Tribe.net. Local Connections Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#4033ec08-d010-4201-a6ea-bbe79a831d28 2009-07-04T21:23:32Z 2009-07-04T21:23:32Z

And once Again, a time for a Plug on my Tribe... Tired of the Hooplah? Want some Real Answers? http://tribes.tribe.net/satya2012

Manjushri 2009-07-04T21:23:32Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e3dbfc51-850f-4313-8503-013bab3f2d46 2009-07-04T21:20:24Z 2009-07-04T21:20:24Z

"Pleiades is in fact the Anti-Axis to the Galactic Center... and when the Winter Solstice Sun in 1998 is in fact Align with the Galactic Equator one Could have in Fact Draw a line through the sun, earth, and Pleiades... You still will be able to on Dec 21, 2012... But once Again that is still not the Alignment I was Talking about... " Well it was one I mentioned... but at that time was not the one I was talking about... And once again, It was meant to be viewed from above the solar system looking down... Not From Earth... OH, and throwing another bone... The Sun's EMF flipped in 2005... The Winter Solstice Sun did Align with the Galactic Equator in 1998 an Event that only Happens once every 25,625 years... :p And so Hoopes will Shut up... No The Sun Does not Align, as viewed from Earth, with the Exact Galactic Center... Though It does pass through the Dark Rift which Contains the Galactic Center... Which is all I ever Meant with the OG statement... Hoopes confusion does not = Manjushri being Wrong in his statements.... Sorry. Better luck next time. LOL OKay I am done now... Was pretty bored and Fired UP...

Manjushri 2009-07-04T21:20:24Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#6ebe3222-d18c-42f0-970a-80d7d689ce9b 2009-07-04T21:11:33Z 2009-07-04T21:11:33Z

Oh and then there is the Alignment of the Sun and Solar System with the Galactic Plane...but yeah that is on a 64million year cycle and we are more at risk when we are far above or below the plane... not when we are in it... Just throwing that in there as there are many that believe there is a connection to 2012...

Manjushri 2009-07-04T21:11:33Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#eecb1bcc-38e3-4a3c-8353-06bc5d4873a5 2009-07-04T20:08:25Z 2009-07-04T20:08:25Z

"Hoopes, you do realize that On Dec 21, 1998 When the Sun Aligned The Galactic Equator... That It was A Winter Solstice Sun... And that it Only Happens once every 25,725(25,625Mayan) years? That is One of the 3 Galactic Alignments That I recognize... But not the one I was talking with you about in this thread... But same thing... It will take 1 full precession for the Winter Solstice Sun to Be in ANY location it again... The Galactic Equator is just a good marker... But this is not the Galactic Alignment That I speak of or JMJ even... Though he does mention the Galactic Equator as do I as part of the Alignment... And as itself a separate Galactic Alignment... I am sorry I was not more precise... But I thought you literally knew nothing and wanted me to tell you exactly where the Galactic Center Was... Which I did... SGR A*... You are still very confused as to what I meant... I told you several times that I more meant the area around the Galactic Center... as viewed by the Mayans... Not the Exact Location of SGR A*... Your Reposted Separate discussions about separate topics shows this very clearly.... and in no way proves your point... But once again furthers mine. With that now in Context... "But the Alignment with Galactic Center on they day of the Winter Solstice Sun is a cosmic event that only happens once every 25,627." That is 100% true... The Sun as previously stated... Will Take 1 full Precession to Align again with the Galactic Equator... Or any other Marker you wish to use along the Ecliptic... Or about 25,627 years... Pleiades is in fact the Anti-Axis to the Galactic Center... and when the Winter Solstice Sun in 1998 is in fact Align with the Galactic Equator one Could have in Fact Draw a line through the sun, earth, and Pleiades... You still will be able to on Dec 21, 2012... But once Again that is still not the Alignment I was Talking about... But Here I am Saying... ""The Galactic Alignment is the alignment of the December solstice sun with the Galactic equator." Yes... That is True... It is A Galactic Alignment... And it DID happen in 1998... The Same Year I have been telling everyone A Shift Happened... and The Entity of the Earth became 4th Density... BTW if you would have Just Asked Intelligent Questions... Instead of Arguing Ignorantly... You would have gotten much better answers... Really Hoopes... I still don't see Where you Won the Debate... You just keeping Repeating the Same Stuff... NOT to mention Once Again.. My Statement that you Argued with Originally was an Answer to Someones Question... And I am the only one Still to answer it... And my answer is still correct as well... Really man... Reread the Whole Thing... And see everything I wrote... Then Understand what I meant... Not what you want me to mean to further a dead debate you can't win..." See, I have told you all this before...

Manjushri 2009-07-04T20:08:25Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#5a42f0cc-2f15-42fa-a002-b6a6cb2b042b 2009-07-04T20:01:31Z 2009-07-04T20:01:31Z

"" It is important to define what the Galactic Alignment is in precise astronomical terms. (See the Glossary below for terms.) The Galactic Alignment is the alignment of the December solstice sun with the Galactic equator. This alignment occurs as a result of the precession of the equinoxes. Precession is caused by the earth wobbling very slowly on its axis and shifts the position of the equinoxes and solstices one degree every 71.5 years. Because the sun is one-half of a degree wide, it will take the December solstice sun 36 years to precess through the Galactic equator (see diagram below). The precise alignment of the solstice point (the precise center-point of the body of the sun as viewed from earth) with the Galactic equator was calculated to occur in 1998 (Jean Meeus, Mathematical Astronomy Morsels, 1997). Thus, the Galactic Alignment "zone" is 1998 +/- 18 years = 1980 - 2016. This is "era-2012." This Galactic Alignment occurs only once every 26,000 years, and was what the ancient Maya were pointing to with the 2012 end-date of their Long Count calendar. " That quote if from the page alignment2012.com/whatisGA.htm that you posted... note the last sentence. You are confusing the Alignment with the ERA... The winter solstice sun is 1 DAY and it is only completely Aligned one day with the Galatic Center, the Earth and the Anti-Axis in Pleiades... read more, my friend... your so close to understanding it..." Here I quote Jenkins... Then go on about the Alignment that I was Originally referring too... Which is not Viewed from the Earth At all... (why I mention an Anti-Axis which you could not possibly see at the same time, Duh) Like I keep saying as well, there are many alignments around this time which mean different things to different cultures but all have to do with measuring Precession...

Manjushri 2009-07-04T20:01:31Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#858444f9-33ea-47fe-902c-fbcc43d7318d 2009-07-04T19:55:21Z 2009-07-04T19:55:07Z

"That simple question has a very complicated answer. Both dates are related to the precession of the equinoxes. 12.21.2012 is the end of the Baktun Long Count. A period of 13 Baktuns or 5,125.36 years is indicated on creation monuments as one 'World Age', 5 such 'World Ages' or about 25,627 years is equal to one full precession." So Far So Good.... 100% Accurate and no need for Elaboration... "It is not the end of the Mayan Calendar, but a specific marker. On that day the Winter Solstice Sun will pass through the Galactic Center, an event that only happens once every 25,627. " Here it is, where the Confusion Starts... ( Or a Troll's Chance to make a Stir ) Like I have repeated several times... I did mean "Galactic Center" as in the Mayan Meaning, "Dark Rift", which is a very large area and is not the Exact Center(Thought It does contain it within the Area). When Hoopes Asked me What the Galactic Center Was(I thought He Siriusly did not Know), instead of putting it in my own words, I quoted Wikipedia... I guess my only real mistake. He thought then that I meant not only an Alignment viewed from earth, but an exact alignment and that it was from my Mayan sources... Wrong, Wrong, Wrong... He then, as you can see by reading, (lol) continued to believe this despite me telling him that it is not what I meant... "The Mayans were incredibly accurate... The main problem being the actual beginning of the Age of Aquarius. First the stars are not in the same place they were 26,000 ago, and the Zodiac was very different as well. The modern Zodiac is based on 12 signs, but there is a 13th sign known in ancient times, Ophiuchus or the Serpent Bearer. IF you use 26,000 years for 1 precession and divide that by 12 for the number of the Zodiacal signs you will get 2166.6, using 25,800 you will get 2150. The Birth of Jesus is the start of the western Gregorian Calendar. Jesus was the Avatar for the Sign of Pisces, so starting at the year 0 AD and then adding the time of one Age you will get the year the Age of Aquarius will begin... As you see, 2150 is a good guess... IF you use only 12 signs... IF you use 13 signs you will get 26000/13=2000, 25800/13=1984, 25750/13=1980. So yes they are related... One is highly accurate, has undergone no major changes, and has a reset to realign with the stars every 52 years... That would be the Mayan Calendar... The other is highly inaccurate, based on calendars no longer in use, has undergone major changes many times, and never resets to keep up with the movement of the stars... That would be the western calendars. I hope that spurs more research and answers a question everyone seemed to ignore to debate the reference movie." The rest was over looked I guess... LOL Once Again Hoopes has only succeeded at proving that he is a Troll. Or really Confused... If the Later he owes me many Apologies...

Manjushri 2009-07-04T19:55:07Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#b458fe46-b68f-44d8-b2f7-b7164dfa802f 2009-07-04T19:45:17Z 2009-07-04T19:45:17Z

""and to elaborate more... what is meant by 'passes through' is a little vague. It actually Aligns with the Galactic Center, Earth, and the Anti-Center which is in the Pleiades star cluster... " As Seen from Above... Not From Earth... 'Cause obviously even further elaboration was needed... " And nor do I say that is what the Mayans are Saying... I am simply Saying they have a more Accurate Clock for the Precession and prefer to use that System of measurement...

Manjushri 2009-07-04T19:45:17Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#3004d201-c91e-48f8-9dc0-ec3d65be9a75 2009-07-04T19:43:42Z 2009-07-04T19:43:42Z

"and to elaborate more... what is meant by 'passes through' is a little vague. It actually Aligns with the Galactic Center, Earth, and the Anti-Center which is in the Pleiades star cluster... " As Seen from Above... Not From Earth... 'Cause obviously even further elaboration was needed...

Manjushri 2009-07-04T19:43:42Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e282c4b1-eb5e-4554-b7fe-1f7ff4c6f319 2009-07-04T19:35:08Z 2009-07-04T19:35:08Z

OH and BTW, I mean no offense.... These are just my humble observations and opinions. I am not Judging... Just observing...

Manjushri 2009-07-04T19:35:08Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#013be1be-4a84-4aa1-8330-cebbf8f143c0 2009-07-04T19:33:37Z 2009-07-04T19:33:37Z

"Regardless... I am tired of it... It it retarded and rude. " Typo: *It IS retarded and rude.* Man I am retarded too... LOL

Manjushri 2009-07-04T19:33:37Z orpheus http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2dabc9e4-fe17-4a99-80f8-3f1f56f1ef50 2009-07-04T18:53:44Z 2009-07-04T18:53:44Z

http://medialounge.org/magus

orpheus 2009-07-04T18:53:44Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#40940269-d9ac-4413-b215-3d273b0c66ea 2009-07-04T18:19:57Z 2009-07-04T18:19:57Z

"My point is that if it's the "whole thing" than it's not "exact". There is plenty of room for fudging, which is what you, Jenkins, and others delight in doing. As with many myths, there is just enough of a core of "truth" to give it the ring of credibility along with plenty of wiggle room to accomodate invented scenarios. " Here let me explain it slowing and in small words for you... The Mayans only were concerned with the Dark Rift... Modern Astronomy is concerned with Exact Centers... The Mayans Talk about the World Tree and Dark Rift... I never said the Mayans Talked of anything More or Less... Period... Find it, I dare you... The Sun Aligned with the Galactic Equator in 1998... The Cosmic Cross (one of the many events that have been labeled as Galactic Alignments) is the 2012 event.. The Cosmic Cross is not Talked about by the Mayans... I can see why you get confused when you insert things I did not say, then give them meaning I Never Would... Once again... Either your Stupid, Confused, or using Straw-Man Arguments to try to Win the Debate... Regardless... I am tired of it... It it retarded and rude. If you want I can go back to all you have said and do the same thing... But I actually have a Life... I am not Lame like you... Anyway, Despite being the Clear Victor in the Debate... I was forced into it and now feel dirty... I am going to go Shower, you disgust me...

Manjushri 2009-07-04T18:19:57Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#1c01b58f-ce08-43ec-bc47-e8de51d89dca 2009-07-04T18:11:38Z 2009-07-04T18:11:38Z

"""The Sun does not occult Sagittarius A*, a.k.a the black hole at the center of the Milky Way, a.k.a. the Galactic Center, at any time on December 21, 2012. " "Still trying to find where I say it does... "Oh WAIT... I never did... Oh yeah... that is why I was ROFLMAO..." Here. Let me help you out. You wrote, "So When you asked... What the Galactic Center Was... I told you... The Exact Galactic Center... " According to astronomers, the "Exact Galactic Center" is THE SAME THING as the black hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy (a.k.a. Sagittarius A*). You're apparently using the phrase "Exact Galactic Center" to mean the the general area of the "dark rift" or "nuclear bulge" to which John Major Jenkins refers. That may be the general area of the galactic center, but it's far from exact. "In this Case I meant the Galactic Center as Viewed by the Mayans... The Dark Rift... The WHOLE THING..." My point is that if it's the "whole thing" than it's not "exact". There is plenty of room for fudging, which is what you, Jenkins, and others delight in doing. As with many myths, there is just enough of a core of "truth" to give it the ring of credibility along with plenty of wiggle room to accomodate invented scenarios. " Yeah the Exact Center is the Exact Center, Duh... I answered your Questions correctly... Perhaps you need to Ask better Questions... DUH... Man, Hoopes your Dumb... And Very Confused... I never Said Anything About the Mayans mentioning the Exact Center... But When you asked Where the Center Was.... I Told you... Remember When I wrote that I thought you literally had no Idea... And were not some Asshole trying to make some Retarded Point... So I told you... I never Said half the Crap you Think I said... Reread the Whole thing Dipshit.

Manjushri 2009-07-04T18:11:38Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7f0a5ff8-ec76-445f-824a-3537c75cb2c3 2008-08-11T14:39:59Z 2008-08-11T14:39:35Z

""The Sun does not occult Sagittarius A*, a.k.a the black hole at the center of the Milky Way, a.k.a. the Galactic Center, at any time on December 21, 2012. " "Still trying to find where I say it does... "Oh WAIT... I never did... Oh yeah... that is why I was ROFLMAO..." Here. Let me help you out. You wrote, "So When you asked... What the Galactic Center Was... I told you... The Exact Galactic Center... " According to astronomers, the "Exact Galactic Center" is THE SAME THING as the black hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy (a.k.a. Sagittarius A*). You're apparently using the phrase "Exact Galactic Center" to mean the the general area of the "dark rift" or "nuclear bulge" to which John Major Jenkins refers. That may be the general area of the galactic center, but it's far from exact. "In this Case I meant the Galactic Center as Viewed by the Mayans... The Dark Rift... The WHOLE THING..." My point is that if it's the "whole thing" than it's not "exact". There is plenty of room for fudging, which is what you, Jenkins, and others delight in doing. As with many myths, there is just enough of a core of "truth" to give it the ring of credibility along with plenty of wiggle room to accomodate invented scenarios. A RUMP APUM PUM

Hoopes 2008-08-11T14:39:35Z roger http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#824970c8-08f9-48b9-a8bb-985c56d2689c 2008-08-11T14:32:03Z 2008-08-11T14:32:03Z

FINALLY FINALLY I HAVE SEEN THE COMING OF MY PROPHECY: manjo: i knew hoo would get you stab in the gut, and leave the flag... grammar checker pp:A more accurate statement would be...

roger 2008-08-11T14:32:03Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7f08d276-5620-4d9c-8ca0-7428017599a8 2008-08-11T14:25:09Z 2008-08-11T14:25:09Z

"On that day the Winter Solstice Sun will pass through the Galactic Center, an event that only happens once every 25,627." Manjushri, why do you insist on repeating this myth over and over and over and over and over ad nauseam? A more accurate statement would be, "the path of the Sun will intersect with the presumed Galactic Equator (a meridian whose exact location is imprecisely known), an event that has been occurring annually for over twenty years"? http://alignment2012.com/whatisGA.htm Why do you insist on conflating the Galactic Equator with the Galactic Center? The movie "Journey to the Center of the Earth" is not about a visit to the Equator!

Hoopes 2008-08-11T14:25:09Z alchemism http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#0f1d8e6f-861b-4231-aaab-e1263a84b96d 2008-08-10T23:06:55Z 2008-08-10T23:06:55Z

The landowners didn't want a crippled building sitting on their plot of land for years. Look how long it is taking to demolish one of the other badly-damaged buildings near the 9/11 site -- almost 7 years now! The demo site even caught fire and firefighters lost their lives combating the blaze. So there is your Building 7 conspiracy, folks. Landlords facilitating the redevelopment of their multibillion-dollar property by quick and dirty demolition. Not a very sexy conspiracy, is it? Oh well.

alchemism 2008-08-10T23:06:55Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#c6c7d19d-5e76-4f55-898b-625f11e6665f 2008-08-10T20:06:58Z 2008-08-10T20:06:58Z

"That is 100% true... The Sun as previously stated... Will Take 1 full Precession to Align again with the Galactic Equator... Or any other Marker you wish to use along the Ecliptic... Or about 25,627 years... " Darn, See I made another mistake... It will actually only take 13,000 years for the sun to align with the galactic equator... but of the opposite side of the ecliptic from the galactic center... But yes roughly 26,000 for it to Align with the Galactic Equator near the Galactic Center.

Manjushri 2008-08-10T20:06:58Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#37f66d57-e4b7-4651-a738-a0a60a67dc96 2008-08-10T19:57:25Z 2008-08-10T19:57:25Z

So When you asked... What the Galactic Center Was... I told you... The Exact Galactic Center... See it was your Questions friend... My answers have been right the whole time... Taking Each one out of Context does not change what I think or mean... My data is all accurate... I would not post it on a public forum if it were not... I do make mistakes... And Obviously a lot of Typos... But I slam these things out mostly from the top of my head and with out proof reading... So I think I am doing well... Back to the "On that day the Winter Solstice Sun will pass through the Galactic Center, an event that only happens once every 25,627" In this Case I meant the Galactic Center as Viewed by the Mayans... The Dark Rift... The WHOLE THING... or do you not see the Significance of this Area of the Sky to the Mayans? The Sun DIES for 3 days... Starting on Dec 21, 2012... It does this Every Year... But not every Year is the End of the Baktun Long Count, now is it... And really End is the Wrong Term... Reset Day is more like it... This is the Same as The Christmas Astro-Theology... Dec 25, the Sun is Reborn and Begins to leave the Dark Rift Again.. The Thing about the Timings for The Mayan... Is the World Tree *The Milky Way* Stands up on end... Which it is doing Dec 21, 2012... They say the World Tree has Risen... But mostly they know it is the End of the Baktun... Because they have been counting... For them this event is not a 1 day thing... it spans many years... 13 Starting on Dec 21 1999... 1998 was the end of the previous 13 year count... the total is 39 or 3 sets of 13... completely covering the 36 years the sun takes to 'pass thru' the galactic equator... OM A RA PA CA NA DHIH DHIH DHIH

Manjushri 2008-08-10T19:57:25Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#a83acf9f-900f-44bc-87d7-8c478fdf41b2 2008-08-10T18:23:04Z 2008-08-10T18:23:04Z

chycho:"This is a great documentary summarizing the links of astrology to Christianity. I do have one question, this presentation states that we are moving into the Age of Aquarius in 2150. How does this relate to 2012? thanks for the help " Manjushri: 'That simple question has a very complicated answer. Both dates are related to the precession of the equinoxes. 12.21.2012 is the end of the Baktun Long Count. A period of 13 Baktuns or 5,125.36 years is indicated on creation monuments as one 'World Age', 5 such 'World Ages' or about 25,627 years is equal to one full precession. It is not the end of the Mayan Calendar, but a specific marker. On that day the Winter Solstice Sun will pass through the Galactic Center, an event that only happens once every 25,627. The Mayans were incredibly accurate... The main problem being the actual beginning of the Age of Aquarius. First the stars are not in the same place they were 26,000 ago, and the Zodiac was very different as well. The modern Zodiac is based on 12 signs, but there is a 13th sign known in ancient times, Ophiuchus or the Serpent Bearer. IF you use 26,000 years for 1 precession and divide that by 12 for the number of the Zodiacal signs you will get 2166.6, using 25,800 you will get 2150. The Birth of Jesus is the start of the western Gregorian Calendar. Jesus was the Avatar for the Sign of Pisces, so starting at the year 0 AD and then adding the time of one Age you will get the year the Age of Aquarius will begin... As you see, 2150 is a good guess... IF you use only 12 signs... IF you use 13 signs you will get 26000/13=2000, 25800/13=1984, 25750/13=1980. So yes they are related... One is highly accurate, has undergone no major changes, and has a reset to realign with the stars every 52 years... That would be the Mayan Calendar... The other is highly inaccurate, based on calendars no longer in use, has undergone major changes many times, and never resets to keep up with the movement of the stars...'

Manjushri 2008-08-10T18:23:04Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#5b083bc3-debd-4ee8-bd60-5acee545d27d 2008-08-10T18:17:27Z 2008-08-10T18:17:27Z

The 3rd Building was not hit by a Plane... It was Demolished... Explosives... None of the Buildings were Brought Down by the 'planes'.... They were Designed to withstand Several Hits from a 747 and still stand... Nor did the Fire bring Down Steel Frame/Concrete Buildings... They can't... It would be the first time in history... Which Leaves Demolitions... Explosives... AND Thermite... Which would Explain the Molten Pools of Steel... Thermite.. Also just watch any of the videos... the buildings fall at almost free fall speed... impossible from fire or planes... period... Only thing... Demolitions...

Manjushri 2008-08-10T18:17:27Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#fd7586b3-1b0e-48a6-af9d-f4e1c6faf926 2008-08-10T18:12:01Z 2008-08-10T18:12:01Z

"The Sun does not occult Sagittarius A*, a.k.a the black hole at the center of the Milky Way, a.k.a. the Galactic Center, at any time on December 21, 2012. " Still trying to find where I say it does... Oh WAIT... I never did... Oh yeah... that is why I was ROFLMAO... Who needs TV when you got Hoopes... you put me in a good mood every conversation... I just wish it was for different reasons... But bah... I take Amusement where I can get it...

Manjushri 2008-08-10T18:12:01Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ffb91dfd-7587-4d58-8a20-1aa8d70062b1 2008-08-10T18:05:58Z 2008-08-10T18:05:58Z

Hoopes, you do realize that On Dec 21, 1998 When the Sun Aligned The Galactic Equator... That It was A Winter Solstice Sun... And that it Only Happens once every 25,725(25,625Mayan) years? That is One of the 3 Galactic Alignments That I recognize... But not the one I was talking with you about in this thread... But same thing... It will take 1 full precession for the Winter Solstice Sun to Be in ANY location it again... The Galactic Equator is just a good marker... But this is not the Galactic Alignment That I speak of or JMJ even... Though he does mention the Galactic Equator as do I as part of the Alignment... And as itself a separate Galactic Alignment... I am sorry I was not more precise... But I thought you literally knew nothing and wanted me to tell you exactly where the Galactic Center Was... Which I did... SGR A*... You are still very confused as to what I meant... I told you several times that I more meant the area around the Galactic Center... as viewed by the Mayans... Not the Exact Location of SGR A*... Your Reposted Separate discussions about separate topics shows this very clearly.... and in no way proves your point... But once again furthers mine. With that now in Context... "But the Alignment with Galactic Center on they day of the Winter Solstice Sun is a cosmic event that only happens once every 25,627." That is 100% true... The Sun as previously stated... Will Take 1 full Precession to Align again with the Galactic Equator... Or any other Marker you wish to use along the Ecliptic... Or about 25,627 years... Pleiades is in fact the Anti-Axis to the Galactic Center... and when the Winter Solstice Sun in 1998 is in fact Align with the Galactic Equator one Could have in Fact Draw a line through the sun, earth, and Pleiades... You still will be able to on Dec 21, 2012... But once Again that is still not the Alignment I was Talking about... But Here I am Saying... ""The Galactic Alignment is the alignment of the December solstice sun with the Galactic equator." Yes... That is True... It is A Galactic Alignment... And it DID happen in 1998... The Same Year I have been telling everyone A Shift Happened... and The Entity of the Earth became 4th Density... BTW if you would have Just Asked Intelligent Questions... Instead of Arguing Ignorantly... You would have gotten much better answers... Really Hoopes... I still don't see Where you Won the Debate... You just keeping Repeating the Same Stuff... NOT to mention Once Again.. My Statement that you Argued with Originally was an Answer to Someones Question... And I am the only one Still to answer it... And my answer is still correct as well... Really man... Reread the Whole Thing... And see everything I wrote... Then Understand what I meant... Not what you want me to mean to further a dead debate you can't win...

Manjushri 2008-08-10T18:05:58Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#bf988fe3-3e1e-43f3-9a5e-b235f52177e0 2008-08-07T05:18:15Z 2008-08-07T05:18:15Z

"Not to quibble, but just to make sure we're perfectly clear on just one apple: The Sun does not occult Sagittarius A*, a.k.a the black hole at the center of the Milky Way, a.k.a. the Galactic Center, at any time on December 21, 2012. Are you cool with that? If not, I can explain it again. " LMAO... I really do enjoy you Hoopes...

Manjushri 2008-08-07T05:18:15Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#9f942270-5a15-4c8b-b1d4-0557980993f1 2008-08-07T05:02:40Z 2008-08-07T05:02:40Z

"Read your own words, Manjushri. You're inventing realities that never existed. That's consistent with your other mythmaking. " I did read my words... There are no contradictions on my side... And you are very obviously confused... Or YOU could be inventing Realities for YOUR Mythmaking...

Manjushri 2008-08-07T05:02:40Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#63740d34-24ed-48b0-b659-28c46511abeb 2008-08-07T05:00:11Z 2008-08-07T05:00:11Z

Right "Then you reported (February 5, 2008 - 12:28 PM): "In November 2004 a team of astronomers reported the discovery of the first well-confirmed intermediate-mass black hole in our Galaxy, orbiting three light-years from Sagittarius A*. This black hole of 1,300 solar masses is within a cluster of seven stars, possibly the remnant of a massive star cluster that has been stripped down by the Galactic Centre.[5][6] This observation may add support to the idea that supermassive black holes grow by absorbing nearby smaller black holes and stars. "Coordinates (J2000): RA 17h 45m 40.045s Dec. −29.00775 degrees (About 10 degrees to the west of the center of the constellation Sagittarius, towards Scorpius) "Yes that is the Galactic Center I keep mentioning..." " Totally... That IS the Galactic Center... When I say Galactic Center That is What I mean... When I say Galactic Equator... I mean Galactic Equator... When I say The Area Around the Galactic Center... I mean Literally That... Thank you once again Hoopes for Proving my points for me... You are such a big help =) And I am not being satirical there...

Manjushri 2008-08-07T05:00:11Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#75a17f4a-64c1-4ff8-9bb2-a7e1941eecd0 2008-07-07T03:27:31Z 2008-07-07T03:27:31Z

"I am constantly saying Galactic Equator..." No, you're not. You're constantly saying "Galactic Center". If you meant Galactic Equator, then that's what you should have said. "I never say the center of the body of the sun occult the exact location of the galactic center..." Well, maybe not in so many words. What you said (February 4, 2008 - 3:32 PM) was, "what is meant by 'passes through' is a little vague. It actually Aligns with the Galactic Center, Earth, and the Anti-Center which is in the Pleiades star cluster... The sun itself does pass through various parts of the area around the Galactic Center more often... But the Alignment with Galactic Center on they day of the Winter Solstice Sun is a cosmic event that only happens once every 25,627..." We quibbled a bit about what you meant by "the Alignment with Galactic Center" . When you said (February 5, 2008 - 11:57 AM), ""The Galactic Alignment is the alignment of the December solstice sun with the Galactic equator." I said (February 5, 2008 - 12:18 PM), "Right. The galactic *equator* (a line) is not the same thing as the Galactic "center" (a point)." Then you reported (February 5, 2008 - 12:28 PM): "In November 2004 a team of astronomers reported the discovery of the first well-confirmed intermediate-mass black hole in our Galaxy, orbiting three light-years from Sagittarius A*. This black hole of 1,300 solar masses is within a cluster of seven stars, possibly the remnant of a massive star cluster that has been stripped down by the Galactic Centre.[5][6] This observation may add support to the idea that supermassive black holes grow by absorbing nearby smaller black holes and stars. "Coordinates (J2000): RA 17h 45m 40.045s Dec. −29.00775 degrees (About 10 degrees to the west of the center of the constellation Sagittarius, towards Scorpius) "Yes that is the Galactic Center I keep mentioning..." Read your own words, Manjushri. You're inventing realities that never existed. That's consistent with your other mythmaking.

Hoopes 2008-07-07T03:27:31Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#639a1da1-4c5d-4f37-9a19-60ef54bec766 2008-07-07T02:25:20Z 2008-07-07T02:25:20Z

I mean how much more blunt can I say it... But yet he continued on... Like a Blind Bull.

Manjushri 2008-07-07T02:25:20Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#89a94436-1b38-41ca-9a91-1753343a2b7f 2008-07-07T02:11:03Z 2008-07-07T02:11:03Z

Damn... I just checked it all again... Every Fact Stated is Correct... Your understanding Of what I was Saying... Was obviously Skewed... But that is not new... Now is it Hoopes?

Manjushri 2008-07-07T02:11:03Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#037ec968-7d1b-46ad-98e8-11cf948e5736 2008-07-07T02:09:02Z 2008-07-07T02:09:02Z

Funny... See how is thinks he is telling me something I had be saying the whole time... Really I love you Hoopes... You make me laugh so much man.

Manjushri 2008-07-07T02:09:02Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#855ac6fd-0537-4476-b939-ba2a42b098d0 2008-07-07T02:07:29Z 2008-07-07T02:07:29Z

Once again... He never proved me wrong... and never even tried to see he was arguing pointlessly because he was actually supporting what I was saying... Though, Obviously he never realized this...

Manjushri 2008-07-07T02:07:29Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7c387f10-90c2-4989-a765-374687fb0323 2008-07-07T02:05:10Z 2008-07-07T02:05:10Z

As you see HERE... I am constantly saying Galactic Equator... I never say the center of the body of the sun occult the exact location of the galactic center AKA SGR A*... I have pictures in my profile showing exactly what I mean... as seen from Eugene OR and several other locations... you can go to Starry Night and use their free online software and see for your self...

Manjushri 2008-07-07T02:05:10Z roger http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2bf610f5-d224-4f1c-b3fc-59363f83741a 2008-04-18T03:00:49Z 2008-04-18T03:00:49Z

according to the official version/report... but the body part/parts should have been found in shanksville, in or around the small little crater. the passengers caused the plane to crash, in one neat little package. so here i am thinking: h is playing games, again i did not read the date of the article till later: sept 13, 2001=2 days after the crash or loss of 93 >>>ie: controlled demolition " I don't know much about that at all, though I've witnessed some spectacular demolitions Watching a whole building come down is a huge rush, though I do find it painful to consider the destruction of such big parts of history and human lives. Historic preservation is a really important issue for me.<<< by simple VISUAL OBSERVATION...later per chance you can see the wtc7... it is VERY VERY hard to believe, cuz if that is controlled demolition in your mind, the official version of 9-11 is a fraud, a hoax interesting where you found your article... sheds even better light on the...truth.

roger 2008-04-18T03:00:49Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e0abbd62-6624-4119-a828-fb78d450d18e 2008-04-17T23:16:10Z 2008-04-17T23:16:10Z

"find flight 93, even one piece, one drop of blood" Human remains recovered in Somerset By Robin Acton and Richard Gazarik TRIBUNE-REVIEW Thursday, September 13, 2001 http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_47536.html

Hoopes 2008-04-17T23:16:10Z roger http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#4017cf0e-b769-4a14-9241-d01f18caf8ad 2008-04-17T22:47:48Z 2008-04-17T22:47:48Z

nobody knows who the real planners were. all we have is factual VISUAL EVIDENCE the with true scientific analysis by professionals in the field...too many to name micronized dust, best said: talc powder if the mouthpieces are paid or kept in line by whatever means necessary, and you want and/or need to believe because this is beyond sanity, rationalization etc find flight 93, even one piece, one drop of blood, luggage, etc but the experts, from the government have told you slop, and you have slurped it up i know it is much easier and painless not to see the reality, thus believe that this is EVEN POSSIBLE beyond god; that was simple. but for you, what lies beyond: spirituality... do jet engines disappear when they hit the ground? and jet fuel would not vaporise them cuz how would they fly? look at real airplane crashes this is getting to be lunacy; trying to awaken and educate? the stubborn, the stupid, and the ignore/ant... but that is where i too came from especially in/health.

roger 2008-04-17T22:47:48Z davidsjelly http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#28148c4a-f374-4485-834c-66b487261623 2008-04-16T15:29:09Z 2008-04-16T15:29:09Z

and speaking of building seven.... i ask this question a never get a straight answer... can any of you who believe these buildings were demolished explain why the planners did three buildings with only two planes?

davidsjelly 2008-04-16T15:29:09Z Rocky http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#a72fab59-5256-43d3-9ee3-cadbd37ea3d6 2008-04-16T14:34:45Z 2008-04-16T14:34:45Z

This thread is too long with over 240 posts in it now. I will be posting about zeitgeist part 1, (I'm not interested in commenting about parts 2 or 3) and addressing comments in this new thread from now on - "ZEITGEIST, Part 1" Debunked? NOT! http://2012.tribe.net/thread/6cbcc243-8b3d-48dd-b566-23e4e5ef21e3 ;

Rocky 2008-04-16T14:34:45Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#981ba24c-7475-438c-a28f-cc4fa8772e0a 2008-04-16T14:23:15Z 2008-04-16T14:23:15Z

"This is a fallacy." Actually not. Argument from ignorance is a fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance

Hoopes 2008-04-16T14:23:15Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#01f107c1-7952-472d-b90c-83977cc074dd 2008-04-16T14:21:11Z 2008-04-16T14:21:11Z

"i would suppose you have a handful or more of undergraduate degrees was economics one of them?" Nope. I have only one undergraduate degree and I have never taken a course in economics. I'll have to take a pass on the Fed for now. Maybe later. "i know that everyone cannot know lots about everything. ?ie: controlled demolition " I don't know much about that at all, though I've witnessed some spectacular demolitions Watching a whole building come down is a huge rush, though I do find it painful to consider the destruction of such big parts of history and human lives. Historic preservation is a really important issue for me. I suspect that there are not a lot of people with sufficient experience to take down something like WTC7, especially in secret. Controlled demolition is probably one of those things that must be learned through extensive, hands-on participation. Buildings of this size don't come down every day. If this thing were planned with a coverup in mind, one would have to get not only experienced building demolishers, but ones who would be willing to risk their lives and careers to participate in something like this. Who are the prime suspects? Are there any that may have disappeared into something like a witness protection program? I assume that experienced personnel would have insisted on working with the equipment and materials with which they were most familiar. What companies had access to this? It seems that a coverup of this kind would have had to included a wide range of people, perhaps including secretaries, warehouse personnel, family members, etc. Could they all have gone into hiding or have they all "disappeared"? Is there insufficient motivation for *anyone* to have leaked even just a few clues about what they were doing? Not even a *tiny* bit of blackmail? That seems hard to believe.

Hoopes 2008-04-16T14:21:11Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#9a31c062-fbb7-4e1b-adbe-37233d92c8cf 2008-04-16T09:19:32Z 2008-04-16T09:19:32Z

Chopper, whether or not jesus is a real historical figure is a small part of zeitgeist. I don't much give a damn if he was or wasn't, and don't see how this could ever be proven , one way or the other. Much of the rest of zeitgeist is a steaming, stinking pile of infoshit though. A hazard to mental health, IMO.

wil 2008-04-16T09:19:32Z Rocky http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#01e7ead3-ac06-4ec0-b667-459efc0efa32 2008-04-16T01:37:18Z 2008-04-16T01:37:18Z

H "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - This is a fallacy. It would be more correct at times to say, Absence of evidence *IS* evidence of absence. H "Your position would be more credible if you could provide me some other examples of fictional inventions from the period in question. Was it a common practice to invent mythological characters based only upon imagination? What are some other examples?" - It has been done long before you were ever born. If you knew about the history of this - there was plenty of imagination involved in the creation of religions however, most of it was based on natural phenomena i.e. the sun, moon, stars, constellations = astrotheology plus, more natural phenomena like rain, wind, thunder, lightning etc, etc. If you want more examples and evidence get these Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm free online videos http://www.truthbeknown.com/videos.html

Rocky 2008-04-16T01:37:18Z roger http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#97e11089-2db3-4b21-b08e-c5d7bf7348d9 2008-04-15T23:02:41Z 2008-04-15T23:02:41Z

h: in some distant thread, you said something about...reality vs imagination kind of rings a bell i would suppose you have a handful or more of undergraduate degrees was economics one of them? what is your take on the federal reserve bank system here in the united states? you know, the feds, as they like to be called that are not even part of the usa government surely, a person of your education would not let that slip by come on now, i know that everyone cannot know lots about everything. ?ie: controlled demolition back to the bank: you know, or must have heard of, the bank that loans us OUR money, and then charges interest that all citizens must pay. heavy price, but for what maybe you can help clarify that for us you are damn good at it, if you choose to be i will get back to jesus shortly; she isn't going anywhere...

roger 2008-04-15T23:02:41Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2f19e0e7-cab5-4213-ad08-2bf2782374d8 2008-04-15T18:41:11Z 2008-04-15T18:41:11Z

"they realize that there is nothing written about Jesus during the time period of his supposed existence" How much is being written about you during the time period of your supposed existence? How much of it will last a century or more? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Your position would be more credible if you could provide me some other examples of fictional inventions from the period in question. Was it a common practice to invent mythological characters based only upon imagination? What are some other examples?

Hoopes 2008-04-15T18:41:11Z roger http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#63ee9251-0893-45f7-bca5-e7114d22514e 2008-04-15T18:22:46Z 2008-04-15T18:22:46Z

the essene gospel of peace maybe there was a fake jesus, and could be heavily supported by the FAKE bible and then hidden from most, a real jesus as in the essene gospel of...

roger 2008-04-15T18:22:46Z Rocky http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#fb623876-aef1-45ec-9da3-b6191ebd37e2 2008-04-15T17:47:14Z 2008-04-15T17:42:44Z

Hoopes "Extreme positions are always widely subjected to ridicule and derision, as they shold be." - And yet, "there continues to be no credible evidence for the existence of the gospel character named Jesus Christ" - so from where I stand, claiming he existed with no evidence whatsoever is the extreme position. It's time to come clean on this after 2,000 years. Even the earliest Christians never had evidence of Jesus - because it has never existed. Enjoy the, "Who Was Jesus? Fingerprints of The Christ" - VIDEO http://www.livevideo.com/video/1FDF3828A6ED4FFA99BCBA6AF9D3710F/who-was-jesus-fingerprints-of.aspx Hoopes "It seems intuitively likely that there was a real person at the core of the mythology, though it's also clear that there were many embellishments added for specific historical purposes." - This sounds like euphoria to me. There simply is no core to this onion. "A composite of 20 different people is still no one" -- Gerald Massey. It's sounds like you've taken the Evermist position where you believe a real person existed and extraordinary attributes were added later. If one does a scientific investigation they realize that there is nothing written about Jesus during the time period of his supposed existence. Plus, checking beyond just the 1st & 2nd centuries one learns that most of the mythological parallels to Jesus existed long before Christianity leading all the way back to Egyptians religions at least and other religions as well. This is the Mythicist position.

Rocky 2008-04-15T17:42:44Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#028b7304-9d1b-4549-ac4f-22713a6f58f5 2008-04-15T17:09:12Z 2008-04-15T17:09:12Z

"as mythical a character as the Greek god Hercules" How do you know that Hercules (or Herakles) is not based on a real hero from Etruscan times or earlier? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules Sure, there's a great deal of mythology that grows up around charismatic figures, but that doesn't mean that Elvis and Marilyn were not real people. (Can you imagine what *their* mythology will be like in another 500 years or more?) There are some good indications that Odysseus was also based on an actual person, though his story has certainly been embellished with a lot of fantastical details. http://www.odysseus-unbound.org We could talk about lots of other figures who have become mythologized: Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, etc. in the Bible; Siddhartha Gautama, a.k.a. the Buddha (who probably wasn't actually born from his mother's side); Mohammed, denial of whose story can get you killed these days; Quetzalcoatl or Viracocha; Pachakuti; and even George Washington and Benjamin Franklin. I think there's abundant evidence to show that it is extremely rare for a culture hero to be fabricated whole cloth from pure imagination, or for every mythological detail to be historically accurate. Saying "there continues to be no credible evidence for the existence of the gospel character named Jesus Christ" seems to me to be an extreme position. It seems intuitively likely that there was a real person at the core of the mythology, though it's also clear that there were many embellishments added for specific historical purposes. "While people who take such a position are widely subjected to ridicule and derision..." Extreme positions are always widely subjected to ridicule and derision, as they shold be.

Hoopes 2008-04-15T17:09:12Z davidsjelly http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#d38d14bb-7e41-4e5e-a9a4-3d1b6a310428 2008-04-15T15:25:30Z 2008-04-15T15:25:30Z

notice how this video is set up perfectly to cut off any action. first make a case about religion that most people can agree upon despite the sometimes shaky 'facts' then make a case for something so outrageous and full of holes that it will turn off the majority of people. and then make a case for something reasonably true and possibly actionable if only enough people understood. unfortunately... the second part has already turned off most people who might have otherwise payed more attention. disinformation 101: mix in just enough obvious bullshit to throw off the average schmo.

davidsjelly 2008-04-15T15:25:30Z Rocky http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#202dcf6d-1598-48a5-996f-fb193df2d5f2 2008-04-15T14:18:57Z 2008-04-15T14:18:57Z

"ZEITGEIST, Part 1" Debunked? NOT! "...When the subject matter is examined scientifically and in depth, there continues to be no credible evidence for the existence of the gospel character named Jesus Christ, and the preponderance of scientific evidence points to him being as mythical a character as the Greek god Hercules and the many other deities of the Roman Empire of the time. While people who take such a position are widely subjected to ridicule and derision, based on all the evidence this conclusion is demonstrably the most reasonable and logical. Furthermore, in a truthful world where we should not be compelled to reside in BLIND BELIEF, this perspective should be allowed to exist without its holders being derogated and abused, as well as dunned with impossibly high standards of proof, while claims in the religious arena require little to no proof at all! " http://tbknews.blogspot.com/2008/04/zeitgeist-refuted-not.html "The Companion Guide to ZEITGEIST Part 1" E-Book http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeist.html Zeitgeist part 1 video toward the bottom - http://www.truthbeknown.com/videos.html Pass it around ;

Rocky 2008-04-15T14:18:57Z Steven http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e100dea0-5858-46fc-92ca-0b56c8e09595 2008-02-11T05:15:44Z 2008-02-11T05:15:44Z

"The "Galactic Alignment" he writes about is not something that occurs only once at a specific time on a specific day. It is not something that occurs only once in 26,000 years. It occurs every year over a 36-year period (from 1980 to 2016) centered on 1998 (not 2012!) and including 18 years on either side of that. This 36-year period represents the length of time that the winter solstice sun will be intersecting the presumed "equator" of the Milky Way galaxy (which itself is actually imprecisely known). The intersection happens *every year* during that 36-year period." Good discussion John. Looking at this 36 year window using the lens of numerology, the nine year cycle is front and center. 36 (3+6=9) 18 (1+8=9), 1980 (1+9+8=18=9), 2016 (2+0+1+6=9). When you factor in the Millennium, 1998 (1+9+9+8=27=9) is the last nine year cycle of the old Millennium and 2016 is first complete nine year cycle of the New Millennium. 2011/2012 sits at the midpoint of that first nine year cycle of the New Millennium. 2012 is a five year which means change in the numerological system. The date of 12/21/2012 reduces to an eleven which means illumination. The solstice occurs exactly at 11:11 am GMT which is why it stands as a point of singularity IMO. I do agree that this 36 year period signifies the 2012 era and that each nine year cycle has produced it's own unique signature or vibe contributing to the shift which I think is best described in Jay Weidner's essay on 2012 at http://www.jayweidner.com/2012Topology.html

Steven 2008-02-11T05:15:44Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#8fa40892-6c5d-4c24-a678-cc0c668dd143 2008-02-11T03:13:20Z 2008-02-11T03:13:20Z

Aye, I can agree with that... In Fact.... The closest the Sun gets to Srg A* is on DEC 18, 2012 when it Gets to RA 17H 45M, DEC -23°... As Far As I know... It NEVER EVER reaches RA 17H 45M, DEC -29°... But I could be wrong...But do remember the Sun 'dies' for 3 days on Solstice... Which is the meaning of the word... Sun Standing Still... On The morning of Dec 18 it has not yet crossed the Galactic Equator, and by DEC 21 It has passed thru the Galactic Equator.

Manjushri 2008-02-11T03:13:20Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#b710d4c8-06df-40eb-b159-7e52de453dd7 2008-02-11T02:28:02Z 2008-02-11T02:28:02Z

Not to quibble, but just to make sure we're perfectly clear on just one apple: The Sun does not occult Sagittarius A*, a.k.a the black hole at the center of the Milky Way, a.k.a. the Galactic Center, at any time on December 21, 2012. Are you cool with that? If not, I can explain it again.

Hoopes 2008-02-11T02:28:02Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2062bee5-023d-47db-aafe-b47a63e666be 2008-02-11T02:24:23Z 2008-02-11T02:24:23Z

Okay, you're right. You never said he did, but he didn't.

Hoopes 2008-02-11T02:24:23Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7570036a-7836-49b2-8329-3c0d563abdb8 2008-02-11T02:24:10Z 2008-02-11T02:24:10Z

lol...not my choice I would rather compare to things that are the same...not two different things or sometime three, in this case.

Manjushri 2008-02-11T02:24:10Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#093091f5-ec6d-48a1-8eff-7745c9d7b777 2008-02-11T02:22:52Z 2008-02-11T02:22:52Z

I have reread everything I have posted...everyone here can... NO WHERE Did I say HE SAID ANYTHING... I quoted him directly from his site and said he agrees with me, which he does... YOU ASSUME what I think...but have yet to ask... I thought I was Clear... but obviously not because of the comparing Apples and Oranges you keep doing...

Manjushri 2008-02-11T02:22:52Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#63314bfe-7f81-4688-82ee-f3f0aa93debc 2008-02-11T02:21:34Z 2008-02-11T02:21:34Z

Neither found nor fond. Let's stick with apples or oranges.

Hoopes 2008-02-11T02:21:34Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7e10f365-fcf1-47ad-85fa-e9a97c96d4ef 2008-02-11T02:19:42Z 2008-02-11T02:19:42Z

I never said he did

Manjushri 2008-02-11T02:19:42Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#9fc5c019-ff0a-4188-baec-6315c4771eae 2008-02-11T02:19:05Z 2008-02-11T02:19:05Z

"All I have said has been correct..." No way, man. No. That's not right. You were correct in saying that John Major Jenkins never said that the Sun occults Sagittarius A* on December 21, 2012. You are lying if you claim that *you* never said that. If you still say that it will, you are just being difficult.

Hoopes 2008-02-11T02:19:05Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e2f740d3-2291-495b-af7c-ce4ab36bcf4f 2008-02-11T02:12:47Z 2008-02-11T02:12:47Z

and you seem to be found of comparing apples and oranges.

Manjushri 2008-02-11T02:12:47Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#b796fec2-a86a-4c2e-851b-20ef2b7704a2 2008-02-11T02:12:02Z 2008-02-11T02:12:02Z

What are you talking about? All I have said has been correct... Weather you understand it or not... I may have mis-spoken once or twice...as you have yourself...Once again though... I still see no contradiction... perhaps you are asking the wrong questions.

Manjushri 2008-02-11T02:12:02Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ba3a8dc8-d45d-4788-a47b-480c26cade28 2008-02-11T00:29:27Z 2008-02-11T00:29:27Z

Oops! My bad. (See, I make mistakes, too!) You wrote, "I never said that he had said..." but I responded as if you had written, "I never said..." For the record, I never said that you said that he said... I just wanted to get it on the record (from myself and him) that he had never said that the Sun occulted Sagittarius A* (which, as you yourself said, is the Galactic Center) on December 21, 2012.

Hoopes 2008-02-11T00:29:27Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#bf725807-9af0-4810-ba28-a7598a66480c 2008-02-11T00:25:37Z 2008-02-11T00:25:37Z

Not in those words, my friend, but on Sun, February 3, 2008 - 5:03 PM (one week ago) you did say, "On that day the Winter Solstice Sun will pass through the Galactic Center, an event that only happens once every 25,627." Then on Mon, February 4, 2008 - 3:32 PM you said, "what is meant by 'passes through' is a little vague. It actually Aligns with the Galactic Center" Then on February 5, 2008 - 12:28 PM you wrote: "In November 2004 a team of astronomers reported the discovery of the first well-confirmed intermediate-mass black hole in our Galaxy, orbiting three light-years from Sagittarius A*. This black hole of 1,300 solar masses is within a cluster of seven stars, possibly the remnant of a massive star cluster that has been stripped down by the Galactic Centre.[5][6] This observation may add support to the idea that supermassive black holes grow by absorbing nearby smaller black holes and stars. "Coordinates (J2000): RA 17h 45m 40.045s Dec. −29.00775 degrees (About 10 degrees to the west of the center of the constellation Sagittarius, towards Scorpius) "Yes that is the Galactic Center I keep mentioning..." When I tried to pin you down on what you were saying, on Tue, February 5, 2008 - 5:04 PM you wrote, "I am talking about an alignment not a conjunction... Actually when the sun passes over the Galactic Center it is called an Occultation." These posts (and much more) are in this thread for anyone to see. Rather than denying what you actually said, why don't you just fess up and just admit that you were mistaken? There's no shame in that and I won't think any less of you for it. I don't think anyone would (we ALL make mistakes.) However, being untruthful and dishonest risks your credibility. Why do that?

Hoopes 2008-02-11T00:25:37Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#8e6b99f4-7388-468e-8a0b-1d640be8aee3 2008-02-10T20:03:53Z 2008-02-10T20:03:53Z

Or be Occulted for that matter, =p

Manjushri 2008-02-10T20:03:53Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#1894eaba-f01e-4b89-ba2b-08410ab19844 2008-02-10T20:03:08Z 2008-02-10T20:03:08Z

Right...I never said that he had said Srg A* or Sagittarius A would Occult anything... Apples and Oranges...(BTW, once again these are two different Things, "Srg A*"(The actual Black Hole) is located in the Area Called "Sagittarius A" ( large Gas Cloud with lots of stars), see my picture in my profile from NASA)...

Manjushri 2008-02-10T20:03:08Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#877fddce-ee44-4dd9-add8-22318d630482 2008-02-10T04:14:58Z 2008-02-10T04:14:58Z

Good question. I'm personally skeptical that there is any astronomical significance to December 21, 2012, but I'm open to being persuaded that there is. The 26,000-year period is known as the Precession of the Equinoxes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_%28astronomy%29 Greek astronomers had figured it out by the 2nd century BC. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the ancient Maya had discovered it, too. We still have a lot to learn about Maya astrology. It was extremely complex, but nothing that was beyond their own intellectual capabilities (no ETs necessary).

Hoopes 2008-02-10T04:14:58Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#6246189c-8c81-4f29-942a-983484a294ab 2008-02-10T01:33:05Z 2008-02-10T01:33:05Z

Thanks for that clear explanation Hoopes. So, is their any astronomical significance of this date and in in terms of the maya calendar in your opinion. ? And what's with the 26 000 years?

$item.owner.firstName 2008-02-10T01:33:05Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e0bddca6-e121-416b-b1d5-ac428701746b 2008-02-09T16:13:32Z 2008-02-09T16:13:32Z

One of the implications of this lack of precision is that the ancient Maya did not have any knowledge of the location of the black hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy, something ETs should have been able tell them. It therefore seems unlikely that they were in communication with extraterrestrial intelligence. Assertions that they were are not supported by claims of a precise Galactic Alignment on December 21, 2012.

Hoopes 2008-02-09T16:13:32Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#3eb10c27-3237-4a9e-b207-08fcbc24228d 2008-02-09T15:37:04Z 2008-02-09T15:37:04Z

"OK - what the f does this mean?" It's explained very clearly on JMJ's website (click on the link from the main page "What is the Galactic Alighnment?"): http://alignment2012.com/whatisGA.htm "The Galactic Alignment is the alignment of the December solstice sun with the Galactic equator. This alignment occurs as a result of the precession of the equinoxes. "Precession is caused by the earth wobbling very slowly on its axis and shifts the position of the equinoxes and solstices one degree every 71.5 years. Because the sun is one-half of a degree wide, it will take the December solstice sun 36 years to precess through the Galactic equator (see diagram below). "The precise alignment of the solstice point (the precise center-point of the body of the sun as viewed from earth) with the Galactic equator was calculated to occur in 1998 (Jean Meeus, Mathematical Astronomy Morsels, 1997). "Thus, the Galactic Alignment "zone" is 1998 +/- 18 years = 1980 - 2016. This is 'era-2012.'" The "Galactic Alignment" he writes about is not something that occurs only once at a specific time on a specific day. It is not something that occurs only once in 26,000 years. It occurs every year over a 36-year period (from 1980 to 2016) centered on 1998 (not 2012!) and including 18 years on either side of that. This 36-year period represents the length of time that the winter solstice sun will be intersecting the presumed "equator" of the Milky Way galaxy (which itself is actually imprecisely known). The intersection happens *every year* during that 36-year period. To reiterate my main point, a MYTH that is often repeated in discussions of 2012 is the assertion that the sun will line up with (or "occult") the precise location of the black hole at the center of the Milky Way galaxy (i.e. Sagittarius A*) on December 21, 2012. That will NOT happen, and John Major Jenkins has never claimed that it would. The position of the sun and the precise center of the galaxy will be about 6 degrees apart (about 12 times the apparent width of the sun as seen from earth) throughout the day on December 21, 2012.

Hoopes 2008-02-09T15:37:04Z Larry http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f9919779-b9ba-4ff2-8aed-86bc4d4f2a3c 2008-02-09T14:26:51Z 2008-02-09T14:26:51Z

39, I agree, it's pretty self-evident. The only way it becomes murky is if you take government and corporate propaganda seriously and believe that the system is in place for our benefit.

Larry 2008-02-09T14:26:51Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#672a0762-7649-4511-9784-9b6251aa14d8 2008-02-09T13:19:24Z 2008-02-09T13:19:24Z

Geez - check it out : http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

$item.owner.firstName 2008-02-09T13:19:24Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#8854f247-3fd8-4b8d-862d-b0098b0c58d2 2008-02-09T13:16:35Z 2008-02-09T13:16:35Z

Of course the people that own the country want to run it - what's so hard to understands about that

$item.owner.firstName 2008-02-09T13:16:35Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#64f88563-5a71-45c6-94f4-459a64e68c48 2008-02-09T13:08:56Z 2008-02-09T13:08:56Z

" But if asked, I will always emphasize that an alignment zone of 36 years is a good way to think about the alignment" OK - what the f does this mean?

$item.owner.firstName 2008-02-09T13:08:56Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#45bc882b-959c-46be-9096-b01b7f63067d 2008-02-09T13:00:51Z 2008-02-09T13:00:51Z

Larry, Chomsky says in one of his Manufacturing Consent vids that ad lib "The people that own the country want to run it." I've never found anything to disagree with this, either. Why wouldn't they? I would if if I owned the country. Lets all get real. 1% own nearly Nearly 40% of the financial wealth. That's a Fact.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-02-09T13:00:51Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#5a534e44-a14e-4478-b5f6-62412774fe5f 2008-02-09T05:53:18Z 2008-02-09T05:53:18Z

Manjushri, I wrote an email to John Major Jenkins yesterday asking whether he'd ever claimed there would be a precise occultation of Sagittarius A* by the Sun on December 21, 2012. He answered that he had not and gave me permission to post this response to my query that he sent this evening: From: John Major Jenkins Sent: Fri 2/8/2008 10:29 PM To: Hoopes, John W Subject: RE: Occultation John H., Yes, I welcome you reiterating my clarifications around this. I do not advocate the importance, or presence, of a precise conjunction with the galactic center. It's not even necessary in terms of providing a compelling enough situation to justify the reconstruction of a "galactic alignment cosmology" that I document and present. The perception of, or need for, precision seems to me to be more of a projection of modern thinkers who assume that some specific day is going to be mystically transformative. We may make a given day so, but it's not a necessary premise or requirement of my alignment theory. One of the most common misapprehensions occurs in the paraphrasing of my work in a way that inappropriately emphasizes precision. The problem is complexified by my own occasional use of generalized terminology, especially when speaking to a general public audience, where the careful nuanced caveats that are an important part of the discussion are simply left out for expediency in expressing the basic "galactic alignment" idea. This makes for difficulties later on, when such a generalized phrasing may be quoted in a context where a higher level of clarity on the details is desired. It then becomes a debate around "you said this here." At Decade #___ of one's career, any number of conflicting statements might be garnered from a huge corpus of written and spoken statements. But if asked, I will always emphasize that an alignment zone of 36 years is a good way to think about the alignment. John Major Jenkins http://alignment2012.com

Hoopes 2008-02-09T05:53:18Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#285bb8e5-5494-4d03-a5b2-f8ffe96a0881 2008-02-09T03:00:33Z 2008-02-09T03:00:33Z

Manjushri, did you make the graph?

Hoopes 2008-02-09T03:00:33Z Larry http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#8b443bd6-83db-4675-a641-8d6e32f2938a 2008-02-08T16:19:38Z 2008-02-08T16:19:38Z

Elo, I remember Noam Chomsky saying that the power elite are not really a conspiracy, just a bunch of people who all think the same way and have the same interests. In the end, it comes down to semantics. Some people get attached to the idea of a conspiracy; others use it as a way to discredit unpopular ideas. Regarding the issues of food and agriculture, a good book I recently read is Deep Economy, by Bill McKibben. He talks about how unsustainable the present model of food distribution is, with nations importing and exporting food that they could far more economically consume themselves. He gives many good examples, both in America and third world countries, of innovative local food production systems. For example, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, combined with a U.S. embargo, Cuba was essentially cut off from the world and was forced to resort to growing its own food. They came up with a very efficient kind of capitalist/socialist blend of community agriculture. And in the states, farmers markets and CSA's are quickly growing. These are models of how people at the grassroots level can "subvert" the hegemony of the corporate/governmental global system.

Larry 2008-02-08T16:19:38Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#bec67139-effc-4351-9575-3002a36e1f68 2008-02-08T10:31:28Z 2008-02-08T10:31:28Z

ok all please do check out this short interview between Namoi Klien and Alan Greenspan, i think it says it all really, this could nicely sum up what is going wrong at the top, to me Klien easily gets the upperhand of Greenspand and shows that effectivly the most powerful economy in the world is steadily slipping into Indonesia style corruption - http://www.naomiklein.org/video-audio/crony-capitalism

Elo 2008-02-08T10:31:28Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#3a062917-7cd0-4884-bf3b-9a3d4bc1942d 2008-02-08T10:04:54Z 2008-02-08T10:04:54Z

yes this is true Larry. I think the whole - conspiracy or not conspiracy thing is really clouding the issue here, there is massive self interest goes on especialy in America. I saw this when i reserached the media system in America, where the head of the FCC (i think thats the right initals for the people who regulate media) are opointed by the government to tow the line of the big corporate advertisers. If there chairman goes against government and corporate interestes he is sacked, but this very rarely happens as he is carefuly chosen by the government. Policy is collectivly agreed between suposedly competive media companies in an anual meeting in Idaho, the lobbyiest of these companies then meet up with the government big guys, and policy is mutaly agreed this way, its negotiated as to whats in both government and corporate interests, not whats in the general public interests. A good example was when low power FM radio technology first came in, giving the power for very small operators to set up due to low costs. However the big media giants who normaly use the public line of "no regulation, keep a free market to keep a free media" in reality do not belive this at all, the massivly lobbied government to block the majorty of new liscence applications to block the new competiton. Government towed the line of the corporates, many of who contribute to the governments funding for campaigns etc. Im sure this kind of thing goes on with GM and many other things also. Some of the stories i read in this book "trouble with the media" were quite shocking, like a TV editor being forced to sack a journalist by news intenrational because he exposed additives in the milk that were producing luckimia in children. The big food company threatened murdoch they would pull there advertising which is why the journalist ultimaly got sacked even though the story was true. It really points to Niomi Klien being right about the free market gone nuts, so liberal now that big companies have all the power, and places like Iraq collosal amount of contracts being awarded to private companies that are "in" with government. You know the whole "homeland security" industry that has spring up in america is worth over $200 billion a year, as Klien says this is something on the scale of the .com's but its contracts just been dished out to a market that is governemnt created. This really corobarates what Norena Hertz says about third world poverty being massivly exasabrated by de-regulation of the internatinal lending markets, and Norean Hertz credentails are second to non, Phd Cambridge proffesor, who has also worked "on the other side" ie for the world bank and imf. aparantly the deomcrats arnt that much better, they just say things niceer. Im no expert on all this but one thing is obvious, big business has got way to strong a hand in America now and its causing serious problems now not only in your own country but also in the world - Iraq, non action on global warming, etc etc. Conspiracy ? Id say more just a lets grab what we can and if your celver enough as to what you say to the media you can get away with it attitude. A disregard for the wider good and social good. Yes I completly agree with you Larry this whole conspiracy non conspiracy is massivly clouding real issues goinng down here. Lets talk specific issues not vauge thoeries either proposing conspiracy or against it. I keep saying ive had it with poltics though I'm more interested in cultral change, but u guys are geting me hooked to this debate, argggh

Elo 2008-02-08T10:04:54Z Larry http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#6418e9f4-35d8-4dde-9343-b19dfa389e12 2008-02-08T04:22:09Z 2008-02-08T04:22:09Z

If you think the FDA, EPA, and USDA is out to getcha, then by all means eat only organic foods. Here in America, we're all elite bankers compared to the people of third world countries. So be picky, and dance about it, you've got that luxury. But don't tell the billions of people in this world without food that they shouldn't be eating anything but organic food. >> It's not a question of them being out to get anyone. Have you ever heard of special interests? You seem to think by constantly repeating the words "conspiracy theory" to anything that questions conventional wisdom you are discrediting it, but it's a basic fact of life today that large corporations strongly influence public policy. You don't have to be part of the lunatic fringe to see links between agribusiness and the USDA and between pharmaceutical companies and FDA policy -in fact you pretty much have to be willfully blind not to see the links.

Larry 2008-02-08T04:22:09Z davidsjelly http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2fcb6d7f-9a3f-487a-a13b-c88e3ce8e474 2008-02-08T04:06:38Z 2008-02-08T04:06:38Z

amazing Light Liv~!

davidsjelly 2008-02-08T04:06:38Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#cf9f915c-9156-4626-a058-c4243e938e6c 2008-02-08T00:36:52Z 2008-02-08T00:36:52Z

I think everyone agrees that it is better to eat organic food. It tastes better, is more nutritious, and better for the environment. It is also more expensive. There is a reason for this. It is harder to produce. I raised organic vegetables commercially for many years, and i will attest that it is true that it takes more knowledge, attention, time and work to farm organically ( broadly speaking, and hastening to add that it is well worth the extra effort.....if you can afford it.) Liv is saying that it is better to eat non organic food than to have nothing to eat at all. The question is whether or not world agricultural production would fall drastically if there were a sudden changeover to only using organic methods of farming. I think this a valid and complicated question. As a long time farmer, i do not see organic and non organic as black and white. If a field is too poor to support a green manure crop, for instance, it might be best to use some chemical fertilizer to kick start the cycle. I certainly do not think of chemical fertilizer as poison. It is just nutrients in elemental form. That is not poison and the plants certainly don't think so either!!! Pesticides, on the other hand, are poison. The green revolution also relied heavily on new and higher yielding crop varieties. Now we are seeing that a lot of the ancient native varieties had virtues, such as being more finely attuned to local conditions and weather cycles, that were not at first noticed and there is a lot of attention currently being paid to traditional native crops. These are steps in a process of our coming to understand complicated systems. Dogmatism does not help in coming to understand complex systems.

wil 2008-02-08T00:36:52Z @leksonder http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#23ae6feb-2f23-4fde-af18-68605e284071 2008-02-07T23:49:08Z 2008-02-07T23:49:08Z

I can go along with most of this text, however the closing remark: "don't tell the billions of people in this world without food that they shouldn't be eating anything but organic food" seems a bit radical. Given the choice to have organic produce vs. not have it, I beg to differ. The natural tastes of "real" food is significantly better since organic foods have no toxic chemicals in them.

@leksonder 2008-02-07T23:49:08Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ebc1ef20-a322-43db-84ef-71ec24af7028 2008-02-07T23:40:22Z 2008-02-07T23:40:22Z

Very well said, Liv. The world is not black or white as it appears those still using a dualistic OS. It is not even black AND white. The world is the world, in all it's brilliant colors. I agree with terrance mckenna about conspiracies. http://www.megavideo.com/?v=E0ETJWDI

wil 2008-02-07T23:40:22Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f2996e81-58e3-4ee0-9b6b-dd09fb3aaa32 2008-02-07T23:01:51Z 2008-02-07T23:01:51Z

Bravo! clapclapclapclapclapclapclapclapclap You are awesome, Liv. Thanks for taking the time to say what needs to be said.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T23:01:51Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#214839c5-bce0-44db-a06f-a817c7206f79 2008-02-07T21:14:20Z 2008-02-07T21:14:20Z

Yes Psi, I work for Monsanto, and apparently by public opinion here, I'm also a Banker, and I work for the government, and I'm an under cover agent trying to pollute everyone's mind. The truth is, I don't stand to gain a single thing from these discussions. Except maybe gain some perspective. Which I don't intend to sell for a profit. Also if you read through the debates Elo and I had, you'd see that I don't approve of input-intensive farming going on. "I do believe we should stop giving the man a fish, and that we should start teaching him how to fish. " - this is straight from my post. Its not right to make these countries dependent on companies that profit from their need for genetically modified foods. I think there needs to be a balance, that international, independent, non profit based organizations should be educating locals about advanced agricultural techniques and technologies, and that GM seeds and plants can be part of that contribution until the provided education can be applied to sustain themselves. "America is not the candidate to take the reigns when it comes to developing these technologies. It should be an international effort, on the part of nationally independent science groups... Free aid, no strings attached." - Liv Also, the magic thing about seeds is that when they grow into plants, those plants make more seeds. In the 1960's it was believed that India as a nation would face mass starvation by the 80's because its crops would not yield nearly enough to feed everyone. The rate of population growth was vastly exceeding harvest yields, and there was no way the country would become self sufficient in food. So in '66 after agricultural scientists showed the country the highest yields to date using hybrid wheat, India purchased the import of thousands of tons of these seeds. The result of which is not ruined, infertile, or salinated land, but dramatic increases in crop yields, which provided more than enough seed to replant all their wheat lands. By 74 India was entirely self sufficient in grain production, and by 2000 they were growing record breaking amounts. When projections said they'd all be starving by 1980. And as a result of innovations like this one, India's food production steadily out paces population growth. Oh, and because the existing crops became high yield, it prevented millions of acres of virgin land from being converted into farm land. So yes... there was an initial purchase and import of technology and seeds. But with the close participation of scientists, India eventually got the education and the resources to develop their own farming technologies. They managed to avoid starvation and exploitation. And maybe I'm not an agricultural scientist, and I don't know the finite scientific principles of monoculture and polyculture crops, but the 'green revolution' touched India 40 years ago, and their crops aren't suffering. Maybe it works differently in different parts of the world depending on the soil or the pestilence or the conditions that arise. But from what I understand gm plants are meant to be resistant to these things in the first place. But its true, chances are that nothing is going to be 100% monoculture-disaster-proof, but that's why education on the matter is something I feel is important to provide to nations that receive agricultural aid. these are my arguments to show you that I'm not just avoiding the issues brought up in your post. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- this is my argument for why I'm tired of being the villain for implementing a little balance into mix. To be honest, I'm an information technologist. I specialize in the revolution of information access. Part of my difficulty with conspiracy theories and issues as deep and multifaceted as genetically modified food is that all the sources say something different. Some of them are obviously twisted and are easy to see through. Others make good points but then I have to wonder if there isn't something else influencing the research. For example, on the topic of GM foods. A study found that feeding GM potatoes to rats caused high rights of cancer. The nae-sayers had all the material they would ever need to prove that gm foods were bad! But then it turned out that the GM potatoes were modified to include a strain of protein that was KNOWN to cause harm to mammals. That protein just happened to be an easy one to work with for testing purposes in general genetic modification. It was never meant to be put on the market at all. But see, if I had read that report for myself, I might also have come to the conclusion that because a food is gen modified, it causes harm. When the truth was, it caused harm not because it was gen. modified, but because of the specific thing added to it. It was that particular protein causing the problem, not GM in general. But there would have been no way for me to know that. That's true of many studies and sources I'm afraid. Its hard to know what information to trust. Conspiracy theorist hate me when I show them the poor sources they use. (Which they do, sometimes they're paper thin, and its obvious) And believe it or not, debunkers hate me because I suggest that sometimes there are strange things worth digging deeper into , but because an issue isn't entirely accepted by their 'air tight' sources, its total crap to them. In an attempt to improve the health and lengthen the life span of peruvian villagers, health services attempted to introduce a strategy to mothers to boil their drinking water before using it. We know that its because of pathogens in water that can cause illness, but to the peruvians it was nonsense and the attempt to introduce such a simple innovation failed. One woman protested: "How, can microbes survive in water that would drown people? Are they fish? If germs are so small that they cannot be seen or felt, how can they hurt a grown person? There are enough real threats in the world to worry about -- poverty and hunger -- without bothering about tiny animals that one cannot see, hear, touch, or smell." The peruvian villagers had no previous understanding of germs, they had no tools to measure the existence of germs, and there were other threats that they had proof existed to worry about. It kind of reminds me of the debunkers, who are only willing to accept the possibility of what they can already prove or measure. Conspiracy people block out everything I say, Debunkers block out everything I say. Because sometimes I want to argue something in the middle. All because there's this fear of gray. If its not Black "The government is out to get us and we're all being secretly controlled by the elite which is why we should throw out all our technology and do everything completely naturally again forever to save the earth!" or White "There are no conspiracies, there's nothing to be afraid of. The government is not out to get you and regulation is nothing to be afraid of, plus the earth is not dying because there's no agreement among scientists, therefor there's no proof that its happening" Then no body wants to listen... sometimes its a little of both. Sometimes our mammalian predatory nature gets the best of us and we need a giant system of checks and balances that is deep and convoluted to keep any one person or one group from bypassing all of them and becoming too powerful. But that explanation involves a mixing of nature and law, which means its 'wrong'. When the power of love overcomes the love of power we'll have peace. But its written in our genetic code to try and out-do one another. We are predators, we grow larger, faster, smarter, and stronger than our prey, that is how we as a species have been able to get to where we are today. But there is also a part of us which figured out that sometimes mother nature sucks. Earthquakes, tsunamis, meteorites, human nature... and we want to over come it. We want to love one another, not pounce on the weak. We want to build a world resistant to the cruelties of a totally natural world. And yet we cannot escape her. There is no easy answer. Communism is not an easy answer. All organic food is not an easy answer. Democracy is not an easy answer. Genetically modified food is not an easy answer. Repealing the Federal Reserve Act is not an easy answer. Blaming me for using make up or eating fats or working for Monsanto or for doing my research is not an easy answer. It is going to be a struggle full of gray that will mean everyone's got to work hard, and question everything, and it will STILL never be perfect. Question your faith. "Have faith in the power of mother earth, if we treat the earth right it will protect and sustain us!" Well this planet doesn't give a crap about you. She will earthquake you into the ground no matter how much organic food you eat. She will flood and drown you no matter what eco-friendly methods you use. She will storm and freeze your crops no matter how often you recycle. If you want to survive, you'd better not bet on mother nature to protect you. Because sure, she gave birth to mankind, but she'll kill it just as quick, for no reason at all. And question your science. Just because you can't prove something, or never heard the theory before, or some person somewhere said that its not worth the bat of an eyelash, doesn't mean there isn't any truth behind it at all. We as a species don't have all the tools to measure our universe with, and we never will. Our logic is flawed, which means science is too. Science is not a substitute for faith, or hunches, or instinct, because just like god, we made it up to find answers and feel better about our world. We invented time, we invented math, we invented physics and chemistry. And we make up answers using these imperfect tools. And maybe science IS the closest damn thing we have to explaining the world, but science was once a crazy concept. Science can only progress if we're willing to accept and study other crazy concepts. The beauty of science was supposed to be in ideas that grew, not beliefs that were not allowed to be questioned. Not to just reject ideas out of hand. Which is why we need to use all our resources, including the things we 'feel' but can't explain, to help us modify our tools and our procedures. That's how we get ahead in our struggle to survive and to coexist. But you won't hear that in a presidential candidate's speech. Because he or she wants to get elected, and that's not what people want to hear. They don't want to hear that their faith is flawed. They don't want to hear that science is flawed. They want systems in place to make them feel comfortable, that make it seem like there's an easy answer somewhere, but there's just not! The best we as a race can hope to accomplish is a balance. Don't live your life based solely on your faith. Don't live your life based solely on the science. Because looking back on it, they've both been wrong before, and they'll both be wrong again. I'm an information technologist. My job is NOT to give the world access to answers. That's what preachers do. That's what scientists do. But sometimes answers are wrong, and we make risks putting all our chips in one place because we think its the right answer. No, My job is to give the world access to ideas. Ideas can change, ideas can be added to, ideas can be modified. If one idea turns out to be bad, we can work on it or move to the next one. But somehow, despite being fully aware that we are flawed, we create a world where making mistakes is evil. Changing your mind is flip flopping, admitting you might be wrong is weak. We're so consumed with being right, we don't stop to see both sides. Psi, you were so quick to point your finger at me, and so quick to dismiss what I was saying that you didn't even read and see the parts where I agreed with you. Right away you suspected that I had some kind of ulterior motive, and that I worked for the enemy. You won't consider that maybe our best bet for human survival and love for our fellow man is somewhere in the middle of our two opinions. I'm saying "Lets use technology to teach the hungry how to feed themselves, and don't attach any corporate strings to it" But because you're message is closer to "Lets use only natural means to feed the hungry and not attach corporate strings to it" , you seemed to think I was saying "Lets give the hungry people food at the price of slavery!!!" And that's not it at all. Ultimately I want the same things you want, and I'm willing to consider some ideas that are flawed in order to accomplish it. Ideas that can be improved along the way if they're not perfect from the start. But to anyone who thinks they know the black and white answer, everything else is just plain wrong. You're going to go on believing what you already believe. The scientists are going to go on believing what they want to believe and neither of you will listen to the other. And that's the fast track to nowhere. When we can change this, we'll start changing. We won't be perfect, we won't have the answers. But we'll be going somewhere. Somewhere might mean down, and it might mean moving up. But if we're not satisfied with the way things are now, moving in SOME kind of direction is the only hope we've got to change that. ...and I'm spent.

Liv 2008-02-07T21:14:20Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#94e087d3-ee58-47bd-b150-de134c5c4694 2008-02-07T20:53:29Z 2008-02-07T20:53:29Z

Wil isn't defending me, he's simply defending the things he agrees with. I would never want or expect anything else.

Liv 2008-02-07T20:53:29Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2ca25252-eb9b-4138-90ae-c518da8d3206 2008-02-07T20:51:08Z 2008-02-07T20:51:08Z

hm. yeah... pretty much. And I think we pretty much already knew all that anyway.

Liv 2008-02-07T20:51:08Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#594e3743-de9c-4a68-a706-0692305c80c8 2008-02-07T16:37:46Z 2008-02-07T16:34:30Z

Yea.... well tell that to some Chinese martial arts masters. We are who we are.

Mystica 2008-02-07T16:34:30Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#8f4e548c-88be-4fc0-902c-8f9e568afc76 2008-02-07T16:07:32Z 2008-02-07T16:07:32Z

"zeitgeist in 3 sentences: Religion is a myth used to control the masses. There are a lot of unanwered questions around 9/11. The bankers of the world are out to get rich at any cost." If it had stopped there, it would be true.

wil 2008-02-07T16:07:32Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#4dad64f5-48db-4722-beed-f8cb3266421b 2008-02-07T16:06:11Z 2008-02-07T16:06:11Z

To me, it doesn't matter a whit who said what. What matters is what is said.

wil 2008-02-07T16:06:11Z travis http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#0c2c1aea-d9f5-4ddd-8667-fbd46e874b7f 2008-02-07T15:50:54Z 2008-02-07T15:50:54Z

zeitgeist in 3 sentences: Religion is a myth used to control the masses. There are a lot of unanwered questions around 9/11. The bankers of the world are out to get rich at any cost.

travis 2008-02-07T15:50:54Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7474d94e-5144-4588-8fd8-4feac4599762 2008-02-07T15:34:21Z 2008-02-07T15:34:21Z

I think we both learn and teach much more when we drop the personal attacks and simply engage with one another in a collective search for truth.

wil 2008-02-07T15:34:21Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#1835cdaf-3982-4f39-af2d-6ccc5ed28983 2008-02-07T15:28:18Z 2008-02-07T15:28:18Z

I guess we could all just sit around and watch our words and be oh so politically correct, and pretty as you please. But there comes a time too when it's good just to be yourself and "truthfully" express your feelings as you feel it in the moment. That's what I love about children.... they just say it like it is. There is no pretention or petty props. They are real and true to their feelings. If we feel passionately about something, why hold in the energy? Just so we can "look" good in the eyes of another? At some point I think it's ok to overturn the tables to get a message across. I am touched you feel so close to Liv and want to defend her, and that is good. Love and goodness are excellent qualities. This is what I feel for Earth: lottsa Love. I care. Very much.

Mystica 2008-02-07T15:28:18Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ee2d8959-067b-4540-b923-4022477136c7 2008-02-07T15:20:24Z 2008-02-07T15:20:24Z

That is the way Psi's personality is. Are you the moderator here? :-) He feels very strongly about this just as I do. YOu know, one could suppose that Liv is personally attacking some of us in this thread as well, but oh so clever, as she blindly posts and posits facts that are not true. Her facts are tabloid material that do not support Mother Earth, but only enhances the advantageous corporate chambers. {{{{"I think that if chemical pesticide and fertilizer were ended anything like abruptly, there would indeed be mass starvation."}}}} No there would not! omg.....lol! You seem to have no faith in Mother Nature.

Mystica 2008-02-07T15:20:24Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f39bef55-9ed4-4aa3-a229-21bf606bc936 2008-02-07T15:09:20Z 2008-02-07T15:09:20Z

"Anyone claiming that there will be mass starvation is only seeing capitalist corporate models and ignoring the facts of cultivation. In other words these claims are from people who know very little about the actual subject and are paid or brainwashed to spew out the same old lines, over and over (disinformation)." That is way too harsh, in my opinion, and what i consider a personal attack. Why not simply say that you don't think that there will be mass starvation and state your reasons why you think that? If we want to convince another person of the truth of our words, a personal attack is a very poor place to start in my opinion. There is plenty of room in a discussion of world agriculture for informed people of good heart and good faith to have an honest difference of opinion. It is a very complicated issue. I think that if chemical pesticide and fertilizer were ended anything like abruptly, there would indeed be mass starvation. I know a lot about the actual subject. I've been an organic grower for decades. I've also read widely on the subject, and actually went down to guatemala and helped some mayans in their gardens.

wil 2008-02-07T15:09:20Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#83e82cd3-84ae-4a74-a4bd-59cfd3a8774a 2008-02-07T15:09:10Z 2008-02-07T15:09:10Z

My boyfriend loves it when I talk dirty politics... "Exploit my natural resources, baby... oo yeah!"

Liv 2008-02-07T15:09:10Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#b0d51ba0-633d-4361-95f2-858560e431e0 2008-02-07T15:00:31Z 2008-02-07T15:00:31Z

Here's a way to see what I'm talking about: Get a piece of graph paper and mark it for right ascension (RA) on one axis and declination (Dec) on the other. Label it from 15h - 20h RA and -22° to -32° Dec. - Plot the location of Sagittarius A* as a point - Plot the hour-by-hour locations of the Sun on December 21, 2012 - Draw a 32' wide band (16' to either side) along the Sun locations Look at the graph and tell me at what time on December 21, 2012 there is an occultation of Sagittarius A*.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T15:00:31Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#69214cdb-1a11-48c3-85d0-3fe089faab5b 2008-02-07T14:49:45Z 2008-02-07T14:49:45Z

{{{{"Anyone claiming that there will be mass starvation is only seeing capitalist corporate models and ignoring the facts of cultivation. In other words these claims are from people who know very little about the actual subject and are paid or brainwashed to spew out the same old lines, over and over (disinformation)."}}}}

Mystica 2008-02-07T14:49:45Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#b202b208-9ac0-4dbb-8591-7e1355589e0a 2008-02-07T14:25:26Z 2008-02-07T14:25:26Z

"Check my profile... I posted pictures showing this is wrong... " The caption of your last photo says: "The top of the moon is at DEC -26° the bottom is at DEC -29°... covering 3 Degrees DEC..." However, the moon has an apparent diameter of only half a degree, so how can it "cover" or occult 3 degrees? Check the *numbers* for the sun's declination on December 12, 2012. It's not -26° or -29° but 23° and change (less than half a degree). You're trying to figure this out by eyeballing it. You've got to look at the numbers!

Hoopes 2008-02-07T14:25:26Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#104df0f8-b394-4a11-88c0-f78fd6d53cbd 2008-02-07T14:10:22Z 2008-02-07T14:10:22Z

"You seem to be saying that Sagittarius A* is not the same as the Galactic Center" No way, dude! I never said anything like that! Read my lips: Sagittarius A* is the Galactic Center. I haven't been referring to Sagittarius A (Sgr A) at all, but Sagittarius A* (Sgr A*). Read my posts!!!

Hoopes 2008-02-07T14:10:22Z Psi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#772e0fa0-8665-436e-8b0b-0310b7586694 2008-02-07T09:39:31Z 2008-02-07T09:39:31Z

"You do know that changing all of our crops over to organic would mean mass starvation around the planet, don't you? The only reason we have enough food to feed the people here in america alone is because we have genetically modified species that survive harsher weather and provide higher yields per acre. It's not about making our the apples shinier." This is complete and total rubbish. I have been involved in Horticulture and Agriculture for 30 years and can say categorically that it is simply NOT TRUE! Here in the UK farmers are being paid to grow nothing because of too much poor quality food production flooding the market from around the EU and elsewhere. Around the world organic methods have been successfully employed to reclaim land ruined by the use of chemical fertilisers. The question of soil fertility is never addressed by agro-chemical use and always results in the same thing - dead and salinated land. There are thousands of studies which have proven what I am saying. The only reason why anyone continues with non-organic methods is because of profit. And the primary profit is for the petro-chemical industries - a dying and increasingly defensive group. Anyone claiming that there will be mass starvation is only seeing capitalist corporate models and ignoring the facts of cultivation. In other words these claims are from people who know very little about the actual subject and are paid or brainwashed to spew out the same old lines, over and over (disinformation). It is no truer in any part of the planet than any other. The USA is ruled by a petro-chemical elite who are stealing oil from around the world and committing acts of mass-genocide in their path. The key is devolved land ownership and means of production. Monoculture is a capitalist way. Polycultures support life and replenish natural systems. Compost revitalises soil and ensures natural balance. The 'green revolution' literally desertified millions of acres of land which some people have managed to begin to reclaim through sustainable techniques. "Genetic modification has actually been going on for hundreds of years, through the simple processes of grafting plants. All of the food we eat these days is a result of human selection anyway. Its all genetically modified." This is the usual line by very biased so-called 'scientists' whose job it is to promote a certain group of very biased views. NO, genetic modification is working at a genetic level adding material that otherwise could not be there or removing other material artificially, to create results that would never happen naturally. Ignorant people claim examples like the Maya breeding corn or apple grafting but this can only be done with compatible species, through cross-pollination and the same species. To claim that cross-pollination is the same as genetic modification is a nonsense and disinformation! It's the sort of crap that you can read in deducational science periodicals designed to disinform students! So why make such claims? Do you work for Monsanto?

Psi 2008-02-07T09:39:31Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#10dcba1a-d9ba-43a7-ba42-6d8e8c29bf16 2008-02-07T08:25:29Z 2008-02-07T08:25:29Z

seems you have the concept of the size correct... but yeah...you just don't seem to be able to understand what I am saying...I have said that exact same thing to you...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T08:25:29Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#80565996-1dec-4b9e-a628-833dbfe02124 2008-02-07T08:22:47Z 2008-02-07T08:22:47Z

the first time you asked yes... i asked if you had your location on earth correct... not that it mattered... normally that is the first thing that is wrong when looking at these things... for example did you see the complete solar eclipse today...nope... cause you could only see it in Antarctica or south pacific ocean... but any way... I posted pictures from Adastra showing you that, yes it does change the location of the sun on the Celestial Sphere. So thu it doesn't matter much... because the GC is 27,000 LY away...and the sun is only 1 AU away.... The Sun completely Occults the entire section of the sky where the Galactic Center is... I mean if you could see from earth the Dark Rift at the same time as the Sun... you would see that it literally coves most of the entire Rift... which is several thousand light years wide... it covers the Sagittarius Star Cloud at RA 17h 58m DEC -29° and the covers GC @ RA 17h 45m DEC -29°.

Manjushri 2008-02-07T08:22:47Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#67789c6a-f2b6-4aec-bf30-35d8ad531c44 2008-02-07T08:10:24Z 2008-02-07T08:10:24Z

Check my profile... I posted pictures showing this is wrong...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T08:10:24Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#c821efff-4a15-4e72-a9b0-403d2059f390 2008-02-07T08:08:44Z 2008-02-07T08:08:44Z

"No, I'm really just trying to get things straight. You're the one who's making it confusing by saying all kinds of different things and acting as if they're the same, or saying the same things and then actig as if they're different.' I have given you all the info and links and told you to check for yourself. You are the one getting confused, no offense, but I have been extremely Clear in what I have been saying... From the Very beginning... You seem to be saying that Sagittarius A* is not the same as the Galactic Center, even though all of the information I've seen (including lots of references that you yourself have cited) says that it is. I don't care whether it's a radio signal, an X-ray image, a glowing ball of fire, particles shooting out of a black hole, or whatever. ALL of those things are just different wavelengths of light, the study of which is the only way to know the location of the Galactic Center. Sagittarius A* IS the Galactic Center. 'Sagittarius A' is not 'Srg A*'... that might be part of your confusion... I posted the picture showing this in my profile and provided a link somewhere in the mess of this thread... Sagittarius A is a much larger section of Space and contains Srg A*... Srg A* is the Black Hole... Which until recently was only known of because of the Radio Signal... That Black Hole is the Center of the Galaxy. I have posted pictures from Google Earth, Adastra and Nasa showing what I mean... so Check my Profile

Manjushri 2008-02-07T08:08:44Z davidsjelly http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#d350dc03-0e90-41fc-a463-c4852e82ec8a 2008-02-07T08:02:11Z 2008-02-07T08:02:11Z

from my favorite dhamma reflection; Sitting does not create truth meditation does not produce insight just as smelling a flower does not make it fragrant the perfume of the rose is there. we slow down to attend to the unfolding and flowering of it's nature Slowing down to attend to just this breath allows the reality of now to reveal it's nature. sitting Still gives us the oportunity to witness the revealing of the truth. - The Moon Appears When The Water Is Still

davidsjelly 2008-02-07T08:02:11Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#c55d4a07-40c4-4feb-ab2b-df94dbf0e25a 2008-02-07T06:50:34Z 2008-02-07T06:50:34Z

Thanks, man. I've never took an astronomy course, though I know I would have loved it. I did once sail from the Chesapeake to Bermuda and back thanks to some expert, old-fashioned celestial navigation with a sextant (but not by me...) on a 36' sloop that had NO electronic navigation system. One of the most beautiful experiences of that trip was sitting watch on a crystal clear night with the sea like glass while the glowing orange fireball of the sun set into the ocean on one horizon just as a beautiful full moon rose from the water directly across from it. Nothing but the water, the cosmos, and the boat beneath me, slowly gliding like a feather across the surface of a mirrorlike sea.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T06:50:34Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#d737d169-6d4a-4f75-b272-6813185e2a16 2008-02-07T06:39:54Z 2008-02-07T06:39:54Z

"it went from 17h 59m at 00:00AM to 18h 0m at 5AM, 18h 1m at 10AM, 18h 2m at 4pm THEN it jumps back to 17h 57m at 5pm... 17h 58m at 6pm... As you see it jumps..." Well, just a tiny bit. Look at the numbers. You're talking about differences of less than 3 minutes. That's not enough to get you an occultation.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T06:39:54Z davidsjelly http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#1e7b0741-9f4a-4215-8e4b-5546936e3f88 2008-02-07T06:31:13Z 2008-02-07T06:31:13Z

thanks for all the info~! and thanks for sticking with it and not getting too frustrated, defensive or evasive. ya ever notice... the deeper you go the bigger it gets... hugsensations,

davidsjelly 2008-02-07T06:31:13Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#fe3ff012-b97d-4610-9c89-7cfd3c6cfa94 2008-02-07T06:28:06Z 2008-02-07T06:28:06Z

"The Sun is so large compared to this area of sky... " The apparent size of the sun is 32 arcminutes. It takes 60 to make a degree. How can an object half a degree wide with a declination of -23° occult a point with a declination of -29°? This discussion is starting to sound sooooo geeky!

Hoopes 2008-02-07T06:28:06Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#c93ee775-2f69-4b17-9afa-69ced5ac5d2b 2008-02-07T06:24:16Z 2008-02-07T06:24:16Z

You're only talking about right ascension (RA): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_ascension You haven't addressed the issue of declination (Dec.): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declination Both must be the same for an occultation to occur.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T06:24:16Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#eb7c03d7-b6e2-428c-bd5a-b111bb28169d 2008-02-07T06:16:38Z 2008-02-07T06:16:38Z

For what it's worth, several astronomers observed a lunar occultation of the Galactic Center (which they called IRS 16), at that time identified as being "within a few arcseconds of the peculiar compact radio course Sgr A*, at 22:23:20 UT on 11 September 1986: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1988ApJ...327L..65A http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1988ApJ...327L..65A&data_type=PDF_HIGH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf

Hoopes 2008-02-07T06:16:38Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#d57fd306-dab3-47cd-a31c-7d81823b94b8 2008-02-07T06:16:38Z 2008-02-07T06:16:38Z

ccording to AdAstra FreeStar, when set to the coordinates you gave me for Chichén Itzá (I'm trying to duplicate the information that you gave me *exactly*, even though the location on Earth does *not* make a difference!), on December 21, 2012 the sun moves from RA 18h 0m 12s, Dec -23° 26' 30" at sunrise (6:27) to RA 18h 2m 13s Dec -23° 26' 26' at sunset (17:20). At no time during that day does it cross the point RA 17h 45m 40.04s, Dec -29° 00' 28.1" or even RA 17h 45m 40.045s Dec. −29.00775, the locations that have been cited for Sagittarius A* LMAO...FIrst it does make a difference... you can check this right now if you want. At 12 Noon on 12.21.2012 the sun will be RA 18H 1M 36S if viewed from Oregon... 18H 0M 14S if viewed from Yucatan... 18H 0M 52S if viewed from Peru... all different locations AT the EXACT same time... Galactic time... Second It does not go in an even line as you seem to try to suggest... when viewed from (closest confirmed city on adastar to kukulcan) Acapulco, Mexico it went from 17h 59m at 00:00AM to 18h 0m at 5AM, 18h 1m at 10AM, 18h 2m at 4pm THEN it jumps back to 17h 57m at 5pm... 17h 58m at 6pm... As you see it jumps... then goes back up again... and it does occult the center during that transit... 17H 58M, DEC -29° is the Sagittarius Star Cloud. Now even though this is not the exact location... The Sun is so large compared to this area of sky... It will Occult both the Star Cload and the Galactic Center... I am making lots of pictures of this as well to post... But the point is... even at 17H 57M the Sun IS IN FACT OCCULTING the Galactic Center...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T06:16:38Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#c1698f54-3776-4635-ae82-98767ad07537 2008-02-07T06:07:06Z 2008-02-07T06:07:06Z

"It doesn't... I never said it did.... It talks about the Galactic Center... " One more time... Sagittarius A* IS the Galactic Center. Astronomers think it's the black hole at the center of the swirling, down-the-drain spiral of the Milky Way galaxy. It's a teeny, tiny, distant object that, for all intents and purposes, is a single point on the celestial sphere. The "Galactic Center" that Jenkins' book refers to is not this point, but a generalized region that corresponds to the black rift in the Milky Way as seen from Earth. Here's an analogy: The "Galactic Center" as referred to by Jenkins is a dartboard. Sagittarius A* is a pinprick at the center of the bullseye of that dartboard. What I'm saying is that an object (the Sun) may be hitting the dartboard, but not the bullseye. What I think you're saying is that it's hitting the bullseye (when it's not). Be glad we're not in a bar playing darts...

Hoopes 2008-02-07T06:07:06Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#71657f0a-8f04-4f13-bd5a-036c84075f4f 2008-02-07T05:56:23Z 2008-02-07T05:56:23Z

"once again your confusing the Occultation with the Alignment... " Wait a minute. Isn't the occultation (which occurs when three objects--the Earth, the Sun, and Sagittarius A*--are all in a line so that the Sun is directly between the Earth and Sagittarius A* (which is occulted by the Sun)? Doesn't the alignment you're describing just add a fourth "object" (the Pleiades) so that there are four objects in a line instead of just three? You seem to be saying that Sagittarius A* is not the same as the Galactic Center, even though all of the information I've seen (including lots of references that you yourself have cited) says that it is. I don't care whether it's a radio signal, an X-ray image, a glowing ball of fire, particles shooting out of a black hole, or whatever. ALL of those things are just different wavelengths of light, the study of which is the only way to know the location of the Galactic Center. Sagittarius A* IS the Galactic Center. "See what I mean about you just arguing with me... you don't even know what you are arguing about it seems... just finding things to argue... " No, I'm really just trying to get things straight. You're the one who's making it confusing by saying all kinds of different things and acting as if they're the same, or saying the same things and then actig as if they're different. I don't want to argue. I just want to get things exactly, perfectly, beautifully crystal clear and correct.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T05:56:23Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e0ec4c79-8641-449c-9b3f-71f1da9b6a2e 2008-02-07T05:43:38Z 2008-02-07T05:43:38Z

No, I really don't want to argue. I want to get it right.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T05:43:38Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f223c861-3a4a-4b33-b7d1-a824f8812eb8 2008-02-07T05:39:41Z 2008-02-07T05:39:41Z

It doesn't... I never said it did.... It talks about the Galactic Center... Even though those are basically the same location... Come on man... Don't be like that... You would know this if you have the book... What are you doing... you don't seem to want to learn at all...just argue

Manjushri 2008-02-07T05:39:41Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#0034c76f-6f43-490f-81a8-f9432b7e2f31 2008-02-07T05:37:07Z 2008-02-07T05:37:07Z

I also said you could see it from anywhere in America...but you can see it world wide too...just not on 12.21.2012...you are either not reading everything I tell you or you just want to argue..maybe you really can't figure it out... regardless I am in the process of posting the picture from adastra... which will be in my profile when I post it.

Manjushri 2008-02-07T05:37:07Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#92cd6c5e-8329-487f-8d14-92f6968acd4b 2008-02-07T05:37:04Z 2008-02-07T05:37:04Z

"What I said is not in conflict with this... " Umm. Yes it was. You said that the location at Chichén Itzá made a difference. You asked if I "changed the location" and then said you meant the location on Earth. What you said was totally in conflict with this.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T05:37:04Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ed434acd-ea7e-496f-ae37-fae5d6f4a893 2008-02-07T05:33:21Z 2008-02-07T05:33:21Z

No of course not... I never said it would... once again your confusing the Occultation with the Alignment... which also includes Plieades and the earth itself not JUST the sun and Galactic Center... Once again no conflict... See what I mean about you just arguing with me... you don't even know what you are arguing about it seems... just finding things to argue...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T05:33:21Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#371c0267-447e-42c1-9fce-d9343467c4c1 2008-02-07T05:25:10Z 2008-02-07T05:25:10Z

Totally. What I said is not in conflict with this...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T05:25:10Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7ba080d2-6568-4599-b5a4-2ea667e38086 2008-02-07T05:19:03Z 2008-02-07T05:19:03Z

"read the whole book before you make a comment like that..." Tell me where in the whole book it says anything about the Sun being between the Earth and Sagittarius A*.on December 21, 2012.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T05:19:03Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#56bdbbe7-9c9b-42d1-8d21-e7750986db47 2008-02-07T05:13:25Z 2008-02-07T05:13:25Z

If someone is trying to take a photograph of you and you hold up your hand to keep them from getting a photo of your face, your hand is in occultation with your face. If you look at an object on the other side of the room and block it from view with your thumb, your thumb is in occultation with the object. During a solar eclipse, the moon in in occultation with the sun. On December 21, 2012, the sun is NOT in occultation with Sagittarius A*... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occultation

Hoopes 2008-02-07T05:13:25Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#a672c049-0948-46ad-acaa-2bb59cfb0e17 2008-02-07T05:07:47Z 2008-02-07T05:07:47Z

BTW, here's what I mean by celestial sphere: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_sphere

Hoopes 2008-02-07T05:07:47Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e8c0d417-2d23-4b11-9e35-bee1eac7a2ee 2008-02-07T05:05:58Z 2008-02-07T05:05:58Z

Oh, I see. You thought "at the same time" meant the same time on the clock, not the same *moment* in time (which is what I meant). Greenwich Mean Time or whatever. Sure, you've got to make corrections for different time zones.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T05:05:58Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#17207bce-8747-4d60-a809-8e277d29d481 2008-02-07T05:04:01Z 2008-02-07T05:04:01Z

Well, I didn't say you could SEE the location of the Sun on the celestial sphere from everywhere on the planet at the same time! However, it's there...

Hoopes 2008-02-07T05:04:01Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2f9e7c88-b04f-4283-893c-4aeb6b608346 2008-02-07T05:03:34Z 2008-02-07T05:01:08Z

{{{"The apparent location of the Sun on the celestial sphere (which is how astronomers indicate the locations of things) will be the same everywhere on the planet at the same time on December 21, 2012 (or any other day)."}}} How can this be when some places on Earth are almost a day ahead of me from where I stand?

Mystica 2008-02-07T05:01:08Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#d51dc149-906a-464a-ad4d-f6cc83167ce7 2008-02-07T05:02:05Z 2008-02-07T05:02:05Z

"I verified the occultation with 4 different digital planetariums so far..." I don't know which you've been using, but think you'll find that SkyMap Pro v. 7 is a lot more sophisticated than AdAstra FreeStar. You can download a copy at http://astrosoc.soc.ru.ac.za/archive/software/

Hoopes 2008-02-07T05:02:05Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#35cfc768-6472-4143-8835-12dcabc1ffb2 2008-02-07T04:58:27Z 2008-02-07T04:58:27Z

I would love to be able to understand what exactly an "Occultation" is, in as simple terms as possible. Thank you. (interesting stuff guys!) We are moving into somthing big.... I can feel it.

Mystica 2008-02-07T04:58:27Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#5c41cafd-a649-469b-b643-d7fc73c98600 2008-02-07T04:56:21Z 2008-02-07T04:56:21Z

You can test what I'm saying about location in AdAstra FreeStar (or any similar astronomy program). Note the location of the sun on the celestial sphere for a specific time on any given day. Now change your location on the earth (while correcting for time zone differences, of course). The location information for the sun won't change.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T04:56:21Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#67f1a273-9c39-4a7b-8a8b-80f01d341309 2008-02-07T04:52:24Z 2008-02-07T04:52:24Z

"Yes, Your location on the surface of the planet matters greatly. For example tomorrow there will be an Annular eclipse of the Sun." Well, sure, location matters for eclipses caused by the moon. It's only 384,403 km away. It does not matter for the occultation/alignment we're discussing, which involves *much* greater distances. The apparent location of the Sun on the celestial sphere (which is how astronomers indicate the locations of things) will be the same everywhere on the planet at the same time on December 21, 2012 (or any other day). The same is true for Sagittarius A*. The Earth is not large enough for travel across its surface to make a significant difference with regard to the apparent locations of either of these objects, since the Sun is 149,597,892 km away and Sagittarius A* is 25,900 ± 1,400 light years away. Think about lining up a close object on one that's farther away. You can do this with your thumb. Hold it up close to your face and look at the other side of the room as you move it side to side. You can use your thumb to cover up something on the other side of the room to your left and then something on the other side of the room to your right by moving it just a little bit (even less as you bring it closer to your face) Now hold your arm out all the way and try to put your thumb over the same reference points. You have to move it a lot more to get it from one side to the other. What you're seeing is something called parallax. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax The farther away things are, the less the parallax effect. That's why the apparent locations of distant celestial objects don't change as you move across the face of the Earth.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T04:52:24Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f34cb0a0-8ffa-40f3-86d0-69b3726b3a91 2008-02-07T04:31:12Z 2008-02-07T04:31:12Z

"I prefer AdAstra FreeStar' Okay, I downloaded and installed the program. It's a LOT less sophisticated than the one I downloaded, but it will do. According to AdAstra FreeStar, when set to the coordinates you gave me for Chichén Itzá (I'm trying to duplicate the information that you gave me *exactly*, even though the location on Earth does *not* make a difference!), on December 21, 2012 the sun moves from RA 18h 0m 12s, Dec -23° 26' 30" at sunrise (6:27) to RA 18h 2m 13s Dec -23° 26' 26' at sunset (17:20). At no time during that day does it cross the point RA 17h 45m 40.04s, Dec -29° 00' 28.1" or even RA 17h 45m 40.045s Dec. −29.00775, the locations that have been cited for Sagittarius A* I'm not an astronomer, but if I'm reading the declinations correctly, the sun's declination at -23° 26' 30-26'' throughout the day on December 21, 2012 is almost 6° off of the declination of Sagittarius A* at -29° 00' 28.1''. Since the sun's disk is about half a degree (.5°) wide as seen from the earth, this means that the distance between the sun and the galactic center will be about 10-12 times the width of the sun. That's NOT an occultation. A difference of 6° is one hell of a major "wavy" gravity bend for a radio source that is located, as you say "ALMOST EXACTLY at the Galactic Center"! That's an HUGE factor of error, regardless of how far away the galactic center is. If getting the winter solstice sun within 6° of the galactic center is considered to be a "hit", I'm sure it's happened a LOT more than once every 26,000 years. So, according to the information you've given me--using the same software and specifications you recommended--there is NOT an occultation by the sun of Sagittarius A* on December 21, 2012. "You might have to turn the Galactic Equator Lines on for your software..." On AdAstra FreeStar, the sun intersects the galactic line on December 20, not December 21.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T04:31:12Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e043730b-23a0-4feb-bfef-33546d9dc4f5 2008-02-07T04:03:26Z 2008-02-07T04:03:26Z

Amazing stuff guys..... I'm learning so much! Thank you. *~*

Mystica 2008-02-07T04:03:26Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f341fec8-711b-43c8-834c-f0fe6af34ca7 2008-02-07T04:00:10Z 2008-02-07T04:00:10Z

Srg A* a small area inside Sagittarius A... Recent data seems to confirm it is the Center...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T04:00:10Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#fdf3b785-af03-4a18-8615-7f2cd59956e9 2008-02-07T03:53:23Z 2008-02-07T03:53:23Z

http://www.mpe.mpg.de/ir/GC/index.php Galactic Center Research

Manjushri 2008-02-07T03:53:23Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#83f2cce9-bee7-4a6a-b6b9-b19dd1c3ede4 2008-02-07T03:51:14Z 2008-02-07T03:51:14Z

So even though Srg A* is a radio signal... It is what has confirmed to Science that there is a Black Hole in the center of our Galaxy... This Signal Itself has recently been dubbed the center.... But I stand by my Larry King = Earth analogy. In the Picture I just posted you can see what I mean, The Large Area is Sagittarius A.. in it's western region is Srg A* which as close as we have gotten to the Axial Center... The Axial center is the center found with mathematical calculations based on what little we know about our galaxy... I hope this clears up the Srg A* thing.

Manjushri 2008-02-07T03:51:14Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#a529ad88-24ab-4000-a161-b5b829f31651 2008-02-07T03:45:35Z 2008-02-07T03:45:35Z

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2003/0203long/0203long_three_label.jpg

Manjushri 2008-02-07T03:45:35Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#64b6ac90-56eb-463c-8583-e0db76d1be51 2008-02-07T03:42:26Z 2008-02-07T03:42:26Z

http://chandra.harvard.edu/press/03_releases/press_010603.html Milky Way Monster Stars in Cosmic Reality Show January 6, 2003 RELEASE: 03-002 Don Savage, Public Affairs Office NASA Headquarters, Washington D.C. Phone: 202-358-1727 Steve Roy Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL Phone: 256-544-6535 Megan Watzke Chandra X-ray Observatory Center, CfA, Cambridge, MA Phone: 617-496-7998 cxcpress@cfa.harvard.edu Sagittarius A* Press Image and Caption The longest X-ray look yet at the supermassive black hole at the Milky Way's center has given astronomers unprecedented access to its life and times. The new data from NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory revealed that our galaxy's central black hole is a frequent bad actor, prone to numerous outbursts and occasional large explosions. The observations of the black hole, a.k.a. Sagittarius A* or Sgr A*, occurred over a two-week period for a total exposure time of 164 hours. During this time Sgr A* flared up in X-ray intensity half a dozen or more times. Astronomers also found evidence that suggests it had an even more boisterous past. These discoveries will help to unlock the secrets of how Sgr A* grows and how it interacts with its environment "We are getting a look at the everyday life of a supermassive black hole like never before," said Frederick K. Baganoff of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge, who presented these new results on behalf of an international team at a press conference today at the American Astronomical Society meeting in Seattle. "We see it flaring on an almost daily basis." Sagittarius A* More images of Sagittarius A* The cause of the flares is not understood, but the rapidity with which they rise and fall indicates that they are occurring near the event horizon, or point of no return, around the black hole. Even when it flares, the intensity of the X-ray emission from the vicinity of the black hole is relatively weak, which suggests that Sgr A*, weighing in at 3 million times the mass of the Sun, is a starved black hole. "Although it appears to snack often, this black hole is definitely on a severe diet," says Baganoff. "This could be because explosive events in the past blew away much of the gas from the neighborhood of the black hole." Indeed, evidence for such events - which astronomers are viewing 26,000 years later due to the time it takes light to travel to Earth from the center of the Galaxy - can be found in the image. A faint streak of X-rays about 1 light-year long has been discovered 1.5 light years from Sgr A*. The streak points at Sgr A*, suggesting that it may be a jet of particles expelled at nearly the speed of light from just outside the event horizon of the black hole. The intensity and size of this jet indicate that the flaring activity has been occurring for many years. Sagittarius A* Labeled image of Sagittarius A* Jet On a much larger scale, huge lobes of 20-million-degree-Centigrade gas extending over dozens of light years on either side of the black hole have also been discovered. "These lobes show that enormous explosions have occurred several times over the last ten thousand years," said Mark Morris of UCLA, lead author of a second paper on Sgr A*, who also participated in the press conference. Sangwook Park, of Penn State University in University Park, and Michael Muno, of MIT, were lead authors of two other papers presented at the meeting. These papers focused on the extraordinarily rich region around the central black hole, where they detected more than 2,000 X-ray sources. Other members of the team include Mark Bautz and George Ricker of MIT, Niel Brandt, Patrick Broos, George Chartas, Eric Feigelson, Gordon Garmire, and Leisa Townsley of Penn State, Yoshitomo Maeda of the Institute of Space and Astronautical Science in Japan, and Christian Howard of UCLA. NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala., manages the Chandra program, and TRW, Inc., Redondo Beach, Calif., is the prime contractor for the spacecraft. The Smithsonian's Chandra X-ray Center controls science and flight operations from Cambridge, Mass., for the Office of Space Science at NASA Headquarters, Washington. Images and additional information about this result are available at: http://chandra.harvard.edu and http://chandra.nasa.gov [ Press Index ] [ Press Releases ] [ View other Black Hole Releases ]

Manjushri 2008-02-07T03:42:26Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#3d9761a5-353d-46c7-b9dc-d94322688b76 2008-02-07T03:36:31Z 2008-02-07T03:36:31Z

"The "dark rift" is not the same as Sagittarius A*, which you agree is the galactic center. I'm not saying the sun won't line up with the dark rift. I'm saying that the software I used doesn't put it on Sagittarius A*." No, the Dark Rift is light years wide and is much larger than the sun... If you are in South America it is very bright (not the rift, but the stars you can see around it) not as bright up here... The center is in the Dark Rift as viewed from earth... I do not Agree Sagittarius A* is the Galactic Center... It is the Radio Signal that is broadcast by it. Once again, that is like saying the Larry King Show IS Earth... you can pick up the Larry king show many light years from earth as of today... Your software is pretty precise then...or you are confused as to where Sag A* is located. The two spots are not the same...but are very close...You should be able to see the Sun Cover BOTH.... I gave you WiKi coordinates...so if they are wrong, I am sorry I did not check them first. I keep telling you to download Google Earth 4 and search for the Galactic Center... It will show you all this...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T03:36:31Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#bb09388e-9482-4659-a3b0-f8e6127e2b62 2008-02-07T03:25:36Z 2008-02-07T03:25:36Z

Once Again Sagittarius A* is a radio signal from the Black Hole that IS the Galactic Center. That is like say the Larry King Show is EARTH... do you understand... you could pick up the Larry King Show far away from Earth... The Galactic Center will Align with The Earth, the Winter Solstice Sun and Plieades. The software We have access to is not precise enough to give you much more info than simply seeing the sun pass through that point, and 12 hours later the plieades does, or you can rotate 180° and see the plieades... Precise enough to draw a straight line thousand of light years long that goes thru the center of all the said objects... "so I'm sure we can figure this thing out. " LOL, I already figured it out... I am trying to help you... Yes, this has been repeated thousands of times. I have verified it dozens myself... and was just looking at it on Adastra 4 a few moments ago... So make sure you understand everything... try again then ask your questions if you still have any...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T03:25:36Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#6a17bce5-d34a-47ec-b088-0cc68caed345 2008-02-07T03:07:19Z 2008-02-07T03:07:19Z

"Radio signal. A little wavy. Heh heh. I get it. You're making a joke, right? Not explaining an error in location?" No, there was no error, that is just how it is... Though it was a Joke... 'A little' is a major understatement...and of course the Wavy part. Radio waves are bent by gravity and bounce off planets, stars, and whatever else they hit that they don't go through first... We live in a spiral galaxy... way out on the end of a spiral arm... we are so far out that the closest star is in Alpha Centuari which is a different Galaxy, 4.6 light years away... So all the stars and space matter that is in between us and the center heavily distorts the Radio Signal that is Sag A.... Here let me Quote WIKI a Second time... "The complex radio source Sagittarius A appears to be located ALMOST EXACTLY at the Galactic Center, and contains an intense compact radio source, Sagittarius A*, which many astronomers believe may coincide with a supermassive black hole at the center of our Galaxy. Accretion of gas onto the black hole, probably involving a disk around it, would release energy to power the radio source, itself much larger than the black hole. The latter is too small to see with present instruments" When I say Galactic Center, That is what I was saying the Axial Center of the Milky Way Galaxy, the center of the spiral...not the confirmed source of the Radio Signal that comes from the Black Hole at the Center... Sagittarius A* as you see is extremely close... as it is the signal from the Galactic Center, But it is not the Center... I have already told you this... no conflicts... no errors... "Now wait a minute. Why should I change the location just because you told me to? " You asked me why you did not see the Occultation, I told you why. Change the Location that you are viewing from on the planet. (don't know what else I could possibly be talking about, you can't change the location of the center of the galaxy =p) Though most likely you just don't know what you are looking for, as it should be visible from many locations at different times of the day.... Also the Galactic Center is 27,000 Light years away, Our Sun completely Covers Galactic Center (it is behind the sun, you can't see it). Look to the Area between Sagittarius and Scorpius... Sag's Arrow points to it and Scorp's Tail points to it (an esoteric meaning in the zodiac). The Galactic Equatorial Line will Go thru that part of the sky... You will see the Sun at that point... you can watch the sun pass thru it that day from all of north and south America. I will Post pictures from Adastar which you can get from www.Space.com Or www.download.com. Thu your software should be fine... there are no tricks...I have view the event many times with many different programs. "Why doesn't it matter that the center of the galaxy has been known since 1918, you confirmed it yourself, and now you're telling me it's in a different location? I think that matters a great deal, especially if you're shitting me. (Which I hope you're not.)" I never said anything of the sort... I only gave you quotes from WiKi so you knew what the Galactic Center even Was, Sag A is a part of that story... That is my whole point about researching this your self... it is the truth, and thus I don't need to say a word... I have nothing to prove to you... Nor do I care if you agree with me... But I am here to teach... you are asking good questions... so I answer... Thu I feel I have provided you with all the tools you need... lol "Furthermore, why Chichén Itzá? John Major Jenkins says that the original alignment was identified at Izapa, Guatemala, far to the south. The Kukulcan Pyramid at Chichén Itzá dates to almost a thousand years after the monuments at Izapa that JMJ uses to make his argument. The pyramid at Chichén is relatively late compared to earlier structures, such as the Temple of Inscriptions at Palenque (where the tomb of "Pacal Votan", as José Arguelles calls him) is located." Actually, you Said it... The Center is too far away to make much a difference because the Sun completely covers it up. As for the Location and Date of The Kukulcan Pyramid. That is due to the Precession of the Equinoxes. The Mayans new this... and made many temples to mark different locations. The Mayans learned what they knew from older monuments, they did not invent the system, it is far more ancient than the Maya and so are many of the monuments. Kukulcans Current Location is not the Original... As I said Macho Picchu would also be a great site... Any where on the line the Galactic Center Traces on the Earth would be good. "Yeah, dude. I got it the first time. That's why I'm asking (over and over again, it seems) how you are verifying that the half-degree disk of the sun as seen from Earth crosses the spot that's been identified as the location of Sagittarius A*. " LMAO, Yeah Dude.... Then why don't you understand... I verified the occultation with 4 different digital planetariums so far... But I will tell you again, Sag A* is so close to Galactic Center, and that is soo far away, The Sun covers both up... Sag A* is the Radio Signal From The Galactic Center... SO, when the sun passes thru the Galactic Equator at the Spot where the Galactic Center, and Sag A* ( and Again download Google Earth and switch to sky-mode, search for Galactic Center, you can then see both info on the Center and Sag A* and you will be able to see where it is in the sky) meet with the Galactic Equator Line, that is when it happens... about 3pm if watching from Kukulcan. I will Post the Picture from a Planetarium for you.... "You're now telling me that I need to "change the location". What's up with that? " Again, Location on the Planet Obviously... As I already said, you can't see it at all, the Sun Covers up a black hole 27,000 light years away... You can only watch the Sun pass thru the Galactic Center, which is the part of the Galactic Equator Line that passes thru the Area Sag A*. You might have to turn the Galactic Equator Lines on for your software...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T03:07:19Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#b5a3d236-6dba-4014-b02a-4820a43082f2 2008-02-07T01:50:28Z 2008-02-07T01:50:28Z

This website says, "At dawn on the winter solstice of A.D. 2012, the sun will be right in this dark-rift" The "dark rift" is not the same as Sagittarius A*, which you agree is the galactic center. I'm not saying the sun won't line up with the dark rift. I'm saying that the software I used doesn't put it on Sagittarius A*.

Hoopes 2008-02-07T01:50:28Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#78dd8d8e-96e8-453d-97f9-4741ebcde20b 2008-02-07T01:45:20Z 2008-02-07T01:45:20Z

Okay, just so that I have it clear, there are four points that you say will align on December 21, 2012: 1) Sagittarius A*, 2) the Sun, 3) the Earth, and 4) the Pleiades. That's a testable hypothesis. Now, are you saying they align *precisely*? Precision is a relative term. Is there an acceptable margin of error? Plus or minus how many degrees (or fractions thereof)? The available software is pretty accurate, so I'm sure we can figure this thing out. If it's scientifically correct, and not a myth, it should be objectively verifiable, right?

Hoopes 2008-02-07T01:45:20Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#92ceda75-c7ab-4ab2-b310-45938676db62 2008-02-07T01:33:58Z 2008-02-07T01:33:58Z

"SAG A is a radio signal... coming from a black hole 27,000 light years away... and you don't think it would be a little wavy..." Radio signal. A little wavy. Heh heh. I get it. You're making a joke, right? Not explaining an error in location? "To me, it seems you would rather tell me I am wrong first than try to find out the truth... " Not at all. Why would you say something like that? "For example I told you to change the location, and instead you just argue pointlessly about things that don't matter." Now wait a minute. Why should I change the location just because you told me to? Why doesn't it matter that the center of the galaxy has been known since 1918, you confirmed it yourself, and now you're telling me it's in a different location? I think that matters a great deal, especially if you're shitting me. (Which I hope you're not.) "By 'seeing the occultation" I mean using some astrology software like you downloaded..." "Like" I downloaded, or the same software I downloaded? Where can I download AdAstra FreeStar? "That is the only way to see the Occultation..." Now, that makes no sense to me at all. How in the world would one's location on the planet make any difference with regard to how the sun, which is about a half-degee wide when seen from earth, would cover a teeny, tiny point located 25,900 ± 1,400 light years away? That is, if it even covers that point, which hasn't yet been proven... Furthermore, why Chichén Itzá? John Major Jenkins says that the original alignment was identified at Izapa, Guatemala, far to the south. The Kukulcan Pyramid at Chichén Itzá dates to almost a thousand years after the monuments at Izapa that JMJ uses to make his argument. The pyramid at Chichén is relatively late compared to earlier structures, such as the Temple of Inscriptions at Palenque (where the tomb of "Pacal Votan", as José Arguelles calls him) is located. "Sag A is a radio Signal of the Black Hole that is the Galactic Center... When I say Galactic Center that is what I mean..." Yeah, dude. I got it the first time. That's why I'm asking (over and over again, it seems) how you are verifying that the half-degree disk of the sun as seen from Earth crosses the spot that's been identified as the location of Sagittarius A*. You're now telling me that I need to "change the location". What's up with that?

Hoopes 2008-02-07T01:33:58Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#a59be034-337a-483f-9b47-30cb87febf3a 2008-02-07T00:58:56Z 2008-02-07T00:58:56Z

Yeah to see the alignment (with the software of course ^*^) you will have to rotate 180° to see the Plieades on the other side. Another kewl thing... http://saxakali.com/historymam7.htm another site

Manjushri 2008-02-07T00:58:56Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#4e653580-3e5f-4296-be28-5ae206ac960d 2008-02-07T00:47:00Z 2008-02-07T00:47:00Z

Your asking great questions... But they are not very hard to answer with the data already provided.... SAG A is a radio signal... coming from a black hole 27,000 light years away... and you don't think it would be a little wavy... come on this stuff is not a 'myth' but common sense... To me, it seems you would rather tell me I am wrong first than try to find out the truth... For example I told you to change the location, and instead you just argue pointlessly about things that don't matter. By 'seeing the occultation" I mean using some astrology software like you downloaded... I prefer AdAstra FreeStar but any program should be fine.... Set your location to Chichen Itza 20°40'57 N 88°34'06 W...Kukulcan Pyramid... That is the only way to see the Occultation... Should be zenith....Yeah I know it is weird cause you have to set the sky off so you can see the sun and the stars... can't do that in real life... and I never implied you could... And once last time Sag A is a radio Signal of the Black Hole that is the Galactic Center... When I say Galactic Center that is what I mean... Download Google Earth... the newest one... it has a star map feature now... very nice.... search the location for Galactic Center...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T00:47:00Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#5ad53ad6-8433-41f8-94c2-f9b5c8196012 2008-02-07T00:32:07Z 2008-02-07T00:32:07Z

Did you change your location before making that comment?

Manjushri 2008-02-07T00:32:07Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f5db8405-5bdd-4015-bf0e-7fe0f2aef492 2008-02-07T00:30:41Z 2008-02-07T00:30:41Z

Actually the Galactic Center is not visible at all... It is a black hole... you can see it in X-Ray great thu... The rift that forms the 'mouth of the snake' on the spirit highway... is very visible...because the milkyway is so bright around...so more you actually see a big black dot looks kinda like ---o--- Yes, Your location on the surface of the planet matters greatly. For example tomorrow there will be an Annular eclipse of the Sun. Only fully viewable in Antarctica and S Pacific Ocean, everywhere else will only have a partial eclipse or none at all. http://www.space.com/spacewatch/events_2008.html Great site check it out....

Manjushri 2008-02-07T00:30:41Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e2c20735-90fd-446d-b774-6c31586dd6e7 2008-02-07T00:27:33Z 2008-02-07T00:27:33Z

read the whole book before you make a comment like that...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T00:27:33Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ce3681ea-f781-452c-a1c1-1be2978fd152 2008-02-07T00:26:45Z 2008-02-07T00:26:45Z

Scroll back up to were I posted the info on Sag. A.... Also get the latest Google Earth and look up Galactic Center... You will see the info there...

Manjushri 2008-02-07T00:26:45Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#974f94a0-abbe-4768-b219-5678ceab31f1 2008-02-06T23:39:00Z 2008-02-06T23:39:00Z

"Near Front row seat will Be Kukulcan Pyramid, Chichen Itza, in the Mexican state of Yucatán. Machu Picchu, in Cuzco Peru Would be another great spot to watch the event, neither are Actually on the Equatorial Line... Just for the record, the main "event" to watch will be the people who lay out big bucks for those "front row" seats! The galactic center itself is invisible whenever the sun is near it, which it where it has been every December since 1980, and will continue to be until at least 2016. (According to information from Jenkins' website.) I haven't worked this out for myself yet, but if there's NOT an occultation of Sagittarius A* by the sun on December 21, 2012, when DOES that occur? What's the precise date and time at which the center of the solar disk is at the same point--as seen from earth--as Sagittarius A* (the location of the black hole at the center of the Milky Way)? The ancient Maya may not have been able to work that out, but modern astronomers surely can.

Hoopes 2008-02-06T23:39:00Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#bbc6de9b-729b-4665-b94a-1cf68aebbeb5 2008-02-06T23:19:25Z 2008-02-06T23:19:25Z

I just checked the reference you recommended, John Major Jenkins book "Galactic Alignment: TheTransformation of Consciousness According to Mayan, Egyptian, and Vedic Traditions (Bear & Co. 2002). On p. 20 he writes, "The early Maya intended the 2012 end-date to target the rare alignment of the December solstice sun with the bright band of the Milky Way NEAR the Galactic Center" [emphasis mine]. *Near* the galactic center is different from *at* the galactic center. It's an important distinction.

Hoopes 2008-02-06T23:19:25Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#947eca86-dbef-42de-add8-769c114cf079 2008-02-06T22:55:04Z 2008-02-06T22:55:04Z

"What location on the surface of the planet did you use.... That is vital data when doing this kind of work." That makes no sense to me at all. The earth is not large enough for there to be any significant difference in the occultation of Sagittarius A* by the sun at any point on its surface. As the earth rotates, the occultation--if it actually occurs--would be the same anywhere on the surface of the planet! I'm curious to know what you mean by "seeing" the occultation. When the sun is visible, the stars and constellations are not. Once the sun is above the horizon, that's all you'll see in the sky. If the Pleiades are 180 degrees in the opposite direction--the alignment you've mentioned--they will be going farther and farther below the southwestern horizon as the sun rises in the northeast (the winter solstice marks the sun's maximum northern position on the eastern horizon). There is nothing really to see, even at night. The only way to know that the occultation is occurring (if it fact it is...) is to have figured out what's happening in advance. The occultation itself will be invisible--all you will see is the winter solstice sun. "It seems you MUST have missed one of the books 'Galactic Alignment: The Transformation of Consciousness According to Mayan, Egyptian, and Vedic Traditions' by John Major Jenkins.. as It covers all that I have been talking about and more and has the term Galactic Alignment in the Title..." Nope, I've got it right on the shelf beside me. You're right, it has the term in the title. "So your accusation of 'that ain't so" with no supporting statements or proofs is not debating but simply arguing, blindly I might add." Well, that's not what I'm doing and anyone can see that I'm offering supporting statements and proofs. I downloaded some astronomy software--just like you said--and plugged in the date and the coordinates of the galactic center that you provided. For whatever reason, it doesn't indicate an occultation of Sagittarius A* by the sun on the winter solstice in 2012. I assume that you've checked this yourself, which is why I asked what astronomy software you were using. I don't trust the sources that you're citing any more than I would trust the assertions in "Zeitgeist". This thread has been all about checking the information for oneself. You're the one who's making assertions without following through in the way of supporting statements and proofs. What I'm asking for is really very simple, and the direct result of your own suggestion. What astronomy software (the "digital planetarium" you said I should download) should I use to find convincing evidence of the sun's occultation of Sagittarius A* (i.e. the sun's "alignment" with the "Galactic Center") on December 21, 2012? I'm not offended at all by your defensiveness, and don't intend to be offensive by engaging in critical thinking. You recommended that I use astronomy software to check your claim. I did, and it didn't. What gives? "Both sets of Cords. I gave you were from WiKi one was for the confirmed Axial Center, the other was the Radio Signal from the Black Hole which is subject to lots of shifting for obvious reasons..." Sorry, I don't see that shifting as "obvious" at all. According to what you said, the coordinates of the galactic center were discovered in 1918, which was 90 years ago. From what I've read, astronomers have confirmed its exact location. As others in this thread have done with "Zeitgeist", I'm on the lookout for untruths, half-truths, misrepresentations, and fudge factors that are being used to promote a specific agenda. What if the precision of the "galactic alignment" on 12/21/12 is a myth? Either there's an occultation by the sun of Sagittarius A* on December 21, 2012 or there's not. That should be easy enough to figure out. If there's not, then you shouldn't claim that there is. Just like anyone else here, all I'm seeking is the truth.

Hoopes 2008-02-06T22:55:04Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#0696624c-cdac-48e3-a10e-f87c24a7a9d8 2008-02-06T22:36:26Z 2008-02-06T22:36:26Z

=D I keep updating... I just hit the Google video limit LOL... Just need to fill up the YouTube now....

Manjushri 2008-02-06T22:36:26Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#36b51fc0-7d37-40e8-a4e4-737056693d4e 2008-02-06T22:22:44Z 2008-02-06T22:22:44Z

I have. *~*

Mystica 2008-02-06T22:22:44Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7d64df07-3816-4284-b501-25938090d2f9 2008-02-06T22:20:27Z 2008-02-06T22:20:27Z

I know Liv. That's the sad irony of it. Corportaions make it so that the cheapest food for the poor are the foods loaded with their "researched" chemicals. Colonialism, rerouting wetlands in aboriginal territory, moving people onto santioned segmants of land, and industrialization has hurt this world Huge Time. :-( It's a good thing that seeds are cheap still, and farmers will barter with you. (I just wish some seeds weren't radiated and genetically tampered with - It's making it harder these days to save seeds to regrow without buying a genetically modified market variety.). Sprouting foods and planting gardens is by far the most healthiest for the cheapest. Liv... open your eyes.

Mystica 2008-02-06T22:20:27Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7bf77a01-9a0f-4c94-8511-16465cee376a 2008-02-06T20:19:05Z 2008-02-06T20:19:05Z

Thank you, There is more in my profile if you wish to visit it.

Manjushri 2008-02-06T20:19:05Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#c10da043-88ae-49ec-8f6e-ae505400df57 2008-02-06T20:16:47Z 2008-02-06T20:16:47Z

Of course... What location on the surface of the planet did you use.... That is vital data when doing this kind of work. The Occultation will be seen best from the Equator... Near Front row seat will Be Kukulcan Pyramid, Chichen Itza, in the Mexican state of Yucatán. Machu Picchu, in Cuzco Peru Would be another great spot to watch the event, neither are Actually on the Equatorial Line... But were Close enough for the Mayans for their Observations and Calculations to be made =p Both sets of Cords. I gave you were from WiKi one was for the confirmed Axial Center, the other was the Radio Signal from the Black Hole which is subject to lots of shifting for obvious reasons... It seems you MUST have missed one of the books "Galactic Alignment: The Transformation of Consciousness According to Mayan, Egyptian, and Vedic Traditions" by John Major Jenkins.. as It covers all that I have been talking about and more and has the term Galactic Alignment in the Title... It a good source for info. I will post a picture in my profile from the book showing the Alignment as seen from the Kukulcan Pyramind. Link to his site http://alignment2012.com/ It's Kewl.... Just remember I was answering someone's question (you know, the actual reason for the thread =p), one that no-one else answered, but rather debated the flick Zeigeist... So your accusation of 'that ain't so" with no supporting statements or proofs is not debating but simply arguing, blindly I might add. Main reason I responded to it at all was to benefit anyone that might be reading the thread. If you have further Questions I suggest you send an E-Mail to my profile... I also recommend researching it (though you say you have) and coming to your own conclusions. I provide many resources on my profile and due to the large amount of confusion and mis-information about this subject, I will be Posting more Info on the subject. However, I am currently working on several books and trying to get other vital information Disclosed.... This Subject to me is Ancient History (Pun intended).... I am sure we helped answered lots of questions for anyone that reads this thread. So, I do feel good about the exchange and hope you are not offended by my defensiveness, as I am not offended by your criticalness. OM Mani Padme HUM OM Bhaisajye Bhaisajye Maha Bhaisajye Rajasamudgate Svaha Om Ah Ra Pa Tsa Na Dhee Dhee Dhee

Manjushri 2008-02-06T20:16:47Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f72c03c9-b852-4329-bc31-7e77a020d1ea 2008-02-06T17:57:39Z 2008-02-06T17:57:39Z

The reason I ask is that I just downloaded a program called SkyMap Pro v. 7 from this website: http://astrosoc.soc.ru.ac.za/archive/software/ I set the date to December 21, 2012 and entered the coordinates you gave for Sagittarius A*: RA 17h45m40.04s, Dec -29° 00' 28.1" (J2000 epoch) (The Wikipedia entry gives J2000 RA 17h 45m 40.045s Dec. −29.00775, which is pretty close.) Whle the sun on that date is near the location of Sagittarius A*, it's not an occultation. In fact, the line of the ecliptic as displayed doesn't intersect with the coordinates for Sagittarius A*. Can you tell me what I'm doing wrong?

Hoopes 2008-02-06T17:57:39Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#171d8e8b-a277-4cfc-9116-7f93a2b66270 2008-02-06T17:51:46Z 2008-02-06T17:51:46Z

Something tells me that you're not starving to death. If you think the FDA, EPA, and USDA is out to getcha, then by all means eat only organic foods. Here in America, we're all elite bankers compared to the people of third world countries. So be picky, and dance about it, you've got that luxury. But don't tell the billions of people in this world without food that they shouldn't be eating anything but organic food.

Liv 2008-02-06T17:51:46Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#1f1e0576-8110-41b8-a6dd-d01a24509da2 2008-02-06T17:36:07Z 2008-02-06T17:36:07Z

Thanks for your help. I'm sorry if I seem argumentative. It's not that, just critical thinking. "All you have to do is download a Digital Planetarium and see... " What software do you use? Where can I download it?

Hoopes 2008-02-06T17:36:07Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#d42fb2ac-1a8a-4953-a1f8-aae9d09df3e9 2008-02-06T15:20:36Z 2008-02-06T15:20:36Z

lol!!

Mystica 2008-02-06T15:20:36Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e239ee01-be5c-4f09-8506-adecc20e4949 2008-02-06T15:18:55Z 2008-02-06T15:18:55Z

Thank you Manjushri for your light.... very interesting stuff.

Mystica 2008-02-06T15:18:55Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#a9cbd472-ed18-4f0b-a1ec-1d37ef8f9ee0 2008-02-06T11:23:42Z 2008-02-06T11:23:42Z

ha ha, thats so funny Auton, great to have a bit humour here....

Elo 2008-02-06T11:23:42Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#20dd8df7-dd04-4c00-bb61-2e1ec888d53e 2008-02-06T06:23:13Z 2008-02-06T06:23:13Z

your connection... but that is the last freebie =p do you own research or ask much nicer... you come off argumentative...

Manjushri 2008-02-06T06:23:13Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ae97ea85-3e9a-43d1-8d1e-5bd09ff9d9f2 2008-02-06T06:20:18Z 2008-02-06T06:20:18Z

For the series of books, see Galactic Center Saga. For the center of galaxies in general, see Bulge (astronomy). The Galactic Center is the rotational center of the Milky Way galaxy. It is located about 7.6 kiloparsecs (24,800 LY) away from the Earth,[1] in the direction of the constellation Sagittarius, where the Milky Way appears brightest. Scientists hypothesize that a supermassive black hole lies in the Galactic Center of the Milky Way, and most (if not all) other galaxies. The Galactic Center as seen by one of the 2MASS infrared telescopes. The Galactic Center as seen by one of the 2MASS infrared telescopes. Contents [hide] * 1 Proof of existence and location * 2 Stellar population * 3 See also * 4 Further reading * 5 References * 6 External links [edit] Proof of existence and location Because of cool interstellar dust along the line of sight, the Galactic Center cannot be studied at visible, ultraviolet or soft X-ray wavelengths. The available information about the Galactic Center comes from observations at gamma ray, hard X-ray, infrared, sub-millimetre and radio wavelengths. Coordinates of Galactic Center were first found by Harlow Shapley in his 1918 study of the distribution of the globular clusters. In the Equatorial coordinate system they are: RA 17h45m40.04s, Dec -29° 00' 28.1" (J2000 epoch). The complex radio source Sagittarius A appears to be located almost exactly at the Galactic Center, and contains an intense compact radio source, Sagittarius A*, which many astronomers believe may coincide with a supermassive black hole at the center of our Galaxy. Accretion of gas onto the black hole, probably involving a disk around it, would release energy to power the radio source, itself much larger than the black hole. The latter is too small to see with present instruments. from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galactic_center

Manjushri 2008-02-06T06:20:18Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#fb63635b-1adc-43ac-887b-458819b6db6d 2008-02-06T06:12:42Z 2008-02-06T06:12:42Z

All you have to do is download a Digital Planetarium and see... It is an Alignment, and an Occultation...lol I am not sure why you think that it has to be one or the other. The Winter Solstice Sun Occults the Galactic Center when it shifts into full Alignment... Try to think in 3D space... Start withe the Galactic Center... Then make a Ray from there going out...way out near the outside the Galaxy, that ray then goes through the winter solstice sun (the center) through the earth (there is a visable ridge on the earth where the galactic center traces a line on the earth) then the ray continues out to the Plieades... Making an Alignment while the sun is Occulting the Galactic Center... You have posted yourself web pages that support what I am saying... I will post even more on my profile if you wish on this subject... But since I feel you are justing arguing blindly at this point instead of doing your own research I must end this Dialog...

Manjushri 2008-02-06T06:12:42Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#62426804-e0b8-4a83-abcb-e842b30df5e9 2008-02-06T05:48:39Z 2008-02-06T05:48:39Z

Okay, call it an occultation if you like. (I don't know why you go back to "alignment" if this is what you mean). I know Jenkins' work well. I don't recall him saying anything about the sun's occultation of Sagittarius A*, but rather the sun's movement into a "dark rift" in the Milky Way as seen from earth. I'm looking for a specific astronomical reference to the occulatation of Sagittarius A* by the sun on Dec. 21, 2012. The more I hunt for it, the more skeptical I become that it's what actually happens. "It is all ready all proven in many books and documentaries..." No, it is *claimed* in many books and documentaries. That's a whole different thing from "proven". You've got a bit more leg work to do before I'm convinced.

Hoopes 2008-02-06T05:48:39Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#9e08f0cb-60ea-4a8d-b4d5-364f9e7da79e 2008-02-06T04:05:26Z 2008-02-06T04:05:26Z

Behold, The Jewel in the Lotus.

Manjushri 2008-02-06T04:05:26Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#4d42d5b0-eaa8-423f-bcda-9a8ddc9f0203 2008-02-06T04:03:41Z 2008-02-06T04:03:41Z

Sure any time =p

Manjushri 2008-02-06T04:03:41Z Auton http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#12a498e5-8b17-498b-9d4a-5b9025d6456f 2008-02-06T04:01:19Z 2008-02-06T04:01:19Z

I can't help it, but I LOVE it when girls get passionate in intellectual debates. Gosh, better than sex! Thanks Liv and Mystica!

Auton 2008-02-06T04:01:19Z Larry http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#5404ea3a-0606-46d3-ad82-eb751918f519 2008-02-06T03:54:10Z 2008-02-06T03:54:10Z

And as for these crops of genetically modified food in America, they're the most regulated crops in the world. This includes regulation by the EPA and the USDA to monitor the effects of these crops on the environment they're being grown in, and on the effects the use of these foods has on people. But I'm sure there's some conspiracy theory out there that says these institutions are corrupt. Let's all complain about. >> Ok, I guess it's paranoid to worry about genetically modified foods. As long as they are regulated, we have nothing to worry about. The same for all those wonderful pharmaceuticals that are regulated by the FDA. Only a paranoid conspiracy theorist would distrust these agencies! This thread is at least good for a few laughs!

Larry 2008-02-06T03:54:10Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#b5f9c444-9fa1-43fb-bf79-99e51d418fb7 2008-02-06T01:04:06Z 2008-02-06T01:04:06Z

I am talking about an alignment not a conjunction... Actually when the sun passes over the Galactic Center it is called an Occultation. Here is the wiki on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occultation "Occultation: is an event that occurs when one object is hidden by another object that passes between it and the observer. The word is used in astronomy (see below) and can also be used in a general (non-astronomical) sense to describe when an object in the foreground occults (covers up) objects in the background. In the general sense, occultation applies to the visual scene from low-flying aircraft and in Computer-Generated Image (CGI) technology, where foreground objects obscure distant ones in a dynamic way as the scene changes. Astronomical events. These include transits and eclipses. The word transit refers to cases where the nearer object appears smaller in apparent size than the more distant object, such as transit of Mercury or Venus across the Sun's disk. The word eclipse generally refers to those instances in which one object moves into the shadow of another. Each of these three events is the visible effect of a syzygy." WIKI on a CONJUNCTION: "Conjunction is a term used in positional astronomy and astrology. It means that, as seen from some place (usually the Earth), two celestial bodies appear near one another in the sky. The event is also sometimes known as an appulse." Some info from http://www.innertraditions.com/Product.jmdx?action=displayDetail&id=137 on Jenkin's Book I mentioned you should read... The Galactic Alignment is a rare astronomical event that brings the solstice sun into alignment with the center of the Milky Way galaxy every 12,960 years. Building on the discoveries of his book Maya Cosmogenesis 2012, Jenkins demonstrates that the end-date of 2012 does not signal the end of time but rather the beginning of a new stage in the development of human consciousness. He recovers a striking common thread that connects the ancient cosmological insights of the Maya not only to Egyptian thought and Vedic philosophy but also to the diversity of humankind's metaphysical traditions ranging from Celtic sacred topography and Medieval alchemy to the Kabbalah and Islamic astrology. His work presents us with a groundbreaking synthesis of lost wisdom once common to ancient cosmologies that will help us understand the significance of this transformative cosmic milestone. About the Author(s) of Galactic Alignment John Major Jenkins is a leading independent researcher on ancient Mesoamerican cosmology who has worked with the highland Tzutujil and Quiche Maya communities. He has presented his work at the Esalen Institute, Naropa University, the Institute of Maya Studies, and the Maya Calendar Congress, as well as on the Discovery Channel's "Places of Mystery" and National Public Radio's "Spirit and Mind." He currently resides in Boulder, Colorado. An Alignment is when a line forms on an X, Y, Z 3D axis... Think of a giant chakra system, the galactic Center is the Root Chakra, Plieades is the Crown Chakra, and the Earth is the Heart Chakra. All these things LINE UP... So many conjunctions happen, many occultations happen... but the event itself is an Alignment... Just look around... It is all ready all proven in many books and documentaries... Check my profile you will find the links if you actually try... and some of the bits of info are in the videos I have posted. I have studied this plenty... so why am I doing your leg work...LOL

Manjushri 2008-02-06T01:04:06Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#69252e11-5783-4ba7-a00c-d8150c29920d 2008-02-06T00:38:48Z 2008-02-06T00:38:48Z

spoken like a true countryman, if i may say so Will

Elo 2008-02-06T00:38:48Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#078d9413-e384-4fde-8b1a-994f563e2dcb 2008-02-05T23:21:22Z 2008-02-05T23:21:22Z

"A Winter Solstice Sun Aligns With the Galactic Center (that giant black hole =p) the Earth, and the Anti-Axis in Plieades once every 26,000 years (rounded way up)." By the way, the astronomical (and astrological) term is "conjunction", not alignment. You're talking about a conjunction of the sun and Sagittarius A*, right? Can you provide a reference for this?

Hoopes 2008-02-05T23:21:22Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2c9219fb-039e-4a68-be7a-5b216fcddef8 2008-02-05T22:54:03Z 2008-02-05T22:53:24Z

Om Manee Padme Hhum... expand my mind.

Mystica 2008-02-05T22:53:24Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#eab75876-c940-468a-858c-3b4d556e8634 2008-02-05T22:49:31Z 2008-02-05T22:49:31Z

<< The fact that colonization is the cause of their economic and cultural distress is not a good argument against them receiving foreign aid. But, as I think you mean to say, it should be free aid, no strings attached. >> no of course i wasnt saying they should not get aid, we most definatly owe at least this much to them as we are largely responsible for there currrent plight "we" being the entire western system that mercisly has exploited Africa for at least 200 years, we owe that at least that. As i said, 0.7 % of GDP is the figure recomended by Jeffry Sachs, world class economist and economic advistor to the UN. I think its over 20 yeras he would advocate would virtualy wipe out poverty in one swell swoop. As the US grows at an average of around 2% per anum, he shows that all this would mean is the US ariving at X economic wealth, only 3 months later than if would if it did not do this, thats all, something probably nobdoy would notice at all. Apart from the countless million in Africa who would live, and the billions who may start to have hope in a new Africa. But it should not be spent without strings. As i say many of the local goverments work hand in hand with corupt international market lending. It should be monitored by independant, UN style agencies of the style that Norean Hertz outlines in her book "I.O.U" She is brilliant by the way, a phd Cambridge economic proffesor who was in charge of privatising the Russian stock market only to resign in disgust as the world bank, or imf i cant remeber which, polocies which took no heed of what was best for russia or the common russian man but purely for the large international banking cartels. That will completly break the mould that is increasingly locking Africa into gigantic death spiral that looks set to collapse in entire human break down of an entire continent. Now let me ask you this, do you think that collosal break down is a work of god, a work of nature, or a work of the developed worlds governmental and business community ? I am not crying conspiracy, what i am saying is extreme greed, self interest and complete lack of responsibilty, above all exploitation. Im sorry but this stuff does make me made, the human suffering is worse than auschwits, this anger of course isnt directed at you Liv. And i tell you, it will spill out eventualy with disease looking at this from a purefly selfish prespective. the brains, means, methods are all redaly avilable if the people who can care to care. Its really that simple. And its starts with us caring deeply, not feeling guilty, or not neccesairly geting angry, but caring deeply. Ditto the enviroment, and ditto harmony between cultures and nations. I am sure we of really want these things, and when enough of us find the right part of us that does, the right change is gonna come. You know for all our bikering on this forum, all of us make me feel really hopful, because you can tell we all really want this better world, deep inside of us all. "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world shall know peace" Jimi Hendrix (sorry just cant stop it with that quote, damn its good!)

Elo 2008-02-05T22:49:31Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#dab0e483-388d-445b-ab35-ab8e3bee50b4 2008-02-05T22:21:38Z 2008-02-05T22:21:38Z

Grafting isn't really genetic manipulation. It is taking a piece of the tree you want to reproduce and putting it on to a different rootstock of the same species. It's how pretty much all fruit trees have been reproduced for many hundreds of years. But it is the same genes being reproduced, essentially cloning. ( i've grafted apples, it is not hard, and a lot of fun, and i highly recommend it) But i think every time a person saves seeds from the best of the crop, it is a form of genetic manipulation. Certainly making hybrids is, and that has been done for centuries and is a process that occurs naturally as well. I do not like most of the current applications of scientific genetic engineering though. I think there have been some good applications, in producing human insulin. for instance, so that diabetics don't have to use pig insulin. But i don't like monsanto's putting bt into corn, as , for one thing, it greatly increases the rate at which insects will develop a tolerance to one of our best organic pesticides. I really don't think they are that important to agricultural production. They are that important to the profit lines of some large corperations though. I think there should be more regulation of it. I think food production could be way more organic. IPM, integrated pest management, is the science of understanding the life cycle of the insect that is causing the problem, thus knowing exactly the best control to apply and exactly when to do it. Information is an essential nutrient. Also, I can see no good reason that all the nutrients in human waste is wasted or worse. I think it would be good if people everywhere grew more of their own food. People all over the world are abandoning the countryside for squalid slums, where they can no longer grow their own food. Healing local rural economies is very important. I think integrated systems and permacultural techniques are showing a lot more promise in this regard than the monoculture that has been the focus of attention up till now. There is a lot of ignorance as well as wisdom in third world farming techniques. We need, and are developing, new techniques that are hybrids of ancient local and scientific modern systems.

wil 2008-02-05T22:21:38Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#5375b0d3-e9ae-4347-813c-710ea41390b3 2008-02-05T22:20:43Z 2008-02-05T22:20:43Z

<<It should be national effort, on the part of nationally independent science groups. >> no on this i strongly disagree, it should be an INTERNATIONAL effort, as this effects all of us as it spills into the global food chain. Why should my childrens health be affected by George Bush's decisions. No thanks. I know, meant international to begin with. I fixed my typo in a post directly after the first. <<This is because they're a third world country, and their local economy ISN'T self sufficient. Period. >> no, not quite. Third world nations were largely independant untill the colonies came along and wiped out there traditional, ecologicaly based living off the land way of life.... >> That entire length of post you made about occupation and providing guns, and strangling their natural way of life, yes I can imagine that being a viable reason for the decay (and if I did my own research I wouldn't be surprised if it were all true.) The point I was making was that they need help from other countries to stay afloat. Even with your points considered, that still doesn't change the fact that third world countries are in a lot of economic trouble (regardless of who caused it) and need a LOT of help. The fact that colonization is the cause of their economic and cultural distress is not a good argument against them receiving foreign aid. But, as I think you mean to say, it should be free aid, no strings attached. <<Also micro credit schemes, small loans made to samll local farming/craft/business ideas have been very succesful in places like Pakistan and India.>> I actually remember reading something about that. I was interested to learn that a majority of those micro loans are to women! Which is surprising in countries like Pakistan in particular. As it turns out, women are very responsible for managing the household income in those countries, and so it makes sense that they are the ones learning how to use the micro loans. I thought that was very interesting.

Liv 2008-02-05T22:20:43Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#dcc188fa-55f9-4f48-a81f-eae27c4bff82 2008-02-05T22:05:54Z 2008-02-05T22:05:54Z

oh missed you there, ok we agree on this.

Elo 2008-02-05T22:05:54Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#23b2f664-eee2-4441-b13a-c54c76b6ea16 2008-02-05T21:50:27Z 2008-02-05T21:50:27Z

<<Genetic modification has actually been going on for hundreds of years, through the simple processes of grafting plants.>> thats like comparing hang gliding with nuclar powered space travel. There is an enomrous gap in the science neccasry for this and modern GM, about 150 years or in other word ALL of modern technolgy. <<But yes, regulation is very important ,>> and you can bet goverments that the Bush government will regulate very poorly, very unwisely, and with profit as its core motive. Short term profit at that. <<It should be national effort, on the part of nationally independent science groups. >> no on this i strongly disagree, it should be an INTERNATIONAL effort, as this effects all of us as it spills into the global food chain. Why should my childrens health be affected by George Bush's decisions. No thanks. <<This is because they're a third world country, and their local economy ISN'T self sufficient. Period. >> no, not quite. Third world nations were largely independant untill the colonies came along and wiped out there traditional, ecologicaly based living off the land way of life. Certianly they were self sufficient in seed. Throw in a few guns also for raw techological power at its most brutal in a complete power vacum in a lot of cases post war, add about 30 years of power games between cold war russia and america, then let the free markets have complete freedom to exploit with huge internationaly, initaly Arab/US bank loan money that charges around twice a year to some countries in interest payment on loans than is given to them in aid. Loans that are largely to corupt governemnts and often pocketed away in swiss bank accounts, or squandered on arms, knowingly by the finacial markets, but as countries rarely if ever go bankrupt, who cares ? The banks win as they get huge interest payments, the Investor of course wins, The Countries corrupt local leaders win huge sums they pocket through corrup leaders, but the locals starve as they are bleed to make payments over decades. And this problem is geting worse. Now the structure of there farming may well be further changed to accomdate for further US profit with GM seed. Of course they are not self sufficent, they were, but they are largely strangeled now. Many live in shanty town cities and the problem is becoming worse. We have to realise real development of the thrid world will come from the roots upwards, there is a tremendous amount of self enterprise if tapped into properly, given the right amount of cash, and the wisdome and balance of a changed system to monitor effectivly. <<When considering where to donate our money, perhaps it should go to organizations who focus more on providing the tech. and education third world countries need to grow food, and not just giving it to them. >> well i agree with you there but there but as well as that the whole finacial system has to be changed, the way it deals with the thrid world, trade regulations changed - they are stacked against the thrid world now, and much more done than the miserly 0.18% the US manages now, we need to all go for the 0.7% the UN has asked for. The UN by the way has long been for the give the teach the man to fish route. Also micro credit schemes, small loans made to samll local farming/craft/business ideas have been very succesful in places like Pakistan and India. Main thing is the cash and especialy this debt thing that is literaly strangeling the third world and totaly unexcusable and a travesty equal in fairness to that of slavery, but far more costly in life. << This is because they're a third world country, and their local economy ISN'T self sufficient. Period. Third world countries are highly dependent on richer nations to provide things like food and health aid because they don't have the economy to support it themselves. That doesn't mean we should stop giving it to them though. >> my undestanding is these countries were largely self sufficient

Elo 2008-02-05T21:50:27Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#3029b03a-c4ea-4527-af3c-76e285f10843 2008-02-05T21:15:31Z 2008-02-05T21:15:31Z

What I don't get is why every seems to think this movie is 'all that and a bag of chips'. Jorden Maxwell and Michael Tsarion have covered the Astro-Theology Much Much better. As far as the rest... Just check my profile I have, Why We Fight, Loose Change, Fog of War, and Money Masters, after watching those Zeitgeist seems very incomplete. I liked Zeitgeist and highly recommend it, however I feel there are much better sources on the info, and this info has been out for a very long time now. The popularity of the film, I think, shows that the general public is waking up and I take it as a very good sign. Om Mani Padme Hum

Manjushri 2008-02-05T21:15:31Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f6731dfc-94df-49b2-afa1-e9c893f94ec6 2008-02-05T21:06:51Z 2008-02-05T21:06:51Z

I meant to say *International* Effort on the part of nationally independent science groups.

Liv 2008-02-05T21:06:51Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#dbde3734-a04f-4961-a088-c592fba3f08c 2008-02-05T21:04:51Z 2008-02-05T21:04:51Z

Genetic modification has actually been going on for hundreds of years, through the simple processes of grafting plants. All of the food we eat these days is a result of human selection anyway. Its all genetically modified. And they're not splicing animal or fish genes into your food. They're using cross breeds and new techniques for implementing grafts on top of the biogenetics. I agree that caution must be exercised when dealing with these sorts of things. And its true, time will tell... As I mentioned, by 1970 (almost 40 years ago) Borlaug received the peace prize for providing food to those poor nations. I don't hear any of the nations he helped feed complain that their food is tainted or that its causing illness or harm on any level. (In fact, you can bet that he ate the food he helped grow throughout those years because there was nothing else to eat. He's 94 and kicking) But yes, regulation is very important , particularly when there is capitol gain to be made by selling food to other nations. But that's why the agricultural engineers work within those countries, planting the crops there. We're not just developing it all here in America and shipping it off for a profit. I do agree however, that America is not the candidate to take the reigns when it comes to developing these technologies. It should be national effort, on the part of nationally independent science groups. "Many in third world development have pointed to the fact that already some co-oporations are geting into a position where the third world depend on this seed as oppposed to there local economy being self sufficient." This is because they're a third world country, and their local economy ISN'T self sufficient. Period. Third world countries are highly dependent on richer nations to provide things like food and health aid because they don't have the economy to support it themselves. That doesn't mean we should stop giving it to them though. What it does mean is that there needs to be a bigger effort devoted to educating locals about the technology, and building the technological resources there so that one day that CAN be self sufficient. I do believe we should stop giving the man a fish, and that we should start teaching him how to fish. When considering where to donate our money, perhaps it should go to organizations who focus more on providing the tech. and education third world countries need to grow food, and not just giving it to them.

Liv 2008-02-05T21:04:51Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f9e53eb2-eb42-456f-933e-a80ed96113db 2008-02-05T20:39:31Z 2008-02-05T20:39:31Z

It was in 31st Centery BC he was completely off there... 3114BC to be precise..

Manjushri 2008-02-05T20:39:31Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#3986037a-01e6-44d7-8f21-3bef13e879ce 2008-02-05T20:36:27Z 2008-02-05T20:36:27Z

LOL now I am confuse.. you did say winter solstices so yeah 1 a year... I am silly =p

Manjushri 2008-02-05T20:36:27Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#9d3a3f5f-9bdf-4fdd-adbe-05fb558bb12f 2008-02-05T20:34:34Z 2008-02-05T20:34:34Z

Sirius-ly.... You are way confused on what you are saying... You are comparing Apples and Oranges and saying see they look different... Era is 36 years long... Solstice suns do pass through the Galactic Equator this full 36 years... actually 2 a Year silly... A Winter Solstice Sun Aligns With the Galactic Center (that giant black hole =p) the Earth, and the Anti-Axis in Plieades once every 26,000 years (rounded way up). 13,000 years ago(also rounded way up) the Summer Solstice Sun did the same thing...I hope this helps you...

Manjushri 2008-02-05T20:34:34Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#4ceeb1af-482f-4b41-b9d3-419f11b5665b 2008-02-05T20:28:04Z 2008-02-05T20:28:04Z

Elaborating more: In November 2004 a team of astronomers reported the discovery of the first well-confirmed intermediate-mass black hole in our Galaxy, orbiting three light-years from Sagittarius A*. This black hole of 1,300 solar masses is within a cluster of seven stars, possibly the remnant of a massive star cluster that has been stripped down by the Galactic Centre.[5][6] This observation may add support to the idea that supermassive black holes grow by absorbing nearby smaller black holes and stars. Coordinates (J2000): RA 17h 45m 40.045s Dec. −29.00775 degrees (About 10 degrees to the west of the center of the constellation Sagittarius, towards Scorpius) Yes that is the Galactic Center I keep mentioning... The southern solstice (the beginning of winter in the northern hemisphere, and of summer in the southern hemisphere) always falls around 21 December in the Gregorian calendar (around 11:13 UTC on 21 December 2012). The spot where the Sun then is between the stars slowly shifts between the stars, because of the precession of the equinoxes. In about 26,000 years that spot moves once around the whole sky (compared to the stars), roughly along the ecliptic (the annual path of the Sun between the stars in the sky), so the southern solstitial point moves through the Milky Way twice each 26,000 years. "The Milky Way has no very clear boundaries, but is on average about 12 degrees wide in the sky, and the solstitial point takes about 12°/360°*26000 = about 900 years to cover such a distance. The Milky Way has no clear central line either, so there is uncertainty about when the solstitial point crosses that central line. Different groups of people can each use reasonable definitions for the central line that yet deviate from one another. If we estimate (for example) that the uncertainty about the "best" central line of the Milky Way is half a degree (which is only a small fraction of the width of the Milky Way), then the corresponding uncertainty in the date at which the solstitial point crosses the central line is 0.5°/360°*26000 = about 36 years. The conjunction of the southern solstitial point and the Milky Way is therefore quite rare (it happens only once each about 13,000 years) but also lasts many years." Quoted from the 'Real Astrologer' page... I read through the whole thing... Seems he agrees with me too with "a southern solstitial point and the Milky Way is therefore quite rare (it happens only once each about 13,000 years)" As I had posted earlier the last Alignment of A Soltice Sun with the Galactic Center, the Earth and the Plieades was 13,000 years ago or so. It was the Summer Solstice Sun that time... Just scroll up the thread... =p He never denies any it, but makes several false statements that are just misleading at best or out and out lies at worst... Seems he can't get his mind around how a 'Primitive culture' could have made such calculations. "To correctly predict the date of a southern solstice 2367 years into the future in the 4th century BC, the Central Americans must then have had accurate records of observations of solstices and equinoxes from the preceding 2400 years, but no indications of such records for so many years have been found." Quoting him again, To prove both points...lol

Manjushri 2008-02-05T20:28:04Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e12b1d80-fbd2-49ed-8819-e70f6747abbf 2008-02-05T20:23:44Z 2008-02-05T20:23:44Z

Liv, i agree with a lot of what you say but have quite a problem with this "And as for these crops of genetically modified food in America, they're the most regulated crops in the world. " Regulated by whom ? Who apoints those bodies, the government, and as we have seen with the enviroment which scientist you apoint can considerably affect goverment bodies opinion. Havnt then bodies been already set up with the idea that GM is Ok because the government and commerce says it is, not because science says it is. Many top scientist dont belive the science is in yet, certainly not in enough to have a giant world experiment with this. I quote James Martin, Oxford university Scientist Phd and leader of the 21st centuray Institute - " At prsent in our knowledge of gene modificatin, we play like a chimpanzee at a grand piano. In a few decades, we might become like Rachmnaninoff. The potnetial benifits of gene modification are large, but we need to proceed with the cauttion of a test pilot and with the deepest respect for nature. We need comprehensive date collection and the best cholarship possible to make these complex and ar reaching decisions." I propose that the US government does not have the caution of a test pilot. I also think that most of the corporations developing this have the profit motive at core, nothing wrong with that, but in a world were international market regulations have been virtualy wiped out, particularly in regard to Africa, what is going to dictate how this is used. Many in third world development have pointed to the fact that already some co-oporations are geting into a position where the third world depend on this seed as oppposed to there local economy being self sufficient. There is a massive need to properly regulate this stuff and quite frankly the US government is not responsible enough. Look at what it was saying about global warming just 5 years ago, that it was a figment of an over active hippy imagination. There are much better ways to stop starvation in the third world, I highly recomend Jeffry Sachs "The End of Poverty" and Norena Hertz " I.O.U" now them two are experts in the extreme with to me a very balanced outlook.

Elo 2008-02-05T20:23:44Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7fb6e487-4478-4ac8-a4ff-9a052f740d8e 2008-02-05T20:18:51Z 2008-02-05T20:18:51Z

"The Galactic Alignment is the alignment of the December solstice sun with the Galactic equator. " Right. The galactic *equator* (a line) is not the same thing as the Galactic "center" (a point). "Because the sun is one-half of a degree wide, it will take the December solstice sun 36 years to precess through the Galactic equator " Yes. That's 36 years of winter solstices, one each year. "The winter solstice sun is 1 DAY and it is only completely Aligned one day with the Galatic Center" I don't know what you mean by "completely aligned". According to Jenkins' website, the alignment of the galactic equator with the center of the winter solstice sun happened in 1998. There is a winter solstice every year. That means an "alignment" each year for 36 years, not something that occurs on only one day. Again, this an alignment with the galactic *equator*, not the galactic *center*, that has been taking place each year since 1980. (If Jenkins' information is correct.)

Hoopes 2008-02-05T20:18:51Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#568cc386-2c3c-44de-9a8f-c0eb6c3154cb 2008-02-05T19:57:13Z 2008-02-05T19:57:13Z

" It is important to define what the Galactic Alignment is in precise astronomical terms. (See the Glossary below for terms.) The Galactic Alignment is the alignment of the December solstice sun with the Galactic equator. This alignment occurs as a result of the precession of the equinoxes. Precession is caused by the earth wobbling very slowly on its axis and shifts the position of the equinoxes and solstices one degree every 71.5 years. Because the sun is one-half of a degree wide, it will take the December solstice sun 36 years to precess through the Galactic equator (see diagram below). The precise alignment of the solstice point (the precise center-point of the body of the sun as viewed from earth) with the Galactic equator was calculated to occur in 1998 (Jean Meeus, Mathematical Astronomy Morsels, 1997). Thus, the Galactic Alignment "zone" is 1998 +/- 18 years = 1980 - 2016. This is "era-2012." This Galactic Alignment occurs only once every 26,000 years, and was what the ancient Maya were pointing to with the 2012 end-date of their Long Count calendar. " That quote if from the page http://alignment2012.com/whatisGA.htm that you posted... note the last sentence. You are confusing the Alignment with the ERA... The winter solstice sun is 1 DAY and it is only completely Aligned one day with the Galatic Center, the Earth and the Anti-Axis in Pleiades... read more, my friend... your so close to understanding it...

Manjushri 2008-02-05T19:57:13Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#bc26d0ca-8801-4140-9558-f9bcf59de7c7 2008-02-05T19:49:04Z 2008-02-05T19:49:04Z

Read his Maya Cosmogenesis 2012: The True Meaning of the Maya Calendar End-Date I have read all his books and you will find he agrees with me...

Manjushri 2008-02-05T19:49:04Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#442ebe0a-2bb7-450b-9263-7f630ed017d6 2008-02-05T19:17:51Z 2008-02-05T19:17:51Z

Loving the planet ? Does that include loving the people on it? You do know that changing all of our crops over to organic would mean mass starvation around the planet, don't you? The only reason we have enough food to feed the people here in america alone is because we have genetically modified species that survive harsher weather and provide higher yields per acre. It's not about making our the apples shinier. "You can't build a peaceful world on empty stomachs and human misery." - Norman Borlaug Norman Borlaug, agricultural scientist. He traveled to mexico, india, china, and africa and introduced weather, environment, and pestilence resistant strains of rice and grain that quadrupled existing crops and created numerous other crops where previously impossible, and provided enough food for millions of poor people at a time. He won the 1970 nobel peace prize, where they approximated that by then his hand in developing these foods saved nearly a BILLION lives. A billion people saved from certain starvation, and none of them were white male bankers. A Billion of your poor and homeless people that you care about so much would be starved to death if it wasn't for the evils of inorganic foods. Or maybe you also think we should start regulating the population? That would save mother earth. Maybe we should stop performing life saving surgery, maybe we should shut down hospitals entirely! That'll cut down on mouths to feed. Or y'know, maybe limiting families to just one baby otherwise they get fined... that works great in China I hear. Oh and war! War gets rid of a lot of people, lets have some more of that! And as for these crops of genetically modified food in America, they're the most regulated crops in the world. This includes regulation by the EPA and the USDA to monitor the effects of these crops on the environment they're being grown in, and on the effects the use of these foods has on people. But I'm sure there's some conspiracy theory out there that says these institutions are corrupt. Let's all complain about. I'm going to share a quote from one of my favorite libertarians. "Why is anyone fighting food advance? A very small percentage of the world's population is fortunate enough to have the luxury of turning down food. The rest of the world spends most of its time trying to get *any* food. Y'know why? Technological problems. They've got dirt, they've got water, they've got sun. They lack the technical ability to till and rich the soil, they lack the machines to plant enough to feed their families, they lack the hybrid plants that produce more food per acre. We need to spread all the technology all we can so all people everywhere can deal with the problem of too much food. We can't start getting picky because *we've* got enough food. That's just self centered and racist. Unless you and yours are starving, You need to Shut. The fuck. Up." - Penn Gillet. The world is not as simple as "If we stop putting chemicals in all our stuff the world will be at peace! If we shut down the 7or 8 bankers who rule the world everything will be all better!" There are consequences for every action, including the ones we think are well intentioned. Implement communism, and you tell man kind that they have a cap on life imposed by someone else, which just breeds anger and corruption. Switch to all organic food and starve 1/3 of the world's population (That's right, as of today there are only enough crops to feed 4 billion people, there are over 6 billion people on earth. Take away all the inorganic crops out there, and that number goes down even further) Remove plastics from the market and suddenly technology used to save lives in hospitals and to improve the quality of life when it comes to sanitation disappears, we'd all suffer and die of the plague. Yes, its true we need to stop consuming so much oil. Yes we need to keep our government, political, and economic leaders in check. But what makes you think that harmony with the earth and all her people is as simple as not using inorganic material or employing communism? And if you want Earth to return to a time where technology didn't allow human beings to surpass natural food generation, didn't allow humans to survive severe illnesses, didn't allow us to live in sanitary environments, I suggest you round 2 or 3 billion people (such as yourself) who are willing to die on the spot to give the rest of humanity a chance.

Liv 2008-02-05T19:17:51Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#8b79a710-359b-4336-8fca-f246944be945 2008-02-05T18:59:26Z 2008-02-05T18:59:26Z

John Major Jenkins identifies an "era 2012" as a 36-year period that runs from 1980 - 2016 . What is the Galactic Alignment? http://alignment2012.com/whatisGA.htm According to his research, "The precise alignment of the solstice point (the precise center-point of the body of the sun as viewed from earth) with the Galactic equator was calculated to occur in 1998." Note that this is an alignment with the galactic *equator*, which is different from the galactic center. Some additional information from a professional astronomer: http://www.astro.uu.nl/~strous/AA/en/2012.html The "alignment" that you describe sounds as if you mean the conjunction of the winter solstice sun with Sagittarius A* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_A* Do you know when (or how often) that happens?

Hoopes 2008-02-05T18:59:26Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#4c09122f-3c38-44d1-863f-2600a9490ac3 2008-02-05T16:37:41Z 2008-02-05T16:31:10Z

Liv, it is good to be informed. Too many people believe the media and phony T.V. shows they watch. Too many of us were conditioned to believe that everything we are taught in school is Truth, when in fact it is not. Too many people are walking around pretending their movie-stars priding themselves on "things". Open your eyes girl. Everything "conspires" in one way or another. The shit that is going down with our non-elected governments, holy see, War-lords and big bankers are not "theories". It is fact. I quoted that "No -one today can fully be 100 percent biodegradable" because it is a sad fact resluting from the mass consumerism and pollution that is rampant on this planet. What we breathe is not 100 clean. Trace particles of plastics, metals etc are breathed in by humans everyday because of garabage dumps and huge industrial parks all over the planet. As human beings we are responsible for what we contribute and put into our bodies, dump into the ground, but it's hard to stay away from the air pollution created by others. That's why it's sad. Plastic alone is NOT bio-degradable period. No matter how minute you burn the damned stuff. The black particles from burned plastic will take hundreds of thousands of years to FULLY bio-degrade. Grow up Liv. Your immature. When we buy inorganic materials and support the facade, we are lending to its cancer. For every CHEMICAL, PRESERVATIVE, COLOR, GENETICALLY MODIFIED FOOD that is written on the packages of EVERYTHING we buy (and NOT written there), that went into PRODUCING the plastic containers and bags to the actual in-organic product itself, there is a laboratory or factory attached to each substance (chemical, preservative, color #, GMF) polluting our rivers, streams, lakes and bodies - ALL for the sake of commerce and economic greatness. Liv, alot of Truths today are half truths. Especially the ones you learn in school, collage and University. Like I said before, there are very few people who are devoted enough to this planet to really stop their consumerism, gluttony, and wanton lifestyle and really create change. It takes great strength and courage to do this, but it is what is very needed if we really want to create a heaven here on Earth - healthy - free of pollution - free of war.

Mystica 2008-02-05T16:31:10Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e0a3dbb8-b578-47bb-8c0f-5f87e96712c3 2008-02-05T12:20:50Z 2008-02-05T12:20:50Z

Jesus Mystica, you sure like to preach a good old surmon dont u ? and your saying that Liv is lecturing people ! Marxisim has never worked in aplication because people and there desiries are not equal. You will always find some people pushing the boat out more, and others more easily content. However free market explotation without ANY regulation of checks is an extreme that promotes greed as in the current US system. Marxisim is as extreme in ideology as the US's new Neo Con version of unregluated capatlisim is. To me extremes do not a happy country make, and on that note the buddhist doctrine that "the middle way is the way" is surely a wise stance. I think Namoi Klien shows how well the free market is being exploited in he book shock doctrine - but this is NOT a critique of capatilism rather capatalisim unchecked without control. I suggest a balance, as in countries like say Germany, Sweeden, Finland, Norway and Spain is best. And on the subject of enviroment Mystica, i dont think lecturing people to go back to bucket and water, and cavemen existance is going to work, sorry it just is not. However there is a hell of a lot of science now being developed that has potential to massivly curb our CO2 emmisions, with even better technology just on the horozion. Check out James Martins "The meaning of the 21st Century" him and other leading scientists assosciated with is institute are at the cutting edge of this work. In another 40 years we will most likely have cold water fusion, unlimited extremely cheap, completly clean energy. If there was the political will at the top to implenet these new technolgies we would be ok, that poltical will i belive is coming soon when there is a crticial mass wanting these things enough, we are geting close now. Massive shifts in priortites are neccessary now, yes Mystica, but I doubt very much your brand of "change to be as pure as a saint, or burn in hell forever" type of lecturers will do the job in shifting peoples attitudes.

Elo 2008-02-05T12:20:50Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#4f6fbf18-eff2-45c9-a2e9-3cc740799267 2008-02-05T11:24:33Z 2008-02-05T11:24:33Z

"No one today can fully be 100 percent biodegradable..." I'm not sure who said that, but i think it is very funny.

wil 2008-02-05T11:24:33Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#72786208-b98d-4d6f-a888-e8b9c6eeb41b 2008-02-05T09:58:20Z 2008-02-05T09:58:20Z

Just speculating, but this (interest on credit) would go some way to explaining why: In terms of financial wealth, the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 39.7%. http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

$item.owner.firstName 2008-02-05T09:58:20Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#3c6cd744-cc6b-4768-b325-8a186b95a021 2008-02-05T09:37:18Z 2008-02-05T09:37:18Z

You don’t need a movie to tell you that the banks do, effectively, print their own money. Think about it. They do this, legally, through the issuing of credit. Every time someone takes out a credit card, uses it and incurs the interest rate - often very high (mine is 17%) - they effectively create money out of thin air and on paper (it’s not interest on capital investment). In this way they inflate the money supply. Money Supply See http://wfhummel.cnchost.com/moneysupply.html “An important shortcoming of the Fed's definition is that it ignores lines of credit which can be exercised at the discretion of the borrower. Firms often hold substantial lines of credit from their banks, which they can use on short notice. Likewise consumers hold lines of credit in their credit card accounts that are just as useful for purchases as checking accounts or the currency in their wallets. Lines of credit increase liquidity, which is ultimately what counts in terms of enhancing aggregate demand.”

$item.owner.firstName 2008-02-05T09:37:18Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2d8f552b-7d65-4eae-8126-997d7b6c56ef 2008-02-05T05:14:58Z 2008-02-05T05:14:58Z

"No one today can fully be 100 percent biodegradable..." Then why do you condemn me and the rest of us for it? I'm not a banker. (Oh shit... my lip gloss is 100% natural, but its not organic. Guess I should be shot) You've launched personal attacks on me, based on assumption you make up in your head. If that's an example of how you reason things... As for defending bankers... I never did anything of the sort. I simply said that what Zeitgeist was saying was bent. Half truth, sensationalized. There is truth to the fact that our financial system is corrupt. But not the way Zeitgeist put it. I've been trying to say it through out this argument if you'd listen. Just because I don't agree 100% you start spewing other endless conspiracies. Like I'm any more likely to believe it. Is that how you respond to adversity? If one bent up story doesn't work, throw some more at them! I use the term 'conspiracy theories' like a dirty word not because I think bankers' shit smells like roses, but because every time I research the basis for a conspiracy theory all I find are other conspiracy theories as a source, and the sources those theories use are other conspiracy theory sources, and when you get deep enough all you find are sources that are used to twist words and take things out of context. Yes... things are fucked up. But you don't need the crazy Big Brother stories that conspiracy theories put forth to know that. In fact, if you try showing this stuff to average people, they're just gonna go run to the critics looking for someone to tell them its not true, and the debunkers will do it with ease. I'm saying show them the truth, the stuff you can back up. Stuff debunkers can't chew and spit out in five minutes. Bankers are born rich, they don't work hard for it. I know that much, I wasn't born yesterday. I was talking about the 9-5ers, and the people who work at minimum wage jobs because they can't afford an education to get past that, but are trying hard anyway. The moms and dads who stay at home and take responsibility for bringing up their children right, and for the other moms and dads who try and scramble together a living to make a family work. But y'know... I guess not good enough for you either. (Oh no! I'm receive a paycheck and I only donate 5% of it to charity? Guess I should go jump off a cliff) Talk about feigned affection... Guess I should give my entire paycheck to the government, so they can spread it out equally amongst the people. Because if the world worked that way we'd all be equal and happy and the government would never be able to take advantage of us... Just like it is in Cuba! "You tell people to get up off the couch like you have authority and know better." "It's time to chop the wood and carry the water." "YOU have alot to learn." "Rebuke the Rich" "Liv herself contributes alot to the pollution on this planet...She ...uses make-up" "make a difference on this planet and help the homeless and poor" ... "Liv...prides herself on images of importance because she helps the homeless"

Liv 2008-02-05T05:14:58Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#0bae1906-0c46-4a6d-b563-305b898827cb 2008-02-04T23:32:12Z 2008-02-04T23:32:12Z

and to elaborate more... what is meant by 'passes through' is a little vague. It actually Aligns with the Galactic Center, Earth, and the Anti-Center which is in the Pleiades star cluster... The sun itself does pass through various parts of the area around the Galactic Center more often... But the Alignment with Galactic Center on they day of the Winter Solstice Sun is a cosmic event that only happens once every 25,627... or if you go with inaccurate western Julian or Gregorian Calendars 25,800, 25,750. There are 4 different numbers that the experts, that have studied there whole lives, have come up with. They all admit the inaccuracy of their numbers. 25,627 is based on the highly accurate Mayan Calendars (there are over 22 different calendars). Most people like to round up to 26,000.... OM MANI PADME HUM OM AH RA PA TSA NA DHEE DHEE DHEE

Manjushri 2008-02-04T23:32:12Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#32d96b6e-b164-407f-9b4d-df3c5313ada2 2008-02-04T21:28:18Z 2008-02-04T21:28:18Z

Yes it is... do yours....lol the Summer Solstice Sun passes through the Galactic Center every 25,627 years as well... 13000 years ago or so... was when the Summber Solstice Sun passed throught the Galactic Center... Now it is the Winter Solstice Suns turn... Seriously look it up... every body look it...lol

Manjushri 2008-02-04T21:28:18Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#146f3111-6e41-487a-bd24-6be05394e7b0 2008-02-04T19:10:59Z 2008-02-04T18:48:27Z

I don't hate anyone. (sigh) I am outspoken. My words do not come from a place of hatred. They come from a place of deep caring...whether or not you want to believe it. Liv... I'm glad to hear that you use Burt's Bees. They are not organic of course. Like so many things you find on the shelves in "Health Food Stores" - they are not healthful - such a scam. I am sooo tired of all the poisons that we put into our bodies and into this Earth. It saddens me that there are a lot of "lip-service" from politicians concerning "a better world" vision from the Higher Class, but there is not nearly enough Action taken toward this. Why? Because this action alone would put alot of corporations out of business. No one today can fully be 100 percent biodegradable thanks to Industrialization and greedy Bankers. The Bankers that you so defend are working hard....yes very hard.... at destroying this planet for selfish gain without care about the environmental and humanitary consequences of such gluttony. I use organic plant based make-up. I use charcol from my wood stove and carve it into thin strips for eye-liner - beets and spirulina when I wear makeup, which is NOT often. You know.... so many people are frightened off by the term Communism because of puppets and infiltrates like Hitler and Mao, but Marx really seemed to know what he was talking about. Yesterday in the Politics Tribe I was researching the history of Politics and came across something that Marx wrote. I really like his vision. It really was about Communal living. Sharing the wealth. Rich people don't want that. Our economic system is unbalanced. A famous actor gets paid 5 Million to do a movie, reading lines and shit.... and the vegetable farmer gets paid (???) for his hard endless days of toil. Where is the equality in this world system? I think people need to stop filling themselves to the point of fatness. Our desire to have a fanciful monetary system is the result of pure gluttony - Which is killing this planet on so many levels. Period. The only way I see that we can bring down this corrupt and ruthless system is by NOT supporting it as much as possible. But there are very very few, who are brave enough to do so. Liv what is your idea of "working hard"? You use the term "conspiracy theory" like as if the powers that be (mighty bankers) are so holy and would never ever lie, cheat, kill and over take people's liberties in order to become the most powerful and rich dominating with their phony idea of democracy. Girlfriend..... YOU have alot to learn. You tell people to get up off the couch like you have authority and know better. It's time for all of us to get up off our fat assess for sure and stop consuming so much shit. Realize that the Law of Nature is much more powerful than the Law of Court. We can help this planet by cleansing ourselves first. Lead by example. Not thru lip-service, or feigned affection. If you want to really make a difference on this planet and help the homeless and poor, like I said before, "Rebuke the Rich". No wonder Jesus over-turned the money lenders tables! It hurts to see such hypocrasy in this world..... First step in self realization: Stop lying to yourself.

Mystica 2008-02-04T18:48:27Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ffa25787-d392-47f2-a2f4-172d8d5a6727 2008-02-04T17:04:39Z 2008-02-04T17:04:39Z

You have GOT to be kidding me... *sigh* Yeah... I saw the whole country this summer for the first time. It took me a month. I car-pooled the whole way in a tiny fuel efficient car. I use organic make up like burts bees. I eat low fat foods and read the label of everything that goes into my body. At the moment I'm wearing 0% petroleum based clothing, (I don't think I've owned anything polyester since I was 13) and I've already expressed that I don't consider myself any more or less important than anyone else. I'm not sticking up for the elite. I'm sticking up for anyone who works hard for what they've got. It appears that you just want to think that I'm a bad person because I disagree with conspiracy theories. And y'know... the majority of the population do the things you want to condemn me for. How are you going to help them if you hate them so much?

Liv 2008-02-04T17:04:39Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#190f2818-7035-4241-a21b-a85e03d957b0 2008-02-04T15:32:59Z 2008-02-04T15:28:39Z

Wil.... Many of us have been working for years in researching. She is not so special because she can cleverly word herself. Liv is denying the full Truth of a corrupt system by pointing out small tiny sections of Zeitgesit and elaborating on them influenced by respectable professors of "modern economics". Who writes the rosey painted rules for todays econimcs? As far as I can tell Liv herself contributes alot to the pollution on this planet, unlike her proposed image of "doing so much for the community". She flies jets around the world, uses make-up, eats fattening inorganic foods, wears polyester, prides herself on images of importance because she helps the homeless and feels she is enlightened when she sticks up for the elite. It's time to chop the wood and carry the water.

Mystica 2008-02-04T15:28:39Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7679754f-9840-412f-949e-70db571fffea 2008-02-04T14:58:09Z 2008-02-04T14:58:09Z

"On that day the Winter Solstice Sun will pass through the Galactic Center, an event that only happens once every 25,627." That ain't so. Do your research.

Hoopes 2008-02-04T14:58:09Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#42d61b4f-e473-47e9-8bfc-ee82552a15a0 2008-02-04T03:45:28Z 2008-02-04T03:37:16Z

The greatest thing, and the only thing, that has ever expanded human consciousness is knowing all aspects of consciousness: us, them, you, me, .... I AM - We Are. The reality is, is that as we stand where we are right now, every subject coming to us omni-directionally is "One and Many" things to be observed. The Truth does not destroy, but enlighten. If I witness that a force is destroying this planet I will comment and take action as a result of my innate reasoning of 'fight or flight' leaning towards resting in a state of peace, significant of my desire for unification. Without duality, either pole would not exist to manifest the creation that we are in this Universe. I witness at this time that there are certain individuals who use religion and blood line as a grave excuse to have privy access to most all the money vaults in the World, at the expence of all our natural resources. I am in my truth witnessing wires, crossing us so much that we have no real privacy or safety. I feel terrorized by the word terror blatently thrown about thru out the whole WWW. As I recognize that we are all One on this planet, it doesn't give these big bankers the right to buckle up and cash in on the War machine. As they do. It is not "I" that is standing in those offices and passing large handfulls of money around. In that light I cannot say that the big Lawyers and Bankers are me. I am here.... praying for peace, while they are there, bombing for peace. Life is a paradox. OK, yes I see that they are me, and I am you, and lala la la tra la lee li...... I also see something that does not jive well with my electro-magnetic composition in that certain mass actions and contaminating pollutants orhcestrated by certain human beings (clans if you will) are harming me/us because of war and greed for mammoth power and mammon. Of course, respectively, we cannot deny the Oneness of it all, sure..... but at the same time we cannot deny the multiplicity of action either. That is what makes us so diverse. We are a "unifying" process, NOT 'unified'. Yet we are both - at the same time. The more we see what leads us to unity and resolve, the more we reject the false actions of that which is disharmonic to the whole. That's only natural. Wil, it's not just a 2012 shift.... the shift is happening NOW as we speak - at, oh, say around 186,000 miles per second.

Mystica 2008-02-04T03:37:16Z Manjushri http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7f3bd5ab-ecaf-46ae-bcbb-9ed3b4c2c30b 2008-02-04T01:03:31Z 2008-02-04T01:03:31Z

That simple question has a very complicated answer. Both dates are related to the precession of the equinoxes. 12.21.2012 is the end of the Baktun Long Count. A period of 13 Baktuns or 5,125.36 years is indicated on creation monuments as one 'World Age', 5 such 'World Ages' or about 25,627 years is equal to one full precession. It is not the end of the Mayan Calendar, but a specific marker. On that day the Winter Solstice Sun will pass through the Galactic Center, an event that only happens once every 25,627. The Mayans were incredibly accurate... The main problem being the actual beginning of the Age of Aquarius. First the stars are not in the same place they were 26,000 ago, and the Zodiac was very different as well. The modern Zodiac is based on 12 signs, but there is a 13th sign known in ancient times, Ophiuchus or the Serpent Bearer. IF you use 26,000 years for 1 precession and divide that by 12 for the number of the Zodiacal signs you will get 2166.6, using 25,800 you will get 2150. The Birth of Jesus is the start of the western Gregorian Calendar. Jesus was the Avatar for the Sign of Pisces, so starting at the year 0 AD and then adding the time of one Age you will get the year the Age of Aquarius will begin... As you see, 2150 is a good guess... IF you use only 12 signs... IF you use 13 signs you will get 26000/13=2000, 25800/13=1984, 25750/13=1980. So yes they are related... One is highly accurate, has undergone no major changes, and has a reset to realign with the stars every 52 years... That would be the Mayan Calendar... The other is highly inaccurate, based on calendars no longer in use, has undergone major changes many times, and never resets to keep up with the movement of the stars... That would be the western calendars. I hope that spurs more research and answers a question everyone seemed to ignore to debate the reference movie. On that note.... ZEITGEIST or the Spirit of the Age is only a small part of a huge picture. To me, it did seem to be a few truths and half-truths strung together with lies and negative view points. In my opinion the overall effect was negative and conveys a sense of hopelessness. Nothing can be further from the truth. We create our Reality... Do not let anything keep you from creating a positive world that we can all enjoy, especially fear. Fear is the mind killer. WE CAN AND WE WILL!!! OM MANI PADME HUM Feel free to use the links in my profile to help in you research.

Manjushri 2008-02-04T01:03:31Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#5a78cb5e-d77e-40f1-a94f-bed253f079f4 2008-02-03T16:18:04Z 2008-02-03T16:18:04Z

Amen, Wil.

Liv 2008-02-03T16:18:04Z Larry http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#cca08d14-03b0-40ee-a9e9-93989ca1683f 2008-02-03T14:31:16Z 2008-02-03T14:31:16Z

Isn't it enough for you to know that religious fanatics conspired to hijack planes and fly them into our civilian buildings? >> It's not enough for me. As for 9/11, the conspiracy theories may not have everything right, but that doesn't make the official version true either.

Larry 2008-02-03T14:31:16Z Psi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7fb0a3ad-91da-413b-9ae5-4527a9fa4148 2008-02-03T12:08:35Z 2008-02-03T12:08:35Z

Debunkers debunking debunking.......... Debunk-huggers hugging in debunk......... Hugged debunkers, debunk-hugging.......... Give a debunker a hug today!

Psi 2008-02-03T12:08:35Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#907c62c8-304d-4b89-ab74-fda95eb0c863 2008-02-03T10:19:40Z 2008-02-03T10:19:40Z

I have been thinking lately that the only change in human consciousness needed for the 2012 shift is the ending of our dualistic, us/them thinking patterns in favor of a level of consciousness that experiences the world as a unified process.

wil 2008-02-03T10:19:40Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#08e76345-6c71-4753-a75d-ac20dfefa4e3 2008-02-03T08:33:05Z 2008-02-03T08:33:05Z

Liv actually did work on this topic, instead of cut and pasting tired old material that has been passed around the globe a thousand times, or making crude ad hominem attacks.

wil 2008-02-03T08:33:05Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ceab64fe-d5e6-4ab7-af5b-379550553ae7 2008-02-03T06:58:32Z 2008-02-03T06:58:32Z

Yeah... well if you actually looked at my sources, they're posted by economics professors, and their sources are listed as well which range from things like New York Times articles, current financial text books, and... oh my goodness, the same sources used in zeitgeist? They used the same books and authors from zeitgeist to debunk zeitgeist? How can that be?? Well, its because whoever uses sources can take the words they find in relevant sources, and twist them or use them out of context to make it sound like the text supports a theory, when in actuality it may really be saying something very different. I wonder Mystica, did you read my research? Even some of the quotes you gave were written well before the Federal Reserve act was put in place to keep bankers in check. Quotes taken from a time when a Central Banking system existed that was way too powerful. So of course they're going to be saying that the central bank is detrimental to our democracy... because no laws were put in place to check it yet. That's essentially what the Fed. Res. Act was meant to do. And it wasn't perfect, it still isn't perfect, I'm sure... but its in place and has been revised and amended over the years to try and make it better. Now, I'm not saying that EVERYTHING in zeitgeist was wrong. I don't have time to research every little piece of it. I'm saying that the parts I personally researched were a WAY skewed version of reality. And really, when this thing gets around, it'll get people to pay attention, to start looking for answers, that's true... But zeitgeist bends the facts so much, that Debunkers are just going to come out with opposing opinions that are a lot closer to the truth, and people will hear those and just go right back to believing whatever comes easiest. What I mean to say, above all, is that if you want to spread around ideas that will get people to change their ways, its going to have to be plain and simple, straight and solid. Not all twisted and molded into half-truths. It has to be stuff thats hard to dispute, that you can't just gloss over with a quick debunk, something you can prove to be true, otherwise it won't sink in. And as for trusting your sources... the first source for The Fed Reserve part of zeitgeist is James Perloff, the same guy who's advocating the abolition of Evolution in our education system because he thinks it makes people lose respect for the bible, which is what he thinks to be our one and only moral compass. You trust that guy? There really are a couple credible sources there listed on the site, a lot more of other conspiracy theory books though. All of which is really just more of taking truth, and skewing it to fit what you want it be, and then coming to your on conclusion based on the sources you took out of context. Also, for the record... Don't assume anything about me. I support having armies to defend out country. I do not support invading, at all. I make a very moderate income, and I work hard for everything I have, and I even support my family once in a while who are experiencing hard times. I take public transportation half of the way to work every day, and then walk the last mile. I do the same thing on my way back. I donate blood. I donate my crafts. I donate money to the homeless. I volunteer at inner city community centers. I saw 9-11 with my own eyes. I have friends who lost parents. In fact, when I turn my head 90 degrees from where I'm sitting at this very moment, I can see ground zero, and the spot where the towers once stood. And I don't need any fucked up conspiracy theories telling me that the government planned it from the start. Isn't it enough for you to know that religious fanatics conspired to hijack planes and fly them into our civilian buildings? That's not enough to make you angry? It has to be about our government planning it for it to be worth while? Cuz see... it pisses me off just the way it really happened. Yes, the president used that raw emotion in everyone by twisting the facts to give him a reason to invade the middle east. He bent the truth to make it sound like we had enough reason to start a war, because he thought it was the right thing to do. Funny... zeitgeist twists the facts too, because it wants to invoke those emotions in people, because it the creator of it thinks its the right thing to do... I'm angry and scared enough without all the lies being fed to me. From zeitgeist, or from the president, or the media. I'm sick of all of it. Believe whatever it is you want to. Swallow whatever crap tastes best. I'm doing my part without sampling the bullshit buffet.

Liv 2008-02-03T06:58:32Z Mystica http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2ef9865a-9a80-46e2-99d1-ded565f276e5 2008-02-03T01:56:07Z 2008-02-03T01:50:31Z

I agree with you Psi. "Conspiring to subvert the will of the people is exactly what has been going on for hundreds of years and always by the same or associated groups with the same agendas. And always the result has been the same - wars, rigged elections, financial losses and economic depressions, further centralised systems, a dumbing-down of the populace and an increase in the wealth of an elite and their supporters at the cost to the mass of population and the environment. " SOOoooo True! I wonder where Liv gets her information from? Does she support the army? Does she pride herself with delusions of grand success? Is her source a trusted one? What "light" (as David puts it) is she showing when she quotes from sites that are not trustworthy and fully honest? omg.... How can anyone trust the Interntaional Bankers agenda? If those bankers were good people, there wouldn't BE any poor people. (by the way, for those of you who pride yourself on "giving to the poor", I ask you: How much pollution do you generate a year to amass your wealth?) This planet would be a garden of beauty, not a cesspool of war and garbage dumps if it were not for the sham of money & politics. This is an interesting article: http://www.michaeljournal.org/plenty49.htm The Federal Reserve Banks are the agents of the foreign central banks. In 1913 when the Federal Reserve Act was fraudulently pushed through Congress, Congressman Charles Lindbergh stated: "This Act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth....When the President signs this Act, the invisible government by the money power, proven to exist by the Money Trust Investigation, will be legalized....The new law will create inflation whenever the trust wants inflation....From now on, depression will be scientifically created." It's unfortunate, but young people in the United States are not taught (in government's schools) the history and operation of their country's most powerful financial institution, The Federal Reserve System. Created in 1910, codified by Congress in 1913 (along with the personal income tax), this "system" facilitated the US government's ability to inflame the nation's citizens for the purpose of supporting the European war of 1914-1918 (World War I). CENTRAL BANKING: The meaning of Central Bank: *** A "nation's principal monetary authority", such as the Federal Reserve Bank, which regulates the money supply and credit, issues currency, and manages the rate of exchange. http://www.answers.com/topic/central-bank?cat=biz-fin *** The adoption of "central banking", a concept indispensible to enforcing policies determined by big central government, is as old as Alexander Hamilton and The Federalists. Central banking has been tried and thwarted in the past. Alexander Hamilton wanted a big, expansive and intrusive central government that would centrally plan the economy and pursue "imperial glory" in foreign affairs. He wanted America to imitate the British empire. In order to achieve this, he knew that a government-run bank would be necessary. Jefferson, on the other hand, believed that the sole purpose of government was to protect the lives, liberty and property of the people, and that such a bank would be a danger to liberty. The two men debated the issue in long essays submitted to President George Washington, who eventually adopted the position of his fellow Federalist, Hamilton. (The Federalists in Congress played a role by passing legislation that enlarged the District of Columbia so that it would be adjacent to Washington’s property on the Potomac River. They had blocked Washington’s request for this until he signed the bank bill.) The Hamiltonian position has prevailed for several generations now, making a complete mockery of the Constitution itself. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ QUOTES Here are some more quotes from reputable men regarding the International Bankers: "Examining the organization and function of the Federal Reserve Banks, and applying the relevant factors, we conclude that the Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of the FTCA, but are independent, privately-owned and locally controlled corporations." [Lewis vs. U.S., 680 F. 2d 1239, 1241] "We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are U.S. government institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies; domestic swindlers, rich and predatory money lenders which prey upon the people of the united States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers. The Federal Reserve Banks are the agents of the foreign central banks. The truth is the Federal Reserve Board has usurped the Government of the United States by the arrogant credit monopoly which operates the Federal Reserve Board." - Congressman Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the House Banking & Currency Committee, speech on the floor of the House of Representatives, June 10, 1932 "In the united States we have, in effect, two governments....We have the duly constituted Government....Then we have an independent, uncontrolled and uncoordinated government in the Federal Reserve System, operating the money powers which are reserved to Congress by the Constitution." - Congressman Wright Patman, Chairman of the House Banking & Currency Committee, speech on the House floor, 1967 "Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders....The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and....manipulates the credit of the united States." - Senator Barry Goldwater "These international bankers and Rockefeller-Standard Oil interests control the majority of newspapers and the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of public office officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government." - Teddy Roosevelt "The Central Bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the principles and form of our Constitution. I am an enemy to all banks, discounting bills or notes for anything but coin. If the American people allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ In the United States you cannot get a job, bank account, insurance, driver's license, hunting or fishing license without a Social Security Number. In other words, you cannot make a living, travel, buy or sell without this number. It makes it very hard to NOT be a part of the system. Why do we HAVE to have a number??? Who made the Law that we have to be "numbered"? ANd further, NOW we are all going to be chipped like cattle. I for one do not trust this system. It is filled with lies, corruption, staged elections, false flagging and war. David talks about "voting" and speculates like he knows the "truth" because he is "sirius", yet he lied awhile back about winning the lottery and wants Obama ( a running dog) to rule. The whole system sucks.... literally this systems sucks the life out of anything real, good, divine, wholesome and natural. The Banking Cartel is a scam. How can we continue to blind ourselves by pretnending it's gonna change? The Feds are not "for the people". The IRS works for the Feds. Their code and mandate is NOT to save this planet but to save their banks. The IRS deposits people's income tax checks directly in the Federal Reserve banks--not in the united States Treasury. The IRS is merely the collection agency for the international banksters. Anyone can obtain the original incorporation papers (certified copies) for the IRS from Delaware's Secretary of State. The income tax has centralized all political power in Washington, D.C., eviscerated the independence of the states, and has made tax slaves out of millions of Americans. If you take out a paper dollar and look at it, you will notice at the top of the "bill" it says: "FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE". A "note" is, by definition, an "instrument of debt" and "evidence of debt". According to BLACK'S LAW DICTIONARY (Sixth Ed.) "MONEY" is defined: "In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins and paper currency used as circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate." So thise paper "Federal Reserve Notes" are not money and they are not dollars. Federal Reserve Notes are merely IOUs. There is nothing backing these "bills" except debt. Article I, Section 10 of the united States' Constitution states: "No State shall...make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts." The united States' Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land and this Law has never been amended. Article I, Section 8 states: "The Congress shall have Power...to coin Money". Notice that it states "coin" not "print". For the first 72 years from the founding of our nation the united States' Government only minted gold and silver COINS for money. It is unfortunate, that young people in the United States are not taught (in the government's schools) the HISTORY and operation of their country's most powerful financial institution, The Federal Reserve System. Created in 1910, codified by Congress in 1913 (along with the personal income tax), this "system" facilitated the US government's ability to inflame the nation's citizens for the purpose of supporting the European war of 1914-1918 (World War I). Today the U.S. government is in debt to the tune of some $70 trillion if one includes all the unfunded Social Security, Medicare, and government pension liabilities. What a system! Great! Bravo! We know how to spend money and create debt..... shit, what a blast. USURY Usury! Wasn't this a crime some time ago? The Federal Reserve System does not need to be audited, it needs to be abolished. It is a cartel operating against the public interest. It's the supreme instrument of usury. It generates our most unfair tax. It encourages war. It destabilizes the economy. Period. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ CREATION OF CENTRAL BANK - ROME The Bank of Rome was one of the first Central Banks which opened offices in Venice in 1587, the Wisselbank in Amsterdam in 1609, Hamburg 1619, Nuremberg 1621, Rotterdam 1635 and last but not least the Bank of England in 1694. The Bank of "England" was actually the first bank to be named after a country and after the "Bank" of Rome it was the world's first Central Bank. Then Usury was outlawed by Edward. During the reign of King Edward VI (1547-1553) the door was closed and locked against the "Bank" of Rome setting up a branch office in England. Parliament outlawed USURY and make it a criminal offense. The moneylenders persevered however and the anti-usury law was repealed in 1571. This opened the door to the establishing of the Bank of England in 1694. The Bank of England was incorporated on July 27, 1694, as a private joint-stock association, with a capital of £1.2 million. In return for the loan of its entire capital to the government it received the right to issue notes and a monopoly on corporate banking in England. Of course they only lent the principal so the interest would keep accumulating by compound interest. *** Since the loans could NEVER be repayed the moneylenders had complete control of the government and people.*** The greedy moneylenders of the Bank of England soon cast covetous eyes on the American Colonies. Their first attempt to destroy the Americans with usury was made in 1765. It was called the Stamp Act. Payment of various taxes were required in specie or coin. Since they had no English coins to pay the tax that meant that they would have to borrow at usury from the Bank. Benjamin Franklin said that the American war for Independence was fought over money and currency (like every war) and "the right of the Colonies to issue their own USURY FREE currency apart from the Bank of England. After the Revolution, the Bank of England still retained a stranglehold on the country by the chartering of the First Bank of the U.S. in 1791. The charter was to last for 20 years and expire in 1811. Congress refused to renew the charter and war was declared by the Bank of England in 1812 General Jackson said this about the 2nd Bank of the U.S. which was re-chartered in 1816: "You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to route you out, AND BY THE ETERNAL GOD I WILL ROUT YOU OUT." And he did exactly as he promised. He refused to renew the charter of the 2nd Bank and it died an unnatural death in 1836. The people were finally free of the Bank of England alias the "Bank" of Rome until the Civil War began in 1861. Jefferson believed that the keystone of the entire document was the Tenth Amendment. In order to finance the war, President Lincoln approached the banksters. They wanted usury of 28% which Lincoln refused to pay. In order to circumvent the banksters he issued $450,000,000 in GREENBACKS or U.S. Notes. These GREENBACKS were non usury paying notes and were backed by the credit of the nation. Of course the banksters were furious. Had President Lincoln lived and finished out his 2nd term he would have forever closed the door to the malicious influence of the "Bank" of Rome. On April 15, 1865, he fell a victim to the leaden bullet of the assassin John Wilkes Booth — another tool of the moneylenders!! Before 1873, most nations of the world except Great Britain had free coinage of silver and gold. That meant that anybody could bring bullion into the government mint and have it coined into money for free. Free coinage was like a reservoir connected by a pipe. Both metals always maintained a perfect parity or equilibrium. When silver was demonetized, it destroyed this perfect monetary system for the entire world and gold became the sole standard. This caused a great depression in 1873, 1893, and the panic of 1907 led to the creation of the Rockefeller "Federal" Reserve paper, debt and usury "money" system. Like Lincoln, President Kennedy opposed the banksters and it cost him his life. On June 4, 1963, a little known attempt was made to strip the Federal Reserve Bank of its power to loan money to the government at interest. On that day President John F. Kennedy signed Executive Order No. 11110 that returned to the U.S. government the power to issue currency, without going through the Federal Reserve. Mr. Kennedy's order gave the Treasury the power "to issue silver certificates against any silver bullion, silver, or standard silver dollars in the Treasury." This meant that for every ounce of silver in the U.S. Treasury's vault, the government could introduce new money into circulation. In all, Kennedy brought nearly $4.3 billion in U.S. notes into circulation. The ramifications of this bill are enormous. Soon after President Kennedy's assassination, Jesuit President Johnson debased the coinage by removing ALL the silver from the silver coins and shipping it off to Switzerland. "The dominance of the Hamiltonian, Big Government philosophy, and the marginalization of Jefferson and his ideas, is the fundamental source of America’s biggest problems, including a foreign policy that has run amok; a tax system that treats citizens like medieval serfs; an arrogant and unresponsive central government; the evisceration of the states as independent political sovereignties; the economic boom-and-bust cycle that is generated by "the Fed"; the eagerness of Washington politicians to strip away more and more of our civil liberties; and the infantilization of America that has been created by a gargantuan welfare state." - Thomas J. DiLorenzo WHEN AMERICA PRINTED THEIR OWN CURRENCY In 1750 America created their own money. Benjamin Franklin was a good man. Before the American War for Independence in 1776, the colonized part of what is today the United States of America was a possession of England. It was called New England, and was made up of 13 colonies, which became the first 13 states of the great Republic. Around 1750, this New England was very prosperous. Benjamin Franklin was able to write: "There was abundance in the Colonies, and peace was reigning on every border. It was difficult, and even impossible, to find a happier and more prosperous nation on all the surface of the globe. Comfort was prevailing in every home. The people, in general, kept the highest moral standards, and education was widely spread." When Benjamin Franklin went over to England to represent the interests of the Colonies, he saw a completely different situation: the working population of this country was gnawed by hunger and poverty. "The streets are covered with beggars and tramps," he wrote. He asked his English friends how England, with all its wealth, could have so much poverty among its working classes. Franklin's friends then asked him how the American Colonies managed to collect enough money to support their poor houses, and how they could overcome this plague of pauperism. Franklin replied: "We have no poor houses in the Colonies; and if we had some, there would be nobody to put in them, since there is, in the Colonies, not a single unemployed person, neither beggars nor tramps." His friends could not believe their ears, and even less understand this fact, since when the English poor houses and jails became too cluttered, England shipped these poor wretches and down-and- outs, like cattle, and discharged, on the quays of the Colonies, those who had survived the poverty, dirtiness and privations of the journey. At that time, England was throwing into jail those who could not pay their debts. They therefore asked Franklin how he could explain the remarkable prosperity of the New England Colonies. Franklin replied: "That is simple. In the Colonies, we issue our own paper money. It is called 'Colonial Scrip.' We issue it in proper proportion to make the goods and pass easily from the producers to the consumers. In this manner, creating ourselves our own paper money, we control its purchasing power and we have no interest to pay to no one." The information of Ben Franklin and the prosperity of America angered the English Bankers, and held their attention. They immediately took the necessary steps to have the British Parliament to pass a law that prohibited the Colonies from using their scrip money, and then ordered them to use only the gold and silver money that was provided in sufficient quantity by the English bankers. Then began in America the plague of debt-money, which has never since brought so many curses to the American people. The first law was passed in 1751, and then completed by a more restrictive law in 1763. Franklin reported that one year after the implementation of this prohibition on Colonial money, the streets of the Colonies were filled with unemployment and beggars, just like in England, because there was not enough money to pay for the goods and work. The circulating medium of exchange had been reduced by half. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ So GO FIGURE! For SURE there is Economic manipulation by the Central Bankers! How can anyone who "reads" with interest about the Federal Reserve NOT see this? Liv? What REALLY is your motive behind debunking Zeitgeist? Where do you get YOUR "sources" from???? Can you really trust where you get your information from? Who wrote this? You come off as alternative, someone who supports the "community", yet you can not see what is at the crux of all the war and poverty on this planet? Changing the world into a better place goes beyond lip-service, "community service" and donating to the "poor". It's funny how people who donate to the poor go home and eat until their way too fat. Colonialism. Big Bankers. War Lords. Is this what we want to support? By not seeing WHAT CAUSES THE MISERY AND POVERTY on this planet we in fact continue to support the war machine. By debunking the truth behind the Federal Reserve and it's creators, we actively support all the henious crimes committed by their "laws". So many people are disallusioned by money, glamour and prestige - so many people are wayyy too fat for their own good. Wow.... so we are free to travel on Jumbo Jets to go and visit places all over the world, take mug shots and act like movie stars..... yet people are starving by the thousands because of colonialism and greedy people. If you really want to help the poor, then rebuke the rich.

Mystica 2008-02-03T01:50:31Z davidsjelly http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#847d3815-6373-499c-b0d1-506da3054107 2008-01-31T14:45:27Z 2008-01-31T14:45:27Z

psybunk.........

davidsjelly 2008-01-31T14:45:27Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ac7d620d-8514-4224-8cba-aeed39327d67 2008-01-31T13:44:19Z 2008-01-31T13:44:19Z

......................bunk.

wil 2008-01-31T13:44:19Z Psi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#a67e485d-2c23-4e72-940f-d873aa904391 2008-01-31T13:36:27Z 2008-01-31T13:36:27Z

Here we go with more 'conspiracy theory' debunkers! When one watches the Money Masters and sees how the banking system used around the planet is the same model that is orchestrating wars, centralisation, NWO, economic manipulation (creation of 'depressions', famine, scarcity etc), manipulation of elections, etc; when one sees the evidence of Masonic and other secret societies working together (sitting around the same tables together as was shown in the P2 scandal, Bilderberg Group, CFR, etc) to steal billions and deliberately disempower whole populations; instigate secret programmes of weather control, mind control, mass poisoning using secret 'ministries' and departments of bureaucracies; when one knows about the Masonic wars for control of Africa, Europe, Asia, the Americas, the controlled and coordinated drug dealing programmes in various countries and the wars created to disguise the illegal government drug programmes, at least some people with 'half-a-brain' would be able to understand that it is NOT 'conspiracy theory' but a FACT! Conspiring to subvert the will of the people is exactly what has been going on for hundreds of years and always by the same or associated groups with the same agendas. And always the result has been the same - wars, rigged elections, financial losses and economic depressions, further centralised systems, a dumbing-down of the populace and an increase in the wealth of an elite and their supporters at the cost to the mass of population and the environment. It is by definition conspiring and therefore 'conspiracy'. Only an idiot or debunker will deny it when the evidence is presented! But it seems that the debunking groups who infiltrate any organisations that challenge the status quo do not want humans to be empowered and to wake up and stop paying taxes for wars and corruption or to realise their innate power and the truth of a greater reality which is mostly unseen (98%), and do actually want the maximum of fear, confusion, weakness, cynicism, fatalism. For some debunkers it is an ego thing to appear as 'clever', but for many it is their brainwashing or even their 'job'!

Psi 2008-01-31T13:36:27Z Psi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#0bfcf939-4c09-4912-8388-5fa26fc3d410 2008-01-31T13:07:32Z 2008-01-31T13:07:32Z

"I think there are a lot of little truths in Zeitgeist that are linked together into a false picture."?? Honestly I am getting tired of this fatalistic cynical nonsense. It gives an impression of being a debunker here to dismantle anything that challenges the very corrupt and rotten status quo. "I think trumping up fear against hierarchy is hierarchy. In other words, i think it is done to make money and to enhance the power of the "hero" spreading the fear." What on Earth has empowering people to understand the nature of their oppression, thereby liberating them to make informed decisions and investigate further got to do with "hierarchy"? This is utter rubbish! Who is the "hero" and who is making so much money? More nonsense! These suggestions that the prime motivation for the making of the film were money and power are pathetic and reveal the character of the one suggesting! These words are from someone who either has nothing better to do or is trying to turn people away from the greater truth. Hence the cherry-picking of the information, belittling it as being "little truths" and then mocking it and anyone who considers it as being important! Next we'll hear about 'conspiracy theory' and Anton Wilson as being the greatest writer ever! And all from a staunch advocate of 'global warming' theory, during a period of record cold temperatures around the planet! D'uh!

Psi 2008-01-31T13:07:32Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e39a7830-51ca-4248-aa99-2953c06c3265 2008-01-31T11:06:40Z 2008-01-31T11:06:40Z

Bush is clearly and way and away the worst president ever ever. His competition for this position, for the most part, achieved this distinction by inaction when action was called for. Bush has made some of the worst economic and foreign policy decisions in history. The bush presidency has been a high pressure political enema, a crude but effective method of removing the crap that have encrusted our system. I used to wonder how in the world we were going to make the changes that we obviously need to make. Bush is the answer. He is certainly not the problem. He is the cure.

wil 2008-01-31T11:06:40Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#452b4bf6-5dcf-4c73-bc69-c60a14f26125 2008-01-31T02:39:46Z 2008-01-31T02:39:46Z

alright, I'm gonna use this to further my point about not doing your research... and then I'm gonna use this to say that I totally agree with you. US Population as of Today, Jan 30th 2008 at 9:07PM EST, according the US Senses Bureau: 303,339,658 (www.google.com/url Military budget of the United States in 2007 : $439.3 Billion (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mili...ed_States) Lets do the math shall we? $439,300,000,000 / 303,339,658 people (drum roll please) $1448.21 per person. Hey, they're gonna give us $800? (actually it's $600 an individual and $1200 a household, plus $300 for every child) Well, i guess that covers some of it huh? Actually if every man woman and child could get a million bucks each, that's like 303.3 TRILLION dollars we would have had to spend on the war. The US debt is actually something like 7 trillion. But y'know what... fuck the numbers. A lot of the time, numbers are just spun to sound impressive. By themselves, sure they mean something, but as soon as someone reads them out loud or gives them a context, that person is applying their own meaning onto those numbers, and as always, its up to you whether you believe them or not. As for the idea of how much money we're spending on war when it could be going to so many other needed things, its fucked up. I hate the idea. I won't consider a candidate for the next election that doesn't have a plan for getting us out of Iraq. And yeah... the whole band aid idea about giving people checks to spark the economy back to life... chances are all that money is gonna be spent on credit card debt. Which wont spark the economy. It'll just go to paying off our individual debt. Hey, I don't mind that so much. But at this point, its really all about bush trying to up his image before he's gone for good so he doesn't go down in history as the worst american president ever. For me, he's number 2 worst ever. Right under Warren G. Harding. Fuck you Warren G. Harding!

Liv 2008-01-31T02:39:46Z davidsjelly http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#fc8f291d-9023-48c2-bb50-c8bd891525ca 2008-01-30T20:56:22Z 2008-01-30T20:56:22Z

interesting info~! with all these millions bandied about... i thought a little persepctive might be enjoyed by some here. if we take one second of time as a single unit equal to $1, then one million dollars would equal 11 days and some 13 hours. one billion dollars would be equal to some 30 plus years... and get this... one trillion would be over 30 thousand years! hugcheers,

davidsjelly 2008-01-30T20:56:22Z MARK http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#60ec60eb-f3a8-415b-8858-879ec901ab84 2008-01-30T20:35:29Z 2008-01-30T20:35:29Z

BRAVO Brutha John and I will define this with the fact that what the war cost the U.S tax payers last year alone, the U.S government could have given One million dollars to each and every man, woman and child in this country, but that would bring too much abundance and prosperity to the lower class now wouldn’t it?. And in light of the ridiculous band aid the government purposes to stimulate the economy with by giving tax payers $800 back ,I think it was? What a ridiculous insult on the people of this country and with the war itself, the world. Do the math, what a travesty this whole circus is.

MARK 2008-01-30T20:35:29Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#c57d0cce-44c0-4048-bc5c-9d9aeca7a110 2008-01-30T19:02:47Z 2008-01-30T19:02:47Z

<<<I'd like to know where 30% of my paycheck is going. >>> This question is a detail and a symptom of a much larger monster. Research Walter Burian and the CAFR. Tens of thousands of of 'social funds' in every state as well on the Federal level like retirement plans and medical pension funds which are used for private investment by the few whom have access, plus grants to corporations for research and development, plus war and most of all the development of technologies that will be used to better secure a two millennia old agenda for elite control. ThIs will fail but this is I am quite reasonably certain, the agenda. Burian determined that the CAFR reported funds total more than the annual GNP of the US, somewhere around 13 trillion dollars as I recall. It's OUR MONEY. If the already available free energy technologies were released, approximately 80% of our income would remain in our pockets and the nature of society itself would change as we would not awaken each morning with the obligation to extract resources and earn more and more and more money to survive as well facilitate the deployment of those resources for electricity, heat and fuel. We could rather spend time being human and living harmoniously and spiritually as I gather is the point of being here in the first place. Natural law is a wee bit more potent than manmade law which is abstract and nearly always fails. Wisdom and disciplined resistance is critical now more than ever as the co-Creative conscious era is already underway. BTW, Zeitgeist skims the surface of a more true history of the USA than we have been told. Check out Aaron Russo's history of the IRS full length movie. There's a ink on my profile. I am, for the record, very optimistic but there must be a transition period that could be miserable for awhile.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-01-30T19:02:47Z davidsjelly http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#9b1d0757-ff23-4446-ae36-13b9d307a604 2008-01-30T06:37:22Z 2008-01-30T06:37:22Z

yeah... good stuff Liv~! where do you think your 30% is going? i've said it before and i'll say it again. this zeitgeist montage and wordtage screams disinformation. it's such a deep game i can't tell if it's planted material or just plain old foolishness... probably a little of both.

davidsjelly 2008-01-30T06:37:22Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#6b5eb597-9c9e-48ff-ad01-f2ca4eee6efb 2008-01-29T20:21:13Z 2008-01-29T20:21:13Z

Ive got to take my hat off to you also Liv, excellent work, and your shining light where it really needs to be shone. Ive got to also say to will that your instincts were right, i guess im still learning here.

Elo 2008-01-29T20:21:13Z @leksonder http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ade85db0-a88b-4fb7-acc3-2d4ac22cfbc1 2008-01-29T19:23:09Z 2008-01-29T19:23:09Z

1. Truth is considered absolute and without any psychic blur. 2. Love is based primarily upon human emotional "feelings" not perceivable human "sensations" that define Truth. 3. Personal filters of ego self unnecessarily distort perfect clarity. 4. Unless we experience "our own" feelings of love, understand them and know what they mean Truth cannot be realized. 5. We do not fully know "absolute" Truth short of the moment of intuition. 6. Our intuitive glimpses of Truth can only be interpreted from our personal perspectives.

@leksonder 2008-01-29T19:23:09Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#60623ac0-3f91-4263-a7eb-f359bcada0be 2008-01-29T17:53:23Z 2008-01-29T17:53:23Z

I think response to each individual section of the film must vary depending on the community. In the areas that I researched in conjunction to the film, people noted that the religion section was all quite obvious, the 9-11 stuff was a bit too hard to swallow, and that they were most interested in the federal reserve section. (As I was) It might have appealed so much to those in the groups through which I researched for reasons such as having serious investments in the market or they perceived to have considerable prior knowledge of how the financial system works (and yet had never heard any of the info presented). My personal interest is that I've just become financially independent from my family, and this will be the first year I file my own income tax. I'd like to know where 30% of my paycheck is going. Of course if you showed the film to someone who was at a point in their life where they were challenging their religious beliefs, or questioning their spirituality, they'd find the first part most interesting. And people more concerned with our political system would find the 9-11 stuff most interesting... you know how it goes.

Liv 2008-01-29T17:53:23Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#fb28c825-ac4f-4237-9271-efd366160d00 2008-01-29T17:38:14Z 2008-01-29T17:38:14Z

Thank you very much, Liv, for the fact check! I have to admit that the financial part of the film really put my brain to sleep. I strongly suspected that this is a common reaction, and what the film makers were counting on. Great job, both doing the research and writing it up so well!

wil 2008-01-29T17:38:14Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#c38c00b7-068d-459d-8da8-01848fdb2031 2008-01-29T16:51:29Z 2008-01-29T16:51:29Z

I'd like to point out a few points of research about these 'seeds of truth and awareness'. It turns out that most of Zeitgeist is chopped up bits of truth thrown into a blender full of crap, and set on frappe. There's WAY to much to post concerning the entire film, so I'm going to focus on just one 8-minute segment of it. Part 1 of the Federal Reserve section: http://youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ Claim: A central bank produces the currency of an entire nation. It controls interest rates and inflation. Truth: Sort of, but no. The central bank is a large bank (under which smaller banks reside) that holds control of money, and it is their duty to gauge the appropriate interest rates and rates of inflation. They don't do this at their leisure. They themselves are regulated by a board of governors (who are not elected, so no pressure from political agendas). They are appointed by the president, and then confirmed by the senate, so they are always accountable. Both the bankers and the government are present in the process to keep each other in check. Claim: The federal reserve loans the money to the government on interest, plunging us into debt anytime they change up their rates. Truth: No. Its true that there is an initial interest rate for what the government borrows, to show mathematically what borrowing/interest rates should be throughout the country. But at the end of the year, all the interest is rebated, that's right, it's given back. So that the government doesn't fall into horrible debt. If the government were allowed to print its own money, there would be no check in case they just wanted to print money for political gain. The only interest the government really owes is to the PEOPLE and Organizations who buy bonds. You buy a bond for $20. Essentially that means you've given the government your $20 to do with what they will for say...10 years. Your interest annual rate is say 5%, so at the end of that 10 years, the government owes you your $20 + the $10 you made on interest. The government is in YOUR debt. And as for all the national debt the US has... its because the government spends more money than this country takes in, and they borrow money from all over the place. Claim: Bankers mess up the economy at their whim by pulling in and out of stock markets, scaring people into action and destroying the balance. Truth: Yes, this has happened. But that's why things like the Federal Reserve were put in place. And Yes, scares like these can be the cause of economic crashes, but there are economists and law makers putting checks in place to help prevent it. Like market freezing. On 9-11, the markets were frozen because people were panicked and likely to pull money out of the banks, requiring banks to pay off all their interest to the PEOPLE, crashing everything. Thanks to the freeze, things stayed put for a few days until everyone calmed down, and could consider the economy at when making decisions. Claim: Bankers met in secret on Jekyl Island and drafted the Federal Reserve Act to give themselves the power over money, which they pushed through congress by evading the vote-holder who would have voted no, and having financed W.Wilson's campaign, he agreed to sign it. Truth. That's just wrong. Bankers did meet in secret in 1910, and drafted the Aldrich Plan. They did it in secret because they knew any public attempts would instantly be scrutinized because our government was already REALLY weary about giving banks too much power. Once finished, the Aldrich Plan was presented to congress. It was read, revised, poked, prodded, and rewritten to BALANCE the power of money control, in essence taking away power from the bankers. In 1913, it became the Federal Reserve act. Meant to keep things in check. Claim: The House waited until most of the Senators were gone so that the bank supporting minority could vote it in and it was not passed legally. Fact: There is no factual basis for this claim. It was voted 43-25 at 2:30 in the afternoon. All it needed to be passed was for 48 senators to be present, and for half of them (plus tie breaker vice Pres) to vote for it. The Quotes: Some of the quotes given by our founding fathers are obviously meant to make us wary of bankers controlling the money regulation. But you'll notice that the dates given at the end of each quote are the lifespan of politician being quoted, or the date of the quote, all of which can be taken from a time BEFORE there were checks and balances like the Fed Reserve in place, when bankers really did have power like that. NOT after the fact. The few quotes that are meant to relate to it are taken well out of context. For example, the Woodrow Wilson Quote: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is now controlled by its system of credit. We are no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." Nope. The first two lines, "I am a most unhappy man..." don't exist as being said by W.Wilson anywhere. The other parts are excerpts taken from a couple different speeches made in 1911. A year before the act was passed. The date given 1919, may have been taken from the copyright date of the publication in which those speeches can be found. But the statements refer to a time BEFORE Wilson signed the Federal Reserve act. My Sources: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/3616/FedReserveFacts.html http://famguardian.org/Subjects/MoneyBanking/FederalReserve/FRconspire/FRconspire.htm - both by a Ph.D and Professor of Economics (And you'll notice that at the end of what the Professor writes are multiple sources for his own conclusions, which are all credible. ) http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2007/12/21/woodrow_wilson_federal_reserve/index.html- about the W. Wilson quote And all that is from just 8 minutes of footage. There's a whole 2 hours of this stuff!! Can you imagine how much of it is just wrong?? Well you shouldn't just imagine, you should find the parts that bother you and research for yourself if they're actually true. Not just pass this link on blindly.

Liv 2008-01-29T16:51:29Z scott http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#78eb6fe4-0064-4d16-a95b-81ccaffe7f12 2008-01-29T01:43:43Z 2008-01-29T01:43:43Z

No need for hope, no requirement to believe, KNOW. When it is known, it becomes.

scott 2008-01-29T01:43:43Z Hoopes http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#19c650d3-e570-4751-9267-0d5fbd701a01 2008-01-29T00:26:48Z 2008-01-29T00:26:48Z

I'm just confused about why the word "truth" comes up so often in association with the "Zeitgeist" film, especially given that the producer himself has said: "It is my hope that people will not take what is said in the film as the truth..." I guess his saying that is like putting out a bowl of M & M's and telling a kid, "Don't eat any of that candy" before walking out and leaving them alone with it.

Hoopes 2008-01-29T00:26:48Z MARK http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#4c09e738-b5d3-4786-9dde-8252986e8739 2008-01-28T20:45:25Z 2008-01-28T20:45:25Z

"I'd say it's the other way around. One cannot know love until one knows truth." LOL,LOL! I LOVE it. So true, but in the experience of it, they are one in the same. I'm still laughing because I’ve had that laugh many times, ones that pleasantly disrupted my meditations.

MARK 2008-01-28T20:45:25Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#73f7b0e6-2032-4303-8b7f-601df3c16d01 2008-01-28T20:34:13Z 2008-01-28T20:34:13Z

"One cannot fully know truth until first experiencing, understanding and knowing love. " I'd say it's the other way around. One cannot know love until one knows truth.

$item.owner.firstName 2008-01-28T20:34:13Z @leksonder http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f4014f44-25f9-4af3-9094-0e8f1de33a88 2008-01-28T19:44:02Z 2008-01-28T19:44:02Z

One cannot fully know truth until first experiencing, understanding and knowing love. ~Aleksonder

@leksonder 2008-01-28T19:44:02Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#8ec0d436-da6f-4c13-bc25-aea6ff106852 2008-01-28T17:39:15Z 2008-01-28T17:39:15Z

"i could never understand why the order of parts is this way in this video presentation." Peter Joseph, the director of Zeitgeist was asked the same question at the film premiere in Los Angeles. He said that the three parts all relate to the same topic : Social Control through manipulation: part 1: Religion, part 2:Government, part 3:Banking System "the first part about religions gets a pretty positive and familiar response the open mind. the second part tends to cause considerable skepticism and out right disbelief which unfortunately seems to close up their mind to the third part. anyone else encounter this when explaining or getting feedback from colleagues and relatives?" Yes, I encounter this problem at times too. It is too sad, because 9/11 is really the breaking point. Bringing out the truth about it would help the whole word to adjust to a better "course'. Just because someone doesn't "believe" it or is skeptical, doesn't mean it is not true. People are very skeptical and in disbelief, because confronting the deeper truths about world events, especially telling them that their own government is "playing both sides" so to speak and killed 3000 of their own citizen ( and about 1 million world wide since the "war on terror)), is not easy for an "average" person to confront BECAUSE they will have to look inside themselves as well and realize that they have been living a lie for all these years, believing in lies and building their lives on a foundation of lies, be it religious, governmental or money related........here we go again, all three parts are quite interrelated. They don't want to deal with it. It's not just about seeing the lies out there, but one needs to confront one's own lies inside as well. And that not many people want to do/confront, as a matter of fact, they'd do anything to defend their beliefs/illusion. They also have a lot invested into the "system" as it is in place and so it becomes an issue of Self-Interest as well. They don't want to get out of their "comfort zone". "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it." - Morpheus "To speak the truth is the most difficult thing in the world; one must study a great deal and for a long time in order to speak the truth. The wish alone is not enough. To speak the truth one must know what the truth is and what a lie is, and first of all in oneself. And this nobody wants to know." - Gurdjieff

$item.owner.firstName 2008-01-28T17:39:15Z Larry http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#0be16226-1da2-43af-b33f-dd2419688099 2008-01-28T17:36:16Z 2008-01-28T17:36:16Z

but im interesting in an analysis of the facts and detials are any of the facts wrong, are are they right ? >> I don't have the references in front of me, but I think a good place to start would be with the film's claim that all of these crucified pagan gods were exactly like Christ. Now, I think the basic idea is true -myths are almost always based on earlier ones. But the way the film puts it, that all of these saviors were born on Dec. 25 seems a bit simplistic, especially considering that many of these cultures were using different calendars. Of course, if all these myths specified that the savior was born exactly three days after the winter solstice, that would be the same thing, but do they? I'll have to do more research on this, but I somehow doubt it. This doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't created out of earlier tales, but it suggests that the film is trying a little to hard to make everything fit a very neat formula.

Larry 2008-01-28T17:36:16Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#fb4a11b9-4932-48d8-a3e4-24fe35d62dfe 2008-01-28T16:34:39Z 2008-01-28T16:34:39Z

i also think we are talking about this in very vauge sweeping terms, which is kind of OK, but im interesting in an analysis of the facts and detials are any of the facts wrong, are are they right ? If there right im a perfectly capable of making my own analysis of the overall theme, but its the facts that are important. It may be too dark overall, and the message because of how its edited and put together may be a bit wrong, but im very interested in what them quotes from form US presidents were all about, etc, etc. I think McKenna has it most right really more im thinking about it, there are probably 10% of the people at the top a bit like the film implies and maybe currently that 10% has a lot of influence, but that looks like its crashing about right now. I was reading the headline of the FT, seems like the IMF havnt a clue what they are doing. I think its heading McKennas way but that most certainly is not going to be all bad. SO in that sense i think the film kind of got it wrong, but then think of what they say at the end. To be the biggest mistke is the weighting of 95% conspiracy power brokers controling the world, 5 % if that at the end about the postive stuff going on. That gives a wrong impression, and i think that the feeling bheind your post live and will's and on that Im with you both.

Elo 2008-01-28T16:34:39Z Larry http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#1b8ee7a5-6763-41e2-a39d-542a23353c3b 2008-01-28T16:17:23Z 2008-01-28T16:17:23Z

As it says in the Kybalion, based on Hermetic teachings, opposites are fundamentally the same. Revolutions end up replacing one corrupt system with another. The mainstream media feeds people a simplistic world view, and then radicals and conspiracy theorists come up with a counter world view. The problem is, you can't sum up reality or society with a neat formula, whether your villain is Communism, Al Qaida, George Bush, Zionists or the Illuminati. I still think Zeitgeist has some a lot of truth -just don't take it literally.

Larry 2008-01-28T16:17:23Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#8dd04438-d53b-4e34-a29f-0dda3dbd01a4 2008-01-28T15:59:35Z 2008-01-28T15:59:35Z

mind its probably better to be half awake and frightened and angry, than asleep as a lot of people fed the mass media can be. but for sure to have hope in your heart, and see the good as well as the bad, and have a passion to create the good, and belive its possible, and see where its happening already is best. I agree with you and will that the film can push peoples minds into blackness, but you know, i liek to keep playiing the last 3 mintues. I love that music, that hendrix quote, and the Carl Sagan bit, wow, i mean that guy just beams sunshine out from your computer monitor dont u think ? I think we should just play that 20 second clip of him on loop in front of the whitehouse and the postive energy will no doubt crumble all the demons there ! lol

Elo 2008-01-28T15:59:35Z Liv http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e8ca55ed-ce9a-48b4-b062-439b3fba6519 2008-01-28T15:39:11Z 2008-01-28T15:39:11Z

You bring up a lot of very good points. The overall formula of conspiracy theory is to mix in some little known facts, some well understood truth, perhaps some obscure opinions, and then blow it up into a very extreme conclusion. Maybe its not right to give people the impression that we're being controlled left and right by one massive big brother figure, and its not right to put all these ideas together in a way that might scare us into action. The point is that the simple truth, the plain reality, without all the bells whistles and conspiracies attached, should be quite enough to make us angry enough to react. Films like zeitgeist, I feel, are the product of those who are frustrated by the mass's inability to unite against the small injustices. Films like these I think are meant to convince us that it's really one very big injustice, so we'd better act! Even if its not there. The most frustrating thing about these films is that we're shown all this horrible stuff, and then what? Ok, sure, opening your eyes to it is the first step, but what can you do to begin to hope combating this giant evil? Zeitgeist: "Hey! The world is being controlled by big brother!" Me: "Oh my goodness! I see what you mean! My income tax is due! What should I do??" Zeitgeist: "Well, the important part is that you know... We'll keep in touch. Don't call me, I'll call you."

Liv 2008-01-28T15:39:11Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f1c5524d-8221-4104-a86b-fde6d582a52d 2008-01-28T12:12:34Z 2008-01-28T12:12:34Z

sorry i didnt answer your question about the baby. truth - that some of the biggest money people in the world manipulate markets and economies in there own interest in a highly destructive way truth - that much of conventional religion is based on complete falsehoods truth - that there are many mystical themes underlining spirtuality that have been subdued, almost covered up, and made to look flase or silly in the last 200 years, replaced by the inacurate fairly tale of dogmatic conventional chirstianity in the influential and powerful west truth - that goverments spin many major lies on very importatn issues (like why the us went to war with iraq) i think many people out there arnt even aware of them basics. if we just push the postive only, peopole may still be blind. But your right to say pehaps we have to be very truthful and careful about how we take the blindfolds off. but your right, we need more than just exposure of whats going wrong now, we need to push the postive and solutions

Elo 2008-01-28T12:12:34Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#c1b6fedf-0025-4e80-bb7c-9b28772e38a5 2008-01-28T12:04:26Z 2008-01-28T12:04:26Z

<<I think zeitgeist is a myth about a myth! >> i think i get you now, yoru saying its imcomplete and woven together to give more an impression of all powerful big brother than there is. I think your probably right. however, a lot of the truths in the film I wasnt aware of till i saw it, it was one of the things that led me to this tribe. I found lots of it shocking. Lots of people are completly unaware of this stuf, the people i know in london my friends and family are. I agree it leaves you with too much fear and a negative energy. Still i think there onto something also, when you contrast it with what is spun in 95% of our mass media. Maybe thats even more of an argument for the film being balanced though, if its that important. But we still need to know these truths contained in it. <<I think are way better advised to concentrate on promoting the positive. >> well said Will and i am totaly with you there. I'm working on a project and we are trying to do just that. However, as people tell me, we need to be aware of the enviroment its placed in.

Elo 2008-01-28T12:04:26Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#65e248a0-9e97-4e40-b783-564d1a2ebdd4 2008-01-28T11:47:34Z 2008-01-28T11:47:34Z

What exactly is the baby in this bathwater? What is positive here? What are the truths that need our attention? I think conspiracy theories such as zeitgeist are mostly poignant attempts to console ourcellves with the extremely unlikely notion that someone, or even some cabal, is in charge of this mess. My criticism is with the overall picture zeitgeist makes of the bits of info instead of the bits. I think these patterns repeat like patterns in a dream, fed by our collective conscious. Like myths. That's it!! I think zeitgeist is a myth about a myth! I think are way better advised to concentrate on promoting the positive. Fighting the negative often just strengthens it. We tend to become what we fight, or something like that. So, having said this, i should point out there is no need to fight against zeitgeist as disinformation or dangerous propaganda. I'm sure it serves a good purpose too, especially for those who have blind faith in the institutions that zeitgeist skewers. But that sure ain't me.

wil 2008-01-28T11:47:34Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#4336589c-aabd-4277-9f54-2c5ee3960cc0 2008-01-28T11:42:23Z 2008-01-28T11:42:23Z

im with you on a lot of that Will but again im not too clear of the links in the film that you find dubious ? please check out my post on that above. i wasnt suggesting that you, or someone like you are rejecting it for fear, i admire your chilled out aproach to these things, but the again, this is heavy shit. I was talking about the more mass audience, u know when people are sending it to freinds and relatives, i think most of us on here are happy to have more of a mind of enquiry on these things. But its the more mass audience in a way thats important, or at least as important.

Elo 2008-01-28T11:42:23Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#a5118220-cb3f-4f27-90a9-e20a7b62d875 2008-01-28T11:23:24Z 2008-01-28T11:23:24Z

I don't disbelieve it because it is too scary, or because it challenges my preset positions. I think the cumulative effect of greed, economic opportunism, cronyism that blends over into racism, and lust for power explain things a lot better than the premises put forward in zeitgeist. There are lots and lots and lots of red flags, very questionable possibilities put out as facts, the obvious use of fear and tension throughout, polluting the film with emotional static. The official explanations surrounding sept 11 are full of inconsistencies, and there is a part of the govt that is trying to hide what it knows about what really happened. The disinformation surrounding this is really really thick. I strongly suspect that a lot of the wilder theories and "facts" are actually seeded by those who have an interest in confusing the picture. I think that karma will work this out. I don't think anybody gets away with anything. I think it all ultimately serves a larger purpose.

wil 2008-01-28T11:23:24Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#29f40345-b26d-462c-9b45-371619817b91 2008-01-28T11:20:26Z 2008-01-28T11:20:26Z

<<The movie goes on to try to over leverage obvious truths such as these into some things that are not obvious at all, and in fact i think very unlikely. >> Will thats not specific enough, you have to point out which bits and ideas you mean. I am kind of with you on this, but also see another perspective. Yes just becaue the church was controled and corportes try to control doesnt mean there is a direct link if thats what you mean. But you can look at it another way. If human beings do this at different points of time, even if there is no direct link (which there may be) it shows a THEME in behaviour. A pattern in behavoiur at the top of our socities in different histories. It also shows the extermit in what is sold as truth to the masses can be completly false at times, that our culture can be underpined by extreme flasehoods. that the matrix reality we live by can be fabricated, even if Will that matrix is complex, different at differenet times, and not always directly connected or organised. Maybe the theme and link is the DNA patterns that encourage those with power to do this. Man kinds behaviour about power, and they way the "masses" can both be controled and influenced. a pattern of invisable power that is set up to mainuplute at our foundations. Where i suspect they get it wrong, is that this pattern is all embracing at the top, and very linked and organised in totality. There is probably just as much confusion, diversity and thought about this at the "top" as there is at our level here on tribe. BUT the fact that it does go on, at this crucical time in mankinds history, when we are coming to a climax on enviroment, poverty (if the whole contient of africa is going to be wiped out completly it is sure to come up and slap the rest of us in the wes in the face with thins like diseases forgeting about the immorality of siting back and watching that happen. The world instablity of power with korea and iran going nucular on the one hand and trigger happy governments in the US. with all this going on at this time, even if some of these peopole are like this and its going on with only some of the powerbrokers, thats troubling. And needs to be exposed and debated about openly. But i agree the situation is probably much more complex. Look at the way most of us talked about god for the last 500 years for example, we have a tendcy to simplfy and break things down into cartoon stories and thats not always because of the way its spun at the top, its also a human tendancy. But Will that doesn mean there are real truths that need attention there either. Your in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water maybe ? But i agree on the other side people who "belive" in Zeitgeist, should be open to a more complex picture and that this is only parts of the picture. Truth is multi dimensional. I mean mean grip with Zeitgeist is it is too negative in tone. They spend over an hour frightening us, and then just about 3 minutes at the end on the upnote. That to me is out of balance, there are many many people trying to both do stuff about this, and also many counter postive movemnts to the energy of the themes in the film (like moves on the envrioment by the Googles, like SOME mutlinationals actualy making major shifts on that now, like big stuff pushing for third world poverty realse - UN's millineum goals, Gorden Brown, our new PM, stating his intention to try to convince the G8 to embrace the millenum goals. its that inbalance in the postive and negative why i think a lot of people instinctivly reject. it. That instinct is probably postive as most healty people yearn for the postive, espeicialy on a collective level. They makers should expand on the last 3 minutes. People need hope, they need a postive image of what can be, they need inspiration as well as the confrontations with the problems and some of the truth that the film makers done. Otherwise it encourages a seige war like mentality, which intself can be negative. We need the truth and exposure now sure, but we dont really need fear. We need inspiration , revelation, participation and action. We need love, love for ourselves and our fellow man, love for our planet. Fear can block that. "when the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace" Jimi Hendrix

Elo 2008-01-28T11:20:26Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#d424c02d-faab-498b-82a8-9e01c4a378de 2008-01-28T10:52:46Z 2008-01-28T10:52:46Z

its obvious david, its because the other parts challenge much more the current world situation as put forward by 99% of the meida and world. in otherwords them parst turn peoples worlds upside down if you are to belive them. the first part is more historical, u know we all know the church was very corrupt, many people get tought about the spanish inquistion at school (or they do in the UK anyway) but not many people are told that the stuff in the second part goes on, and that much more important to there lives. they dont WANT to belive it, because the implications are extremely heavy and frighting. people have problems with that, even if its ture. and that doesnt mean im saying its all true, but i think most is porbably true personaly, but only one side to the coin and there are probaby other sides too which contradic ie many high finace powerful people may be OK, but that doesnt mean som are most definatly not. The world is very complex.

Elo 2008-01-28T10:52:46Z davidsjelly http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#a54877dd-c097-4e86-8442-fb05cec285e1 2008-01-28T10:31:01Z 2008-01-28T10:31:01Z

>>>"I think trumping up fear against hierarchy is hierarchy. In other words, i think it is done to make money and to enhance the power of the "hero" spreading the fear." now that's a ringer allright~

davidsjelly 2008-01-28T10:31:01Z wil http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#eb8a226e-0fcc-44c0-a4d9-a38b3887c795 2008-01-28T09:43:10Z 2008-01-28T09:43:10Z

I think there are a lot of little truths in Zeitgeist that are linked together into a false picture. Patterns from the collective unconscious form again and again in the same way because they come from the same source, not because of a linear conscious plot. The rich and politically powerful work to conserve their own money and power, and cooperate with each other almost as often as they try to do each other in...................Did anybody here not know this already? Christianity was adopted and adapted by the late roman empire as a tool to consolidate power. Another news flash. The movie goes on to try to over leverage obvious truths such as these into some things that are not obvious at all, and in fact i think very unlikely. I think trumping up fear against hierarchy is hierarchy. In other words, i think it is done to make money and to enhance the power of the "hero" spreading the fear.

wil 2008-01-28T09:43:10Z davidsjelly http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#e82bb69a-e9e4-4ecd-acb7-04db8540f466 2008-01-28T08:38:02Z 2008-01-28T08:38:02Z

funny thing happens when one tries to explain all three parts of this movie to someone who follows the more mainstream sources of info. the first part about religions gets a pretty positive and familiar response the open mind. the second part tends to cause considerable skepticism and out right disbelief which unfortunately seems to close up their mind to the third part. anyone else encounter this when explaining or getting feedback from colleagues and relatives? i could never understand why the order of parts is this way in this video presentation.

davidsjelly 2008-01-28T08:38:02Z Elo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#128bf0cc-7327-4e61-92a0-572a6933056c 2008-01-28T05:25:19Z 2008-01-28T05:25:19Z

I've read a little about this on good astrology sites and there are different schools of thought but they all pont to the fact that the shift has started already.

Elo 2008-01-28T05:25:19Z Larry http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#88ab3b94-6555-4ce7-a4e7-27e4e5f782d7 2008-01-28T05:24:16Z 2008-01-28T05:24:16Z

I just saw the movie recently, and while it was good in some ways I think some of the points M.PA raises are worthwhile too. The movie is not really original, not that there is anything wrong with that. In a way, it's a compilation of a David Icke video I've seen (he also talks a lot about the parallels between Christ and pagan gods), Aaron Russo's, From Freedom to Fascism and Loose Change. I think a movie like Zeitgeist tries to wrap things up a little too neatly. We should definitely question the conventional "truths" presented by religions and the government, but we also have to be skeptical of alternatives and do our own research.

Larry 2008-01-28T05:24:16Z MARK http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#5c24f275-57e1-4e51-b8d5-6faa49c1af06 2008-01-28T03:03:10Z 2008-01-28T03:03:10Z

"It's not about telling any solutions. Before any solutions can be presented, it is more important to make people aware. This is just basic information which should be spreaded around to make people think, nothing new really" You're right Bernard, but it is information the masses aren't aware of or understand yet, so it is necessary. The problem, reaction, solution equation works as well for the truth as it does for lies and manipulation. Don't you think?

MARK 2008-01-28T03:03:10Z M.Parisi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#59b0d9a8-edf3-49af-9aa6-44b6e62050c8 2007-09-20T23:51:18Z 2007-09-20T23:51:18Z

Yep, in that way Zeitgeist works so well, and it's a great learning experience listening to the experts hash it out. I fell like the intention of the movie is coming from the right place, but I have an incredibly gullible nature and when something is presented as fact when it's not, it really turns me off. I'm not saying, at this point, that I think the movie is full of disinfo. I am saying however, that the most dangerous propaganda has just enough truth running through it to make embedded lies seem very real. I'm looking forward to the author's response to the primary criticisms of the movie.

M.Parisi 2007-09-20T23:51:18Z Nick http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f86962bc-d73f-4a8b-80ae-b9d8ebdeb47b 2007-09-20T22:03:36Z 2007-09-20T22:03:36Z

Anything that opens fresh perspective on tired subjects is a good thing IMO.

Nick 2007-09-20T22:03:36Z M.Parisi http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#62de03a1-d235-490c-9d47-86285ff9ea01 2007-09-20T21:47:42Z 2007-09-20T21:47:42Z

Hey guess what, I'm not a biblical scholar but I found this critical review of Zeitgeist pt 1 interesting as the author does bring up some good points (the fish symbol, Jesus's B-day, etc.). The most frustrating part of trying to contribute something positive these days is the fucking derth of disinfo out there. Just curious about this Tribe's thoughts. http://www.consider.org/News/2007/12.html

M.Parisi 2007-09-20T21:47:42Z scott http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#92f08610-d4cb-4a5a-b8b2-6cbf22e2e2f1 2007-06-30T03:21:48Z 2007-06-30T03:21:48Z

Bern, is there a purple pill by chance? :)

scott 2007-06-30T03:21:48Z @leksonder http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#3fe9c48f-ab92-4aa5-87aa-42f8e59d9cf6 2007-06-30T02:56:20Z 2007-06-30T02:56:20Z

The timing and form of many celebrations in Britain are rooted in activities that date from the pre-Christian era. The British Isles were polytheistic prior to the introduction of Christianity, and the days of the week reflect the forgotten gods of the Anglo-Saxon past. Sunday and Monday (Sunday and Moon Day) are self-explanatory. Tiu of Tuesday is a mythical Germanic sky god. Woden (Othin) of Wednesday is the principal god and progenitor of the Saxon people. Thor (Thunor) of Thursday is a Norse god of thunder. Frigga of Friday is wife to Woden and is the spirit of fertility, marriage, and the home. Saturn of Saturday is a Roman god of agriculture whose festival "Saturnalia," with its exchange of gifts, has been incorporated into our celebration of Christmas. In London, during the Roman period, temples were dedicated not only to Roman gods, but also to Isis, the Egyptian goddess, and Mithras, the Persian sun god. The former was worshiped in Hellenistic Greece and Rome; the latter, the soldiers' god of light, was a widespread cult throughout the Roman Empire. Christianity in Britain developed both as a reaction against, and in accommodation to, the paganism of the inhabitants, and its final form was conditioned by the old religion. That is why today, our holy day is the Sun Day and our most celebrated festival, Christmas, is timed to coincide with the winter solstice. The pagan gods that are presently best known were introduced during the terminal phases of British paganism and were documented because their appearance coincided with the beginning of literacy. Woden was a recent god, introduced by the incoming Anglo-Saxons as a special protector of kings and the military classes, while Thor was known as the protector of lesser folk. The cults of Woden and Thor were superimposed on far older and better-rooted beliefs related to the sun and the earth, the crops and the animals, and the rotation of the seasons between the light and warmth of summer and the cold and dark of winter. These ancient beliefs were so well established that whatever the name of the great god who for the moment was favored by the state rulers, whether Mithras or Woden—or Christ—the old practices, so essential for the fertility of the crops and for good luck in life, were maintained in farming communities until Christian decrees and the feudal system led to their final attrition. Little is known about the religious beliefs that sustained the rural population of pre-Christian Britain. But some idea can be deduced from the injunctions to shun heathen practices made by King Canute (c. 1016), who enumerates them specifically: "namely, the worship of idols, heathen gods, and the sun or the moon, fire or water, springs or stones or any kind of forest trees, or indulgence in witchcraft." The range of pagan deities—earth, water, fire, the sun, stone, and wood—supported as they were by agrarian production, suggests a religion that had a sound practical base. Two illusive figures appear as a backdrop to rural beliefs and demonstrate a male-female, winter-summer bipolarity: an ancient Earth Mother, who preceded the rise of later goddesses and grain deities, and a horned god of the hunt, who was the pivotal focus of a totem cult of stag masqueraders. Much more to read here: http://foster.20megsfree.com/418.htm . Article finishes with: In England the Earth Mother was an ancient figure and no longer the focus of a cult. Like Mother Nature, she fulfilled her role through ensuring the fertility of the crops and was supplicated (along with the fertility deities that followed her) with greenery and flower garlands. Dressing the Wells, an ancient ceremony still performed in few English villages, dates back to pagan times as a means of worshiping the water nymph. At Bisley in Gloucestershire, for example, the dressing is done by placing flowers and little leaves in a well. Corn Dollies were also derived from olden times, when they were made from the last sheaf taken from the field, along with lanterns and spirals, to depict Mother Earth. It has been suggested that Greek goddesses of the classical era enjoyed a Renaissance in rural England to the extent that the green ribbon that decorates corn dollies stands for Persephone, the young goddess of the fields and the green corn, while gold is for the mature goddess Demeter and the ripe corn. Robert W. Nicholls is a media specialist with the Howard University Research and Training Center in Washington, D.C. [The World And I (New York), December, 1988]

@leksonder 2007-06-30T02:56:20Z Nick http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#8cef42e3-6f2b-41c6-9a48-452f2b4f74c4 2007-06-29T05:22:32Z 2007-06-29T05:22:32Z

As for part one, very fascinating, although I found it a bit disingenuous how they never mention how syncretism and appropriation of pagan beliefs and dogma played a huge role in the developing church. cum hoc ergo propter hoc

Nick 2007-06-29T05:22:32Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#44979c03-5561-4cbf-9f62-c376043367d0 2007-06-26T15:57:00Z 2007-06-26T15:57:00Z

watching it reminded me of two quotes from the film "The Matrix" "The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it. " "The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us.You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth." - Morpheus "The Matrix" Some poeple will get it and look through the veil/behind the curtain and others , who are so conditioned beyond "repair", will try to "defend" the illusion that gives rise to this self-constructed "prision" they call freedom. Some are just not ready to be unplugged. But once you can see through it, it is so obvious like nothing else......and then there is no turning back to the "old" world.....why would you anyway? Red pill or blue pill? That'll be the decision everyone has to make for oneself.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-06-26T15:57:00Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#7a20387a-c53a-4579-820c-4d228dd179ba 2007-06-26T13:52:30Z 2007-06-26T13:52:30Z

'Very good, and good sources are finally understanding. And so, with this watched, now what?" Spread it. Send it to friends and family, encourage discussions about it, so people start talking and become aware. Awareness leads to change. The more poeple see the truth and can bypass their conditioned minds, the better for us all.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-06-26T13:52:30Z Tony http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#6b82f8dc-f58f-4b14-9ab8-9ada5db6dd67 2007-06-26T08:40:15Z 2007-06-26T08:40:15Z

Opps, I made a new thread about this movie, with some stuff added ;) 2150 is the length of each age. 2012 is the end of the Mayan calender, might also be what they consider the end of an age, I couldn't say. Actually though, I seem to remember it being from the Mayan's using some sort of goof ball numbering system. Seems like there's a wide range of stories about what time an age starts and what time an age ends. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Aquarius#The_Age_of_Pisces_.28Pisces-Virgo.29 In 1928, at the Conference of the International Astronomical Union (IAU) in Leiden, the Netherlands, the edges of the 88 official constellations became defined in astronomical terms. The edge established between Pisces and Aquarius locates the beginning of the Aquarian Age around the year 2600. That of course doesn't have to agree with what was considered the time lines way back when Jesus was born. I would also point out, in addition to what I said in the other thread, that for the Mayans to have the same story, the same constellations, etc., there would have to be very frequent trading with the other cultures on the other side of the world. Very frequent, not occasional, because of the huge language barrier. Also, direct trading, not trading with someone that trades with them. Even with direct trading, it is hard to imagine them simply adopting the same mythology, without God's help. Tony

Tony 2007-06-26T08:40:15Z scott http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#43679907-a222-4655-9886-63e3a13cce65 2007-06-26T06:48:17Z 2007-06-26T06:48:17Z

Very good, and good sources are finally understanding. And so, with this watched, now what?

scott 2007-06-26T06:48:17Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#b457ba33-000b-4b9c-bda7-663f97766d06 2007-06-23T03:33:41Z 2007-06-23T03:33:41Z

"Part 2 and 3 were EXTREMELY interesting, and i've found 99,9% of their content true and astonishing. I cant say the same for part one, very innaccurate from a traditional point of view, it lacks almost completely of the esoteric content, defining cycles with 'standard duration' and concerning only historical facts. Very well done overall, thoug." I think all of the parts are just a good condensed way of giving people some food for thought. You can make easily a 6 hour presentation of each of these topics. I like that they are to the point. Nowadays people's attention span is a bit short, so this is a good way to plant some seeds without overloading. It'll be a hard one for many to swallow that Jesus never existed....for many new agers as well, not only christians. Here the basic resources used in Zeitgeist: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/sources.htm Part 1: Massey, Gerald - The Historic Jesus and the Mythical Christ, The Book Tree Acharya S - The Christ Conspiracy, Adventures Unlimited Press Massey, Gerald - Ancient Egypt: Light of the World, Kessinger Publishing Churchward, Albert -The Origin and Evolution of Religion, The Book Tree Acharya S - Suns of God, Adventures Unlimited Press Murdock, D.M. - Who was Jesus?, Steller House Publishing Allegro, John - The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, Prometheus Books Maxwell, Tice, Snow - That Old Time Religion, The Book Tree King James Version, The Holy Bible, Holman Leedom, Tim C - The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read, TS Books Paine, Thomas - The Age of Reason Remsburg, John E. - The Christ: A Critical Review and Analysis of the Evidence of His Existence, Prometheus Books Massey, Gerald - Egyptian Book of the Dead and the Mysteries of Amenta, Kessinger Publishing Irvin, Jan & Rutajit, Andrew - Astrotheology and Shamanism, The Book Tree Doherty, Earl - The Jesus Puzzle: Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ?, Age of Reason Pub. Campbell, Joseph - Creative Mythology: The Masks of God, Penguin Doane, T.W. - Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, Health Research Maxwell, Jordan: The Light of World (Film Series) IRES The Naked Truth (Film) IRES Part 2: Griffin, David Ray - 911 The Myth and the Reality Ruppert, Michael -The Truth and Lies of 9-11 Avery, Dylan - Loose Change 2nd Edition Berger, Michael - Improbable Collapse Avatar, LLC - 911 Mysteries Hilder, Anthony J.- Illuminazi 911 Mugford, Duistin - September 11th Revisited Hufschmid, Eric - Painful Deceptions Zwickerm, Barrie - 911 The Great Conspiracy Duffy, John - 911 Press For Truth Jones, Alex - Martial Law 9/11 Jones, Alex - TerrorStorm Hilder, Anthony J.-The Greatest Lie Ever Sold vonKleist, Dave - 911 In Plane Site Humphrey, George - 911 The Great Illusion ** Important Reference Books ** Ruppert, Michael - Crossing the Rubicon, New Society Publishers Tarpley, Webster - 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA, Progressive Press Griffin, David Ray - The New Pearl Harbor, Interlink Griffin, David Ray - Debunking 9/11 Debunking, Olive Branch Press Griffin, David Ray -The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions And Distortions, Olive Branch Press Marrs, Jim - The Terror Conspiracy: Deception, 9/11 and the Loss of Liberty, Disinformation Company Part 3: Perloff, James - The Shadows of Power, Western Islands Marrs, Jim - Rule by Secrecy, Harper Paperbacks Dye, Thomas R. - The Irony of Democracy, Wadsworth Publishing Greider, William - Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country, Simon & Schuster F.D.R.: His Personal Letters, Duell/Sloan/Pearce Allen, Fredrick Lewis - "Morgan The Great"/ Life Magazine - 4/25/1949 Simpson, Colin - The Lusitania, Little Brown Pool, James - Who Financed Hitler: the Secret Funding... ,Pocket Books Epperson, Ralph A. -The Unseen Hand Sutton, Anthony C. - Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler, G S G & Associates Pub Sutton, Anthony C. - The Federal Reserve Conspiracy, G S G & Associates Pub Allen, Gary - The Rockefeller File, 76 Pr Lundberg, Ferdinand - America's Sixty Families, Citidell Press Mcfadden, Louis - On the Federal Reserve, Congressional Record 1934 Allen, Gary - The Bankers , Conspiratorial Origins of the Federal Reserve, American Opinion Larson, Martin - The Federal Reserve House, Edward Mandell -The Intimate Papers Of Colonel House, Kessinger Publishing Sutton, Anthony C. - Wall Street and FDR, Arlington House Russo, Aaron - America: Freedom To Fascism (film) Stinnett, Robert - Day Of Deceit, Free Press Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America, spp.gov Jaikaran, Jacques S. - Debt Virus, Glenbridge Publishing Grace Commision Report - 1984 - Reagan Admin

$item.owner.firstName 2007-06-23T03:33:41Z @leksonder http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#36cc3c3b-c02b-4fd8-842d-4e89fc327262 2007-06-22T23:57:51Z 2007-06-22T23:57:51Z

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=928518742089256264

@leksonder 2007-06-22T23:57:51Z Veru Mamo http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#9fa8f67e-d88e-472a-a2fb-beda3f4bb32a 2007-06-22T20:28:42Z 2007-06-22T20:28:42Z

Don't feed the troll. -Anti+ has an interesting and useless habit of coming into tribes that he has already decided he either doesn't agree with or just wants to antagonize, and stating opposing, or vulgar, or otherwise pointless commentary. I'm sure that if I spent at least two years learning to code, I could design a computer program that could troll at least as efficiently if not more intelligently. That being said, much love to him, and lets pray he gets over his infantile mentality which seems only capable of finding fun by disruption as opposed to communication and construction. I've been there. Much compassion his way.

Veru Mamo 2007-06-22T20:28:42Z Walker http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#efc891e4-6830-49c5-8a66-84eb0654b02e 2007-06-22T18:35:32Z 2007-06-22T18:35:32Z

why was that boring?

Walker 2007-06-22T18:35:32Z atman35 http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#1a6f2d60-fbd8-45b9-b811-282e920f5c85 2007-06-22T11:38:15Z 2007-06-22T11:38:15Z

Part 2 and 3 were EXTREMELY interesting, and i've found 99,9% of their content true and astonishing. I cant say the same for part one, very innaccurate from a traditional point of view, it lacks almost completely of the esoteric content, defining cycles with 'standard duration' and concerning only historical facts. Very well done overall, though.

atman35 2007-06-22T11:38:15Z Lysetskilde http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#ae620ba5-067d-4c32-b8e5-308dc90bac9a 2007-06-21T12:13:08Z 2007-06-21T12:13:08Z

You will also get a lot from this video with Michael Tsarion, it is all the same, or we are all in one. Se it here: http://www.lysetskilde.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=217&Itemid=88888930 Love and light Torben

Lysetskilde 2007-06-21T12:13:08Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#1b9dd2dd-6ba4-42a8-afbc-1c6e2598b339 2007-06-21T11:54:07Z 2007-06-21T11:54:07Z

ZEITGEIST Part I "The Greatest Story Ever Told" The True Foundations of Christianity. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8461754114455236037 ZEITGEIST Part II "All The World's a stage" September 11th 2001 was the production of the century. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2602704786128880796 ZEITGEIST Part III "Don't mind the men behind the curtain" The Revolution is Now. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8450558837192717138 Resource: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com From the creators of "Zeitgeist": "Thank you for your interest in Zeitgeist. Zeitgeist was created as a not for profit work to inspire people to start looking at the world from a more critical perspective. The large Internet response for this film was very unexpected, as the work itself is not finished. The Google release was simply to show immediate friends & consultants. Over the course of the next few weeks a new version of the work will be presented. In all humility I want to point out that 99% of the information in the current work is accurate. The 1% that is highly debatable is going to be clarified or removed. The graphics are also going to be improved. Furthermore, on this site there will be a source list for the entire film, detailed by segment. It is my hope that people will not take what is said in the film as the truth, but find out for themselves."

$item.owner.firstName 2007-06-21T11:54:07Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#d955ffd0-9429-41ce-baa6-a5d9b66acd45 2007-06-21T06:39:20Z 2007-06-21T06:39:20Z

"anyone have any idea about 2150 and how it relates to 2012 ... the segment starts from 12:30 and goes until 13:30 (1 minute total)" According to this film, 2150 is supposedly the beginning of the Age Of Aquarius, ending the Age of Pisces. I'm not sure, but I don't think 2012 is about the beginning of the age of Aquarius. I don't think those two are related. Then again, the Mayan calendar is also about the precession of the equinox and the 26000 year cycle (unless you go by Dr. Calleman's interpretation), starting a "new age" . So that could be the "realtion". Some say it is a 25765 year cycle. Being off 150 years in a 26000 year cycle is like a drop on a hot stone as we are already in "transition". There are many different versions and times being said as the beginning of the Age of Aquarius. I really don't know which is the correct one. It's all happening right now anyway in this period.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-06-21T06:39:20Z -Anti+ http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#20319133-77d8-4548-a833-34b4c21eab55 2007-06-21T06:07:40Z 2007-06-21T06:07:40Z

BORING! When do you people have fun?

-Anti+ 2007-06-21T06:07:40Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#f26cccc2-929e-4fb4-b8b5-b1b16a773882 2007-06-20T19:51:13Z 2007-06-20T19:51:13Z

"Spread the word. Knowledge is power." I agree. It is highly important to spread these seeds of truth and awareness.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-06-20T19:51:13Z burn http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#2c878abb-d91f-4f65-bdc9-ea58a65bf539 2007-06-20T19:48:27Z 2007-06-20T19:48:27Z

AMAZING VIDEO Everyone should watch all 3 parts Spread the word. Knowledge is power.

burn 2007-06-20T19:48:27Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#a5fa725e-6280-4982-b64a-76e3f4f3fd5b 2007-06-20T16:09:39Z 2007-06-20T16:09:39Z

"They talk a lot about the NWO in the third part, and yet pose no possible solutions to work towards.....it leaves a rather unsatisfying taste in my mouth...... " It's not about telling any solutions. Before any solutions can be presented, it is more important to make people aware. This is just basic information which should be spreaded around to make people think, nothing new really. The first step of change is to be aware and to make people aware of the truth. Keep in mind that 95% of the population of the world have no idea that they are being and have been lied to for centuries through their own governments, educational system, media and religion. So before demanding any solutions, I think it is more important to start talking about these things to friends and family and do the best one can do in order to spread seeds of awareness. It's also not about preaching or just believing what is being presented. If one doesn't agree with any the information, one should reearch for oneself. The information is out there. Nothing is hidden. The last thing we need is again other people telling us what to do. We need free people who can think for themselves and are aware of the mass conditioning that has occured for thousands of years, which primarliy means being aware of ones own conditioning. Self-knowledge is the key and the solution in the end of the day. It's part of the awakening to deal with the "less pleasant" facts of reality. Awareness leads to change. The more we talk about this in the public, the less it can be igmored and the more the "solutions" will present themselves.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-06-20T16:09:39Z $item.owner.firstName http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#57c5efd7-766d-44e3-912b-be24766def16 2007-06-20T15:53:29Z 2007-06-20T15:53:29Z

I've watched all the three parts. Great information. Part 3 I found highly interesting and significant! Part 2 is the obvious one. Gotta re-watch part 1 in regards to your question.

$item.owner.firstName 2007-06-20T15:53:29Z chycho http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#1d88e1b9-e072-4498-a913-0f5c2d7c0e3e 2007-06-20T12:45:55Z 2007-06-20T12:45:55Z

anyone have any idea about 2150 and how it relates to 2012 ... the segment starts from 12:30 and goes until 13:30 (1 minute total) thanks for any help :) ps. bump

chycho 2007-06-20T12:45:55Z Walker http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#3f69c087-ccc1-465d-beed-89b19219987f 2007-06-19T02:55:25Z 2007-06-19T02:55:25Z

I watched Parts 1-3.....and there is no explicit explanation of 2150 and its signifcance.... All the parts were very interesting, and I assume mostly true......but I wonder where they are going? They talk a lot about the NWO in the third part, and yet pose no possible solutions to work towards.....it leaves a rather unsatisfying taste in my mouth...... sorry for not really providing any help chycho....but I am in the same boat......if anyone can watch Part 1 (or all the parts) and draw some conclusions, it'd be appreciated

Walker 2007-06-19T02:55:25Z chycho http://2012.tribe.net/thread/650179ed-afbc-4490-8b7c-63d6061512f3#bf082ca8-2fad-4585-81aa-60d865e99a68 2007-06-19T00:26:31Z 2007-06-19T00:26:31Z

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8461754114455236037 This is a great documentary summarizing the links of astrology to Christianity. I do have one question, this presentation states that we are moving into the Age of Aquarius in 2150. How does this relate to 2012? thanks for the help

chycho 2007-06-19T00:26:31Z