It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

topic posted Mon, November 27, 2006 - 12:48 AM by  offlineWIZARD
I'm new here, so I apologize if this topic has been broached before. Perhaps you've heard of the controversy over the end date of the Mayan Calendar?

The recently departed Ian Lungold tells us that the end date is really October 28, 2011. This, he says, is based on the current beliefs of certain living Mayan elders.

The argument seems to hinge on a decision made by Mayan Palenquean priests about 600 C.E. According to this school of thought, these priests felt that a mistake of EXACTLY 420 days had been made by their forbearers (the Izapan priests) in setting the beginning of the Long Count on August 11, 3114 B.C.E. The speculation is that their acknowledgement of the "mistake" also failed to correct the Long Count, because the Long Count was by that time so firmly entrenched in their culture.

In addition, it was felt that the cycle MUST end on a designated "completion energy" date, called 13 Ahau (which means "Holy completion of time, truly"). October 28, 2011 happens to fit the bill for 13 Ahau.

The Head of the Council of Mayan Elders is Don Alejandro Oxlaj (who goes by the name of Wandering Wolf in his own language). He is also the Head of the Indigenous Council of the Americas. It is this elder who Lungold claims as his authority.

Anyone have an opinion on this issue?
posted by:
WIZARD
Seattle
  • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

    Mon, November 27, 2006 - 7:59 AM
    An opinion? Sure.

    Regardless of the claims of recent aficionados, especially Ian Lungold and Carl Johan Calleman, decipherment of the ancient hieroglyphic texts makes it very clear that the correct end date for the Great Cycle is December 21, 2012. There is no controversy over this date among the experts who are able to read ancient Maya writing, except perhaps with regard to an error of one day due to slight differences in correlations.

    Any meaningful scholarly arguments concerning possible errors should be based on the content of the inscriptions themselves, not modern speculations based on spirituality and intuition. The belief that "the cycle MUST end on a designated 'completion energy' date" seems to be just that, a belief rather than a hypothesis for testing. In order for it to be tested, one must be able to imagine circumstances that would prove it wrong and evaluate these in light of actual evidence.

    At present, the evidence for the December 21, 2012 date is overwhelming. Without knowing the specific inscriptions and their translations that would support an alternative date, the case for October 28, 2011 remains extremely weak. Which of the inscriptions at Palenque indicates that someone there thought a mistake of 420 years had been made? Do any of the inscriptions there indicate that someone at Palenque knew about Izapa?

    Despite claims regarding the current beliefs and authority of Mayan elders, only epigraphers who can read the ancient inscriptions should be considered the authorities on the Long Count. The Long Count calendar remained unused and forgotten between the 10th century decline of the ancient Maya until its re-discovery by archaeologists and epigraphers in the late 19th century. Although the tradition of daykeeping and a form of "Short Count" continued, use of the current Long Count was unknown to any elders until it emerged from academic scholarship of the 20th century. The main venue for scholarship on the decipherment of Maya hieroglyphic writing and dates is the annual Maya Meetings at the University of Texas-Austin:

    www.utmaya.org

    You can read John Major Jenkins' critiques of Calleman and his comments on statements by Don Alejandro here:

    alignment2012.com/eldersand...hange.html

    Although Jenkins is not an academic scholar himself, he has been far more responsible in following and considering the opinions of profesionally Mayanists than either Lungold or Calleman.
    • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

      Mon, November 27, 2006 - 10:37 PM
      Not to mention the prohpesies of Pacal Voltan, Edgar Cayce, Nostradamos, David Wilcock, Terrence McKenna, That british chick from the 19th century, the Hopi's and countless others. These 2011 people are the same type of wet blankets that, as the year 2000 was approaching, the end of the melleinium, they said, "well actually the end of the mellinium isn't until 2001", SUCH BULLSHIT!! LET ALL THE AIR OUT OF THE 2000 CELEBRATION!! I blame that cockamaimy Seinfeld episode! At least this time, the "wet blanket date" comes first! :)
      • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

        Tue, November 28, 2006 - 7:02 AM
        Correct me if I am in error here...I am no expert at these matters... and I have never been to the Mayan ruins (yet).... but isn't the lay out of one of the temples positioned so exactly that the shadow of the sun travels down the staircase on the winter equinox on Dec. 21 2012. Representing the decent of the serpent, Quetzlcotl returning to power, while at that same equinox our solar system lines up with the black hole at the center of the galaxy. Sounds like irrefutable ju-ju to me................
        • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

          Tue, November 28, 2006 - 7:33 AM
          Okay. You're in error here.

          "isn't the lay out of one of the temples positioned so exactly that the shadow of the sun travels down the staircase on the winter equinox on Dec. 21 2012"

          Ummm, no. You're probably thinking of the Castillo at Chichén Itzá in the Yucatan, where the shadow play of the serpent happens twice every year. It ocurs on March 21 or 22 (the vernal equinox) and September 21 or 22 (the autumnal equinox), but the first has become the most popular gathering time because it is often cloudy or rainy in September. The December 21 date is the winter *solstice*, not an equinox.

          It's not the "shadow of the sun" (what would that be?) on the staircase, but a wavy shadow cast by the stepped structure of the corner of the pyramid on the balustrade of one of the staircases. The pyramid is called "Kukulcan," which translates as "quetzal snake" and is a Yucatec translation of "Quetzalcoatl," but there is nothing to indicate that the shadow has anything to do with this figure returning to power.

          www.piramideinn.com/equinox.htm

          Here's a slideshow of what happens:

          www.7is7.com/otto/travel...henitza.html

          As for the galactic alignment, it doesn't occur at a particular time or a particular date, but within a wide "zone" of occurrence. Think of "lining up" the sun (visible as a big disk) on a black hole (an invisible point that is so far away that it can't be seen even with the Hubble Telescope). There's plenty of wiggle room there to accomodate a period of many years for an "alignment" of objects that are constantly in motion.
          • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

            Tue, November 28, 2006 - 11:05 AM
            Thanks Hoopes for setting me straight, and in such a diplomatic manner too. Exemplary behavior and a veritable treasure house of information. Those errors will serve to remind me not to believe all that I read on the web. P.s. I do know that it takes an object to interupt the sunlight and cause a shadow. Thanks for injecting humor without twisting the knife. My wooops....................e
            • yes, thanks be AND...

              Tue, November 28, 2006 - 11:55 AM
              emptycloud - the essence of irrefutable juju remains...

              this is a 'magical' occurrence we're discussing!

              the details are pretty much each persons filters and choices

              Blessings to all of us
              • Re: yes, thanks be AND...

                Tue, November 28, 2006 - 12:23 PM
                Ah, yes. Those troublesome details do get in the way sometimes...

                On Dec. 21, 2012, the *real* magic won't be happening at Chichén Itzá or Palenque, but on those never-to-be discovered ancient pyramids made of pure crystal that are located at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean, under miles of ice in Antarctica, and in a deep crater on the dark side of the moon. Pick one and be there!
                • Re: yes, thanks be AND...

                  Tue, November 28, 2006 - 12:27 PM
                  funny... and here i thought *real* magic was happening every day in every way in every plAce.

                  hmmm... perhaps that's just for some of us. gosh i sure do feel sorry for the rest. good thing there's still plenty of time for sharing the Light.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

    Tue, November 28, 2006 - 2:14 PM
    I've looked at this issue and personally don't find it all that relevant because I'm more interested in the internal process of transformation that is going on rather than what date the Mayan calendar ends. I think getting too focused on this issue distracts from the real process because we're talking about a date in linear time and I tend to see this transformative process to be one that moving us away from too rigid a focus on linear time. So from that point of view I think transformation is happening now and will reach a critical mass whenever it does and I don't think we will miss out on it.
    However if one wants to accurately understand the Mayan calendar itself or understand the end of this period from a scholarly point of view then it certainly is a more meaningful question. From that viewpoint I tend to go with 2012 because in reading Calleman and especially in reading his debate with Jenkins his arguments and reasoning escape me. Calleman appears to be a bit misguided if you ask me but thats just my take............
    • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

      Tue, November 28, 2006 - 5:28 PM
      Is this where we start calculations from??? :0
      James Ussher


      October 23

      James Ussher and the Creation (4004 BCE)

      It was on this date, October 23, 4004 BCE, that the Earth was created by God. It is disheartening to report that many Christians will leave it at that.

      The exact dating of the age of the earth was arrived at by an Irish theologian, Archbishop of Armagh, James Ussher [or Usher] (1581-1656), in his Chronologies of the Old and New Testaments, which was first published 1650-1654. Ussher arrived at his conclusion by careful counting of the "begats" in the Bible, and perhaps some divine guidance. His contemporary, Sir John Lightfoot (1602-1675), Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University, who arrived at the same year through independent calculation, added the detail that the world began at 9:00 AM, GMT, or midnight Garden-of-Eden time.

      A dating scheme that may seem silly to the enlightened today was printed on Bibles until the late 19th century, when scientific evidence of a much older Earth made the naïve calculations of the two clerics laughable. What isn't so humorous is that in spite of advances in Earth sciences, almost 20 percent (19.1%) of Americans still believe that the world was created by God between 5000 and 10,000 years ago!
      • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

        Tue, November 28, 2006 - 11:21 PM
        Who cares?

        If it has to ALL happen on the exact Day, then we have no free will and it'll all happen regardless, when it's supposed to. Or we could all declare an end to the old ways of being on our own schedules.
        • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

          Wed, November 29, 2006 - 7:23 AM
          Hoping that something will happen on a particular day is not all that different from waiting for Jesus to return or an ET to come and solve our problems.

          “If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?” -- Rabbi Hillel

          If not now, indeed.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

            Wed, November 29, 2006 - 8:25 AM
            "Hoping that something will happen on a particular day is not all that different from waiting for Jesus to return or an ET to come and solve our problems."

            very true. Long live the fundamental Christians and New Agers waiting for their savior(s)!
          • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

            Wed, November 29, 2006 - 8:26 AM
            And if not now, when?” How about half past the cows ass...(garden of eden time of course).
            I trust that my posting the previous, pointed to the lunacy, without implying that we could take such calculations seriously. Counting the begats to the past is at least as accurate as counting the photon waves to the rapture. Any way the waves will become particles as soon as you look at them skeptically and throw the whole count off. So then we are back to square one, which is living in the moment with contentment and gratitude. It's like being in the car surrounded by a glorious sunset, heading for vacation paradise and all the kids can say is "are we there yet?" ..........in light and love...............e
  • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

    Wed, November 29, 2006 - 9:05 AM
    It does not matter weather the date is set on 28.10.2011 or 21.12.2012. The sun will be in the center of the milky way 21.12.12, it will be in alignment to the heart of the galaxy, something extraordinary must happen then anyhow. On the top of that, that date is being co-created by many many people in this matters to be the date.
    Lungold and Calleman might be right, that rhe original day was put on 28.10.11, it is still just mathemetical calculation studies that say that it is so, because the ancient mayans never knew Gregorian calendar to set on a certain gregorian date.
    Still it does not matter which it is, we argue in terms of the illusion of time anyway. The earth energy will shift some day, anyway. Will we be in alignment to the shift or not when it comes, will we be well established in the here and now?
    • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

      Wed, November 29, 2006 - 10:44 AM
      The Winter Solstice in 2012 is more than a mere date or day in the calendar.
      Doesn't really matters, what actually happens on that day, other than attending to a happy solstice celebration.
      The complete lack of metaphoric, symbolic, metaphysic vision generates theories like the arrival of ET's or even noticing the effects of the galactic center.
      An ancient being with metaphysical vision and understanding could see that it is not the literal event what matters. The current enormous descendence in the material world creates illusions like physical "shift change", evolution into the 5th dimension etc.

      Our way of communication has changed from symbolic-universal to literal-individual (just as an example: all the terms applied in metaphysics/spirituality are from latin, greek or sanskrit). Our national languages are simply missing the universal aspect of understanding the complex matter of phenomenons like the crop circles or consciousness change. How could you possibly verbalise a symbol/sign? Why would you do that when your mystical intuition (if you have one) comprehends it perfectly?

      According to the Vedic teachings the so-called Spiritual Center will completely fade away from our minds at this period of Kali-Yuga. What is a the Spiritual Center? The same thing, that we call God, Jesus, Allah, Buddha, Brahma, Tao or Galactic Center, Black Sun.
      The Spiritual Center is a central vision in the minds of all human beings.
      The Awareness of the Spiritual Center creates societies based on primordial principle laws that are present in all sacred texts.

      If you want to go deeper, here is the direction:

      Excerpts from Laszlo Andras's Solum Ipsum
      www.tradicio.org/english/solumipsum.htm


      When I reconstruct myself, I reconstruct the world.

      Kali-yuga is present in the consciousness, in the strict sense of the word, in the human psyche, in the spiritual manifestations and deeds of man, just as it is present in the surrounding world, in buildings, in music, in the different manifestations of artistic trends and in the very processes of nature. Wherever man directs his attention, be it inward or outward, he is everywhere surrounded and ruled by a world which is under the aegis of antitraditionality - that is being cut off from God, heaven, transcendence, superiority and the essence.

      The present time as a modern time, that is, an antitraditional time in the extreme, is the time of negative dominances. And it holds true even on the level of the most base profanities: for example, a young and healthy man feels bad much more often than good, he is much rather depressive, sad and gloomy than luminous, happy and joyous.

      Once it took centuries to emanate perceivable descent; today it happens in decades, and we are approaching the time when we can measure changes in years, in months, in weeks or even in days. The time could come, when a sensible man wakes up in the morning realising that during his nightly rest the world has descended in a significant manner. And in the evening, he will go to sleep knowing that he is falling asleep in a significantly more degraded world than that in which he has awaken
      • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

        Wed, November 29, 2006 - 11:19 PM
        Auton, a gem of a post.

        The people experiencing life as if cut off, as if separate,
        plays an equally important part in the ascension/descension.

        There is a microcosm of Vishnu's navel, running through as a creative void,
        roughly in the same place as our sushumna.

        Void/Clear light

        As I sense it, 21 Dec 2012 is characterisable as a certain emergent chorus
        out of the consonances and dissonances of our (seemingly individually separate) spin,
        our frequencies.

        This is also why it is very difficult to glimpse extrasensorily beyond 21 Dec 2012,
        since the queries are usually individually based.

        For those of a separative inclination, 21 Dec 2012 will possibly be characterized
        by (symbolically) three days of egolessness.

        Some of us will return to the embodied state, transformed.

        Some will, due to choices made during the experiences and insights during these three days,
        choose to go on in other realms.
        • Re: It's not 2012 -- It's 2011!

          Thu, November 30, 2006 - 3:23 PM
          I believe in the power and grace of the collective consciousness. I believe that scientists are studying this phenomenon and corporations are trying to use it......thus the scientists get more funding to study. I have spent a great deal of present moments enriching my mind with data that correlates consciousness and reality. In my studies I found a common attribute among various phenomenons. " Synchronicity " It can be found in every element on the planet. Every element has a signature frequency and that frequency is created by synchronicity among its atoms. Everything has a signature frequency even a state of mind. Magnetism arises from synchronicty and also electricity. The planet has a signature frequency. So relating this all to 2012 I believe that if more than most trust that 2012 is the date for a great transformation then it may very well be a date for a great transformation, regardless of what has happened in the past or what is supposed to happen in the future.