Tribe.net. Local Connections wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#83f5452a-75ac-45f1-ab81-117a83ae89c1 2008-06-15T20:48:36Z 2008-06-15T20:48:36Z

I'm not sure which article you are refering to , Elo, there are a lot of articles on this there. I do not think it stands a chance, and don't even think that pushing it hard is a very good idea. Two thirds means it would have to be supported by a lot of republicans, and i do not think that is very likely. We'd certainly need to impeach cheney at the same time (!) and that is unprecedented. I found the article on huffington post about the fact that dennis has done this, and the nature of it being helpful in a future war crimes trial to be an interesting perspective and more in line with what i've been thinking about it. Bush is an albatross hanging around the neck of the republican party and all who would back his idiotic policies. Leave it there to rot, i say. An impeachment trial would likely elicit sympathy for him as much as anything else. Like i said earlier, the republican's impreachment of clinton backfired on them to a large extent according to opinion polls. But these arguments are much too nuanced for this tribe or for most perhaps. But, to answer your questiion, it has no chance of passing or gathering much support at this point.

wil 2008-06-15T20:48:36Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#83a1dca0-3959-4b29-840a-29b1ce069c7d 2008-06-15T20:37:52Z 2008-06-15T20:37:52Z

<In his speech to the powerful lobby this morning, McCain criticized Obama for his openness to engaging in direct diplomacy with Iran; for his opposition to the Iraq troop surge; for his desire to end the war; and for being opposed to a 2007 amendment that classified Iran's Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization. Obama has said he opposed other language in that measure -- not the terrorist label -- which Denis McDonough, Obama’s senior foreign policy adviser, repeated today, adding that the senator had co-sponsored a bill to make that point clear.> Hey Brad dont you think all of them things Mccain lists above i just found in an article, are a really good reason to make sure Obama gets in rather than Mccain ? Or dont you think ending the war, and stoping increased hostilities with Iran is important ?

Elo 2008-06-15T20:37:52Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#a0ebd05e-f32e-4257-a01c-c739519e0bd2 2008-06-15T19:55:56Z 2008-06-15T19:55:56Z

Will are you sure this stands no chance of sticking, that article in the huffingtonpost makes out like it stands a fair chance ?

Elo 2008-06-15T19:55:56Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#51b75836-945d-4762-b3c7-085d5a002eba 2008-06-15T16:45:05Z 2008-06-15T16:45:05Z

I think you are still being lofty and theoretical, and trying to skip the messy step of realization of the ideals. I don't want you to be petty and small small minded. I'm looking for practical and practicable. You have no answer for how you would have us get out of iraq or end the unfair tilting of the economy to the rich or how to solve the other injustices and inequalities in society. Politics has been called the art of the practical, and i like that definition. You want freedom for the individual, but that freedom is constrained, and rightly so, by the equal rights of other individuals who make up the collective body of society; the body politic. You want to throw all that troublesome bullshit out the window. Of course you do. You and everybody else, but that is not going to happen. We are in this together. Norway didn't get their more equitable society by washing their hands of the messy business of politics, not at all. (Their oil boom helped a lot as well. ) I think the nexus of our discussion is a core difference in our paradigms; you think that all politics is preordained by a cabal of power elites and nothing happens without their knowledge and approval; i think this is not the case at all, and instead reality is being defined by our collective thoughts and efforts. What you see as elites i see as a mass projection from a confused humanity still programmed to think in patriarchal terms.......dog in drag. I'm all for utopian society, and have spent this incarnation working......ok, involved in ineffective bumbling, towards the goal of a utopian society where people simply help each other instead of trying to excite envy in each other or screw each other over for short term gain, long term karmic collective loss. I still very much believe in this. I'd love to eventually hook up with some idealistic and evolved young folks involved in building sustainable and supportive community. I think i have a lot to offer such an effort. Our primary work is on refining ourcellves; learning not to project our problems out onto reality, but to let reality flow into us unfiltered and to respond naturally. I do not see this as in any way antithetical to being involved in the political process and indeed, i see politics as a collective extension of this work. Anyway, we are allies, acknowledge it or not.

wil 2008-06-15T16:45:05Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#0e1a4764-c662-4c55-8576-fa887cd74ab6 2008-06-15T09:45:29Z 2008-06-15T09:45:29Z

<This game of politics is a bunch of crap to keep us all from thinking about the larger perspective of the tyranical world in which we are manipulated in. > yes but BRad the unfortunate reality is, like it or not, these are the people who run the world. They make the decisons that affect whether 1 million iraqis are going to die or not, or the finacial markets work against Africa, of whtere you can be put in prision and tortured without trial. It IS a bunch of crap at times, but like it or not, its a very important game of crap, and sometimes you need to get your hands dirty in life whether you like it or not. Its a postive trait you dont like the shit that goes on, but if you try to keep your hands clean, then your just allowing the people who love shit to run our world !

Elo 2008-06-15T09:45:29Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#92f334f3-cca0-4e5a-8861-1fad0e1df703 2008-06-15T09:33:01Z 2008-06-15T09:33:01Z

or with respect brad you could put it like - "your either with the people who try to keep Bush and all he stands for OUT, or with the people who either vote or LET him in" The war on terror thing you talk of is a good example, because one is based on a lie and the other truth. the war on terror is bollocks because the idea of a vast globaly organised al qiedia (I cant spell !) that threatens the world is a lie, so any idea that everyone should join the war on terror is bullshit at a very fundamental level. but the idea of the right wing in america being ultra violent (just killed 1 million iraqis by there actions) - and spending virtualy more on millitary than ALL THE OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD COMIBINED. negligent on the enviroment, and creaming off the wealty off your economy for themselves, and thats an economy often built on the backs of poorer economies in the world, is not a lie. Its very real. There also eroding civil liberties with things like the Patriot Act and torture in guantanmo bay and sliping slowly into dictorship with things like riging elections. This, unlike the war on terror, is very very real, and a call for everyone with any moral integrity to oppose this atttempt of brutal governance of the most influential country in the world is also very real, very important, and very urgent. Yes Obama isnt perfect, but this isnt really the point for me, blocking a war crazed, power mad, virtual nazi right wing in America is the whole and absoule point. How much did Chamberlines idea to "ignore" Hitler in the late 30's work ? In a way chamberlin was trying to opt out of international european poltics at the time in the same way you want to keep out of your own polotics now. W I dont want to exagaratte the connections between the nazi party and this current government too much, but they are most certainly using the same kind of tactics all be them less extreme (so far) and are certainly moving in the same directions. I dont even think you belive BRad Obama is doing that ? He has after all promised to repel the patriot act as a matter of urgency. You ignore these kind of people BRad at your peril. Where do you think the extreme right in America (and the neo cons have a lot of influence in the republican party now) where do you think the extreme right is taking America BRad ? What direction do you think you guys have been moving in ? Have a good look at the last 10 years, and have a good look at the effect its been having on the world. No BRad you ignore these people at you and the worlds peril. Isnt that obvious ? Why do you think im posting up so much about this when i dont even live in America ? Why do you think an elederly man who can barely walk who my knows is thinking of going to New York for the first time in his life just to "feel the atmosphere" if Obama beats the repulbicans and keeps them out ? Its becuase this is beyond the level of national polotics, what the republicans are doing in the last 8 years or so is poisoning the world, and if they get back in ALL of us suffer.

Elo 2008-06-15T09:33:01Z BRad http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#00bb7d72-f9e0-4a98-85c5-2df12114595c 2008-06-15T08:49:25Z 2008-06-15T08:49:25Z

..I dont think we should burn down churches, btw.

BRad 2008-06-15T08:49:25Z BRad http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#d4d41f8c-d01e-44ab-ac34-1e122c6aca7e 2008-06-15T01:21:15Z 2008-06-15T01:21:15Z

<<"“Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote.” >> Dont blame me, blame that innocent guy over there who wasnt even aware of the terrible injustices being commited... Kind of like: "Your with us, or you with the terrorist!" -G.W.Bush

BRad 2008-06-15T01:21:15Z BRad http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#76a7a7ce-32c9-42a4-a9ab-e827ef24815c 2008-06-15T01:18:44Z 2008-06-15T01:18:44Z

<<"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." >> Damn, that is interesting, i like it, although i fail to see how it substantiates your position. Rather i see it as substantiating mine. But in general, my problem with democracy is that the will of the majority, wil, shouldnt be any less important the the will of the minority. Why should the voices of the many overshadow and unsubstantiate any other voices? Thats not justice.

BRad 2008-06-15T01:18:44Z BRad http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#8590c5a2-9a95-4a23-8a02-4002bf570d52 2008-06-15T01:09:20Z 2008-06-15T01:09:20Z

<<Ok brad. Bring the troops home and change the tax structure to be more equitable to working people. >> Heheh, i just watched The Onion move, and their is a clip with a college stonner who gets together isreal and palenstein and creates peace through copious cannibus smoking, your suggestion is remenisant of that, wil! lol <<Your concerns are very lofty and theoretical, but do not deal with the situation at all.>> Perhaps you would prefer that i be simple and petty? I understand we started talking about bush and impeachment but really. This game of politics is a bunch of crap to keep us all from thinking about the larger perspective of the tyranical world in which we are manipulated in. <<We live in a complex world. All people are not sheep, there are plenty of wolves out there. If we had no police force what would likely happen? If we had no fire stations or rescue squads, would this be a good idea as well? >> Private property and an inequal distribution of wealth is a source of most of the crime we witness in our society. That and conflicts of idealogical interest. In norway, where wealth is more equally distributed, their crime is very minimum. They do have a big problem with people burning down churches, i guess they dont appreciate all that idealogy being forced down their throats. <<There is definitely a higher authority, and we need to be obedient to our higher light, but this is in general congruent with the rules set out by civil society. We have to deal with this situation, not simply wave the magic wand of wishful thinking>> You have your higher authority and i'll have mine. Like i mentioned in my post, your higher authority should be internal to yourself! Be it spirituality or just common decentcy. What we need is lofty thinking and an expose on the true reality of the dominate and outdated power structure we have been enduring under for the past couple millenia. Lets get serious and get the utopian society right this time. Freedom for the individual, not the masses.

BRad 2008-06-15T01:09:20Z M.Parisi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#8a16f8ff-481c-4f51-a295-d2fa2e8b4218 2008-06-14T19:45:56Z 2008-06-14T19:45:56Z

This is actually making some news. Go Dennis! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elizabeth-holtzman/an-analysis-of-kucinichs_b_106652.html

M.Parisi 2008-06-14T19:45:56Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#b04c8dc6-b30e-471b-8e74-7f4d8f055bab 2008-06-14T16:50:57Z 2008-06-14T16:50:57Z

Wil, you are a Die Hard ! High Respects

Ozai 2008-06-14T16:50:57Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#6d9ddc29-078e-489f-9a3c-296efbc47fe3 2008-06-14T11:48:30Z 2008-06-14T11:48:30Z

I don't know who controls the leaders, certainly this is different with different leaders and circumstances. Hitler was out of control entirely, like a wild beast; destructive force of nature, perhaps, like a hurricane who fed on hatred like a hurricane feeds on heat, and simply rode it till it spent it's force, destroying itself as it destroyed so much else. Bush is controlled by his immature ego and his inablilty to either think rationally or admit mistakes. Good leaders ( gandhi, lincoln, fdr, jfk ) know how to admit mistakes and how to control themcellves. ( although jfk had the common problem of controlling his johnson, and i ain't talking about lyndon)

wil 2008-06-14T11:48:30Z roger http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#623775ce-b103-4841-9de0-ca6cbfafb355 2008-06-14T10:58:39Z 2008-06-14T10:58:39Z

pp:*Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.* wil, who do you think controls the leaders? brilliant post, no matter the source: nazi

roger 2008-06-14T10:58:39Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#b22b8ff4-ad7f-4962-8f30-0ebd5c8afed5 2008-06-14T10:50:28Z 2008-06-14T10:50:28Z

Gandhi is one of my heros. " though i suppose he is on your shitlist as a popular charismatic leader with a cult of personality) anyway, i like him and respect him very highly. He was a big believer and promoter of democracy, and his work made india the largest democracy in the world. He said: "Democracy, disciplined and enlightened, is the finest thing in the world." Einstein is one of my heros. He was a big believer in democracy. I think his words here speak clearly to the problem at hand: "My political ideal is democracy. Let every man be respected as an individual and no man idolised. It is an irony of fate that I myself have been the recipient of excessive admiration and reverence from my fellow-beings, through no fault, and no merit, of my own. The cause of this may well be the desire, unattainable for many, to understand the few ideas to which I have with my feeble powers attained through ceaseless struggle. I am quite aware that for any organisation to reach its goals, one man must do the thinking and directing and generally bear the responsibility. But the led must not be coerced, they must be able to choose their leader. " Hermann Goering did a lot of very bad things, and is certainly not one of my heros. He said this which i find interesting though: "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." Molly Ivans was a great human being! She said: "The thing about democracy, beloveds, is that it is not neat, orderly, or quiet. It requires a certain relish for confusion." Will Rogers was a another great human being! he said " I do not belong to an organized political party. I am a democrat." Walt Whitman was a hell of a poet and a suffered keenly from being way ahead of his time. He said: "The purpose of democracy -- supplanting old belief in the necessary absoluteness of establish'd dynastic rulership, temporal, ecclesiastical, and scholastic, as furnishing the only security against chaos, crime, and ignorance -- is, through many transmigrations, and amid endless ridicules, arguments, and ostensible failures, to illustrate, at all hazards, this doctrine or theory that man, properly train'd in sanest, highest freedom, may and must become a law, and series of laws, unto himself, surrounding and providing for, not only his own personal control, but all his relations to other individuals, and to the State; and that, while other theories, as in the past histories of nations, have proved wise enough, and indispensable perhaps for their conditions, this, as matters now stand in our civilized world, is the only scheme worth working from, as warranting results like those of Nature's laws, reliable, when once establish'd, to carry on themselves." Winston Churchill ( was he another personality cult brad?) anyway, he famously said: "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." William Simon, who i've never even heard of, evidently said: "“Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote.” "

wil 2008-06-14T10:50:28Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#c6d2227a-0196-42e4-8d91-8e1aa8637a27 2008-06-14T09:33:52Z 2008-06-14T09:33:52Z

Ok brad. Bring the troops home and change the tax structure to be more equitable to working people. Your concerns are very lofty and theoretical, but do not deal with the situation at all. We live in a complex world. All people are not sheep, there are plenty of wolves out there. If we had no police force what would likely happen? If we had no fire stations or rescue squads, would this be a good idea as well? There is definitely a higher authority, and we need to be obedient to our higher light, but this is in general congruent with the rules set out by civil society. We have to deal with this situation, not simply wave the magic wand of wishful thinking.

wil 2008-06-14T09:33:52Z BRad http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#cbaa6f69-23db-42f7-b4ac-4cc33ff843e5 2008-06-14T01:40:38Z 2008-06-14T01:40:38Z

<<Why couldn't you vote in a fascist country? The Nazi Party was elected in a most democratic way in 1933!">> Bingo! Hitler was a saviour figure, a cult of personality! They loved him and he was saying the things that people wanted to hear in a time when germany was in the perverbial dumps. The germans where desperate for change. <<"We are a wondering sheep, a sinking mass, heading toward annihilation because there is no order, no hierarchies and no leaders remained in this world.">> I believe that we (meaning the majority of the populace) are wandering sheep. But i dont think that we need a leader, well at least not one that is external to ourselfs. We should all become concious of our actions and our relations with other people. Maybe we should have some basic tennants of civility in which we should utilize in our interactions with the world in which we live. Why do we need to have someone making important decsions in our name? What are these big important decisions? Are these decisions necessary with the type of world civilization in which we live? Why do we have nations? Why borders? Why us vs them, a standing military and a police state? We have people whos job it is to make laws and only laws, why do we need so many damn laws? How can a policman or a judge have reign over our freedom? Granted i dont believe that what we need is a world absolved of authority but all government needs to be substantiated and i really doubt that the type, level and sofistication of this current power system is necessary.

BRad 2008-06-14T01:40:38Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#ce3bc649-7e45-4596-89fe-ed232dc3e9fa 2008-06-14T01:35:01Z 2008-06-14T01:35:01Z

and the cosmic clock is ticking towards our times of conciousnes expansion, just beyond the releam of jupiter (transit around 2010) i tell you kucinich and then david davies here was a click on the exact venus midpoint (in the 8 year cycle) next year pluto opoosite venus (america) 2012 we open the gates - 26,000 year galaxtic alignment, pluto opposite sun (america) pluto square uranus (world) mayan porthole and hopi (cosmos) Cloudless everyday you fall upon my waking eyes inciting and inviting me to rise And through the window in the wall Come streaming in on sunlight wings A million bright ambassadors of morning And no-one sings me lullabies And no-one makes me close my eyes And so I throw the windows wide And call to you across the sky http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tlZp0KXSMF0&feature=related we have the doorway to open our eyes, and time is our key, a new birth of what mankind is, and life on earth.

Elo 2008-06-14T01:35:01Z M.Parisi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#902b870b-09cc-4e13-8a07-26c00a7b2f07 2008-06-14T01:04:37Z 2008-06-14T01:04:37Z

<<I'm really curious, M.Parisi, what is democracy for you? How would you explain the American democracy to me if I knew nothing about it? I would tell you that democracy is the foundation to an individuals right to freedom, and it's in big trouble, and it needs a lot of help. We are losing our freedoms and democracy as it was indented to be has been thwarted by a greedy few. But, it's far from dead, and there are millions of people who are more awake and aware today than ever before. These individuals are the true power of democracy and my faith lies with them. They have the means to change the direction of the whole planet, but only if the hawks and their cronies are voted out. I would say that we are on the verge of a major tipping point created by tensions of our own making, and that these days, every second counts, every dollar counts and every vote counts. I would say, that in the past two elections the smallest number of votes conceivable has put greedy, fear mongering people in a position of power to murder millions of people and get filthy rich at our expense. That COULD have been avoided, had the objectors stepped up, even with the tampering. Honestly, I'm not a super-intelligent person, certainly not smart enough to "get" everything that needs to be understood right now. I fall back to the people I respect for guidance and I see, generally speaking, a unanimous mind when it comes to democracy and the importance of voting. Reposted from another thread: Ian MacKaye I would vote for the person, this is my rule of thumb, vote for the person that I thought was least likely to cause a war. My rationale was this: whoever is the president of this country, the people here deserve it. In terms of the effect of war on other countries, they don’t deserve it; they didn’t vote for the president. So all I’m trying to do, I figure that war has the strongest international effect, like the most visceral at least. So my idea was like, vote for the person least likely to go to war. Ani DIfranco Well, the escalation of wrongness is terrifying. It's deflating and it's maddening and enraging. Things are getting to a world crisis at the hands of, you know, imperialist America. We're all feeling it, so of course that's coming out. And it doesn't come out in small packages, I guess. And part of it is that I'm growing up. I've always looked at my writing as political, you know, because I look at everything that way. So even when I'm writing about a love affair or something very private as part of my experience as a young woman in the world, I think of it as very political stuff. I'm aware of it as being so. But now that I'm, whatever, 32 or something, it's like it's my problem. My government, my country and the current political international crises are my problems because I'm an adult American. I find that, unwittingly sometimes, I feel more connected to the superstructures of society. We're born into these systems, but we're very much outside them when we're young. It's like it's not our society. We have no power. We're only learning, really, how it works and what our role in it is. I'm writing about big-P politics for the first time, just because it's more a part of my life now. Suddenly I'm a voting adult and it's my job to fix it. Saul Williams I’m used to sharing my opinion, but sometimes when it comes to politics, especially in regards to voting, I’m hesitant. This is primarily because my goal has always been to inspire people to think for themselves rather than simply inspire them to think like me. Yet, at the same time I realize the power of example and do my best to be my best whether the spotlight shines or not. I would not plant my faith in any government if I believed that history was entitled to govern the future. What has been was and went. At present, I am slave no more, and my freedom to speak my mind and share it with you is, in itself, an inspiration and a testimony of the beauty of our times. Yet in these times when the creative labor disputes in the film industry, the transformation and disbandment of the music industry, the collapse of our misappropriated economy (while oil profiteers celebrate the biggest year of profit in US corporate history), the ongoing war, the expansion of environmental consciousness, the resurgence of racial hate crimes, and the penalties exacted upon sportsmen who practice brutality off the field, all convene under the heading of NOW, it is essential to draw connections between each spinning record, to note times’ signature, and acknowledge that our world could transform in a drum beat. We are in desperate need of a remix. As a musician and fan of many I have always noted the power of music and art, especially amongst the youth. Before complacency and jadedness take shape, we are alive with dreams and insight into what could become of the world if the old would simply die young and allow new harmony to exist beyond antiquated conceptions of race, nationality, and tradition. We are subject to the world we are born into, without choice nor reverence. The dogma instilled by our social study books and well-meaning parents do little to affirm the truths that we know possible. The future is truly in our hands, yet most feel empty handed and ill-equipped to be the change they wish to see, while others have already been taught to clasp their empty hands in prayer, nod their heads, and surrender their power to the unknown, the angry, the jealous. I do not trust the government, I have no faith in politics. Poetry is president. We are the root of change. Yet, I have even less faith in cynicism. When negative expectations rule our perspective we shift below the radar and become the resin stuck to the tires of the passing tank, whose driver is tired and feels unthanked. He fights for nothing more than rank. We are the root of blame. Cynicism is ammunition pressed against the temple of the imagination daring it to not be. It is an excuse of the unimaginative, a tool of the tool, a weapon of the dreamless and sleep-deprived, it is far, so far, from music. What we need is a song, a melody to inspire the wind to change direction, a hybrid of genre and innovation, something worth the dance. The tar spangled banner that waves low, beneath the surface, is the dancefloor of a generation finding voice to sing. And though every generation has found ways to marry rhythm, none has sampled breakbeat science to distort how freedom rings. History is not King. And the present has offered some promising leaders…For the record, I’m voting for Barack Obama tomorrow. (note: The msg here is not Obama, the msg is to vote) Joan Baez (this is def pro-Obama!) If anyone can navigate the contaminated waters of Washington, lift up the poor, and appeal to the rich to share their wealth, it is Barack Obama. If anyone can bring light to the darkened corners of this nation and restore our positive influence in world affairs, it is Barack Obama. If anyone can begin the process of healing and bring unity to a country that has been divided for too long, it is Barack Obama. It is time to begin a new journey. Larry Harvey You know, everywhere I go in this country I hear people call San Francisco a world-class city. But you and I know that it's not a big city. It's really a town that is made up of neighborhoods. And, if it has any claim to being a great city, it is because of its grassroots culture. Our city has been the incubator of great social movements, and that is not because of money or the high-rises downtown. It is because we're part of a community that's very like another city that I know of in the Black Rock Desert. People come here as they come to it, to be themselves and live with other people who are also free to be themselves. We are here because we want to live authentically. And if all of you, and all of the people that you know, will just participate in this election, we can re-achieve a kind of greatness that will send that message out across the nation and around the world. Serj Tankian "Well, voting is not the be all, end all way of changing things either. I think that voting is great. I think that there can be a lot of change made with voting because when you actually get out there and make your presence heard based on your choices that obviously changes a lot of things. But I think that there are a lot of things that can be done with activism and street level organizing as well. If you want to change the world around you, start with yourself, and your friends and your local community. Don't expect some president a year from now or two years from now to change the heading of the universe for you. That's pretty lazy, as you put it."

M.Parisi 2008-06-14T01:04:37Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#a49e686f-c722-40d3-9fba-99a68035da7a 2008-06-14T00:58:42Z 2008-06-14T00:58:42Z

what happend this last week with both kucinich and david david speak up for freedom at the midpoint in this 8 year cycle of venus, i am sure, at that significant point in the build up to 2012 was part of the venus 8 year transit, that marks just one of the build ups to 2012. venus was one of the most important planets of all to the mayans, as well as a planet of love and money, it is a virtual twin to our garden planet of earth. Pluto also apraches the opposition to America's venus, breaking open change. in the end we will have big break throughs 2012 when the venus cycle reachs a highly significant gateway point in time, a vortex of change. A river of lifes rising in conciousness. marvel at the comsim synching, - http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iSVw6-rDW3s&feature=related god across the great waters indeed. and as if that wasnt enough, we can implode into time itself. you can here the clouds breaking here http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rLjXgRo2WGs&feature=related Overhead the albatross hangs motionless upon the air And deep beneath the rolling waves In labyrinths of coral caves The echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand And everything is green and submarine. And no-one called us to the land And no-one knows the wheres or whys But something stirs and something tries And starts to climb towards the light Strangers passing in the street By chance two separate glances meet And I am you and what I see is me And do I take you by the hand And lead you through the land And help me understand the best I can And no-one calls us to move on And no-one forces down our eyes And no-one speaks and no-one tries And no-one flies around the sun Cloudless everyday you fall upon my waking eyes inciting and inviting me to rise And through the window in the wall Come streaming in on sunlight wings A million bright ambassadors of morning And no-one sings me lullabies And no-one makes me close my eyes And so I throw the windows wide And call to you across the sky

Elo 2008-06-14T00:58:42Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#5b45fbc3-ed7d-42c6-8251-b5bef00e312d 2008-06-14T00:56:35Z 2008-06-14T00:56:35Z

> The whole Universe is based on hierarchies. Hierarchy means conscious, organized order. This was a concept that i rejected for years, yet i have found trough personal experience that indeed is like that. Im always impress with the stuff you write, you must have burned your TV very long ago : )

Ozai 2008-06-14T00:56:35Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#3f831eb7-fa2b-4a34-b9ff-04661342d359 2008-06-14T00:49:12Z 2008-06-14T00:49:12Z

Dharmacracy! All of our thoughts and actions are votive/voting. I certainly think you are wrong about all votes being voting for established corporate fascism, Auton. There is that element, to be sure, but it is not the only element, and by voting you are resisting that element. By not voting you are allowing it to hold sway. We need to work on what has been spoiled now, in the words of the book of change.

wil 2008-06-14T00:49:12Z Auton http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#50490c33-cb25-4d53-9d8a-9de91af809c6 2008-06-14T00:29:44Z 2008-06-14T00:29:44Z

>>I think in this case, that voting takes very little energy and is the proper course to get the job done. << What I'm trying to get through that with voting in 2008, you're not going to support democracy. You are going to support an established corporate fascism. Why couldn't you vote in a fascist country? The Nazi Party was elected in a most democratic way in 1933! They got more than 17 million votes! People's minds are twisted to the extreme that by voting they will fight for democracy in a dictatorial country. It's almost same like the argument that GM crops are the solution for the world starvation- you just need to chuck it down your throat and not think about the consequences. "I am no believer in hierarchy and leaders." I'm a strong believer in hierarchy and leaders.The whole Universe is based on hierarchies. Hierarchy means conscious, organized order. Cosmic harmony between the elements. We need leaders, but where are they? When was the last time you really seen a true leader? A leader who is honest, who has high principles, who is esteemed by the people, who is able to make firm decisions and keep up his word? We are a wondering sheep, a sinking mass, heading toward annihilation because there is no order, no hierarchies and no leaders remained in this world. But you what, you're right. We should give a chance for Barack Obama. And if he is going to be the next president of the US, we will come back to this thread in 2012 and make some reflections.

Auton 2008-06-14T00:29:44Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#d00384e4-7b4b-4f03-b7bf-7e4bdee0a4db 2008-06-14T00:24:00Z 2008-06-14T00:24:00Z

<Where? In the US? If there would be any struggle, we could see that in the last 8 years. Why is that when the election comes, people start to struggle and spout for democracy, while they did nothing for 4 years?> in the words of a famous Bob Barley, no stranger himself to government opperssion : "you can fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you cant fool all of the people all of the time." its took this long to fully wake up, and to be honest some things like the complte scale of the swindle over the war with iraq has taken time to fully come to light. and i too have respect for your voice aunton, i just think you've worked this issue out a bit askew thats all. Its time to act, a simple slot in the voting booth can make this millitary crazed, power and money mad neo con game fall down like a pack of cards. There is a chance of a landslide this autumn.

Elo 2008-06-14T00:24:00Z Auton http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#6095e9bf-1b3b-444e-b8f6-c4a9d53342fc 2008-06-13T23:55:24Z 2008-06-13T23:55:24Z

"Wu wei is an important tenet of Taoism that involves knowing when to act and when not to act." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei The above is the essence of the argument; when to act and when not to act. And this is what I'm trying to communicate. "There will always be a struggle for democracy, always." Where? In the US? If there would be any struggle, we could see that in the last 8 years. Why is that when the election comes, people start to struggle and spout for democracy, while they did nothing for 4 years? I'm really curious, M.Parisi, what is democracy for you? How would you explain the American democracy to me if I knew nothing about it?

Auton 2008-06-13T23:55:24Z M.Parisi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#7ae47465-801e-4f03-9c4f-538f9519850c 2008-06-13T23:14:19Z 2008-06-13T23:14:19Z

Just a quick note on wu wei: This is something I have been exposed to since the 3rd grade, and it does NOT mean inaction in the global sense. But rather, it's about manifesting effortless accomplishment by tapping into, and going with the natural flow of reality. This applies to a voter or non-voter the same way; it's totally dependent on individual intention. Convincing yourself that the process is 100% broken when there is absolutely no way to know that for sure is the product of being tricked. There will always be a struggle for democracy, always. When bright, conscientious and eco minded people give up on voting, then you have just voted, by default, for 4 more years of what you claim to detest. Talk about being manipulated!

M.Parisi 2008-06-13T23:14:19Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#ca735ac6-aee1-4397-bf8c-4cdc8e32919d 2008-06-13T22:45:06Z 2008-06-13T22:45:06Z

I think you are a fine person, auton, whatever your opinions on voting or whether you vote or not. The system is not totally broken, just badly bent by bush and company. Obama can win if he gets enough votes to overcome the system rigging, and he can make a real difference, and i think that he will. I do not think he is just saying what people want to hear. I think he has real convictions. Have you listened to or read Audacity of Hope? I don't reckon you have, but i think you should give the man a fair hearing. It is easy to download the torrent, and the book is read by obama, ( it was, of course, written by him and is his second book, the first one being a best seller as he is an excellent writer) anyway it is very good and i really think you should give him a chance. We wei is one of my favorite concepts. I don't think it means doing by not doing anything, although of course sometimes that is the proper course. That's what i think we wei means: proper course. When one takes the proper course, the universe is supportive. Wu wei means using exactly the right amount of power to get the job done. I think in this case, that voting takes very little energy and is the proper course to get the job done. I am no believer in hierarchy and leaders. I do not follow worth a damn mycellf , and also refuse to lead. I see the political stage as a stage for a the morality play that humanity needs at this stage. It is good to play our part. We needed the education that bush has given us (evidently) and we need now to learn the lesson that their awful tenure has so painfully taught us and throw the bums out. Give obama an honest chance. I consider him an ally, the same as i consider kucinich. There are millions of people who want to change this nation and the world to be more just and less pollutive and less violent and i consider all of these people my allies. Together we are mighty. Together we can throw bush and company out, and change our systems to be more.....intelligent and less unfair to people and the environment. Things are bad. It's better to work together to make it better. That is the proper course.

wil 2008-06-13T22:45:06Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#0e00a69b-69a9-4676-b180-78eea70d23a7 2008-06-13T22:06:36Z 2008-06-13T22:06:36Z

"if you are faced with a choice to DO something in a WRONG way or to do NOTHING at all, what action will you take? " in the case of healh care, i think providing care for the most poor for free as obama plans, does he not, is a good thing not a wrong thing, so if you dont vote your giving a chance of the wrong thing, ie no health care for the less well off happen. Living in a country were everyone gets free health care, thats alone seems worth voting for, worth even fighting for, but just a vote would do. and the repeel of the patriot act, dont you see that as someting important ? But agreeing for a moment with the postive thing of Kucinich impeachment articles, funny that in the UK virtual simultaneously we have had another significant lone Polotician of principle from the main Opposition party Oppose a big law that relates to liberty in one way or another. David Davis was a senior minister in the Opposition party. He's resiging in that there wasnt stronger oppostion to a new law which gives powers to detain terror suspects 42 days. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7450627.stm In America its freedome of your constitution in a way at the moment as your president is obviously breaking law on things, here its about the law being changed to give less freedom, but an enomrous simularity in what is going on in our countries ! I had take the eye of home play while watching what was going on with you guys. Quite striking this simularity, ill bet its due to some major astrological occurance, maybe lasts weekends exact midpoint of the 8 year venus eclipse which ends 2012, venus of course being important to the mayans. Its a very postive sign these high profile highly visbale acts of conciousness.

Elo 2008-06-13T22:06:36Z Auton http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#479fde24-6a52-427b-9a9f-0f7395585e3f 2008-06-13T21:00:24Z 2008-06-13T21:00:24Z

Wil, it's not gonna make a difference for me if you go and vote- for Obama, McCain or anyone else. I will still maintain that you're great person, with good values and sound assessment of the world. There's a lot of talk on this forum about being "3D"-meaning, unable to let go what's old, dysfunctional or as you pointed out, dualistic etc. I see voting exactly like that. It is a difficult conditioning that generations were brainwashed-your vote makes a difference. And you know what? It does! In a system that is properly set up, with honesty, according to the rules of the game. It probably made sense a few decades ago to go out and vote and I believe, it made a difference. But 8 years ago, the system was busted: insider corporations set up their Nintendo electronic voting systems, the fraud was open and wide. That was the point when the American voter should get out on the streets and demand new elections, counted with paper ballots etc. That was the test. When the Bush administration figured this out, that the social apathy is so bad as it was, they knew they can do anything. They can use the US army to invade foreign lands, to start an illegal war, to pursue their agenda despite the protests of millions around the world. If a nation will not stand up when their basic rights are ignored, they lost the war. The US is not a democracy anymore. It is a corporate fascistic dictature. Corporations, who fund the politicians can do anything they want. I think that Obama is making things worse; he is a superstar, he is charismatic, a supported populist, who will say what you want to hear. He makes people believe that the system is fine, it is OKAY, you should go out and play the game, as nothing has happened in the last 8 years. You are familiar with the concept of wu wei, the traditional Chinese philosophy of life. I think this is time of wu wei. This is time when one should answer the question: if you are faced with a choice to DO something in a WRONG way or to do NOTHING at all, what action will you take?

Auton 2008-06-13T21:00:24Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#a03c357d-feb6-482a-bb29-d582223b7ceb 2008-06-13T20:52:59Z 2008-06-13T20:52:59Z

This is an interesting story. Exelon is a huge company in obama's home state, and home city. It has had undisclosed nuclear leaks that people were upset about and obama wrote tough new regulations about this into legislation that he tried very had to pass early in his senate career, , stubbornly holding up other business trying to get the bill a full hearing. Unfortunately, he eventually had to remove most of the tougher regs to get it through the senate. Obama is a political realist like this, like it or not, and will settle for whatever good can be accomplished, waiting till conditions change so that more progress can be made. The money comes from employees and executives who are not necessarily opposed to the tougher regs as their families live there too. the money does not come from lobbyists of the corporation who don't give a shit about anything but money because that's what corporations do. Obama is against yucca mtn repository, which exelon is very much in favor of.

wil 2008-06-13T20:52:59Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#b1f94ca3-e8a1-486b-b0d5-eca83c98c018 2008-06-13T20:22:23Z 2008-06-13T20:22:23Z

look who is backing obama with their cash. Exelon Corp $229,861 Electric and Natural Gas Distribution and largest US Nuclear Operator

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-13T20:22:23Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#5df37094-a057-46f2-8451-6639d8087c11 2008-06-13T20:04:04Z 2008-06-13T20:04:04Z

nice to see you happy Ozai. Im feeling a bit that way because im picking up for all the discord and problems there is definatly big change coming now, and eventualy is gonna be chnage for the better. <> Regardless, who will you vote, you will vote for a pro-corporate, pro-Israeli, pro-war candidate. >> Aunton i understand your frustration and that you would like much more dramatic change, I would too, but dont you think its a very important issue HOW MUCH pro-corporate, HOW MUCH pro- Isaeli, and HOW MUCHpro- war ? Obama and Mccain are not identical on all three of them issues, and the degree for example of just how much pro - corporate they are differs, the rupblicans for example are meeting out much bigger tax breaks. These differences are important. Also in my books how much they are focusing on enviromental factors, third world poverty, and other key global issues such as over fishing, global water shortaged etc, pollutinon of soils and ocean, are very important to me.

Elo 2008-06-13T20:04:04Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#85d23162-ee4a-4d7c-b384-4b70006e801d 2008-06-13T19:56:39Z 2008-06-13T19:56:39Z

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-GFqhCq2HA

Ozai 2008-06-13T19:56:39Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#e465f633-1345-4962-a556-7630e3fae9d8 2008-06-13T19:53:08Z 2008-06-13T19:53:08Z

I think this is what K. made reference to: "Fannie Mae's former CEO, Jim Johnson, resigned Wednesday as the leader of likely Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama's search for a running mate after The Wall Street Journal reported that he and another former CEO, Franklin Raines, received low-rate home loans from Countrywide, a large originator of higher-risk subprimes mortgages and a major seller of home loans to Fannie Mae." Those people at Fannie Mae, ....... let me not go there

Ozai 2008-06-13T19:53:08Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#29e2b8c0-492d-416a-99b2-78d9f2609846 2008-06-13T19:34:35Z 2008-06-13T19:34:35Z

Wil, im not gay (im sure neither are you : ), but I love you : ) LOL Is amazing how good i feel in the midst of all this amazing shit that happens in this word everyday Mary Jane, she is so good to me !! Im Blessed, I have to admit !

Ozai 2008-06-13T19:34:35Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#5bdf8e7d-88fc-4247-ae31-6fee1171e07c 2008-06-13T19:28:38Z 2008-06-13T19:28:38Z

LOL, i was goint to post that here, but i let it go, but since you mentioned (not to my surprise i have to admit) i will post some info i read not long ago: "Senate Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd reportedly received two mortgages under a special Countrywide Financial Corp. program that gave preferential interest rates to "friends" of the company's chairman. A spokesman for Dodd, D-Conn., said Friday that the senator did not seek any special treatment. "The Dodds received a competitive rate on their loans," spokesman Bryan DeAngelis said in a statement. "They did not seek or anticipate any special treatment and they were not aware of any." The news of the loans comes as Dodd, who ran an unsuccessful campaign for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, is playing a high-profile role seeking to ease the nation's housing foreclosure crisis." http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hz9TqDTc2yyFDmE7Oe5CJu9-0EywD919849G3

Ozai 2008-06-13T19:28:38Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#192c6dc6-df4e-413f-b0ef-57521bc93bab 2008-06-13T19:26:21Z 2008-06-13T19:26:21Z

I was sorta joking with the "WAKE UP" , as that phrase gets said here a lot. Ozai, there have been a number of people here advising others not to vote. Not you. Actually, i'm just trying to get across to ya'll that this actually does make an actual difference to actual people.

wil 2008-06-13T19:26:21Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#ba89ca5a-c900-4995-a6d6-1ca1dca9d879 2008-06-13T19:21:16Z 2008-06-13T19:21:16Z

Wil, i have never seen anyone here tell anyone not to vote. If your are telling A to wake up, then in my book, and with all due respects, is you the one that is asleep, but thats just me, the oddball, thinking that way , btw im might be stoned but im sure im very awake. PEOPLE GO VOTE, IF YOU CARE TO DO SO !

Ozai 2008-06-13T19:21:16Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#3dd3c218-d729-47d5-a327-60b213fb2fb4 2008-06-13T19:17:41Z 2008-06-13T19:17:41Z

didnt obamas campaign dude step down due to millions of dollars being funneled to him from countrywide morgtage company? it was in the news today.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-13T19:17:41Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#b2b1efc6-6842-4537-81ca-f38b77d4aed1 2008-06-13T19:03:54Z 2008-06-13T19:03:54Z

I find the inability of unwillingness to make distinctions here very troubling. You can say obama is pro-corporate, pro-israeli, pro-war and this be perfectly true according to your insistence on ideological purity according to your own highly dualistic imaginary scale. The actual real world question is pro-corporate compared to who. Here there is no question that mccain is pro-corporate. Before bush, rich folk and big companies paid a lot of the tax load, for obvious freaking reasons, but bush gave them HUGE tax breaks. Obama has said he will try to return a fair share of the tax burden to the super wealthy. Mccain has said he would not. This is just one of the many many many policy differences that will make REAL differences to people who are REALLY struggling to feed their families and also people struggling to develop alternative energy systems and also people who are working for sane and green development and across the board this makes a real difference. WAKE UP! Check this: http://blogs.reuters.com/trail08/2008/05/28/bushs-laws-will-be-scrutinized-if-i-become-president-obama-says/

wil 2008-06-13T19:03:54Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#11b75208-769f-4eca-a9ce-d6727cf02382 2008-06-13T18:44:26Z 2008-06-13T18:44:26Z

> Regardless, who will you vote, you will vote for a pro-corporate, pro-Israeli, pro-war candidate. well said, gracias.

Ozai 2008-06-13T18:44:26Z BRad http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#7f7cf62c-f3d2-4bb4-99a8-e578f0beec5a 2008-06-13T17:25:45Z 2008-06-13T17:25:45Z

""The US electoral system is set up to fail. It is set up so it could be manipulated, twisted in any direction. And I'm not intellectually apathetic! Regardless, who will you vote, you will vote for a pro-corporate, pro-Israeli, pro-war candidate. "" True that.

BRad 2008-06-13T17:25:45Z M.Parisi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#6b9b493b-40b5-449a-a102-7f3aea98506c 2008-06-13T15:13:10Z 2008-06-13T15:13:10Z

Here is the video, if anyone is interested: http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/337.html

M.Parisi 2008-06-13T15:13:10Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#2fa66a1b-06a4-499b-b657-f47bc5afbf15 2008-06-13T14:30:24Z 2008-06-13T14:30:24Z

> Convince people to find their own answers and do what is in their heart. always done that, afaik to be honest, it does not matter that much too me who wins, since to me the systems is corrupted. Even if Obama wins by 1 vote, this country is still going to feel the seeds of their collective actions (voting for war criminals for president) with the excuse of self defense. Do as you like, but im not planning in spending a few hundred $'s in gas just to go vote. In the end, it will be in nov, when i will know if i will be voting or not. We are not there yet.

Ozai 2008-06-13T14:30:24Z M.Parisi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#8aba4776-8e39-4bf2-9ab3-9b16e3f17fed 2008-06-13T04:25:29Z 2008-06-13T04:25:29Z

Remote harassment? That might deserve it's own thread...first I've heard, but I'm curious about it. As for non-voting, I think this is a good time to not empower a certain percentage of the population who will justify the inconvenience of voting via false association with the very complex stance of being a catalyst through non-action. This election might be won by the smallest of margins, just look at recent history. And has their ever been (relatively speaking) a more important election, being it ends in 2012? Who will be the biggest influence of the 2012 elections? Probably the incumbent. If you convinced other people to not vote, do you think that will be helpful? Convince people to find their own answers and do what is in their heart. ...and I'm not really speaking to you, but to the spirit of non-action. Unrelated but I thought this was cool....the kids are alright: http://criticaldemocracy.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/daniel-burd-plastic-microbes/

M.Parisi 2008-06-13T04:25:29Z Auton http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#fd22cc88-f1b6-48c7-a271-bfc033e385e1 2008-06-13T02:45:05Z 2008-06-13T02:40:42Z

>>Do you have an idea for a better way to run government than by democracy? I'd like to hear it. Please be specific.<< I can be specific. First of all, who needs a government? Conscious, well educated people can govern themselves. We could live without a centralized government for a thousands of generations. I'm not promoting anarchism, but there is life beyond democracy and the government. Any traditional method is probably better; monarchy (true monarchy, not manipulated monarchy), early form of feudalism, meritocracy etc. The time is near when this dysfunctional system will be flushed down the toilet like a bloody diarrhea! I'm saying NOT TO VOTE, because the system is flawed. It is manipulated, it is fake, it isn't reflecting the will of the people. Also, "the people" have no idea about who they vote. Big majority is voting based on superficial impressions, bits picked up from the media, pressure from family, friends or the establishment. After the Canadian elections a political analyst said that if Brad Pitt would run for presidency, he would certainly win! The shallowness and the level of confusion of the average voter in political matters is terrible.The US electoral system is set up to fail. It is set up so it could be manipulated, twisted in any direction. And I'm not intellectually apathetic! Regardless, who will you vote, you will vote for a pro-corporate, pro-Israeli, pro-war candidate.

Auton 2008-06-13T02:40:42Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#16ef530f-2c21-484d-b38c-ddbc93f7403e 2008-06-13T02:05:16Z 2008-06-13T02:05:16Z

> But i can't think of a good reason for folks to try and talk others out of voting. Nether can i, but i do what i know is best for me, i can not vote against my personal wellbeing or the ones in my family. For me to be able to vote, i would need travel far from where i am now. In fact, if i was going to be legal about it, i simply could not vote, bc i dont have a legal residence at this moment. I happen to be living in my truck. I dont even have an address where people can send me mail. Why ? The way the system works pushes people like me out, plenty of examples out there. Is either dance to their tune, of survive in the streets. I rather be in the street, than submit to the empire. I cant serve two Kings at the same time, and i know (even do i cant not prove it to anyone) there is a higher King. However, I think is a great thing to vote for local officials where we live.

Ozai 2008-06-13T02:05:16Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#f767efb0-ff33-4110-bd22-b71fe9a47b32 2008-06-13T00:10:17Z 2008-06-13T00:10:17Z

and the point is Will if the republicans get in again it may even get worse. They may take away more rights with further things like the patriot act, make futher moves to try and rig elections, remove even more regulations of the finacial markets to allow the elite to cream off even more wealty. I dont think even Brad and Ozari would suspect Obama will do them things. And thats EXTREMELY important.

Elo 2008-06-13T00:10:17Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#0bd617de-f089-4373-85ad-f81e2eb401b2 2008-06-12T23:54:30Z 2008-06-12T23:54:30Z

The mistake in your thinking is thinking that not voting is resistance, that somehow it registers a protest. There is no agency for that to register with. The entrenched power structure breathes a tiny sigh of relief perhaps, but that's it. You are voting for the status quo if you don't vote. I know some people have good reason not to vote. But i can't think of a good reason for folks to try and talk others out of voting. It is a small bit of power, but added together, we can effect change that way. One neuron not firing is no big deal. But if that neuron convinces others not to fire and so on. Brain death is sure to follow. I think of voting as neurons firing in a collective mind. Do you have an idea for a better way to run government than by democracy? I'd like to hear it. Please be specific.

wil 2008-06-12T23:54:30Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#67cc542d-ae67-480c-a16e-331a817c1a1b 2008-06-12T23:40:40Z 2008-06-12T23:40:40Z

> It's because of intellectually lazy , apathetic people! resistance is a legit way of making change, we all have our works some just go out to vote ever 4 years some are out in the streets educating the people, even against the system police powers that always comes to try to repress our legal and civil rights , everytime they can.

Ozai 2008-06-12T23:40:40Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#082af1d4-1fce-4a55-aeb5-b610bc4ca53e 2008-06-12T23:28:49Z 2008-06-12T23:28:49Z

<Maybe listen to chomsky on this bbc program talk about anarchism: > actuly he explains his ideas better on anarchisim in this interview, is intersting, ill take time out to listen to it properly later, thanks...

Elo 2008-06-12T23:28:49Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#0a2c9a31-7d6e-4f58-acf7-1cf2b5c1248a 2008-06-12T23:16:39Z 2008-06-12T23:16:39Z

<I'm not apathetic at all,> Id never call you an apthetic PERSON BRad, you dont come across that way, i like you and I'm sure you do care about life. I just think we have to work with what we've got. Dont you think there are some differences between Mccain and Obama ? Isnt Obama going to repeal the patriot act, isnt just taht one thing worth voting for, worth fighting for ? God ive been follwing your polotics so much this last six months i have lost touch with whats going on over here right now, but thats because im involved in a project thats based in America. I see what is going on in your country as more imporant right now, and its certainly more important to my project. It may work, it may not work, but im trying anyway. If all goes well BRad you may know about it one day. I certainly dont think all problems are going to be sloved if Obama gets in, but it may get better. One way or another there are 3 huge consecutive transits of Americas chart coming up now that will last from now untill about 2015, i do kind of belive in astrology, and then theres also the 60's pluto square of unranus coming up around 2012 that is going to last quite a lot of years, so i think big change is coming with Obama in or not, quite turbulent change too, but I would be a LOT more comfortable if you guys head towards them changes with Obama driving than Mccain. Personaly i belive the Republican right is "losing the plot" as we say here, there going nuts, because America is about to loose its super power status to China and the rest of the world, they cant handel that. Thats whats driving them mad. Thats why the Neo Cons have pushed America to spend almost as much on military than ALL the other countries in the world combined. That makes me extremely uncomfortable. I do really like Chomsky. Actuly the Anarchy thing is just about the only area i start to differ with him on a bit, but regardless i think hes fantastic. I wish everyone on here would check out what chomsky has to say about Iran, just do a search on you tube for "chomsky iran" real mind opener. And yes there isnt as much difference on Iran by the Democrats as there should be, but again i think go with what youve got, honestly the repblicans are on the slippery slope to the kind of goverments you used to only see in South American dictatorships. At the very least, get Obama to get rid of the patriot act for you and you may then sleep better at night !

Elo 2008-06-12T23:16:39Z Truth Gathering http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#5113cd7d-73d4-48e5-b83b-a56c0e4c85ce 2008-06-12T22:33:33Z 2008-06-12T22:33:33Z

Kucinich is a great man. He's also the one who named 'Chemtrails' in a draft U.S. Bill. http://worldgathering.net/world/hr2977.html That's two great things. Pretty good going by anyone's standards. Oh .... a third thing, in the same Bill he named remote harassment of individuals, and I for one know that happens because somone has been sending me 24/7 a lot of nasty 'free energy' since 2000. Thanks for those three things, Dennis.

Truth Gathering 2008-06-12T22:33:33Z BRad http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#a9c053ea-3766-4489-996d-3d56e7d918ee 2008-06-12T21:49:25Z 2008-06-12T21:49:25Z

And how is wil getting involved in the political process, aside from voting in primaries and such? Are you involved in your countries political process, Elo? I'm not apathetic at all, i care. I think the apple is so far rotten it needs to be thrown out. I'm concerned that a great majority thinks that all they have to do is vote for their canidate in an election and things are going to get better. I'm paying attention to the power structure. The politics you see are a facade to give an illusion of a democratic system. So you see I'm not apathetic at all, Just trying to get the word out. Maybe listen to chomsky on this bbc program talk about anarchism: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1qTMGOQhBJ4

BRad 2008-06-12T21:49:25Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#995a25b3-4a3d-4527-a04c-fb709b6b46f6 2008-06-12T19:31:53Z 2008-06-12T19:31:53Z

BRad come on Will is right, look at what the right are upto with the media, finacial markets, de regulation, huge over spend on the military, there mesing everything up. IF you opt out of the whole thing, thats like a red light for them taking over, exactly what they want actuly - apathy, kind of part of there plan.

Elo 2008-06-12T19:31:53Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#ba9960f4-cce3-45b1-826e-3efd7b9dccce 2008-06-12T19:24:57Z 2008-06-12T19:24:57Z

Just another reason why we should get involved and take the process back. How in the world do you think we got into such a freaking mess. I'll tell you. It's because of intellectually lazy , apathetic people!

wil 2008-06-12T19:24:57Z BRad http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#f28cdb34-257f-48c2-a675-0b2bf125ee9c 2008-06-12T19:13:31Z 2008-06-12T19:13:31Z

"...running against the ire of AIPAC is more or less political suicide" Just another reason why we shouldnt believe in the political process.

BRad 2008-06-12T19:13:31Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#c60e6399-ab95-4085-b91a-1053a0ff5f80 2008-06-12T18:44:41Z 2008-06-12T18:44:41Z

Will is right, there is no point making a stunt if it cost the election the worst thing that could happe now for the whole world let alone America is that the Rupblicans get back in. It was great this impeachment was brought forward to draw attention to the shit Bush has done, but it would be a mistake for all the democrats to support it if they cant win. Something has to be done about the right wing in your country, there taking over your whole media sytem, fucking up the fiancial markets by removing regulation, America is a mess now, Obama will help that significantly i expect, god only knows how bad this will get if the republicans get back in - effective dictatorship ? certainly possible. Check this out on how busy the right wing have been increasing there control of the media - A "Liberal" Media? "The CIA owns everyone of any significance in the major media." --Former CIA Director William Colby In the past, the Right Wing penetrated the Media through such CIA programs as Operation Mockingbird, which had placed most of the US Media leaders on the CIA payroll. In the 70's, the Church and Pike Reports to Congress exposed this and other illegal domestic CIA operations. Then, in a Rolling Stone expose (10/20/77), Carl Bernstein reported that there had been over 400 US journalists on the CIA's books. He also named such high-level Mockingbird operatives as Katherine Graham (Washington Post), Henry Luce (Time), William Paley (CBS), the Sulzbergers (New York Times) and "publishing magnate" Richard Mellon Scaife. After this embarrassment, it was necessary for the Right to use its own private network to replace Mockingbird. As a result, there is now the Cato Institute, with Media Mogul Rupert Murdoch (Fox, NY Post, TV Guide) on the Board with ATT/TCI's Malone [10] . Another big contributor to Cato is Viacom, which recently acquired CBS. Consequently, CBS/Viacom is now headed by Sumner Redstone, who is yet another powerful right wing figure with a WWII intelligence background [11] and apparent ties to OSS/CIA figures [12] . Cato serves the purpose of infusing the Media with Right Wing Propaganda, along with such organizations as Accuracy in Media(AIM), the Independent Women's Forum, the Western Journalism Center and -- of course -- the Heritage Foundation (See Main Page for Details). The difference between the days of Operation Mockingbird and the present situation is that, instead of actually placing network executives, publishers, editors, reporters and pundits on the CIA payroll, their contemporary counterparts are now members of the Right Wing Think Tanks*. In addition to Cato's Murdoch, some high profile examples are MSNBC's Laura Ingraham (a notorious "Scaifette" from the Independent Women's Forum [13] ) and ABC's John Stossel [14] . CNN's Kate O'Beirne is a Heritage fellow (and previous VP) who is a regular columnist for the National Review. Also, old Bonesman/CIA hand William F. Buckley Jr. is the Editor of the arch-conservative Review. The National Review's President and Chairman is none other than Thomas Rhodes, who was recently a Heritage Board member. Other right wing journals financed by these sugar-daddies (and mommies) include the American Spectator, Human Events and Murdoch's Weekly Standard. *[If an investigation like Church's were conducted today, would it reveal a Mockingbird-type penetration of right wing operatives in other areas of the Media--not just the news departments? Did the Think Tanks replace Mockingbird completely, or are some Media personnel still on the Agency's payroll?]. Of course, Rupert Murdoch's Fox News is packed with Right Wing spokesmodels, including the Free Republic icon and Hate Radio DJ Sean Hannity, and Tony Snow, previously a Bush speechwriter and journalist from Reverend Moon's "Washington Times" [15]. The lone "token" liberal, Alan Colmes, has to share a show with the overbearing and bombastic Hannity -- some "fair and balanced" programming! It goes without saying that Rush Limbaugh is in deep with the Right Wing, especially through the Heritage Foundation and the "Town Hall" program. Furthermore, Rush's show is broadcast by ABC, which was acquired in the eighties by Capital Cities--a suspected CIA front. Check out this history of Cap. Cities. ...the CIA has bought many domestic media companies. A prime example is Capital Cities, created in 1954 by CIA businessman William Casey (who would later become Reagan�s CIA director). Another founder was Lowell Thomas, a close friend and business contact with CIA Director Allen Dulles. Another founder was CIA businessman Thomas Dewey. By 1985, Capital Cities had grown so powerful that it was able to buy an entire TV network: ABC.[16] The above information is drawn from Dennis W. Mazzocco's "Networks of Power: Corporate TV's Threat to Democracy" [Boston: South End Press, 1994], as is this excerpt: Moreover, the type of elite control which occurs with economic concentration in the media industry can directly affect the news itself. For example, William Casey, Director of the CIA, was a major stockholder in Capital Cities which originally took over ABC. As a result of his influence and that of other officials, certain stories that were sensitive to the CIA were not covered and the way other news stories were covered was sometimes affected. In addition, with TCI[now ATT] controlling the cable TV systems in many markets, it has the ability to limit the type of information that is available in many people's homes. It has been suggested that TCI[ATT] is now contemplating offering three conservative-leaning channels in some markets, and eliminating the only liberal-leaning one it carries. [The author cites "Networks of Power", pp. 96-98] [17] . Even though ABC/Capital Cities was acquired by Disney in the nineties, it's a safe bet that the CIA has not been cut out of the picture. In fact--bizarre as it sounds--the CIA was actually lending a helping hand to Disney at the time that the ABC/Cap Cities deal was going down, as Jim Hightower reported in 1995. The CIA's former station-chief in Paris, plus four of his undercover officers, were summarily expelled from France. Seems they were caught trying to bribe French trade officials...the CIA is now reduced to "commercial espionage" against our allies --on behalf of American corporations...They were trying to get the French to let more Walt Disney movies into their country. This is Jim Hightower saying . . . If Congress is serious about cutting the budget, how about starting with the $13 billion the CIA is frittering-away on spy games for Walt Disney?[18] . (This may seem almost laughable, but keep in mind that Uncle Walt has been gone a long time. Disney is now just another huge entertainment conglomerate run by Michael Eisner--a CEO as shrewd as they come.) No doubt, articles like these did not keep Hightower from being axed by ABC radio later that year [19] . In fact, while ABC/Disney has been aggressively pushing right wingers like Rush and Dr. Laura, they have been firing many of their counterparts from the left. Just this March, both Stephanie Miller in LA [20] and Mike Malloy in Chicago [21] were cancelled by ABC radio. Meanwhile, the Right Wing has also been attacking progressive voices from the Independent Media Sector. The highest profile example is the Bay Area's Pacifica Radio (KPFA), which was targeted early on by professional scapegoater David Horowitz [22] . Horowitz heads the Center for the Study of Popular Culture, which plays a key role in the New Right's campaign to dominate the Media. As yet another arm of the Heritage network, CSPC has received millions of dollars from the Bradley, Olin and Scaife Foundations. With the New Right leaders exerting such a pervasive influence over the Media, it is now absurd to call it "liberal". [23] . (Note: This is such a huge topic, that it will likely be expanded onto its own web-page, so please check back for updates. In the meantime, please go here for more articles on the Media).

Elo 2008-06-12T18:44:41Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#de7fe6d8-4c9a-4ca5-b701-2855fa6ccc1e 2008-06-12T18:22:11Z 2008-06-12T18:22:11Z

Why in the world would you blame democrats instead of republicans or, better yet, AIPAC itself and the misguided jews who support it unquestioningly? If all democrats voted for the impeachment articles, it still would not come close to passing. It takes two thirds. You want them to pay a huge price ( and let me tell you, running against the ire of AIPAC is more or less political suicide) anyway, you are insisting that they pay such a price for absolutely nothing but a symbol.

wil 2008-06-12T18:22:11Z Auton http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#40cc016e-d195-41fb-a6bb-d580c61298b3 2008-06-12T18:14:25Z 2008-06-12T18:14:25Z

What a horrible scam the US politics is! American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee "Founded in 1953 by Isaiah L. "Si" Kenen, AIPAC's original name was the American Zionist Committee for Public Affairs." "President George W. Bush, addressing AIPAC members in Washington on May 18, 2004, stated: "AIPAC is doing important work.... In Washington and beyond, AIPAC is calling attention to the great security challenges of our time. You're educating Congress and the American people on the growing dangers of proliferation. You've spoken out on the threat posed by Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons. You've always understood and warned against the evil ambition of terrorism and their networks. In a dangerous new century, your work is more vital than ever.... These ties have made us natural allies, and these ties will never be broken."[24] Vice President Dick Cheney addressed AIPAC members in Washington on March 12, 2007, stating: "We find unity and strength in the values of liberty and equality and our belief in democracy and the rule of law and in our devotion to the security of America's friend, the state of Israel. As members of AIPAC, you play a vital role in making the strategic and moral case for America's friendship with Israel. I commend AIPAC for the fine work you do ... I stand here today as a strong supporter of Israel and Israel has never had a better friend in the White House than George Bush."[25] AIPAC has attracted many political leaders to address their conferences. Among them are Presidents George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, Vice President Dick Cheney, Senators John McCain, Barack Obama, Evan Bayh, Susan Collins, Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Former Senator John Edwards, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, House Minority Leader John Boehner, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, House Republican Whip Roy Blunt, former speakers of the House Dennis Hastert and Newt Gingrich. It has also included former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, current Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Several other Congressmen and politicians, such as Chuck Schumer, have attended conferences hosted by AIPAC." The Democraps are rotten from inside out.

Auton 2008-06-12T18:14:25Z Auton http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#bbf934ce-de23-4e25-862d-a414b6a99cfa 2008-06-12T18:03:23Z 2008-06-12T18:03:23Z

89% http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10562904/

Auton 2008-06-12T18:03:23Z Auton http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#84a537ac-0e46-4c74-8f55-0d2492e3723e 2008-06-12T17:55:49Z 2008-06-12T17:55:49Z

There’s An Ugly Reason Democrats Won’t Support Articles Of Impeachment - AIPAC http://justanothercoverup.com/?p=496 The Democrats Are Betraying The People Again! http://justanothercoverup.com/?p=495

Auton 2008-06-12T17:55:49Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#31b43ab5-7b43-48a6-b1e3-5409b42b6bb0 2008-06-12T16:38:54Z 2008-06-12T16:38:54Z

> Clinton's husband was impeached Pathetic the Morality of this country. Impeach a president for a blow job and leave a war criminal to keep the unity of the county.

Ozai 2008-06-12T16:38:54Z Nansee http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#94d77c2b-93bf-4a5a-82ef-486b111bc18e 2008-06-12T09:33:42Z 2008-06-12T09:33:42Z

too weird - I read the same thing: Clinton's husband was impeached I'm like huh? I have a different reality! Love when that happens... :)

Nansee 2008-06-12T09:33:42Z roger http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#7eeaca20-d00c-4e83-8eea-e63dfaa3dc72 2008-06-11T22:31:56Z 2008-06-11T22:31:56Z

n: i would have been second cookie on this thread when i first read it i could not believe it nor would not; have no tv but even on internet it took a while i did not know that clinton was impeached but only by the house; the senate is bought and paid for: thanx to the federal reserve banks... but bush could always get out of it due to legal technicalities: they did not have the right name on the indictment...

roger 2008-06-11T22:31:56Z Nansee http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#6cdee8a8-9a66-4a5e-b55d-1244626d638d 2008-06-11T19:09:00Z 2008-06-11T19:09:00Z

there was NOTHING in my newspaper today about Kucinich reading articles on impeachment yesterday... they stonewalled Kucinich when he was running for president and they're still doing it... Yes Kucinich is amazing! a politician with integrity! you've heard about his bill to create a Department of Peace?

Nansee 2008-06-11T19:09:00Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#a25ce421-e923-4fc2-a3e9-26133a651333 2008-06-11T11:33:28Z 2008-06-11T11:33:28Z

Bush stole two elections, started a war under false pretenses, signed off on uspeakable torture practices, illegal surveilance techniques, illegal rendition, and the list goes on and on. Impeachment has been out of the question because of the balance of power in the u.s. congress. It is still out of the question. Bush will be remembered as the new god of hubris and egotistical stupidity. History will impeach him a thousand times over.

wil 2008-06-11T11:33:28Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#10c9d6df-83cb-4564-8c70-a7762387488d 2008-06-11T11:14:25Z 2008-06-11T11:14:25Z

i completly agree with that Auton. Hey guys check out this article, he talks about the fact that a significant part of the impeachment resolutions are about the fact that bush stole the election and shouldnt even be in power, and they say this should be a warning to Obama to try to make sure the same thing doesnt happen this november - http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2008/3143 Will wonder what you rekon the chances of that are ?

Elo 2008-06-11T11:14:25Z Auton http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#1bab648e-bfdb-44ba-aff5-6a077f8ead5f 2008-06-11T06:01:37Z 2008-06-11T06:01:37Z

I feel that this is a big shift. Probably the biggest shift in the American politics in the last 8 years. I feel that the purpose of Kucinich's action is to raise awareness about the possibilities- there are no Sacred Cows in the US anymore. Obama may win the elections, but this action will keep echoing through the American consciousness. I suggest to talk on every forum possible about this; bring it up in any occasion, when shopping, when working, when chilling, everywhere,all the time: Bush is a WAR CRIMINAL and should be impeached!

Auton 2008-06-11T06:01:37Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#72d643c2-b49a-49e6-85d7-9d5c3964fdbe 2008-06-10T22:21:01Z 2008-06-10T22:21:01Z

<Hell you got to admit that this bunch of cowboys sure had guts to pull of the fascist shit they did, all be it twisted guts> just to clarify there, i am obviously talking about Bush's adminstration !

Elo 2008-06-10T22:21:01Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#1d227f0c-2628-49f0-a1dc-a130227d8714 2008-06-10T22:19:11Z 2008-06-10T22:19:11Z

i think your right there Kristilana, there have to be BIG changes in the US now, and that is gonna take a lot of guts, mind this John Edwards Will talks about sounds like a pretty sharp shooter too. The most important thing is Obama puts through people who will have guts to act. Hell you got to admit that this bunch of cowboys sure had guts to pull of the fascist shit they did, all be it twisted guts, what we need now is good people with an equal amount of guts to push change. I do know why some of you are unsure of Obama. Toney Blair in the early days was a bit like him i have to warn you guys, but he gradualy changed (for the worse) each year he was in office, i dont know if Obama will go that way or turn out to be a Kennedy (really i think either is possible, though i incline to the more postive possiblity) , but one thing is sure, hes the best you got now, you got to go with him. Mccain for sure will give you a hell of a lot worse.

Elo 2008-06-10T22:19:11Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#92acd8b7-8880-4222-ae7c-e4925463d364 2008-06-10T21:10:05Z 2008-06-10T21:10:05Z

i am fully aware of kucinich's background, i am from the cleveland area....i still think his integrity and balls would get us farther than someone with more of a legal background. just my opinion...... i think that we need some major restructuring, and that would take someone who stands behind his word...not someone who just tells you what you want to hear.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T21:10:05Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#39d1efcc-1f46-4db2-9013-722136ee1891 2008-06-10T21:03:21Z 2008-06-10T21:03:21Z

I don't think kucinich is a lawyer or has much legal background which is needed as Atty general. Jim webb would be a very good sec of defense, if obama doesn't pick him for vp which is quite possible. He was sec of the navy during the reagan administration, but is a democrat now, and has been HIGHLY critical of the way bush and team have carried on in afghanistan and iraq and with it's lack of services to veterans. He would be absolutely perfect for sec of defense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Webb I think joe biden would make a very good sec of state. He is chairman of the senate foreign relations committee, and some say it is the job he was actually angeling for with his presidential bid. http://www.observer.com/2007/candidate-secretary-state Obama has said that he would make a cabinet position to handle global warming with al gore as it's head. ( that ought to get some negative response here) http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080402.wobamagore0402/BNStory/International/

wil 2008-06-10T21:03:21Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#7d97e344-a932-4429-8b10-d88d025da9d5 2008-06-10T20:45:45Z 2008-06-10T20:45:45Z

John Edwards as Atty general is a thought that scares the shit out of big business. We need to do trust busting just like teddy roosevelt did, and edwards perfect for the job. He made a career as a trial lawyer, suing the pants off negligent industries.

wil 2008-06-10T20:45:45Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#2e1e1741-9665-4e73-a07f-b5f78d4225a5 2008-06-10T20:26:57Z 2008-06-10T20:26:57Z

yeah of course, thats it attorney general - god how cool would that be, first task, put Bush and all responsible away for war crimes !

Elo 2008-06-10T20:26:57Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#c8c4a8b6-db04-4d2c-9c1f-ca655fdb30ec 2008-06-10T20:25:29Z 2008-06-10T20:25:29Z

good point Robin, I agree , lol, : )

Elo 2008-06-10T20:25:29Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#d4e750b8-c2b3-401c-a76b-7b3a24ed2e0c 2008-06-10T20:22:32Z 2008-06-10T20:22:32Z

:)

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T20:22:32Z Robin http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#71d9905a-a5ff-43b6-8bfc-d2228b429cbc 2008-06-10T20:15:34Z 2008-06-10T20:15:34Z

I love Kucinich, you love Kucinich....we all love Kucinich! At least it seems we all agree on that point on this tribe. Not often we get a consensus here:)

Robin 2008-06-10T20:15:34Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#f6fca28f-dcc2-4817-b9fc-3bbccfb1fa7c 2008-06-10T20:09:53Z 2008-06-10T20:09:53Z

i think his heart and integrity would be enough experience for appointment of attorney general. this would be sweet indeed!

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T20:09:53Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#666af8ca-555d-44e2-8f3d-2e0037bca162 2008-06-10T20:08:17Z 2008-06-10T20:08:17Z

<as well as telling his caucus delegates to go to obama> now that should tell some of you who are doubting Obama A LOT. but i agree the jurry should be out till he does good stuff. Just get him in to see, god i almost feel like geting a green card just so i can vote, its so important Obama wins this and the republicans dont.

Elo 2008-06-10T20:08:17Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#331747b6-4c93-42b2-ab17-fcd2e368b11c 2008-06-10T20:05:54Z 2008-06-10T20:05:54Z

I hope your right Will that Obama does give him a senior postion, because it would be fantastic if this man got on Obamas "board" so to speak. is this stuff being reported in your mainstream press by the way, and reportedly prominatly and fairly ? the Kucinich asking for impechment and they 35 points I mean ? Like here something like that would definatly be headline on mainstream TV news and headline in all the major national papers. Very curious about that ?

Elo 2008-06-10T20:05:54Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#f8dc84b6-6a22-4fa3-830c-9f8f438172d9 2008-06-10T20:00:10Z 2008-06-10T20:00:10Z

"another good point with be if Obama gave Dennis Kucinich a senior postion once in office." You can count on that, if dennis wants it. Kucinich has helped obama aLOT by being more to the left and offering some political cover on this account as well as telling his caucus delegates to go to obama. I think sec of housing and urban development might be a good post for kucinich. His experience is almost totally domestic policy, and his time as a mayor of a major city would serve him and the country well. He first came to my attention as the boy wonder mayor of cleveland. He was actually 31, but he had a lot of radical ideas, and he screwed up big time, actually. But kept at the politics and has become what he is, a great progressive politician.

wil 2008-06-10T20:00:10Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#e6b1897c-4c79-4775-aca2-d6207a592287 2008-06-10T19:54:57Z 2008-06-10T19:54:57Z

> Obama gave Dennis Kucinich a senior postion if he does that, i say Obama is for real change, if he does not, well, all here know what i think

Ozai 2008-06-10T19:54:57Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#7640c1cc-9d99-4964-89bb-9b39564f7868 2008-06-10T19:50:37Z 2008-06-10T19:50:37Z

yeh if Obama wins he should make Kucinich whatever you guys call the postion thats head of law and order, and he should make his first task then to get Bush sent to prision for war crimes ! now maybe with Obama in power that would be possible. Still, would it unite the country as obama cliams he wants ? just asking.

Elo 2008-06-10T19:50:37Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#149b0c4f-769c-4b60-b4a7-06187e09eae1 2008-06-10T19:46:52Z 2008-06-10T19:46:52Z

that may soften me up a bit to obama, good point elo! did everyone read the 35 articles? we need someone like kucinich to bring back the integrity of the united states of america!!!!!!!!!!!!

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T19:46:52Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#48c15a8a-19a4-435e-8adf-9ed973482bfa 2008-06-10T19:44:08Z 2008-06-10T19:44:08Z

another good point with be if Obama gave Dennis Kucinich a senior postion once in office.

Elo 2008-06-10T19:44:08Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#66e36dc1-eeab-4627-9ee1-5892097b2cf2 2008-06-10T19:42:34Z 2008-06-10T19:42:34Z

a good polotican as well as being an idealist with good ideas must WIN - no point having idealistic ideas but no power to make them happen. Kennedy understood that very well. As i say if Obama becomes MORE radical, not less, once in power, then youll know if hes good. whatever happens America has major pluto oppositions transits first to venus, then Jupiter, then finaly its sun all in sequence starting now and ending about 2015 (!) with pretty much no break from now till 2015. so Will you know a bit about astrology - just think about what all that could mean ! Obama or not i think your all in for a bumpy ride, and we will be too as America is at the centre of the wheel still. But Pluto is about change, and that should be welcomed.

Elo 2008-06-10T19:42:34Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#b0b4aaf9-5bd9-4b08-bc7c-2718ccf2e084 2008-06-10T19:40:53Z 2008-06-10T19:40:53Z

wow, just read the 35 points......... dennis kucinich is my fucking hero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! brave, strong, wise, loving.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T19:40:53Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#f4b0e5d8-b469-4a62-b3ba-7ce65eccf76d 2008-06-10T19:37:36Z 2008-06-10T19:37:36Z

This Place without Auton would Suck Drastically, i have learned a lot from his posts.

Ozai 2008-06-10T19:37:36Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#42bffa4f-45ba-485b-8b9e-0f1a09213da1 2008-06-10T19:33:50Z 2008-06-10T19:33:50Z

auton, thank you so much for posting that....this morning i was trying to find the 35 points and here you found it!!!!!! fabulous!

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T19:33:50Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#858bba6f-6bdc-448b-a568-a090c48cf396 2008-06-10T19:30:04Z 2008-06-10T19:30:04Z

> There's only one politician left in the US: The only one i would support at this time, but few will listen to him.

Ozai 2008-06-10T19:30:04Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#85bca987-f916-4175-8138-e7617d8072ce 2008-06-10T19:28:23Z 2008-06-10T19:28:23Z

> I really don't understand what you're getting at. yes, it seems we are looking at this from very different angles. However, my respects towards you are still high and there.

Ozai 2008-06-10T19:28:23Z Auton http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#c61607ea-c3fe-4dd8-84a8-faf8b5bb7f7b 2008-06-10T19:27:51Z 2008-06-10T19:27:51Z

Forget Obama. There's only one politician left in the US: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/article3786591.ece

Auton 2008-06-10T19:27:51Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#b32da992-8a62-44ea-b147-23cf3f9bf9ea 2008-06-10T19:10:51Z 2008-06-10T19:10:51Z

Ozai, the missing votes are not enough to override the filibuster. The 43 republican votes are enough to stop the measure, so some senators, likely the ones campaigning, but i haven't checked, anyway 6 senators figured that they didn't really have to be there for any practical purpose, which they did not, so they weren't there and i don't blame them a bit. I really don't understand what you're getting at. I don't know anything about babylonian prostitution.

wil 2008-06-10T19:10:51Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#aa01c37f-52a1-4f12-941a-0b5818bd2f8b 2008-06-10T18:45:10Z 2008-06-10T18:45:10Z

> Even if the 6 votes had been there .. Wil, i think the 6 missing votes proves with out any shadow of doubt my point, that White House and Congress (for the most part) is the whore house of Babylon ! Is all a Fucking Game, cant you see ?

Ozai 2008-06-10T18:45:10Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#827dbcd4-83f4-4856-84cc-8b47d482365f 2008-06-10T18:41:13Z 2008-06-10T18:41:13Z

Even if the 6 votes had been there, there is no way it could have passed with 43 republicans voting against the measure. Two thirds, 60 votes, is a high hurdle if you hold majority by the thinnest possible margin. You, and a lot of others, have been blaming dems for something that is emphatically and totally not their fault! The republicans have used this a record number of times to thwart democratic authored legislation on iraq and many other items.

wil 2008-06-10T18:41:13Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#7203a00e-cbb9-4385-957f-bb8cbd729fdc 2008-06-10T18:24:11Z 2008-06-10T18:22:31Z

<<I think it most likely that bush will live out his days in a prison cell under a life sentence as a war criminal. >> you know ive been quite critical of American poltics, and as an outisider here i realise its a bit cheeky of me being that most of you are America, but i have to say this in defence of America, when Will says Bush could be locked away for war crimes, maybe just maybe in your country this could happen. Thats the good side of your country - dynamic, action, people get are not afraid to wash there dirty laundery in public. Blair he was just as bad on Iraq, at times i think worse because at the end of the day 9/11 did happen in America, nothing like that had happened here, he was to me so obvioulsy just courting power, trying to get up Bush's arss to feel powerful. But you know what, the chances of Blair going to prison for war crimes are less than zero, absoultly. You see we are just too moderate for that here ! This is my big hope for America, you lot are not always moderate at all, your dynamic , pushy and not afraid of action, so my hope is that in Obama you may see the postive side of American dynamisim. Ozari, i am with you in that we have to waite and see. You know its very simple, the best way to judge Obama is see if his politics become more radical after he gets elected (hopefuly he does) or more conservative. If he goes more radical - like Kenday, you then know that some of the issues we are talking about here, that like Will says he just played it safe being a ralistist he felt he had to get in office. But when he IS in office, hopefuly you should then see postive sweeping changes if he is truely a good many like Kenady. However, if he plays it safe once in office, you then know all this " we want change" has been hype just to get him in. Just make damn sure you get him in so you can see, because sure as hell nobody else is going to give you the change your looking for now, who else can now ? PS Kristalina i hate condoleeza rice with a passion too, in my books shes up there with chenny.

Elo 2008-06-10T18:22:31Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#e5d494ef-d917-4600-81e9-5fa5920eb264 2008-06-10T18:13:57Z 2008-06-10T18:13:57Z

> It takes 60 votes to override a filabuster It seems like some Dems in Congress dont care about that, who are the other 6 votes missing ? can we find that ? Thanks wil

Ozai 2008-06-10T18:13:57Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#750ef89b-4a9e-4b60-95b3-b76d5851a4b9 2008-06-10T18:09:01Z 2008-06-10T18:09:01Z

So it seems that 6 democrats votes went on vacations (maybe paid by oil companies) while this was going on ?

Ozai 2008-06-10T18:09:01Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#fe588c3c-440e-49c6-9f62-503a00653b19 2008-06-10T18:04:35Z 2008-06-10T18:04:35Z

Actually, 49 dems and 2 independents. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate#Current_composition_and_latest_election_results

wil 2008-06-10T18:04:35Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#5311f207-6ab6-458b-97ec-d08307e38a45 2008-06-10T18:02:19Z 2008-06-10T18:02:19Z

It takes 60 votes to override a filabuster. There are 100 senators, and it takes 2/3 majority to override. There are 51 dems in the senate.

wil 2008-06-10T18:02:19Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#7c31d828-8ab2-428f-ad98-480e019b22a6 2008-06-10T18:01:54Z 2008-06-10T18:01:54Z

"I think it most likely that bush will live out his days in a prison cell under a life sentence as a war criminal." i hope condoleeza rice is the first to go down.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T18:01:54Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#4e1ebf41-f9d2-42c5-b055-fb5e64d5e745 2008-06-10T18:00:45Z 2008-06-10T18:00:45Z

Seems there are there 6 deomon votes missing here.pls help me with the math, im not so sure now, thanks

Ozai 2008-06-10T18:00:45Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#d844e941-59d9-4229-bad6-beb248437acc 2008-06-10T17:58:00Z 2008-06-10T17:58:00Z

Ozai. It takes 60 votes to override a filabuster, and the republicans have been very skillful at applying this bottleneck. If it were to get passed, it would face a veto and not have the votes to override that. I sure wish everyone would pay close attention to the way this all works. Bush has also used signing statements and recess appointments to thwart the will of the congress and the people, far more than any previous president. What to watch for now is the "october surprise" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise an old republican dirty trick. I think he will give israel the go ahead to bomb iran, or perhaps even use the u.s. military to do it. There are lots of signals that this is to be the case.

wil 2008-06-10T17:58:00Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#36292e87-271f-485a-878b-1f7fb8b6acd6 2008-06-10T17:52:00Z 2008-06-10T17:52:00Z

51+43= 94 any of them not on the floor at that time ?

Ozai 2008-06-10T17:52:00Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#8b6e8893-394c-4e24-b388-0cf38ce4f0bd 2008-06-10T17:49:43Z 2008-06-10T17:49:43Z

Any Democrats voting against this bill ? No

wil 2008-06-10T17:49:43Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#1d32c3b3-840b-4eb1-86d8-8282c758b2cf 2008-06-10T17:29:40Z 2008-06-10T17:29:40Z

Did this changed ? " Democrats have won a narrow majority in the US Senate and regained total control of Congress after 12 years of near-domination by the Republican Party, according to the Associated Press. AP declared that Democrats completed their sweep when Jim Webb ousted Republican Senator George Allen of Virginia, the last of six Republicans to lose. This would give the Democrats 51 seats in the 100-seat Senate when Congress reconvenes in January. Democrats had 229 seats in the House, 11 more than the number necessary to hold the barest of majorities in the 435-member chamber. " http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ap-democrats-seize-total-control-of-us-congress-423572.html

Ozai 2008-06-10T17:29:40Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#a5cae0e1-2973-4b82-98c3-3f8d310dae18 2008-06-10T17:26:31Z 2008-06-10T17:26:31Z

> Democrats today failed, 51-43, to get the 60 votes needed to overcome a Republican filibuster > of the energy package and bring the bill up for consideration. Any Democrats voting against this bill ?

Ozai 2008-06-10T17:26:31Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#7fe20687-0bf8-4ebd-83c3-2aec89148b5c 2008-06-10T17:20:08Z 2008-06-10T17:20:08Z

I think cheney and others will be in the same prison, if they live long enough. It'll take some years to get there. The law of karma, however, has not been repealed and does not get stopped by filabusters. The democratic party is corrupt, but not nearly as corrupt as the republican party. There is a huge difference between voting to fund a military effort in progress and telling lies to the u.s. and world public in order to wage an unfair war for the purpose of taking their resources. If Obama had voted to end funding, he would be defeated in the general election for wanting to "abandon our brave young men and women who are in harms way" What's more, the vote, like a vote for impeachment, would just be symbolic as it had no hope of passing, and would have just played into conservative hands. Here is obama defending his vote, which i think he does very well: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/03/22/obama_defends_votes_in_favor_of_iraq_funding/ this from today's news: Republicans block tax increase on oil companies' profits WASHINGTON (AP) -- Senate Republicans have blocked a Democratic plan to tax the windfall profits of the largest oil companies. Democrats today failed, 51-43, to get the 60 votes needed to overcome a Republican filibuster of the energy package and bring the bill up for consideration. Democrats said the huge profits enjoyed by the largest U.S. oil companies should be reined with many motorists paying more than $4 a gallon for gasoline and oil prices soaring well beyond $100 a barrel. But Republican critics said higher taxes on oil companies would increase -- not lower -- gasoline prices and reduce the incentive for domestic oil exploration and production. http://www.ktbs.com/news/Republicans-block-tax-increase-on-oil-companies-profits-12911/

wil 2008-06-10T17:20:08Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#5c0da798-3182-4284-9a7a-ef3fd97fdddc 2008-06-10T17:10:29Z 2008-06-10T17:10:29Z

Just Bush ? How about the VP and all the White House staff that pushed this war. I say we make all the politician that voted for war (including Obama) pay for the extra cost of fuel and the billion dollar deficit this country has, and did not have before Bust took power. I seen people in jail for stealing stuff that many would trow away. So many broken families bc the father is in jail for something stupid, while public representatives steal in almost every state. The Democratic party is as corrupted as the Republican.

Ozai 2008-06-10T17:10:29Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#4c98ccf2-6238-422c-a5c7-5fa69918f73d 2008-06-10T16:57:35Z 2008-06-10T16:57:35Z

I think it most likely that bush will live out his days in a prison cell under a life sentence as a war criminal.

wil 2008-06-10T16:57:35Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#fdf94bf0-7666-4c5f-80e6-4820bc2fdce7 2008-06-10T16:30:12Z 2008-06-10T16:30:12Z

Wil, Time will uncover all. This is one of the moments that i wish i would be proved wrong. But right now no one can. We will all have to wait and see what happens after the elections, if we make it there. The Clan that put Bush in power (with electoral fraud) is still in Power.

Ozai 2008-06-10T16:30:12Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#780470a2-2d6c-4092-b84f-a51f1f130131 2008-06-10T16:28:04Z 2008-06-10T16:28:04Z

littleflower, i am ohioan too!!!!!!!!!!

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T16:28:04Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#6f666cb6-8e21-4ed3-adb5-74bd772726b4 2008-06-10T16:25:25Z 2008-06-10T16:25:25Z

thats good, sometimes the way your writing sounds, it sounds like repeated propaganda.....good to know :)

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T16:25:25Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#e4bc0e1e-7c7f-48ae-aa79-7f9b552eab89 2008-06-10T16:21:28Z 2008-06-10T16:21:28Z

You know, i'm pretty sure i've never watched fox news, not having had a tv for many years and getting my news from npr, bbc and the internet. I do use huffington post and yahoo news portals, but i figured this out all by mycellf. How could impeachment possibly proceed when the republicans are successfully stopping pretty much anything they don't like with senate filibusters? That's a fact of political life now that i don't like worth a damn, but that's the way it is.

wil 2008-06-10T16:21:28Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#0061d4a5-85e0-4d93-8d82-ff3fed1dbccc 2008-06-10T15:45:30Z 2008-06-10T15:45:30Z

if people are interested in signing a petition that will be sent to your local senators and representatives, here is the link.... http://www.democrats.com/35-articles-of-impeachment

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T15:45:30Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#102790b8-92c4-430c-95f7-5e4fafdeae5e 2008-06-10T15:21:00Z 2008-06-10T15:21:00Z

is that what fox news told you wil?

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T15:21:00Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#962459aa-5b95-4187-9606-079074a17b2c 2008-06-10T13:02:21Z 2008-06-10T13:02:21Z

It's symbolic, not a practical possibility. I'm glad kucinich is doing it, and very glad obama is not. I want him to get elected. I want actual, not symbolic changes. Obamas record is very progressive, actually way more progressive than the american public, and he needs to position himcellf towards the middle of the american political spectrum in order to get elected. That's an unpleasant political reality he has to deal with if he wants to win, which he does. Like i said, this is symbolic and has absolutely no chance to go forward, and if it did, we would have president cheney............

wil 2008-06-10T13:02:21Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#e4bd2b2d-1fe0-47ac-84a3-59f7d29945b0 2008-06-10T12:40:29Z 2008-06-10T12:40:29Z

this is great, wonder how far he gets with it ? in defence of Obama i think if he done this kind of thing he would maybe alienate the middle ground in america which he needs to win some of to beat Mcain ? I think Kucinich does well to do this kind of thing to draw attention to the badness that Bush is and has done, but Obama will do well to beat Mccain - that is of paramount importance. Obama after all has said he sees a need to unite a dvided America. Not that im not saying a lot of what bush has done isnt disgusting and im very behind Kuncinich doing this, but i think i can see what Obama means when he talks about uniting a divided America, if he wants to make real change in america, and even to put america back to where it was before bush will take a lot of change now, then he needs as much public support behind him. I think Obamas campaign is all based on postivity and "yes we can" stuff, so i think this kind of thing would maybe risk him looking bitter, or angry to the right, and i dont think that comes across as well as the postivity he is using in is campaigns, negativity like in the same way as Mcains "no you cant" campaign which i thought pathetic, doesnt inspire people so much. I think what Obama is doing with his campaiagn is puting postivity and upbeatness back into your poltics and thats why people are responding so much ? As much as I am angry about Iraq, and the aprox 1 million dead there, I'm all for somone just, once thats happened, wanting to move forward and past all that negativity and mprove things and change the way things work in America, and i think Obama has cleverly judged this to be the mood of the mass of people in America now ? Thats just my 20 cents worth, as im not an American and dont live there obviously my knowledge is llimited ! I am however watching this closesly as i see it as vital to the world. Im definatly with you Ozari when you say lets wait and see with Obama when he gets in if the actions turn out as good as the promises, but one thing for sure i hope and prey he gets into office rather than mccain so we can at least see what we get, becuase for sure you know what youll get with Mccain. So i say make sure he gets in , then see !

Elo 2008-06-10T12:40:29Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#05f93210-715b-4ffd-b79d-d54ecf40935a 2008-06-10T05:00:22Z 2008-06-10T05:00:22Z

Excellent!

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T05:00:22Z Ozai http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#b772a555-67f3-438c-8a2c-f1b8113a8d20 2008-06-10T04:57:45Z 2008-06-10T04:57:45Z

I wish Obama would have the guts to do that. Then, and only then i would think he is as honest as many paint him. But for now, he is just another politician that has flaked in very sensitive issues.

Ozai 2008-06-10T04:57:45Z little flower http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#909cef9d-a74b-42b9-831b-80c5ef85a252 2008-06-10T04:45:44Z 2008-06-10T04:45:44Z

Yes! i love my little fellow Ohioan! (wish i had cable) :(

little flower 2008-06-10T04:45:44Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/9649d033-c2c0-4cf7-86fe-f7782a14a763#dee9d12e-18ee-46f5-a634-c4ed984a126a 2008-06-10T03:57:36Z 2008-06-10T03:57:36Z

at least somebody has balls....he is even trying twice. A few moments ago (approximately 7:30 p.m. EDT, 09JUN2008), Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich took to the floor of the House of Representatives to present 35 Articles of Impeachment against George W. Bush. The House session is being televised live on C-SPAN.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-06-10T03:57:36Z