain power-...( I’m sure that’s not enough for you)...he was a member of menza...he was the head of one of the premier global communication think tanks (i.e. President)- Where he was regularly invited to meet with heads of state (i.e. prime ministers of countries) He holds patents out the wazoo...He was also an independent contractor doing the Regan administration on the star wars program...probably regarded as one of the geniuses in computer programming industry...Steven Hawkins and he were discussing quantum physics when the net was post boards...so I think I grew up in good company.
My brother (unfortunately) works for a major jetliner manufacture...the average IQ of the three of us would bury you…probably in double digits.
And what my father taught my brother and me - to be independently thinking. So kisses from me to you…
See Steve you are the bullshit...and me...you dont know anything about me. You dont even know how old I am...so stop faking Steve. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 4:29 PMthe 'he' I was refering to was my father.
The edit was done poorly, due to cut and paste typo . -
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Unsu...
Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 5:05 PM♪ ♫ ♪ "If a body catch a body, comin' through the rye..." ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 5:30 PMNo such,
did you have to look that up?
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 10:33 PMTheo - I'm done engaging with you.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 4:26 PMand you pompus ass to think the lenon comment was not equated to some bs assassin...now your lying.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 2:55 PMhi steven,
thanks for your comments on the book.
as i have said elsewhere, i am a writer who writes about his experiences - this is kind of my lineage, as my mother writes memoirs (Minor Characters) as well autobiographical fiction (In the Night Cafe), and also it is the Beat heritage of Ginsberg, Kerouac, Diane DiPrima, etc. The reincarnation experience and the "666" transmission happened to me, therefore I felt compelled to write about them. Perhaps it is meaningless garbage, or somehow an aspect of my own ego-inflation - I don't know and can't say. I did my best in the book to convey what the experiences were like for me, as a subjective individual, and others can draw their own conclusions.
It just seems to me you are suggesting I made some kind of "strategic" mistake putting in this material - and I can only answer that it would have betrayed my job as a witness to the process of following the stream of prophecy and my own subjective experience not to include them.
As for reincarnation, in the book I note there might be several different levels of consciousness. One is a level where all consciousness is unitive, a singular and collective mind-field. Beneath that, is a level where a singular individuality reincarnates in a succession of lives (as the Tibetans have formalized, as Steiner describes in his Karmic Relationships series for the West).
Without knowing that this is definitely the case, I do feel a kind of resonance between me and what I understand about Ashoka (which, admittedly, isn't so much). For instance, the pains that Ashoka apparently took, in his written edicts on stone pillars, to be carefully and clearly understood - even in Breaking Open the Head, my tendency as a writer is to present my ideas in a foundational form so that anyone can follow my logic and my progress, step by step. However, I am still completely open to the possibility that this Ashoka shtick is simply an illusion or a manifestation of ego-inflation that a further dose of reality will cure me of, once and for all. (Considering Ashoka's erotic entitlement as an emperor, it might also explain certain difficult aspects of my karma around women and relaitionships - stuff I am still confusedly trying to sort out). -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 10:29 PMDaniel - I do not think it's meaningless garbage nor would I suggest you made a strategic mistake. What I point out is that it would be easy for nuts out there to think in such literal terms as to take what you have to say about being called 666 by Quetzalcoatl in combination with the past life as a king and misconstrue what you reported in the same way our friend John Lennon got lambasted for saying the Beatles were more popular than Jesus Christ. He was stating a fact in that a major phenomonen called Beatlemania was sweeping the globe while religion was waning. It set-up a polarity I don't think he ever recovered from and actually fed going forward.
I think the 666 piece was probably valid but I think 666 is one of those things that needs more unpacking before we just leave it as your claim to infame as some people might see. For instance, could the 666 which is your birthday and "Man's number" be symbolic of everyone's birthday perhaps or time as the creation of man not God. Just food for thought when dealing with taking on the construct of the beast perhaps uneccesarily.
The reincarnation information is also valid in my opinion. What you say in your post about the unitive mindfield would also have been good in the book to help offset any thought of you basking in self-aggrandizement.
What I'm saying on both accounts is that the polarity we're witnessing here in this thread could have been avoided and at the same time, you could still maintain your truth and integrity on what was transmitted to you. These two items were left dangling for the bottom-feeders to come along and get incredibly reactionary - not that that's a bad thing as it exposes the shadow in play. I just thought it was worth discussion. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, July 4, 2006 - 10:54 PMAnd I would follow up on the 666 comment I made by referencing Revelation which talks about people having to worship the beast and receiving a mark on the forearm or the forehead which could also be read as the hand or the face which we can all identify as being features of a clock. Could the beast be a clock? Or time? Doesn't Revelation speak of not being able to do business or trade without the mark of the beast? -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 8:44 AMAnd to muddy the waters further, what if this whole notion of 666 is also a statement of polarity - the seeming duality of the universe symbolized by a Christ and Anti-Christ which resembles a house of mirrors. Here is the mathematical binary view:
If we divide 1010011010 - the binary notation for 666 - into two digits sets (10100 and 11010), the second part of the number is the complemented reverse of the first part:
10100 00101 (00101 reverse of 10100)
10100 11010 (11010 complement of 00101)
- By G. Sarcone -
When we follow the Yellow Brick Road or Golden Mean in mathematical terms, we can overcome the duality through the development of compassion for both sides of the equation. Could this be a deeper metaphor that aligns with the previous life of polarity?
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666
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 9:38 AMInteresting binary view of 666....thanks Steve.
My feelings regarding the "buying and selling" of things has to do with what is actually happening right now in the world. John was a visionary and he had a hightened sense of things to come. He was able to put himself into deep trances to recieve visions because he was close to God: Love. His body was whole and healthy, since he was an essene living off of "live" foods and in prayer/meditation most everyday.
There is a computer 3 storys high in Europe that has a link to every single person in the world with a number. I imagine if I were John, to see men working so frenzied and dazed with this technology, it could seem pretty beastly to me if I were someone who had never seen a computer talk, walk, and fly. How would I be able to explain my vision of all this high tech stuff, in my primitive day.
There are 6 digits in our social security. These six digits together represent the number of man.
Its becoming more known that there are certain codes and binary information that allows data to be stored and processed tied to every human being on the planet. Its interesting that 666 is the main number on UPC codes. The man who invented the product label code, (though he says it is all a coincidence) Mr. Laurer the creator of the Bar Code system, coincidently his name has 6 letters each in the first, middle and last (which he shrugs off as amere coincidence). He explaines the 666 that are imbedded into the bar codes on his is also just a coincidence. While Mr. Laurer was an employee with IBM, he was assigned the task "to design the best code and symbol suitable for the grocery industry". In 1973, Mr. Laurer's UPC barcode entered the world, and the rest is history.
Coincidnence?
Well of course it is, I believe he really means that.... I am certain he wasn't thinking BEAST - ARMEGODEN - or ANYTHING SINISTER. But Laurier IS working and supporting a system based on "mammon and greed": The buying and selling of things. And this is what John saw in the future when he was taken up in "spirit". He saw how there would be massive wars, lust for money and power, mental chaos and a separation from God (God being LOVE). He also saw massive Earth Changes(due to mans ignorance, coupled with the fact that earth would be shifting course in its galactic position and tragectory - a new Heaven).
There is a growing movement toward a "cashless system". Thebeast is an energy that wishes for World control. Micro-chips are now a reality. This will in effect control ALL buying and selling.
Think of it. A cashless system will remove all illegal transactions. it will force people to be controlled beyond control. ITS AN ARTIFICIAL SYSTEM. The Scientists and Big Bakners with their high techonolgy, mind control frequency machines are playing God with technology, genetics, cloning, robots, high tech bombs, etc....
Its the most anti-EARTH, anti-GOD, anti-CHRIST thing to happen to mankind.
So I believe this is the meaning behind the vision that John had with a system that would control all buying and selling....
I believe that what John saw was how the heart of man would become so infected with greed, war and hate (abandoning the Truth of God: which is LOVE), that few would retain the original plan of living in a paradise (this beautiful incredible creation) at peace with the natural rythyms of life. He saw that there would be a beast like power (a selfish and sinister doctrine of world domination) passed down thru the ages in conquest for war and colonialism. He saw the result of a lack of faith in the Natural order of God: and the resultant quantum shifts that would alter our reality due to interfereing with the Law of Cosmic order. He saw how there would be one who would authorize and dictate an attempt to dominate the world selfishly by ungodly means (UNLOVING MEANS) rather than initiating a world of True peace, prosperity and equality sharing the wealth (as Jesus so revolutionary instigated in his time). Instead we are seeing something very profound taking place within th epsyche of humanity, in our mind thru out this world: THE FIGHT ON TERRORISM. This is a very clever plan designed to captivate people thru their very own livlihhod. Tagged ID, micro-chips, electronic survailance, Satelight spying, Remote viewing, searches, retna scans..... all based on FEAR and mistrust: not "love".
So Johns vision saw that mankind would go too far and forget the beautiful words and council of the great lovers, mystics and prophets of our Time inspired by God. This One World ignorance would go so far as to dictate some sort of mass control using means of "control" branding us like sheep with numbers and digits. All this fear monerging nullifies our ability to have true freedom and unaturally excerts images of "fear and terror" into our brains, exciting our Amagdala and Hypothalamus in unhealthy ways causing us to tremble and lose sleep. There is a spying force trying to lead us into "paying" homage to worship a beastly computerized system based on "Martial Law", to monitor our personal and financial data, instead of living according to the natural rythymn and order of Nature; our Biosphere.
Are we going to support a system that allows a hand full of very wealthy people to play toys with us whether we like it or not? Using their highly advanced technological discoveries (toys) utilizing a huge monopoly of fast planes, bombs, computers and chips under the guize of world peace?
Of course, like the debit card, this system will come across as being such a good idea to rid the world of illegal activity and terrorists. If we refuse, we will be suspect. All illegal transactions will be wiped out (via no cash), and our lives will be protected. Our money, medical information, dental information, personel information will convieniently be stored right under our skin. If we get lost, we can be found. No paper, no plastic cards.... its easy.... just swipe your hand over the counter, or have the teller reach up to your forehead and read you like a product.
Thats what this 666 prophecy is about. John was foretelling the future of a technological war mongering age where the power of greed and selfishness would rule wanting to control mankind with such a force, lying, chaotic and frenzied resulting from a world that had forgotten to love.
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Re: 666
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 10:00 AMStar - you express some deep concerns. First, let me assure you the bar code notion is a myth - see www.archimedes-lab.org/pzm57b.html and scroll down.
I'm not sure what you mean about 6 digits in Social Security - I have 9 digits and the numbers go from 1-9.
While I agree that there are greedy negative energies out there, I also believe that we feed them with all our fear and hate so that they become as powerful as we make them with those ingredients. The way to null their influence is to turn the other cheek, in other words to refuse to give them fear, hate, anger, any emotion whatsoever and use the love you speak of to knock them down.
The more we polarize good and bad, spirit and matter, ego and humbleness, commercial and charitable, the more we spearate ouselves from wholeness. That drama is coming to an end - not by one side winning or losing over the other but by waking up to our oneness no matter which side of the fence you're on.
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Re: 666
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 7:33 PMHi Steve, thanks for the link. Very interesting.... I can see how they are explaining it as a myth. I assure you I am not in "fear" of any of this. I am just 'noting' that there is a movement in the Global Market to go cashless and that this system is and has already been implemented: as a slow process. I realize that when I CAPITALIZE my words it may seem like I am shouting out in fear, but I am not. If I could "italicize" what I would like to express as important, I would. :-)
I do not hate or fear the Big Bankers. You are right about not feeding into fear Steve, that is VERY important at this time. LOVE IS the greatest power....om.... that is a constant. )|(
I agree that most times it is good to turn the other cheek when personally being faced with someones rage and anger. To show love rather than spite or hate. But it is good too, mind you, to have 'discernemnt ' and to know what is happening in the world rather than just turning our heads the other way and acting like its not happening. Sometimes its ok to turn over some tables, like Christ did when the money lenders were byuing and selling in the Temple. That too is an action of love.
So many things these days are such a scam.... to create fear. But there are truths that have to be understood, regarding prophecy and what is happening today. Scams and all. To keep watchful for the signs and have "knowing".... to warn people in this world and make light that which is the dark.
There is a computer located in Belgium that is so large that the Towns people nickname it “the Beast”. During the month of March 1999, Bill Gates and another large Microsoft organization went to Belgium in a meeting concerning the “Y2K” computer crises.
This huge computer built over ten years ago; the rulers of this computer’s programming knew about this problem long time ago since they discovered this technology. This situation was not a problem for them, because it was made to look as a problem.
Do you think that these people that made this advance technology could make such a mistake? NO
In Brussels, Belgium this gigantic computer that makes its own programs. "By using three entries of six digits each, each citizen of the whole world is given a distinct credit card number." Three entries of six digits each: 666. This represents each citizen. (the number of man?)
CREATOR OF THE BAR CODE EXPLAINS 666
I find it interesting that Laurier (the creator of the Bar Code) in his interview stated the relevance of 666.
On Mr. Laurer's web site members.aol.com/productupc , he has a "Questions" page, where he answers various questions about the UPC barcode. On the "Questions" page, Mr. Laurer answers the "666" question, as follows:
Question #8 - Rumor has it that the lines (left, middle, and right) that protrude below the U.P.C. code are the numbers 6,6,6... and that this is the international money code. I typed a code with all sixes and this seems to be true. At least they all resemble sixes. What's up with that?
Answer- Yes, they do RESEMBLE the code for a six. An even parity 6 is:
1 module wide black bar 1 module wide white space 1 module wide black bar 4 module wide white space
There is nothing sinister about this nor does it have anything to do with the Bible's "mark of the beast" (The New Testament, The Revelation, Chapter 13, paragraph 18). It is simply a coincidence like the fact that my first, middle, and last name all have 6 letters. There is no connection with an international money code either. (From his website)
Dr.Eldeman pointed out that by using three entries of six digits each, every inhabitant of the world would be given a distinct credit card number.
I did not mean to say that all the Credit Card numbers have 6 numbers, but that for computers to Internationally process and keep tabs on people of 3 entries of six digits (scores) all people would recieve a number of some sort.
Other officials of the Common Market believe that present chaos and disorder, due to a mysterious cause, show the need of a world money, of an international print that would possibly put an end to paper money and coins. In their place, credit notes would be exchanged by the means of a world bank's clearing house.
No member could buy or sell without first being given such a numbered imprint.
The directors of the Common Market are now convinced that world order demands, on the allegiance of peace and politics, a new world system of trade and numbering.
And the International Financiers, who know well that they themselves control the money of the whole world, have the nerve to talk about the "mysterious cause of actual chaos and disorder". They make believe that they are looking for a means to pull the peoples from the "economic chaos into which they are sinking," when it is they, the bankers, who are the authors of the chaos, by the control of money and by their plays with the currencies, a play that makes countries tremble.
Its was rumoured that The USA declared that in the beginning of the year 2000 the American authorities would inject the prisoners of the USA by electronic microchip under their skins as identifications. Also to detect them any were they go from a long distance by the space satellites in case of escaping from prisons, or if they were sent home on probation instead remaining in prisons.
Here are some examples of this PLAN to control the world monopoly:
BRITAIN APPROVES NATIONAL IDENTITY CARD
2005 DECEMBER; U.K. Prime Minister Tony Blair announced the approval of biometrics identify cards in October 2005 after The House of Commons passed the proposal with a 309 to 284 votes. The identity cards will store a citizen's finger prints, iris scan, and facial recognition technology. The U.K. biometrics identity cards may set the global standard for all nations in which the global population will be marked and scanned and the biometrics information then stored in a global data base.
JAPANESE CITIZENS DISGUISED AS HUMAN BAR CODES PROTEST JUKI NET
2005 JULY: Yoshiaki Takashi, 68, one of millions of Japanese citizens is outraged at Japan's growing data base known as Juki Net, will store the names of Japanese citizens including their age, sex, data and city of birth. The Juki Net data base will also assign every japanese citizen a 11 digit bar code for identification. This governmental protocol was launched in 2002 and has already unleashed an unprecedented nationwide rebellion among the japanese citizens, whom are normally know for for their passiveness and trust of the government. " It's very rare that people are saying no to a national policy of Japan.", stated Seiji Mizunaga, a japanese legal representative. Many japanese citizens fear the future sinister developments of Juki Net and it's vulnerability to abuse by the police and government agencies. Mr. Takashi stated," I am furious at the men who want to know my private data when they have no business with such things. The government has given numbers to human beings as if we were animals."
The UNITED KINGDOM & BIG BROTHER
Controversial plans to introduce a compulsory identity card scheme have been unveiled in the Queen's Speech. The cards, which had to be dropped ahead of the election, will be linked to a National Identity Register holding information on all UK residents. Home Secretary Charles Clarke said there had been "technical" changes to the new bill to take account of previous objections to the plans. Ministers say the new Identity Cards Bill will help protect people from identity fraud and theft, and tackle illegal working and immigration abuse. They claim it will disrupt the use of false and multiple identities by terrorists and other criminals, and ensure free public services are used only by those entitled to them. The ID scheme will cost an estimated £3bn and see each UK citizen being issued with a "biometric" card bearing fingerprints and other personal details which will also be stored on a new National Identity Register database.
CASHLESS
Cashless payment systems are now part of a larger technology development subset: government identification experiments that seek to combine cashless payment applications with national ID information on media (such as a "smart" card), which contain a whole host of government, personal, employment and commercial data and applications on a single, contactless RFID chip. "We are the only ones out there offering implantable ID technology," said Silverman, who announced the "VeriPay" service during a speech Friday at ID World 2003 in Paris. "We believe the market will evolve to use our product."
"Today's microchips operate by means of low-frequency radio waves that target them. With the help of satellites, the implanted person can be tracked anywhere on the globe. Such a technique was among a number tested in the Iraq war, according to Dr. Carl Sanders, who invented the intelligence-manned interface (IMI) biotic, which is injected into people. (Earlier during the Vietnam War, soldiers were injected with the Rambo chip, designed to increase adrenaline flow into the bloodstream.) The 20-billion-bit/second supercomputers at the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) could now "see and hear" what soldiers experience in the battlefield with a remote monitoring system (RMS).
MEXICO GOING FOR IMPLANTS
Mexico's top federal prosecutors and investigators began receiving chip implants in their arms in November in order to get access to restricted areas inside the attorney general's headquarters, said Antonio Aceves, general director of Solusat, the company that distributes the microchips in Mexico.
UNIVERSAL IDENTIFICATION PLAN
In UN there is talk that every person in the world would be fingerprinted and registered under a universal identification scheme to fight illegal immigration and people smuggling outlined at a United Nations meeting today. The plan was put forward by Pascal Smet, the head of Belgium's independent asylum review board, at a roundtable meeting with ministers including Australian Immigration Minister Philip Ruddock.
WTC ATTACKS SPURRS ON VERI- CHIPS?
NEWARK -- The terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center have spurred a former surgeon from New Jersey to turn himself into a human guinea pig. Five days after the Sept. 11 attacks, Richard Seelig spent about five minutes implanting two "Verichips" -- each no larger than a small breath mint -- below the skin of his right forearm and right hip.
So John "saw" these things in his vision. He saw the future of the "money lenders" and the selfish plan that would eventually be initiated into the world. Out of his love he wrote these things down to warn humanity. Of course it would take some kind of HUGE CRISIS to catalize the whole thing into place.... but then we know from 9-11 that they are capable of anything in order to gain control.
I realize that there is a divine plan, and this is a test of our strength and endurance to love wholly. Out of my love I express what I see in search for Truth. I cannot turn away from what is going on. I do not advocate going in their face and showing my fist, because I am about love. But I will not keep my eyes and ears closed when I see things coming. I have had so many dreams.... its hard to ignore the messages.
You speak beautiful words about polarity. That is true, the more we polarize our experience unnaturally the more fragmented we become. We must also realize that 'polarity' is a reality too. There is a place for polarity in the Nature of this Universe. Without it, we would not be.
Mystics and seers like Jesus spoke about certain that would not embrace the "wholeness" of our creation, our God like presence in the Oness of the Universe. With information such as what the "Big Bankers" are doing, or the Mafia, Rome, or where our Galaxy is seating itself (in light of the Grand Shift that we are moving into), etc... is a sign for those of us who see, dream and wish for Love to be the guiding force here on Earth to ready ourselves for this time of great change. Just like the signs we are seeing regarding 2012, by way of the great initiates of the Temples who were before us and who "knew", understanding the way and tide of the Universal Astronomical motions of the Heavens.
It will take each and everyone of us to become "whole" within our mind, body and spirit to fully embrace the amazing birth we are going to experience. These are my feelings. I believe we are definately being called upon to be "aware" to exersize the power of our love in unity with the elements that surround us: in Nature (Earth and Sky). With eachother.
I do believe that there are great polarities happening right now on par with the birth of the new Galactic position we are being shifted into: a new Creation (new skies). There are atrocities that are happening to mankind, and it would really be a sin to just turn our heads away and not resond. I would like to be responsible: and I am able to respond. I work within my soul to stay humble, whole and to accept all that is, yet I am compelled to expose that which is not resonating in God (love) to bring to light Truth to help set us free. These are based on my onw feelings of course. I realize I have alot to learn. But if something does not feel harmonic to the whole, I react inside. I would be lying if I said I am null to what is going on. I react in my spine, just like a tree would if there was poison spilled on her roots, or like the Earth is reacting now with upheavals in reaction to the countless wars and pollution being spilled on her. It is part of Nature to always move itself into a state of harmony, Oneness and balance in the Universe when things become unbalanced.
Perhaps one day I will walk in a way that is pure like the Tao and just see wholeness in everything all around me. (actually I know I will) I do pray, meditate and work in grace to not allow myself to slip too often into the animal nature of my fear when I see corruption or hear of impending silly regimes that serve to imprison mankind instead of empowering our freedom, health, and love. You know, it really would help us all to live like this more so if we had a world that saw the same thing (wholeness in Love) and where we were not being tampered with unjustfully.
I do believe that Time is coming though, very rapidly.... I believe there will be a time when Earth will be spinning in a Higher frequency, in a New domain and the Light of Love will be our governing force - and those beings, those souls who do not see or feel this heightened state of Love (Godforce) will not be able to exist on Earths new level - dimention or whatever you want to label it. And thats ok too, I know.... because all things that die away get recycled back into the Universal order of things to start anew. But I do not feel to be one of those who have been the signs, and did not heed to them. Nor can I stand back and just watch certain things happen without being of service to Love and Truth. That is who I am.... for now.
I believe that Earth will not be destroyed for she is meant to embody Heaven right here - a New Golden Age even greater than the one before. Om to love, wisdom, knowledge and awareness. These things are like honey to our Soul. Ahhh, yes...... Om sweet Om....
Thank you Steve for being a wise and kind being.
Peace* -
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Re: 666
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 8:31 PMHi Star. Laurer's Web site changed so you can see his response here www.laurerupc.com/ where he has refused to answer questions on this since the year 2000. Part of his refusal may have something to do with him not having invented the UPC barcode to begin with. He was involved in the putting it back on the front burner when lasers came out and it could become more affordable to produce.
Here's what one debunker says about the whole UPC 666 enterprise www.geocities.com/SouthBeac...ies/I.html
"Hovind: "...he will cause everyone to receive a mark in their right hand or in their forehead...The mark is going to be six-hundred three-score and six, 666."
Or in some versions of the Bible, 616.
Hovind: "In 1972, IBM Corporation developed the bar code where the computer can actually translate lines and spaces into zeros and ones, a binary language, and read it."
Lie #141. IBM did not develop this at all. On October 20, 1949, Norman Woodland and Bernard Silver filed a patent application titled "Classifying Apparatus and Method," which was designed to read a bar code pattern of four white lines on a dark background
Hovind: "If you look at the first two lines on the bar code, they are longer than the rest and are unmarked. The system does not tell you what these numbers are."
Lie #142. That's because they are not numbers, they are markers.
Hovind: "It just so happens that two skinny lines with a space in between them is the computer binary code for the number six."
Lie #143. There are two bar codes for a six - and they have nothing to do with computer binary codes as such - they relate only to the bar pattern. Here they are (and neither consists of two lines only):
0101111 1010000
You will notice that the bar code on the right has ones where there are zeroes in the bar code on the left. The scanner reads the bar code from the center outwards, reading both to the left and the right. This is how it can read the bar code no matter which way up it is. This is why there are two codes - so the scanner can read it either way and verify the number. This is why there are two bars in the middle of the code - to tell the scanner where to begin. This is why there are two lines at either end of the code - to tell the scanner where to end. Hovind is heaping lie upon lie upon lie.
Hovind: "Why would they put a six at the beginning, middle and end? Why didnt they choose a two or a four? Its on every product. Check it out and see for yourself."
Obviously Hovind's brain power is severely limited (if it were not, he would not be a creationist), so let me help him out. The reason there are two lines with a white space in between is that the scanner reads not only the lines and spaces, but the width of the lines and spaces (how else would it read two or more consecutive ones or zeroes?). The two lines and space are to show the scanner where to begin and also what the width of a single line and space is, so it can tell when there are lines and spaces that are double, triple, or quadruple width."
Star - I don't mean to be dismissive of what you present. I just also need to point out that the knife cuts both ways. The NWO fearmongers have their own agenda as well. Their's is to shift power from technology and science to religious fundamentalism. In either scenario, each is dependent on us giving up our power to discriminate truth from fiction. We see that happening in this tribe right now. The fundamentalist scientist asks that we give up our power of subjective experience to the scientific method, Occam's Razor and objective analysis . In the end, both sides are flawed because both are dependent on exterior authority. I think the challenge of these times is for us to develop our inner sense of authority based on our own intuition and powers of discrimination.
Thank you for sharing your heartfelt concern and devotion to truth. It's beautiful.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 8:51 AMHi Steven,
Those are great points you are making - thanks.
My answer in the book about '666' came from John Michell's work - that 666 represents an amoral creation energy that was associated with the Chaldean snake deity Cheitan. As "mythic polarity" gave way to "mental-rational duality", and monotheism replaced poytheism, Cheitan was reduced, in the binary logic of Christianity, to Satan, and made entirely evil. The Glastonbury Abbey utilized "666" in its construction, which symbolized an understanding and integration of this pre-Christian power, and this is one of the reasons it was destroyed in the Middle Ages. So once again, I agree that this symbolically charged number is not personally associated with me; the work of philosophical integration that I am contributing to through the book is allowing this suppressed power and archetype back into the collective consciousness, so that we can mediate it and assign it its proper place. (As Steiner notes, Lucifer means "light-bringer).
I think that, even if I had spent a hundred pages explaining all of the reasons around reincarnation, 666, Quetz, in far more detail, it wouldn't necessarily have changed the reaction of people to the ideas in the book, especially the "botttomfeeders" you mention. It is still highly charged material, and people will come at it with their own karmic and psychological baggage. Many people are quite capable of reading the book without actually absorbing what I am saying, such as Mr Jarhead over at the NY Times, or Mr Hoopes.
I would add that the writing and publishing of the book was guided by spirit on many levels. My first publisher, Broadway Books, rejected the second draft of the book because of the material at the end, and I was very lucky to find another mainstream publisher in Tarcher/Penguin. I knew I would get a lot of charged reactions and angry projections for 666, Ashoka, Quetz, etc., but felt I had to present it anyway. Hopefully, as you suggest, it is better that all of that negativity and shadow stuff comes out and gets dispersed as quickly as possible. If this change is going happen as quickly as the thesis of the book suggests, then there is little time for negative energy to gather into some more coherent response.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 9:28 AMDaniel - when you say highly charged material, I would narrow that to the Quetz transmission I think. The rest was more narrative using richly explored material to color.
I wonder what the reaction to the book would have been if you had put the transmission up front and then worked your way to it in your journey. Just a stylistic thought I wonder if you considered that might have put the reader on your side to get underneath your Jonah tale. You might want to think about it for the movie :-) -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 1:56 PM"I wonder what the reaction to the book would have been if you had put the transmission up front and then worked your way to it in your journey."
That is how I experienced the book, since I had read the transmission on the net before the book came out, and I was interested in reading about the experiences that led to that and how Daniel handled it and integrated it. I agree with you, Steven, that is a more effective presentation, with the whole narrative of the book experienced as a flashback. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 6:45 PMgayle: "I agree with you, Steven, that is a more effective presentation, with the whole narrative of the book experienced as a flashback."
tried it this way with the first draft and it was a disaster. It wouldn't work for the 99% of potential readers who would find themselves affronted by such an assertion up front. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 7:33 PMMaybe it's a generational thing where counter-culture acceptance is part of my DNA so I would have no problem with an upfront set-up. Goes to show you that there's still a majority of people out there not ready to shake loose from their slumber. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 7:35 PMhaha! Steven..... we posted at the same Time! 7:33pm....
hmmmmm.... -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 8:32 PMJinx!
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 3, 2006 - 4:26 PMCome on Theo, Pinchbeck is no guru. He's simply shared his evolution in consciousness as spokesperson for himself - not for you or anyone else. I happen to have explored many of the roads Danial has explored incluing pychedelics, Steiner, Hopi's, Quantum Physics, Biblical text, Kabbalah and Jung. I find it very valuable to know that there are others on a similar road as myself and to hear other perspectives to help me better frame my own.
What you don't seem to understand is that the work is in the doing - carving the pychic roadmaps that others follow whether you've written them down in a book or downloaded into the collective. The Road Less Traveled is a paradox - as personal as it gets and as valuable to the many as Warren Buffet's billion dollar donations.
Danial quoted many of those who travelled the road earlier and in their own ways. This does not diminish the work - it amplifies the shared journey we are all on to reconnect with the one source of our being. I was even surpised when Sedna and Mars made their appearance in the book because I am also an astrologer. But after 30 years practicing, I found Danial's take on Sedna as symbolic of the return of the feminine to be mindblowing actually when one absorbs the myth of the skeleton woman. I had been working with Lilith up until now from the feminine shadow perspective with Sedna, there is a rebrith aspect to consider.
I've worked with a lot of the material in the book this way. This is great research and very coherant. I have not discovered a book with this much breathe and clarity in this field yet. Even the Aquarian Conspiracy many years ago pales in the attempt to give shape to the evolution of consciousness across multiple interlocking disciplines. Do you think it's easy to be able to intelligently speak in the languages of symbols and myth? As shallow as you think the work is, it's deep enough in my opinion to validate the work of many of us who have walked long and hard on the path with not much to show for it except being called upon to shine light in dark areas. Not much reward in that I can tell you but also not a whole lot of choice to bail out.
Daniel is not a prophet, not a guru, not a self-proclaimed leader. He is a journalist. He journals and hopes his take is as objective, clear, honest and relevant as required to broadcast his message with the least amount of filtering and static. I wanted to be a journalist because I wanted to write and wanted to make a difference with my writing. The stars didn't quite align for that to happen and found myself working in the business world. Does this mean I've sold out? That depends. If selling out is defined as compromising my integrity, then I've not sold out. By modeling that in the business world, I think others might see an alternative that works that the might not have considered if I did not hold the space for it.
If you define selling out as receiving compensation for your livliehood, then I'm not sure who wouldn't qualify as a sellout. Even the beggers get rewards for sticking their hands out.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 1:37 AMSidecross brought the wisdom, <me miss in eariler thread on Q3 or Q4...>and imo
it is BIG BIG TRUTH
that holds freedom in its full understanding...
oh yea baby THAT BIG
Bigger than a Baby Ruth even! (the Baby Ruth only bring the calories and transient pleasure, no comparison... though they are tasteeee)
(there is a silly dimension and i go there for refuge...often me likey the silly)
Re: maybe logic interviewWed, June 28, 2006 - 10:11 AM
‘"Shamanism is a linguistic interaction... [It] operates in the confines of language."
SIDECROSS responded to post:
That is a strange statement. Could you explain what you mean?’
To quote from John Lilly:
…“in the providence of the mind, what is believed to be true is true or becomes true, within limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the providence of the mind there are no limits.”
McKenna often spoke that that we can not progress and further than our language.
BIGBIG TRUTH
Carlos Casteneda put it very well:
from the Active Side of Infinity, intro:
Syntax
A man staring at his equations
said that the universe had a beginning.
there had been an explosion, he said.
A bang of bangs, and the Universe was born.
And it is expanding, he said.
He had even calculated the length of its life:
ten billion revolutions of the Earth around the Sun.
The entire globe cheered;
they found his calculations to be science.
None thought that by proposing that the Universe began,
the man had merely mirrored the syntax of his mother tongue;
a syntax which demands beginnings, like birth,
and developments, like maturation,
and ends, like death, as statements of facts.
The Universe began,
and it is getting old, the man assured us,
and it will dir, like all things die,
like he himself after confirming mathematically
the syntax of his mother tongue.
The Other Syntax
Did the Universe really begin?
Is the theory of the big bang true?
These are not questions, though they sound like they are.
Is the Syntax that requires beginnings, developments
and ends as statements of fact the only syntax that exists?
That's the real question.
There are other syntaxes.
There is one, for example, which demands that varieties
of intensity be taken as facts.
In that syntax nothing begins and nothing ends;
thus birth is not a clean, clear-cut event,
but a specific type of intensity,
and so is maturation, and so is death.
A man of that syntax, looking over his equations, finds that
he has calculated enough varieties of intensity
to say with authority
that the Universe never began
and will never end,
but that it has gone, and is going now, and will go
through endless fluctuations of intensity.
That man could very well conclude that the Universe itself
is the chariot of intensity
and that one can board it
to journey through changes without end.
He will conclude all that, and much more,
perhaps without ever realizing
that he is merely confirming
the syntax of his mother tongue.
BIGBIG
DEEPDEEP
Love
Light
Bow
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cyclical language & BIGBIGTRUTH
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 6:26 AM2 recent items i discovered to substaniate light's post:
first --
this one in the epoch times, a free newspaper available in nyc,
(it's published by the falun gong people, whatever you may think of them,
it's always full of juicy material, stories you won't find in the post/times/news/voice
and other wasteful tree transforms and subway firestarters)
www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-...612.html
random tangent:
it seems (to me at least) that the 'dreadful' science is moving closer and closer to kiss the breast of myth, even in spite of itself.
perhaps when myth leans over to receive its unconscious blessings, the two shall reunite.
and then all these arguments we've been having will be seen as irrelevant ignorance.
second --
last night, i was conversing with a friend
(a mutual friend with daniel i might add)
we were discussing our discussions here,
specifically this business of language.
she was telling me about her recent journey to patch adams' colony in west virginia.
one of the games they played was to create new words,
and then attempt to help others understand them,
without using any known words to define them.
later on, i was riding home on a brooklyn bus pondering all this,
as this whole 'lingustic shamanism' thing has rubbed me a bit harshly,
and i was wondering if and how my conditioning was preventing me from seeing it clearly.
then, i looked up at the adverts.
one of them was a 'poetry in motion' PSA from the MTA
(goddess bless them in spite of themselves)
this particular one contained the following synchroscrumptious verse:
Out beyond ideas of rightdoing & wrongdoing,
There is a field. I'll meet you there.
When the soul lies down in the grass,
The world is too full to think about
Ideas, language, even the phrase 'each other'
Doesn't make any sense.
~Rumi
right then, it all made sense.
if only for a moment.
but sometimes, that's all it takes.
wrote it down to share it with y'all
with the wish that we all find that field
admist the jungle of all these words.
big and small.
when you get there,
stay there for awhile,
and feel the sun on your face.
methinks language is only a tool.
and like drew has repeatedly said,
we have a choice between plow and hoe.
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Re: cyclical language & BIGBIGTRUTH
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 3:09 PMHey thanks for the link. Funny that it doesn't say it's from Falun Gong! The stories are great. I wonder if they're against the Chinese Government? haha.
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2012intuitiveenergeticevolution tribe
Fri, June 30, 2006 - 2:42 PMmore heart less head
more intuitive thinking
more work less debate
this is a great forum for debate
about 2012
but we needed another forum to be able to discuss the same things in different context
so i set it up...
come play
Love
Light
Bow
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 3:57 PMAnother recent book that may be of interest to some folks who've been following this thread:
Shamans/Neo-Shamans: Ecstasies, Alternative Archaeologies and Contermporary Pagans, by Robert Wallis
www.amazon.com/gp/product/041530203X
It's a bit pricey to buy, but a good university library should have it.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Wed, July 5, 2006 - 6:20 PMAnother (cheaper and shorter) one that I would recommend to everyone is:
Shamans and Religion: An Anthropological Exploration in Critical Thinking, by Alice Beck Kehoe
www.amazon.com/gp/product/1577661621
It works especially well when combined with the following article from a leading anthropological journal:
Klein, Cecelia F., Guzmán E., Mandell, E.C., Stanfield-Mazzi, M. The Role of Shamanism in Mesoamerican Art: A Reassessment. Current Anthropology June, 2002. Vol.43(3):383-419.
This one, which is directly relevant to studies of the ancient Maya, stirred up a hornet's nest of controversy and debate. (It's important to read the accompanying reviewers' comments in addition to the article itself.)
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 10, 2006 - 9:59 AMHoopes,
I'd be interested, if you had any personal experiences with psychedelics/hallucinogens?
I was surprised to read that your religion is "atheist" according to your bio.
Could you, please, provide a brief explanation, how can you truly participate in spiritual/theological/theosophical
disscussions while denying the existence of God?
Is there something in atheism that I don't get or this is a type of "personal atheism" I don't understand? Or maybe this part of your bio needs to be corrected?
Cheers,
Auton -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Mon, July 10, 2006 - 5:14 PMwww.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/t...rown.html
This is such an interesting question that I'm going to start a new thread. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, July 27, 2006 - 7:20 AMI am very pleased with this piece by Judith Lewis, appearing today in LA Weekly. It is the first write-up in the mainstream media that seemed to me to deal with the book itself, rather than the writer's projections on me and the subject (of course I admit I am biased):
www.laweekly.com/art+books...ess/14080/ -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, July 27, 2006 - 10:56 AMIt's disappointing that journalists don't go farther with their fact checking before perpetuating errors. This is not your responsibility. All they need to do is pick up the phone and talk to a specialist in ancient Mesoamerica. Or browse the web. Why is that so difficult?
Lewis writes: "According to the Maya and Toltec cultures of midmillenial Mesoamerica, the year 2012 marks the end of a 5,125 'great cycle'."
Despite what you claim in your book, I'm unaware of any evidence to indicate that the Toltecs were cognizant of 2012. If you (or anyone else) can provide some sources for this, I'd be most grateful. I know it's useful to assert the Toltec link in order be consistent with mention of the Central Mexican deity Quetzalcoatl, but the Postclassic Maya of the Yucatan (who, incidentally, were not using the Long Count and therefore may have also been completely ignorant of 2012), were referring to this deity as "Kukulcan". Your book implies that there is some connection between 2012 and the "return of Quetzalcoatl" myth of the Toltecs and/or Aztecs, but fails to provide any evidence in support of this assertion. There is a great deal of debate about the concept of "Toltec Maya", which is by no means universally accepted. In fact, several prominent scholars have asserted that the influence on the Maya was first from Teotihuacan, not the Toltecs, and that the similarities between Chichén Itzá and Tula are due to Maya influence on the Toltecs, not the reverse.
I presume that "midmillenial Mesoamerica" means AD 500 and not AD 1500 (by which time the Long Count had been long fogotten). In fact, the earliest Long Count dates that presume a 3113 BC starting date (and, by implication, an AD 2012 end date) appear on monuments from the first century BC. There are reasons to suspect that this system may have been developed even earlier, perhaps as early as 500 BC (which could also be "midmillenial", but it's helpful to specify *which* millennium). It's an odd term.
Technically, "Great Cycle", like "Long Count", should by convention be set with caps.
The best thing about Lewis review is that's she's very honest about her perspective, writing, "Personally, I’ve always felt a little embarrassed about how well I fit into this state of California, vaguely ashamed of my own interest in the occult, in Jung’s synchronicity, and my hallucinogen-fueled belief in a metaphysical force operating in some unknown realm."
There's a quote from you, Daniel: "'There’s a new cultural energy that could be transformative,' he said, 'when the kind of countercultural, spiritual and mystical comes together with the new-left progressive compassion. That’s when a new activist culture will emerge.'"
It's a wonderful thought, but it's been my experience in this Tribe that the flipside of "new-left progressive compassion" may be the same old intolerance and condemnation that comes from any group who thinks it has a monopoly on "truth" and therefore stands on higher ethical ground.
Does the new "compassion" also include compassion (if not respect) for mainstream intellectuals, accomplished scientists, dedicated scholars, and also devoted practitioners of traditional religions?
I didn't think so. -
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the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Thu, July 27, 2006 - 2:25 PMhoopes,
first a question --
if the postclassic maya of the yucatan were ignorant of the 'long count', how does this account for the calendar stele found in coba?
from a google: "Cobá reached its peak in the Late Classic period around 600 A.D., and eventually fell before might of Chichén Itzá sometime around 950 A.D. although was inhabited well into the 1300's."
btw, this is an honest inquiry for archeological evidence and knowledge, i'm not baiting you here....yet :)
second a comment to consider --
i believe you make an extremely astute observation regarding the dark flipside of the 'new left'. if i may add a footnote to your proposition that even the simple sense of classifying itself on one side of the seesaw is not really an evolution of consciousness, considering it still traps us in a false dichotomy of polarization (left vs. right, progressive vs conversative, feminine vs. masculine, belief vs skepticism, spirtualism vs materialism, subjective vs. objective), and thus just simply swings the seesaw to one's chosen side with more vitriol and force, but not enough to escape the boundaries of action and reaction (btw, thanks ian und herr steiner).
nonetheless, is not your quick and trite assumption of the answer before giving anyone a chance to respond not only making the same exact error of polarization which you've observed? does it not also not give proper respect to the scientific method in which you salute? you have proposed a question, an hypothesis, but in your rush to judgement, have squashed all possibilites at achieving an unbiased proof by experiment, for your fast dismissal only sets the people that you asking further into the groove of defense, rebuttal and reaction...thus corrupting the experiment from jump?
it's like the americans proposing to the world that there are terrorists in iraq, then bombing the entire country immediately, then watching their inevitable violent reactions and saying 'see, i told you there were terrorists in iraq!'
or like materazzi whispering into zidane's ear during the world cup final that his mother's a muslim whore and that he's gonna fuck his sister, pinching his nipple, provoking a reaction that he predicts will happen based on zidane's past history...then when zidane headbutts in retaliation and frustration, italy cries foul and labels zidane the sole aggressor, thus 'proving' their hypothesis. zidane gets the red card, italy wins the game, but was it fair play and what exactly did italy prove?
i'm sure we could all come up with some further examples as it seems this tactic (whether consciously or unconsciously) is being used a lot these days on both ends of the seesaw, but hopefully you get the gist...
it's a shame really, because up until that last sentence, it was such an eloquently framed, heartfelt question that struck right to the core of the matter in a way that i feel may have finally inspired the much needed stripping of certain unseen layers of subjective conditioning in many of us here, both through the head (the dialectic) and through the heart (the plea of compassion). then you pulled a zidane and the heart was gone (once again).
...and the drama continues as the world turns...
but then again, maybe this is an indication we are all getting closer here and there and elsewhere, perhaps within even 10 minutes of finishing overtime and into penalty kicks....but then using that analogy, we would still have to wait another 4 years to start the whole thing over again.
...luckily, tribe revolves at a much quicker pace than soccer (or war for that matter)...
i also personally find it interesting that the roles seem to be swapping back and forth so frequently, even in the course of one match, conflict or argument. perhaps this is more evidence to support the hypothesis that we are spiralling closer and closer to the center...
~~~~~> O <~~~~~
and with this viewpoint
somewhat close but still too far,
doctor, i thank you for sharing...
even the last sentence. -
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Thu, July 27, 2006 - 3:16 PMLittlefish, I really appreciate your giving serious thought to this stuff. There is a huge amount of fluff out there, so why not hold this knowledge to the same standards we use for evaluating myths about WMDs, causes of global warming, and the conflict in the Middle East?
"from a google: 'Cobá reached its peak in the Late Classic period around 600 A.D., and eventually fell before might of Chichén Itzá sometime around 950 A.D. although was inhabited well into the 1300's.'"
about AD 900 or so (I don't remember the last Long Count date.You don't say which "calendar stela" you mean, but there are no contradictions here. Cobá has LOTS of Classic Period (AD 200-900) stelae with Long Count dates on them. These pertain to the period of "its peak". The "Classic" period is actually defined in part by the presence of Long Count dates, the most recent of which comes from Toniná (in Chiapas) and dates to AD 909. What I refer to as "ignorance" doesn't mean that the *ancestors* of these people didn't know about the Long Count. There are many Long Count inscriptions in the Yucatan, from both the Early and Late Classic periods. By "ignorant", I mean there is no evidence that Mayas living in the Yucatan at sites like Chichén Itzá used the Long Count after the early 10th century. (I should also add that there is little evidence of "Toltecs" at Cobá, though the invaders from Chichén probably had some ancient connections with central Mexico--most likely with Teotihuacan).
Postclassic Maya, by definition, date to after AD 1000 (during the "Postclassic" period, which by definition comes *after* the Classic period). It is certainly possible that traditions of the Long Count may have continued at Cobá after its defeat, but there are no known inscriptions from the site to prove this. They may have kept this informaion on codices, but none have survived. However, it is also possible that information about the Long Count, which was used for documenting the genealogies and exploits of Maya royalty, was not something known to the masses. With the defeat of Cobá, there may have been no one left who kept this form of calendar. At any rate, there is very little evidence with which to assert that there was any use of the Long Count at Cobá after the end of the Classic period (the Dresden Codex contains some hints of a continued use of the Long Count in some places, but we don't know where or for how long).
The issue is one of *lost* knowledge, not unlike what happened in the Mediterranean after the library of Alexandra burned down. A huge amount of information was lost during the Maya "collapse" (actually a decline in specific regions), which occurred in the late 800s and early 900s. Much of what was left was destroyed, of course, by the Spanish Conquest in the early 1500s.
You're right about my "quick and trite assumption of the answer". I let my emotions get the best of me. I guess that's one of the problems with being a person and not a machine. It was a baiting technique and and unfair tactic, albeit an accurate way to paint how I feel with words. I'm not a scientist but a human being, and I do feel resentment at how individuals who have devoted their lives to doing their homework get slammed and mocked. I'm ashamed of getting angry from time to time, but I do treasure my inner emotional life as much as anyone here.
"it's a shame really, because up until that last sentence, it was such an eloquently framed, heartfelt question that struck right to the core of the matter in a way that i feel may have finally inspired the much needed stripping of certain unseen layers of subjective conditioning in many of us here, both through the head (the dialectic) and through the heart (the plea of compassion). then you pulled a zidane and the heart was gone (once again)."
Like I said. I'm sorry that my heart got in the way of my head when emotions overrode good sense. I should clarify that I was specifically addressing Daniel with that remark, not you or other thoughtful individuals on this thread.
"i also personally find it interesting that the roles seem to be swapping back and forth so frequently, even in the course of one match, conflict or argument. perhaps this is more evidence to support the hypothesis that we are spiralling closer and closer to the center..."
That's a very astute observation. The trick is to sustain the spiral towards the center without getting knocked off kilter by things like feelings. How can we honor and cherish our gut reactions while still keeping our heads about us in addressing hard questions? That's what makes it so tough.
Vegans, PETA activists, psi believers, and UFO enthusiasts often get carried away with their emotions in slamming whoever they identify as the enemy. We know that's true for fundamentalists of every stripe. i personally don't think it's helpful when scientists mock Creationists or crop circle devotees, but that doesn't mean I don't also think some of what comes out is hilariously funny.
I think perhaps my biggest fault (and I know I'm not alone) is in taking things too seriously. The fact that people who would never think that Charlemagne (600s) and Christopher Columbus (1500s) believed the same things yet still conflate the Classic and Postclassic Maya shouldn't be such a big deal. Logic that would conflate Beowulf (1100s) with Shakespeare (1600s) isn't such an issue, is it? The fact that the Toltecs and the Mayas were as different from each other as Renaissance Germany and Medieval Spain should be of much consequence, either. Should it? Unfortunately, this knowledge is still too arcane to make good jokes about it without coming across as a hopeless nerd, so I don't even try.
Sigh. -
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Thu, July 27, 2006 - 3:19 PM"...about AD 900 or so"
Sorry, in rereading what I wrote I see that something got snipped. The sentence should have read "The Late Classic period is defined in part by the use of Long Count inscriptions, the last of which were carved about AD 900 or so."
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Thu, July 27, 2006 - 3:38 PMBy the way, I do think that compassion is central to resolving the world's problems. This is something that the Dalai Lama, as a bodhisattva of Avalokiteshvara, the Buddha of Compassion, has devoted his own lifte to teaching.
In my own practice, I do strive to feel compassion and empathy, and through those to find an understanding and appreciation of worldviews very different from my own, including those of new religions such as the Mormons and Raelians as well as fundamentalist Muslims, Jews, and Christians. There has been quite a bit of condemnation of both science and religion in this thread. It seems odd to me that one of the individuals responsible for that is now preaching compassion.
I am still awaiting an apology for a severe and totally uncalled for tongue lashing that I received from Daniel in mid-May, back at the very beginning of this long debate. Until it's delivered, I remain deeply skeptical of both his methods and motivations. Maybe that's too personal, but it's my own reality. To be honest, my feelings about that have given an edge to all that's followed.
There is a dark side to the "spiritual left" that is not all light, peace, and understanding. No serious study of shamans can ignore the fact that the same powers used to heal can also be used to cause great harm. That's true for science and religion, too, as we know all too well. -
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Unsu...
Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Fri, July 28, 2006 - 8:37 AM>>There is a dark side to the "spiritual left" that is not all light, peace, and understanding.<<
True Love/Compassion knows no left nor right.
Anyone who thinks that he is spiritually superior to someone else is ignorant.
They have not attained any realization
Just more ego clinging....
'nuf said
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Sat, July 29, 2006 - 10:09 PMI agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. However, here's a disturbing quotation from a email sent out on Friday by Carl Johan Calleman:
"The truly spiritual people in the area are the ones that will seek to transcend the limitations of the scriptures, Torah, Bible and Quran, which to a large extent have been used to legitimize superiority. The truly spiritual people in the area are the ones that realize that in the Galactic Underworld national and religious borders are of the past and must be transcended. Maybe the real calling of Israel, and the reason that a conflict has arisen there again involving some of the world’s largest religions, is that the balancing of the left brain dominance must begin exactly where it first emerged. Maybe God’s calling for Israel/Palestine is that it should be a land where all religions belong, and the place where these, under the influence of the consciousness field of the Galactic Underworld were able to transcend their differences. Only such a multireligious presence in the area would pave the way to a New Jerusalem."
It looks as if at least one faction of 2012 millenialism is now coming full circle, using metaphors of the "New Jerusalem" that have been around since at least the 15th century. Christopher Columbus thought it was to be established in the New World, but it looks as if Calleman wants to take it back to the Holy Land. I could be mistaken, but I see anti-Semitism once again raising its ugly head, now in the midst of the 2012ers.
Will the New Agers become the Crusaders of the 21st century, denying the legitimacy of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity?
Talk about the "dark side". Things could get very ugly indeed.
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Sat, July 29, 2006 - 10:46 PMHoopes: "Will the New Agers become the Crusaders of the 21st century, denying the legitimacy of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity?"
Me: We are at least as "idealistic" as your generation. P.S. "The older generation cannot be trusted" is a seriously cool quote from a seriously important movie.
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Tue, August 1, 2006 - 2:48 PMi have not gotten to the original thread you quoted yet hoopes, but this idea about the 'birthplace' of our 'modern' religions has been niggling at me lately....
the way i 'look' at it though is different...
i keep wondering if there is a gateway/doorway/vortex to a dimension that spurs these types of thought structures (religious/spirtual) and if the escalating turbulence is a sign of soemthing new trying to break through... and in it's manifestation old structures are about to be obliterated... i used to believe in the superiority of Buddhism, but i have matured enough to realize that all these paths are necessary, and perhaps all shall be outgrown and fall away and take new forms and structures as we evolve. i don't believe anyone has a lock on spirtual superiority.... it seems to be that the more spirtually in touch you are the easier it is to feel humility and not be afraid to admit a mistake or say you are sorry... because your ego has less and less say... i think.. but the road to enlightenment is not without the repsonse of the Ego... it fights tooth and nail to maintain control and its roots go deep... and the greater the spirtual realization the greater the reponse of ego.... so a person may have a great spirtual insight and thinking that they have achieved it are not ready for the the repsonse of the ego...the Master Syndrome.. i know and you don't.....
frankly the more i 'see' the less i know... it is so subjective to our life experiences and reality is suprisingly flexible and maleable.. i find myself wondering if on my Buddhist path i have simply traded one worldview for another equally subjective worldview, but one that allows for greater manipulation of 'reality'... more and more it becomes clear to me that there is the Infinite to know, and yet there is really Nothing to know....so i have become quite ambivilant about life lately... more and more detached... what do outcomes matter, what does suffering or non-suffering matter it is all the infinite figuring out that it is the Infinite... maybe...possibly
the only thing i can say with any conviction is that ...
ha i have nothing to say with any conviction
for to do so just might make it so and who am i to decide what is to be or not be...
Love
Light
Bow -
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Tue, August 1, 2006 - 3:27 PMDearest Light,
The point of seeking is not finding, just as
the point of living is not dying.
The point of being is not just to be, but to be better..
There is a lot that is appealing in Buddhism for me, too. However, pursuit of the escape of suffering seems to me to make about as much sense as seeking light without color, hue, or shadow or sound without tone, rhythm, or silence.
Objectivity is what makes it possible for us to communicate
Subjectivity is what makes it worth doing.
My palms gently touch each other
inches from my lips,
as I nod
and smile. -
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Wed, August 2, 2006 - 1:17 AMahhh
i did not explain myself well...
it is not an end to suffering...
or pain....
it has just lost the label of 'bad thing'
it is an experience
a moment
that is and then there is another moment
another experience
they are neither good nor bad they just are...
of course i would prefer them all to be fun with much laughter involved...
welll laughter is always involved as i look back and laugh...
i was upset about what?????
i find the detachment is more about what i think should or should not happen
not about pain or suffering joy or bliss... those are some of the many colors
but about outcomes and should bes...
Love
Light
Bow -
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 2:10 PMHoopes,
it bugs me a little that despite the fact you know i have a nuanced understaning of this subject you marginalize what i (or Daniel or Jenkins or whoever else) has to say and think your framed paper supports you
so much invested with so little gained it would seem
maybe it's not so much about digging up the past as living in the now
a fantasy that i have learned to experience from what i would call
*ssshhhhhhhh* say it soft now
MAYA
but now that's a loaded word!
guess i better explain myself...
well umm, academic itza, y'see ..... well i was just really interested in this and i found a lot of personal support and a feeling of grace and it was like a little doorway opened in the spacetime fabric where i remembered gestation and passageways from planet to planet, supernova stardust and cocoon fabric giving way to butterfly wing
i know this poetry nonsense is gonna put the noose fear round my neck at zuyua
but i recall you contacted me to be your friend once when i shared some personal experienced i had in coming to experience illusion
yes Hoopes the academic correctness to which you cling is so much illusion... maya
when you EXPERIENCE the fantasy the illusion is real
I hope you find the magic Hoopes
whatever form it may take in your life
growin corn this year? -
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 2:53 PM"it bugs me a little that despite the fact you know i have a nuanced understaning of this subject you marginalize what i (or Daniel or Jenkins or whoever else) has to say and think your framed paper supports you"
You'll have to explain what you mean by "marginalize". What in the world have I done to "marginalize" this work? If you don't think that my discussions of this work on in multiple threads on this tribe and elsewhere hasn't been an attempt to bring it to the forefront of people's consciousness, then you haven't been paying attention. Have I made any comments *anywhere* to the effect that I don't think people should read or consider the work by Daniel Pinchbeck, John Major Jenkins, Geoff Stray, Carl Johan Calleman, or others? To the contrary, I think the 2012 stuff represents a trend that is at least as important as the Y2K hype. It will change consciousness, hopefully for the better, if it gets people to pay attention and learn what is actually known about ancient Precolumbian cultures of the Americas.
However, this will ONLY work if people read all this stuff *critically*, realizing how both blatant and subtle errors, spin, subtexts, and subliminal messages are used to manipulate understading. If you're using the word "marginalize" to characterize my criticisms of errors and inaccuracies, then the problem is that you're using the wrong word. I'm "marginilizing" this work in the same sense that the international press is "marginalizing" the conflict in Lebanon.
By the way, my "framed papers" are currently in a corner of my basement and have not hung on a wall anywhere for over a year now. It's not because I don't value them--I do--but because I would rather be judged on the basis of who I am rather than what people (including you) perceive me to be based on their own preconceptions and prejudices.
It was never my intention to disrespect you or your knowledge of ancient Mesoamerica. I just thought your use of the antiquated term "Toltec-Maya" deserved comment. That's all.
Why are you so defensive?
If you don't think I'm interested in magic, you don't know me well at all, my friend.
If poetry is what satisfies, why do you need science?
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Fri, July 28, 2006 - 8:46 AMprof hoopes,
i honestly don't feel i owe you an apology. I believe that you went out of your way to put my work down and piss me off, and i feel our subsequent dialogue with other participants has revealed how shallow your thinking remains, on many levels. This doesn't mean that I disrespect academic knowledge and training - whether yours or other peoples' - but it needs to be contextualized and understood for what it is, and what it ain't. Academic specialization does not give the specialist the capability to make larger syntheses, and can even cut people off from that potential and fill them with unreasonable hostility toward those who attempt multi-disciplinary "thought experiments" such as mine. As I said before, I don't really see our continuing dialogue is a productive use of my own psychic energy at this point in time.
I also think that one form of compassion is "fierce compassion," which doesn't shy away from anger and conflict, but rather goes right to the heart of it rather than storing up secret resentments that then flare up in other ways, later. -
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Re: the search for the Q of calendars & compassion
Sat, July 29, 2006 - 10:55 PM"i honestly don't feel i owe you an apology. I believe that you went out of your way to put my work down and piss me off, and i feel our subsequent dialogue with other participants has revealed how shallow your thinking remains, on many levels."
That's doesn't surprise me, Daniel. It's been obvious to me since our encounter last year at Burning Man (shall I reveal the details?) that you have given yourself over to Ego. I do feel as if I'm owed an apology, whether you think so or not. That sentiment grows with every insult.
"Academic specialization does not give the specialist the capability to make larger syntheses, and can even cut people off from that potential and fill them with unreasonable hostility."
I don't know what you mean by "academic specialization". Anyone who has read my posts here or elsewhere knows that I have a broad perspective. They can decide whether you or I (if either) is more capable of making "larger syntheses".
Daniel, I had NO hostility towards you AT ALL until you verbally assaulted me just for using the phrase of "wide-eyed gullibility" in my May 15 post in the following thread:
2012.tribe.net/thread/348...928cc2aa858
Here is the exact comment to which you felt so compelled to respond by screaming obscenities at me over the phone:
"I'm now about halfway through Daniel's book. I will try to find the time to post some detailed commentary when I've finished it. I have to say that I'm disappointed by Daniel's wide-eyed gullibility when it comes to issues like ESP, crop circles, alien abductions, ancient civilizations, and the like. He seems intent on styling himself as the Art Bell of the 'lit scenester' crowd."
You responded to this by writing:
"It may be that people like you - who have been indoctrinated in a secular materialist worldview that allows them a comfortable academic life - will have to read the book more than once to separate their own prejudgements from what is actually present on the page, and in the reality of these phenomena."
I did not say that YOU were "indoctrinated" or prejudiced, or presumptuously slap a label on your worldview. All I did was to cast doubt on some of your interpretations. (I invite anyone who has just arrived to look at the initial messages in this thread--which I started back in March--and decide whether it was I who went "out of my way" to put down Daniel's work or piss him off. I think the record will show that it was Daniel, not I, who initiated what became a hostile exchange. That was never my intention. It was clearly his.)
To recap for those who don't know, when I phoned YOU (on Monday, May 15) to try and take our discussion offline, YOU became hostile and aggressive, shouting at me fuck this and fuck that and saying my ideas were fucked. It is not I who was hostile, Daniel. YOU were the one who gave into anger, that ugliest and most dangerous of human emotions. NOT me. A journalist screaming at a university professor. Not a pretty picture. You then said (or lied?) that you hoped we'd be able to have further conversations with me. However, you didn't even respond to my personal messages, much less make any attempt to follow up on our turbulent conversation.
You write: "I also think that one form of compassion is 'fierce compassion,' which doesn't shy away from anger and conflict, but rather goes right to the heart of it rather than storing up secret resentments that then flare up in other ways, later."
I'm ready to go right to the heart of it with you any time you like, Daniel.
Shall we reserve a bout in Thunderdome under Death Guild's watchful eye?
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, July 27, 2006 - 8:40 PMDaniel, I'm glad L.A. Weekly did that article. They are among the few in the mainstream, or nearly mainstream media who are likely to treat such a subject matter with any intelligence and fairness. The NY Times is infamous for assigning books to completely inappropriate reviewers. You can't really expect anything better from such icons of the old, disintegrating order. To be open to the kind of material covered in your book would be, indirectly, to admit their rapidly fading relevance. They have to pretend that mainstream reality is solid, permanent and inevitable. Anyway, glad the book is doing well.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, July 28, 2006 - 8:28 AM>>“And that,” he said, “is when the shift will happen.”<<
it should be: and then the shit will happen..... -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, July 28, 2006 - 8:47 AMone more, a surprising piece from the usually conservative Raliegh News and Observer:
www.newsobserver.com/105/sto...209.html -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, July 28, 2006 - 8:57 AMHuh, cool article (the ones who interview you seem to do better than the ones who read the book, or only read the book) but it's kind of funny that the article bothers to tell people how to pronounce "Quetzalcoatl" but gets it wrong.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, July 28, 2006 - 10:53 AM>Pinchbeck, a long and scraggly dude who fits the visual stereotype of a trip-taker, made a crack about being 40 minutes late.That kind of late is late, but not really late, kind of like rock-star late.
>"Yeah, it seems like I'm some kind of prophet," he said, stretching his answer to include his idea that, to a certain extent, prophecy is a deeper level of attunement to the situation we're in.
hope you're enjoying your trip :) -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, July 28, 2006 - 5:31 PMhowday Hoopes,
sorry we couldn't connect on your layover, was engaged in Dreamspell Uayeb gathering... ah well,
here's some evidence of Postclassic Chichen Itza's (Toltec-Maya) indication of the 2013 shift of eras courtesy John Major Jenkins
www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/5.htm
information also available in his tome 'Cosmogenesis 2012'
may be a bit speculative, but if you can draw the parallel between the serpent-shadow's rattle at the top of the pyramid with the pleiades directly above it at zenith it's a convincing arguement
(the word 'tzab' was used both for the serpent's rattle and the pleiades, given the Mayan propensity for such word plays it would be difficult to argue that the connection was lost on them)
>>>.When the Toltec people moved to Chichen Itza, they merged their own zenith cosmology with the Mayan system, and the result was the Pyramid of Kukulcan. This has been designed so that every year, on Spring Equinox, the afternoon sun causes a shadow play so that it appears that a huge serpent is descending from the sky, down the pyramid. However, John Major Jenkins shows that the pyramid is much more than an equinox indicator. It is a ‘PRECESSIONAL CLOCK WITH ITS ALARM SET FOR THE TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY’.
>>>Jenkins says that Kukulcan, (or Quetzalcoatl, the plumed serpent), was the symbol of a sun-Pleiades-zenith conjunction. Exactly 60 days after the Spring Equinox, on May 20, the zenith passage of the sun takes place over Chichen Itza. The Crotalus rattlesnake, whose pattern is constantly used in Mesoamerican art, has a marking on it which is identical to the Solar ‘Ahau’ glyph of the Maya, and its rattle was called ‘tzab’, which is the same word used for the Pleiades star cluster
>>>The moving snake on the Pyramid is an annual reminder of a conjunction of the zenith sun with the Pleiades over Chichen Itza, but this is an event which will only occur during a 72-year time window, from 1976 to 2048. Right at the centre of this time window is the year 2012, when the Great Cycle ends. On May 20 2012, the zenith passage combines with a solar eclipse, on the Tzolkin day 10 Chichan, which means serpent.
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weather this was all deliberate, or weather or not Toltec is the right word (we've discussed the amibuity of such terms), you gotta admit it's cool!
another indicator of 'Toltec' knowlege of the 2013 shift of ages is the 22 calendar-round prophecy cycle which ended in 1987
not exactly 2012, but i find it interesting that right in between 1987 and 2012 (1999) is when the winter-solstice sun was most closely aligned with the galactic equator
and i gotta rib ya a litte cos you say "In fact, the earliest Long Count dates that presume a 3113 BC starting date (and, by implication, an AD 2012 end date) appear on monuments from the first century BC." when the 'correct' year is 3114 BC (or -3113). not that i really think there's much point in quibbling over such trifles (anyone who really wants to know for sure will calculate the days themselves anyway, i've done it) but it's funny to me to see you make the 'error' because it's trifling things like this that lead some use as evidence that Arguelles for example is a new-age buffoon (see Geoff Stray's review of Pinchbeck's '2012' and you'll see what i mean)
so ya, given the dresden codex long-count dates, the pyramid of kukulkan alignment, and the 22 calendar-round prophecy cycle, the idea that a shift of ages in our present era was acknowledged by some postclassic mesoamericans seems reasonable enough
you can bitch and moan all you want about misinformation, but the reality is that most people are not going to plunge into the intricate specifics of such things like you and i will
how 'bout we just be happy that awareness is increasing and do our part to keep it real
peace
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 29, 2006 - 7:57 AMposted this on my tribe blog, but thought many here would find it an interesting read:
Neal Pollack offers this excellent review of the new Leary biography in the current issue of The Nation. He also discusses my books at the end of his review, and credits my work with inspiring him to revisit the psychedelic experience as an adult:
www.thenation.com/doc/20060814/pollack
It is refreshing to read this after The New Yorker and New York Times Book Review pieces on the Leary biography, which took the opportunity to trash Leary without even mentioning the possible validity of non-ordinary states of consciousness and what made Leary such an important figure in the first place. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sun, July 30, 2006 - 12:00 AM"... what made Leary such an important figure in the first place."
Which, I guess, is why the title of your chapter on Leary in BOtH is called "A Pathetic Clown Act".
Lest readers forget, you've done some trashing of Leary yourself, writing, "This 'high priest' of psychedelia led his acolytes astray, abandoning them to float in a mind-blown void" (p. 182).
You also quoted (albeit disapprovingly) the late Hunter S. Thompson, who wrote:
"What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped to create... a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential age-old mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody--or at least some force--is tending that light at the end of the tunnel."
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, July 29, 2006 - 11:44 PM"you can bitch and moan all you want about misinformation, but the reality is that most people are not going to plunge into the intricate specifics of such things like you and i will"
No, and that pretty much sums up how several major world religions got their start. The individuals who have plunged into the intricate specifics of things like the origins of Christianity or the life of Joseph Smith have come up with very different interpretations than true believers, but who the hell cares? Osiris, Mithras, Jesus, Mayas, Toltecs... All of that stuff is way too complicated. Just make up some good myths with timely messages and an effective marketing strategy. That's all that really matters, right?
I have a lot of respect for John Major Jenkins' diligence, but he's an autodidact and independent scholar, not someone with an academic background in Mesoamerican archaeology. The phrase, "When the Toltec people moved to Chichen Itza" is not really so different from "When pharoah's daughter found baby Moses in the bulrushes" for many archaeologists. As I mentioned before, despite "common knowledge," the identification of "Toltecs" at Chichén Itzá is a matter of significant debate. Linda Schele and David Freidel sharply critiqued the myth of "Toltec" Chichén in their book "A Forest of Kings" (1990), noting that the available hieroglyphic inscriptions do not support the idea of a migration of Toltecs and favor the model of a site continuously occupied by the Maya, albeit sustaining significant interaction with central Mexican peoples.
This argument has developed further since then, and there are many experts who do not feel that the concept of "Toltecs" applies to Chichén Itzá. The most developed analysis of this issue is Erik Boot's dissertation, "The Inscriptions of Chichén Itzá" (University of Leiden, 2003). Erik knows this material better than anyone else I've met.
It's tremendously ironic that people who otherwise pride themselves on sharp, critical thinking have failed to question conventional interpretations of "Toltec Chichén" that have been around since Sylvanus Morley's work in the 1920s (and earlier). However, the label "Toltec" suits the marketing strategies of individuals selling "Toltec wisdom", such as appears in:
"The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom, A Toltec Wisdom Book"
www.amazon.com/gp/product/1878424505
and
"The Complete Idiot's Guide to Toltec Wisdom"
www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592573924
Hence the attempts to construe mythology as history at the same time that archaeologists are discarding the terminology.
I should mention that a scientific deconstruction of myth is also changing the way that archaeologists see the Bible:
"The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New View of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts"
www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684869136
and
"What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?: What Archaeology Can Tell Us About the Reality of Ancient Israel"
www.amazon.com/gp/product/080282126X
As the Romans said, "There is nothing new under the sun."
The contemporary writing of "Toltec gospels" is to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam what the writing of the New Testament was to the pagan world of the apostles. It's fascinating to see things circle around this way, but disheartening to watch how quickly people who one would expect to be the *most* critical of conventional knowledge picking up and putting on the same old mantle of invented "truth" (with the accompanying prejudice and intolerance). Sigh... -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, August 1, 2006 - 6:54 PMwell i guess if i invite you to it i shouldn't be suprised when you take me up
amazing, you can't even take a minute to say WOW
this mystique of the maya that we're into really is amazing
amazing how it speaks through time and cosmos
magically inviting us to step through the doors of synchronicity and analogy
speaking poet's science of the galactic wyrm-hole
the universal soul
no, no TIME to consider the POETRY
in babylon we segregate our disciplines and any Johnny Cum-Laude with an Autodidact degree... well he aint been initiated into the chosen priesthood like ME!
right?
hahahah
this is exactly why i dropped out of college Hoopes,
professors like you!
it must be discouraging to see those able to think and learn on their own and self-sufficient enough to succeed without the system's official endorsement to outperform you at your own academic game
so what is it specifically about Jenkins you have issue with? it's just easy i guess to lump him into a lesser-than category and move on with the syllabus in due-time eh?
i remember this. bring up an idea the teacher's never considered before and be blown off because you're not reciting the prescribed dialectic
no time to think new when you're stuck reciting the old
so no no no no NO, it's not about investigating the messages of the cosmos
the maya cycles are a new-age hoax!
we're better off just debunking anything in sight 'till we're in a morass of unuseable inflammatory jargon
here in babylon we take the use of the word 'TOLTEC' very seriously
right?
billy? did you use TOLTEC out of context? go wash your mouth with soap!
haha the idea that Toltec might just be general term for stylistic motif with epicenter in central mexico
don't people understand this?
no, let's confiscate and complicate the term so no one knows how to use it and we can pat ourselves on the back saying how stupid everyone is
you know the type, the sheep, the ones who thing the New Testament has any worth!
they might be wrested from our scholastic clutches if they catch wind of 'Toltect Wisdom for Dummies'
oh please professor Hoopes, do protect us from these nefarious perpetrators of misinformation! why without your crusade we could be privy to all sorts of attacks from the imagination! we might have to think for ourselves!
terrors!
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, August 1, 2006 - 7:11 PMthe artistry of postclassic Chichen Itza is Toltec-Maya
the terms are used to denote sytles of life and artwork which througouth mesoamerican history were distinct yet interconnected.
Toltec is generally used to describe styles more prevalent in central mexico while Maya styles are more prevalent in the jungles to the south
however Toltec influence is evident in Maya areas and Maya influence is evident Toltec areas
in terms of race and geography it is difficult if not impossible to separate the two
this doesn't mean the terms are useless, rather that they should be understood in a broad sense
so if a modern-day spritually sensitive seeker experiences something profound that they feel connects them to the spirits of the 'Toltec' why shouldn't they write about this?
or do they need to thouroughly research their ancestry and determine exactly what clan and language group they belong to and which ancient sites their blood-ancestorys inhabited before using any such vauge term as Toltec ?
if only all the mystics and poets had to conform to academic standards then all this misinfo would stop and we could get on with things i suppose -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, August 1, 2006 - 10:05 PM"the artistry of postclassic Chichen Itza is Toltec-Maya"
Now who's sounding authoritarian?
"Toltec is generally used to describe styles more prevalent in central mexico while Maya styles are more prevalent in the jungles to the south"
So what's "Toltec-Maya"?
Central Mexico? Like at Teotihuacan? Cacaxtla? Cholula? Xochicalco? "Jungle" is a fairly non-specific term. There ain't no rainforest in the northern Yucatan. Who was it that lived in highland Guatemala during the Postclassic? Toltecs? Mayas? Or somebody else?
"this doesn't mean the terms are useless, rather that they should be understood in a broad sense"
Sure. Broad enough to assign them any value that you choose.
Both the "Mayas" and the "Toltecs", not to mention--oh shit--the "Olmecs" and even the "Aztecs" have been construed as blank canvases upon which virtually any fantasy can be painted. Like the "Jews", the "blacks", and the "Americans", these are all fairly meaningless labels when divorced from the reality of specific details.
Let me know when you want to talk specifics and we'll be ready to rumble.
"if only all the mystics and poets had to conform to academic standards then all this misinfo would stop and we could get on with things i suppose"
I guess you never heard of "poetic license". Think of all that Renaissance art that has Mary, Jesus, and the impoverished saints wearing flowing silk robes. Didn't you ever watch Charlton Heston in "The Ten Commandments"? That famous scene with the Red Sea parting? As far as playing fast and loose with the facts goes, the work to which this thread is dedicated is an excellent example of that. So, we come full circle...
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 3:18 PM"so if a modern-day spritually sensitive seeker experiences something profound that they feel connects them to the spirits of the 'Toltec' why shouldn't they write about this?"
Well, we've discussed the term "Maya" a bit, which is a historical fabrication.
"Toltec" is also a complex term.
The "Aztecs" (a general term applied to the Triple Alliance of the Mexica, Texcocans, and Tacubans, which was dominated by the Mexica) used the term "Toltec" as a general reference to "the ancient ones". Their principal temple (the "Templo Mayor") in Tenochtitlán has been found to contain artifacts from the Mezcalans, Olmecs, Teotihuacanos, Mixtecs, Huastecs, and other preceding and conquered peoples. We don't know yet whether the Aztecs were cognizant of Paleoindian sites with mastodon remains in the Basin of Mexico, but they may well have been. So, from an "Aztec" perspective, the term "Toltecs" really mean any preceding culture within a broad area of Mesoamerica. This is how *they* used it, but it is NOT the current way the term is used by archaeologists, who have learned about pre-Aztec and non-Aztec cultures by using both Aztec legends and scientific investigation.
In the early part of the 20th century, the term "Toltec" was used to refer to Early Postclassic influence from central Mexico in the Maya region. It was also applied to the culture identified as responsible for the ruins of Tula, in the state of Hidalgo. It is now mostly applied by archaeologists to the latter, with Tula being the standard for identifying what is considerd "Toltec". For a good sense of this, I'd refer you to the work of Nigel Davies:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/0806113944
www.amazon.com/gp/product/080611505X
And also that of Richard Diehl:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500390185
Of course, there's lots more academic scholarship than this. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 3:27 PMAs for what a spiritual seeker wants to write, a channeller or spiritualist can write whatever they want about ancient Egypt, but that doesn't make it Egyptology.
There's a difference between art and history, as any "historical" Hollywood movie will reveal.
Think of Edward G. Robinson as one of pharaoh's viziers and Charton Heston as Moses and you'll have an idea of what I mean. Inspiration doesn't mean historical truth, and the "Toltecs" are being romanticized today just as heavily as Antony and Cleopatra were (think Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor) a generation ago.
Don't forget that "the mystique of the Maya", just like the concept of "scientifically proven", Is a phrase that was invented by marketing gurus, not archaeologists. These are words that are used to sell things to you.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 4:29 PMi feel that you have marginalized Jenkins and myself by seeming to lump us in with the kind of person who reads 'Toltecs for Dummies'
why not give us a full critique of JMJ's chapter "Chichen Itza Cosmology: Maya-Toltec Reconciliation" rather than the shadow boxing routine?
I don't agree with Jenkins entirely either, but just tossing him aside as an autodidact ... on a message board like this your really think we're not going to make fun of your framing job?
framing or farming
it's all art and it's all magic
of course you are fascinated by magic
all the studies on sorcery and shamanism
trying to explain away all the mystery in academic knowing frown
don't tell me you don't see it when white sunlight reflects clear blue waves over shadows of stone
when corn comes ripe on the stalk?
well it's all about timing anyway
can you truly enter the dance
if you interrupt the trance?
if you keep bashing on the Chilam Balam texts, The New Testament, and all other sort of holy cultural artifacts don't be suprised if people react like you're a philistine
why try to separate your poet side from your profes sside? if you've come to this tribe it must be because you wish to harmonize both into one Whole being
no?
i will speak to you as both and neither. can you hear the sound of your own emptyness? in your studies, did you ever realize that I AM intoned backwards is MAYA?
some historical fabrication, eh?
is there something more about history to which that this Maya enigma may be alluding? like it's all a fabrication?
the "I AM" ego separation a space-time illusion?
or is this too much "air of mystical vibrational reality"
???
all i suggest is this:
don't grumble in cloister
play in garden!
days colors and tones
ooohhh... i feel the mystic vibrations already! -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 4:48 PMbackwards prolly ain't a consideration when you hear "maya" repeated over and over delivers the same intonation. -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 5:18 PMyea, it's all zuvuyafied aint it!
Hoopes, i was gonna pm you this but decided to just post it here:
i replyed to some of this in the post on the board
i think it's more interesting to keep the pms public for the most part
my attitude really has nothing to do with your layover in Philly (i understand that's kinda an improbable hookup for both of us), it has everything to do with how you dismissed Jenkins as an autodidact without taking a breath to acknowledge his elucidation of a possible 2012 message from post classic times or myself for bringing it to your attention
then you start talking about 'Toltex for Idiotz' as tho this has some relation to Jenkins' realization of the Eclipse on May 20, 2012.
it really does make me think of university professors, worried that someone smarter than them in the class is going to distract from the thrust of the lecture, so instead of acknowledging a point, or asking for input from others, they launch some stemwinding critique about the asininity of some term or something to bolster their own always right ego without having to acknowledge something outside of their paradime might be worth discussing
look i'll concede "When the Toltec people moved to Chichen Itza" is a bit fairytale-ish, but there is significant blending of Toltec and Maya styles and motifs in post-classic Chichen Itza
and you're quoting Geoff Stray here, not Jenkins
although i wouldn't be suprised if Jenkins wrote something similar, it doesn't devalue his whole presentation anymore than your 3113 discrepancy devalues yours
it's like it all goes down
how people let themselves be labeled
babeled
"I'm a Scientist"
"I'm an American"
"I'm a Christian"
good for you, but do you have a language of compassion through which you can interact with those who label themselves otherwise?
or is it just terms and definintions and redefinitions and squabbling over definitions ad infinitum
me, i'd rather read the scripture
remember the poetry
and drunk with the wine of unity
LAUGH myself silly -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 6:01 PMi guess the real annoyance of it is this:
i say "weather or not Toltec is the right word (we've discussed the amibuity of such terms), you gotta admit it's cool!" and then, far from admitting anything is cool (embittered much by your years in the university? heheh hoopes i can't help ribbing you... you're this old in the system professor guy i'm a young idealistic drop-out stylin myself earth revolutionary and all y'know? don't take it as disrespect, just misrespect. or to quote the Beatles "But if i seem to act unkind / It's only me it's not my mind / That is confusing things...") you go off on a tirade about how inaccurately people use 'Toltec'. This in response to my post that specifically said "weather or not Toltec is the right word (we've discussed the amibuity of such terms)..."
no, the eclipse is really not cool afterall?
pyramids and stars and ancient day-counts just another potential for misinformation? -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 6:29 PMif you haven't already Hoopes, i recommend you dig up Barbara Tedlock's article "Sound Texture and Metaphor in Quiche Maya Ritual Language"
she describes what almost amounts to a metaphorical grammar based not on historical development of words, but on sound resonance between words in which archetypal qualities and their associated sounds are present in any context in which that sound is created
so if to a mayan poet any related sound between two words creates the relationship regardless of historical etymology
what do you think people attracted by mayan artifacts will be similarly into? syncretism, deeply archetypal poetry and images? now-centered moments of synchronicity and transcendence?
dreams?
after you've read the article by Barbara Tedlock, see if you can get into Jose's 'Arcturus Probe'
maybe make the logical concession to analogy
hey i'm dreamin again! -
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 9:02 PMWell, we've discussed the term "Maya" a bit, which is a historical fabrication.
"Toltec" is also a complex term. >>
Aren't all terms that categorize "complex" and "historical fabrications?" Intellectuals and scholars, especially those that work in the Aristotelian mode, pretend that definitions have exact meanings. You will never reach the real meaning of things by reducing them to these definitions, which are ultimately arbitrary.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, August 4, 2006 - 12:17 AMAll terms and concepts are historical fabrications. Period.
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I AM MAYA
Thu, August 3, 2006 - 10:02 PMfrog,
dig that spelling of 'paradime',
as in: a paradime a dozen.
intentionally or accidentally -- that's good.
my question is:
if you are on to sumthin with your relation between sound, quiche & synchronicity
(and i prefer to believe that u are), why quibble over dates?
let's just learn quiche, and let the dreams tell us the date.
not someone else's dreams,
our dreams.
I AM MAYA: now there's a mantra for ya-- -
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Re: I AM MAYA
Fri, August 4, 2006 - 5:14 PMlittlefish,
the e-mail address i signed up for tribe with is paradime_a_doxen@yahoo.com
try it and see if i reply hehe
but no understand why you ask 'why quibble over dates'?
what dates do i quibble?
like i said before, i really don't actually think it really makes any difference if you put down 3113 or 3114, or even if it's 2011, 2012, or 2013
i'm not sure about quiche exactly
what with 30ish distinct dialects to approach
not to mention
hebrew
sanskrit
arabic
and all the other mayan tounges out there
like english
what i hear is a sound in any language is the same
one earth one people one dream -
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Re: I AM MAYA
Sun, August 6, 2006 - 9:07 AM"one earth one people one dream"
Think of a forest with just one kind of tree.
Think of a garden with just one kind of flower.
Think of a game park with just one kind of animal.
Think of a grocery store that sells only one kind of food.
Why in the world would you want to live on a planet with only one kind of people? -
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Re: I AM MAYA
Sun, August 6, 2006 - 9:09 AM"You can be in my dream if I can be in yours." --- Bob Dylan
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Re: I AM MAYA
Sun, August 6, 2006 - 9:22 AMThink of what Burning Man (or Halloween, for that matter) would be like if everyone wore the same costume.
Think of what this thread would be like if everyone had the same beliefs and opinions.
IMHO "one earth one people one dream" would be a nightmare.
I'm curious to know why you *don't* think that way. -
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Re: I AM MAYA
Sun, August 6, 2006 - 12:30 PMis there more than one earth?
is there more than one human race?
is there more than one dream of coexistence?
i speak of harmony
why hear only monotony? -
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Re: I AM MAYA
Sun, August 6, 2006 - 12:48 PMnice quote!
Dylan sums it up
once we get past the nightmare of isolation ("I've been havin' the same old dream, but mine was a little different y'see, I dreampt the only person left after the war was me. I didn't see you around.") we come back to earth and share in the collective dream that unites us
"...It was Rock-a-Day Johnny singing
'Tell Your Ma, Tell Your Pa
Our Love's a-Gonna Grow
Ooh-Aah Ooh-Aah'..."
;D
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Re: I AM MAYA
Sun, August 6, 2006 - 12:52 PMI don't think oneness is synonymous with sameness Hoopes.
We can all be one and all be completely unique. We are one of spirit, meaning that our roots are interconnected in the source of creation's ever deep ocean.
One for all, and all for one. -
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Re: I AM MAYA
Sun, August 6, 2006 - 1:03 PMagreed...unity & diversity are not mutually exclusive doctor.
another false dichotomy striving to be stranded. -
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Re: I AM MAYA
Sun, August 6, 2006 - 5:45 PMGlad to hear it. That's my dream, too. I don't believe anybody or any faith has a monopoly on truth.
I can live in a world with Hasids, Mormons, Raelians, Sufis, Jains, Zoroastrians, Sunnis, Shiites, Baptists, Roman Catholics, Reform Jews, Hindus, Ramtha devotees, Tibetan Buddhists, evangelical Presbyterians, atheists, polytheists, monotheists, polyamorists, bigamists, etc., etc.
I wouldn't want it any other way.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, August 4, 2006 - 12:43 AMSo you're annoyed that I didn't write about what you wanted me to write about but what I wanted to write about?
I've given Jenkins kudos elsewhere in this tribe. It was you who had a kneejerk reaction to my reference to him as an autodidact.
You, Bernhard, and others seem to have a lot of fun psychoanalyzing me as a cartoonish stereotype. Don't you think that's a pointless distraction itself? I think it reflects badly on all those who engage in it.
Okay, so I had a bad reaction to the initial premise implied by, "When the Toltec people moved to Chichén Itza..." and didn't get beyond that.
To the matter at hand:
"The moving snake on the Pyramid is an annual reminder of a conjunction of the zenith sun with the Pleiades over Chichen Itza, but this is an event which will only occur during a 72-year time window, from 1976 to 2048. Right at the centre of this time window is the year 2012, when the Great Cycle ends. On May 20 2012, the zenith passage combines with a solar eclipse, on the Tzolkin day 10 Chichan, which means serpent. The winter solstice end-point will be 4 Ahau in the Tzolkin calendar, meaning Lord/Sun, and 3 Kankin in the Haab calendar, which means ‘snake-day’."
I'm not especially impressed with the remark about "right at the centre" of a 72-year window for a "conjunction of the zenith sun with the Pleiades over Chichén Itzá", an invisible event, or how this is a "reminder" about the "moving snake". Does the sun-Pleiades conjunction, which would not be visible to any observer (since the constellations are invisible when the sun is in conjunction with them), occur at zenith on every day during this period? How can that be so? From what I understand, the "moving snake" phenomenon occurs on the equinox, not 60 days later, so how are the two related? This passage claims that there will be a solar eclipse on May 20, 2012. However, the Goddard Space Flight Center says it will be on November 13, 2012.
sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclips...3T.html
The umbral path will be across the South Pacific, meaning it won't be visible anywhere near Chichén Itzá. What's the source of the May 20 error?
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, August 1, 2006 - 9:44 PMAn orthopedist might have some suggestions about how to deal with that jerky knee. (I don't know if a shaman could help with that or not.)
Or maybe you were just high when you wrote this. In that case. all is forgiven.
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, August 1, 2006 - 10:29 PM"this mystique of the maya that we're into really is amazing"
I think "dumbfounding" is a better word. Given the massive amount of scholarship that's been done on ancient Mesoamerica, it's truly incredible to me that so few non-academic autodidacts who claim to have an interest in this area have actually bothered to study any of it.
John Major Jenkins is an exception, but even he has trouble keeping up with the details.
If you're truly interested in understanding "The mystique of the ancient Maya", that's the exact title of a chapter by archaeologist.David Webster in the recent book "Archaeological Fantasies: How Pseudoarchaeology Misrepresents the Past and Misleads the Public", edited by Garrett G. Fagan:
www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415305934
He writes:
"A fundamental dimension of pseudoarchaeology is the tension between professional and public (or 'popular') conceptions of the past. The history of the Maya mystique shows that this dichotomy is not so simple. In the Maya case, professional archaeologists were (and to a degree still are) active participants, wittingly or not, in the origin and perpetuation of a set of very exotic and appealing conceptions about the ancient people they studied. These conceptions spilled over into the popular imagination, where they remain widely believed and valued. We should, however, remember that the founders of systematic Maya archaeology were inventing their discipline not too long ago--about the time my grandparents were born. Many of them were not 'professionals' in the modern sense, however skilled and intrepid they were in fieldwork. As professional archaeology matured, there was an inevitable process of self-correction--more fieldwork, better analytical tools, and more sophisticated anthropological and comparative perspectives eventually brought down the old version of the Maya mystique.
"If Morley or his contemporaries could be magically whisked from the 1940s to the present, they would find their beloved Classic Maya almost unrecognizable. These people no longer represent some mysterious or exotic "Other" of the kind that anthropologists have sometimes been accused of creating from their subjects. On the contrary, the research of the last forty years has made the Maya much more comprehensible within the broader comparative perspective intuitively used by Stephens long ago.
"Unfortunately, it is almost always easier to develop new, good ideas than to make old, bad ideas go away..."
I doubt you'd insist that the world of F. Scott Fitzgerald or "Leave It to Beaver" describes contemporary American culture, so why cling to the "Toltec-Maya" models of the 1920s and 1950s? Just as scientific knowledge of human genetics, ecology, and astrophysics has advanced in leaps and bounds in the past few decades, so has our understanding of ancient Mesoamerica. Your fantasies about the Maya are about as valid as those of white bread conservatives who pine for Kate Smith singing "God Bless America". Get with the program, TF!
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Tue, August 1, 2006 - 8:20 PMDaniel Pinchbeck wrote a really cool thing for my blog last year on the topic of the Mayan apocalypse. In case you missed it, it is here:
nonprophet.typepad.com/nonpro..._d.html
hope you enjoy,
-NP
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Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Fri, August 4, 2006 - 1:15 AMYes, folks, the time has come for another extension of this thread:
2012.tribe.net/thread/1d9...df9e0457531
It may be inspiring to think of it as a Fifth Creation.
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Unsu...
Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (elongated)
Sat, August 5, 2006 - 10:11 PMQuetzalcoatl "feathered serpent" or "plumed serpent" is the Nahuatl name for the Feathered-Serpent deity of ancient Mesoamerica, one of the main gods, once a goddess form of northern Central American civilizations and also the name given to some Toltec rulers, the most famous being Topiltzin Ce Acatl Quetzalcoatl.
Preparing for my trip to begin work on the one temple in Guatamala brings many dreams at night to support my shamanic work. The Mayans were taken over by the new seeds of the Aztecs around the same time that the Nubian Queens were overthrown by the Kings of the Early Kingdoms of Egypt. There enccoded in the temple is a link in the energetic magnetic lines that banished the Flower Soldiers and Toltec wisdom, and the Northern Wadjet and Nehkbet wisdom of lower and upper dreaming Temples of Egypt in which the Nubian Queens had brought to upper Egypt. The manipulations of the magnetic grids of earth in both of these Pryamid structured, have been both linked to each other and in a perpetual state of bondage. How could Star Nation children of the light awaken when the natural overflowing consciousness of the magnetic fields Gaia was strapped and twisted into self contained extractions, as a resource for Alien Nations who, with no ability to reproduce needed a core source of energy [emotion] of Star Nation beings within. Now many of us have healed our light bodies enough to remember what each one of us was called to do and i am included in such works. I rarely read books unless called to assist my work and help my wisdom come from an external source. I have found imagery and dreams coming from within more direct, but this has taken years of working with self and healers. All Spiral knowledge and wisdom is deep inside our own core. I am the same as you.
Quetzacoatl moves into the consciousness of many who know that the Gates of [2006] '6, '7, '8, '9, '10, '11 and '12 are not an ending but a begining, a walking without fear within. Each one of us must take a step alone and with the help of healers of many modalities helps us prepare for the changing energy to step into fear without residue or side effect. Are you feeling it? If not then get some energy work or any of the 100 or so sacred ancient healings can help not only your mental body and get deeper into your emotional body, physical body and etheric bodies which will have to be healed in order to remain peaceful in the rising energies from the earth. All of you know this. Thats why we come together to share.
Fear or Love. Thats your choice inside yourself up to 2012. Its a simple walk into the ancient future. In 2012, Pluto shall enter the very earthy sign of Capricorn, Uranus will enter Aries the Warrior and Neptune shall enter its own sign of Pisces. Be prepared, for the shift on an archetypal level is felt personally.
The Oldest relief of a Bird/Serpent is:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...litu.jpg
Blessings and may you cherish the Earth....
Mary - 13 Star Nation Shaman,
Primordial Grandmothers of the Bear Clan