Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

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March 15, 2006

Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

By MARK HARPER
Education Writer

The end of the world will come on Dec. 21, 2012. Or not.

While some New Age authors and teachers are touting that date as an apocalypse, a Stetson University professor is challenging the reasoning behind it.

At a public lecture at the Volusia County Library Center on City Island today, Robert Sitler plans to discuss "The 2012 Phenomenon: A New Age Appropriation of an Ancient Mayan Calendar," an article he wrote last month for Nova Religio, the Journal of Alternative and Emergent Religions.

Sitler, an associate professor of Spanish language and literature, has been studying and teaching Mayan culture since arriving at Stetson in 1994. He contends the Mayan calendar has long been the subject of "gross misinterpretation" on several hundred Web sites and in a continuous stream of books.

Those postings and printings are evidence of a growing public interest in the Mayan Long Count calendar, which had fallen out of use by the Mayans of Guatemala, Mexico and Belize, long before the Spanish conquerors had arrived.

The 2012 date is the last day of the current "b'aktun" cycle, or period of 144,000 days, and the final day of an even longer period consisting of 13 such cycles. No one knows why the calendar is arranged with an end date, Sitler said. But the Mayans were known for their accurate knowledge of astronomy.

"It's a weird concept to many because the calendar seems to have a preordained ending date," said Jeremy Puma, a Seattle resident and St. Augustine native who writes Fantastic Planet, a "gnostic" blog. He noted in an e-mail interview that the Mayans used the calendar for planting crops and other purposes, but the New Age movement "seems to have glommed onto the calendar's more mythological aspects."

First and foremost, Sitler and Puma agree, is New Age author Jose Arguelles, most famed for his declaration of a "Harmonic Convergence" in August 1987. The Harmonic Convergence, Arguelles said, was the "exponential acceleration of the wave harmonic of history as it phases into a moment of unprecedented synchronization," and "a shift point into the last 25 years of the galactic beam."

Sitler says Arguelles' approach is Mayan culture with "creative abandon," and when challenged, will note that his version of a 260-day Mayan ritual calendar, which differs significantly from the actual calendar used by some Maya even today, is a version of the "Galactic Maya," rather than the indigenous Maya.

"Arguelles is merely the best-known teacher in an ever-expanding international group that includes dozens of highly inventive and often eccentric individuals reaching out to the New Age public with their ideas concerning 2012," Sitler said. He notes the existence of a Web site that features a running clock until Dec. 21, 2012, with links to another selling T-shirts bearing the 2012 date and featuring several pop-up ads.

Despite the blatant commercialism, there remains a lot of interest in the subject, said Jeff Dorian, director of the MetaScience Research Forum, a local group that meets monthly at the Edgewater Public Library. Dorian said he has long wanted to land an expert in the Mayan calendar to speak to his group.

"There is a percentage of people who believe the end of the Mayan calendar will be the end of everything," Dorian said. "There's about as many interpretations of the Mayan calendar as there are experts."

Inside an Ormond Beach New Age shop, the Crystal Connection, a thumping of drums, soft whistle of a flute and screech of an unidentifiable rainforest avian greets visitors. Books line the shelves, carrying titles such as, "The Fourth Dimension," "The Book of Thoth," and "Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma." Also available: pyramids, amethysts from Uruguay, angels and fairies (spelled "faeries", presumably to seem more Gaelic).

Roger Hollander, owner of the shop, said he doesn't believe 2012 will bring the end of the world. But, he adds: "There are many people that believe this. Some believe this strongly."

Hollander, who also owns similar shops in Indian Rocks Beach and St. Augustine, believes a change could be coming in 2012.

"The world will have a better, a deeper sense of consciousness. By then, (people) should be worn out doing it how they're doing it now. We'll either be here or we won't; we'll just have to experience it."

Sitler predicts the Mayans' culture could lend 2012 "an attractive power that may eventually even outstrip" Y2K, the hype surrounding the year 2000.

mark.harper@news-jrnl.com

LECTURE

Stetson professor Robert Sitler will lecture on "2012, the Mayan Calendar and the Future," at 3:30 p.m. today in the Adult Auditorium, Volusia County Library Center, City Island, Daytona Beach.
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  • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

    Thu, March 16, 2006 - 8:27 AM
    BTW, here's the last bit from the above that you didn't post:

    Did You Know?

    If you caught the beginning of the recent Academy Awards telecast, you may have wondered why actor-director-producer Mel Gibson was speaking a strange language. It was just a little plug for his upcoming movie "Apocalypto," which is set 500 years ago in ancient Mayan times.

    · The dialogue in Gibson's new film will be spoken entirely in an obscure Mayan dialect and is described as being a "heart-stopping mythic action-adventure."

    · This isn't the first time Gibson has ventured into foreign-language territory. The dialogue in his 2004 film "The Passion of the Christ" was spoken only in Latin and ancient Aramaic.

    -- Compiled by News Researcher Peggy Ellis

    SOURCES: News-Journal archives; www.variety.com; www. apocalypto.movies.go.com
  • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

    Thu, March 16, 2006 - 8:32 AM
    halleluyah

    socially speaking, end time fantasies sprout up in societies that due to loss of connection with nature and each other have been filled with hopelessness

    it's more of a relief to think of a quick and easy resolution to our long deep seated social and spiritual problems as a people, albeit catastrophic ones, that it is to think that we've inherited the responsibility of putting our lives back to a healthy functioning order

    social nihilism.......I for one say embrace your own catastrophic need for change, realize that your dreams are PERSONAL in a time of social upheavel...resist the temptation to feed the new age version of the fundamentalists apocalypse

    it only keeps us more passive than we would be if we thought we needed to do the work of rehabilitating a transitioning culture

    just my penny in thought to the well
    • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

      Fri, March 17, 2006 - 7:54 AM
      What a way to treat your ancestors! There was a recent post by actual mayan elders recently, about the prophesy of the 'end of time,' perhaps you've missed it? They would echo your sentiments. It's about time they woke up and took the helm. I have spent a good amount of time trying to wake them.... and some of my priestess sisters as well.

      I think more interest and a little respect for ancient calendars and prophecies is in order in our rootless society. The whole idea of a thirteen-moon calendar is to get closer to nature. Don't blame 'new agers' for seeking some kind of connection in rampant alienation. Not to say that the Greeks didn't do a bang up job, and the mathematics that they based their calendars on is still quite current. Don't blame 'new agers' for prophesies that have existed for years about the 'end of time.' We are all striving to understand what this means, but of course we won't know until the event.

      My personal opinion is that the event already happened, 911. We are still on a slow burnout, and our system is changing through it's own self-denial process.

      Blessed Be, Elo Ma Devi
  • Oh.. so close...

    Thu, March 16, 2006 - 11:17 AM
    I just sent this to the author and the paper....

    Thanks to Mark Haroer and the Daytona Beach News Journal for the article "Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion."

    Mr. Harper's article almost got it right. Unfortunately in the haste to polarize the issue (2012 believers vs skeptics) it missed the massive gray area which is the significant between.

    There can be no argument that the Mayan Calendar, Mayan culture, as well as many other indigenous cultures have been appropriated in very harmful and consumptive ways. I thought the article was quite progressive in bringing this to the forefront of the discussion. Many people with New Age spirituality do not like to hear the way they 'consume' the beliefs and rituals of other cultures is damaging.

    I think the article was also worthwhile in taking a skeptic's eye towards apocalyptic world enders that postulate we are going into the New Age version of the Christian rapture.

    But then, instead of going deeper into why it is harmful to appropriate traditional wisdom, and the truth of what ancient wisdom says about this time in our history -the article diverges into pop culture. While not unexpected, the author's failure to explore a little further misses the important truth that lies just beyond the words.

    It is worthwhile to understand that no matter if the Mayan calendar is 'exactly' right, or whether their predictions are 'exactly perfect', the fact is that indigenous peoples from all over the world speak of this as the Time of Prophesies. The first European peoples spoke of this period in history as the "Time of Change."

    One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to understand our climate is changing in catastrophic ways. One does not have to be a political scientist to understand we face more war and death as a result of corporations and governments racing to extract the remaining natural resources from land whose people don't agree to this. You don't have to be an anthropologist to understand we live on an overpopulated world that is running out of physical space, water and food. One does not need to be a nuclear scientist to undertand nuclear proliferation increases the odds of nuclear catastrophe.

    Ancient wisdom from all over the world tells us change is coming. What this change ultimately looks like, how many people die and suffer because of it, and the number who can survive and thrive is in many ways UP TO US. There are no easy answers, no miracle that's going to take away our fundamental responsibility to love and respect each other, as well as all life upon this Earth which is our collective home. This is a truth that cannot be ignored. There is no other way. There just isn't.

    It's time we buckle our boot straps and get to work honoring this planet, our home.
    We are all connected,
    Naomi Archer
    • Re: Oh.. so close...

      Thu, March 16, 2006 - 12:32 PM
      Great points!

      That being said, I hope there is a follow-up article on the actual presentation; there's precious little in the acticle from professor Sitler and virtually nothing on what his "The 2012 Phenomenon: A New Age Appropriation of an Ancient Mayan Calendar" will present!
      • Re: Oh.. so close...

        Thu, March 16, 2006 - 12:34 PM
        Forget about everything you have ever read about 2012 and the acension and what happens to our conciousness after we are dead.

        6 years? 30 years? What's the difference!? One way or another our ship is sinking physically right now...it's just a fact. Wake up people....You are under a powerful spell, if you still buy in to the control systems you are under any longer...

        There is nothing we can do at this point but focus on your own creative process as a creator in this life, your own joy (get the hell out of that job you hate and follow your friggin bliss people!!! Sure pays more...emotionally especially) and service and love to those that show up in your life...

        America...heh...

        We should not allow ourselves to be crammed into this rat maze. That we should not submit to dehumanization.

        I don't know about you but I am concerned with what's happening in this world.

        I am concerned with the structure. Im concerned with the systems of control, those that control my life and seek to control it even more.

        I want FREEDOM, that's what I want, and that's what YOU should want.

        It's up to each and every one of us to turn loose and just summon the greed, the hatred and the envy, and yes the insecurities, because that is the central mode of control make us feel pathetic, small, so we'll willing give up our soverienty, our liberty, our destiny.

        We have got to realize that we are being conditioned on a mass scale. Start challenging this corperate slave state. the 21st century is gonna be a new century. Not the century of slavery, not the century of lies and issues of no signifigance, and classism and stateism and all the rest of the modes of control, it's gonna be the age of HUMAN KIND standing up for something PURE and something RIGHT

        What a bunch of garbage, liberal demicrat conservative republican, it's all there to control you, two sides of the same coin. Two management teams bidding for control of the CEO job of Slavery INC

        The truth is out there in front of you, but they lay out this buffet of lies...and I AM SICK OF IT...I'm not gonna take a bite out of it, yah got me?

        Resistance is NOT FUTILE, were gonna win this thing, human kind is too good...were not a bunch of underachievers, we're gonna STAND UP and were gonna be human beings! We're gonna get fired up about the real things, the things that MATTER...Creativity and the Dynamic human spirit that REFUSES TO SUBMIT...

        Well that's it, that's all I have to say...

        Be well all. Liberate yourself from the negative...which is really our own will to nothingness...and once having said yes to the instant, the affirmation is contagious, it bursts into a chain of affirmations that knows no limit....

        To say yes to one instant, is to say yes to all of existance...

        Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed, that's the only thing that EVER has. -- Margaret Mead

        Drop me a line if you want to stand up and do something about your life and your world...I am part of a group of people who's function is just that...to help groups gather together. :)

        Be well all.

        Chronos
  • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

    Thu, March 16, 2006 - 7:42 PM
    > Sitler, an associate professor of Spanish language and literature,
    > has been studying and teaching Mayan culture since arriving at Stetson in 1994.

    It's nice to see someone speaking up about this. However, for the *real* scoop on the ancient Maya, I'd recommend seeking the opinion of an epigrapher, archaeologist, or Precolumbian art historian.

    This weekend is the 30th anniversary of the most important scholarly conference on ancient Maya civilization to be convened on the planet:

    www.utmaya.org

    That's where the experts are hanging out right now.
    • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

      Mon, March 20, 2006 - 1:44 PM
      >>However, for the *real* scoop on the ancient Maya, I'd recommend seeking the opinion of an epigrapher, archaeologist, or Precolumbian art historian.<<

      Here's a radical idea.... let the Mayan people, their spiritual leaders and representatives, speak for themselves.

      What a revolutionary idea....
      • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

        Mon, March 20, 2006 - 4:43 PM
        Here's a radical idea.... let the Mayan people, their spiritual leaders and representatives, speak for themselves.

        What a revolutionary idea.... <<

        but what about the experts?!

        i have recently loaned a book out to a friend because he is on a course to prove to me something i am wrong about. the book is called handbook of the california indians (kroeber)
        and it shows as he was taught in his anthro class something about the region and language of my tribe. the thing is, his "experts" arn't quite privy to much of the knowledge passed down from generation to generation. he can prove me wrong for sure by way of the book, written by experts who have taken census and observedthe wild ones, and its almost like being cornered and called a liar (in a subtle way) than to hear what the people of that particular lineage has to say. also, there are non-translatable words or ideas that goes with the territory. there is no way to make that clear to the ethnocentric public at large, which is a good chunk of the americas and westen civilization, in my experience. these certainties are preludes to near genocides and successful genocides in many of the indigenous arenas, in recent years including now. not everything is put out there for the public to capitalize on and peer at with a fine tooth comb to find whats in it for "them" (which is what i hear often times)
      • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

        Tue, March 21, 2006 - 9:16 AM
        Aren't they all dead?
        I mean even before Columbus...dead?
        • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

          Tue, March 21, 2006 - 12:01 PM
          no X, there are many descendants of what you're thinking of as the Maya people...populating Latin America still, quite widely

          :+)
          • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

            Tue, March 21, 2006 - 2:25 PM
            the end of the world for "mad face killa" is gonna be when he gets swarmed by killa b's

            wu tang clan ain't nutin to fuck wit.
            • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

              Tue, March 21, 2006 - 3:56 PM
              thanks again go to Naomi for bringing us back down to Earth. although our perspectives differ, i very much appreciate what you have brought to this tribe Naomi.

              however, i don't imagine that the modern-day indigenous Maya represent the same culture as the ancient Maya. there are so many fundamental differences. not to say the traditions that they retain don't have their root there (actually probly much further back), but it would be silly to say that we shouldn't study the ancient artifacts. (i dig the approach of David Friedel who has worked to include the indigenous people in this process)
              furthermore, if the ancient Maya had intended that their message be only for an indigenous lineage, i can't fathom why they would have left world-class monuments proclaiming their advanced knowlege. it is my sense, as one who has had direct contact with these people and these places, that the monuments were left by the ancients not just for people of one background, but as a message for all Earth's people.
              So I wouldn't eschew the presentation of archaeologists. The folly is in taking such presentations as *real*
              it's an arrogance to regard one's own projections as the only *real* truth, especially when it comes to matters such as the message of the ancient Maya, when the only thing that appears indubitable is the many-layered meanings behind things. to take one layer as *real* misses the point that it's just your own illusion
              • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

                Tue, March 21, 2006 - 5:54 PM
                "however, i don't imagine that the modern-day indigenous Maya represent the same culture as the ancient Maya. there are so many fundamental differences."

                Probably true of most spiritual traditions, from Buddhism to Xianity! So?

                "i can't fathom why they would have left world-class monuments proclaiming their advanced knowlege."

                Possibly because they and their informants (like other former-age cultures in Egypt, China, the former Atlantis/Antarctica) knew that at some time in the future their "descendants" would suss it out.

                While I admire the work of David Friedel and the late Linnda Schele, IMO they are only beginning to fuse their indubitable study with the knowledge handed down through Mayan lineages.

                "the only thing that appears indubitable is the many-layered meanings behind things. to take one layer as *real* misses the point that it's just your own illusion"

                Yes, those layers--like string theory!
                • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

                  Sun, March 26, 2006 - 8:10 PM
                  > Possibly because they and their informants (like other former-age cultures in Egypt,
                  > China, the former Atlantis/Antarctica) knew that at some time in the future
                  > their "descendants" would suss it out.

                  There's no question but that the devastation of indigenous populations in Guatemala left them weak and hungry and with many more important priorities than deciphering the texts on ancient monuments, but that doesn't alter the fact that most of the progress in reading these hieroglyphs today is the result of hard work by generations of predominantly European and American scholars of non-indigenous ancestry. Most modern epigraphers are seeking to work closely with indigenous people, sharing what they know and teaching what they have learned.

                  New Age pop "shamans" and others who are trying to convince Maya leaders that their heritage comes from Atlantis/Antarctica, Lemuria, Egypt, or UFOs instead of a long and distinguished ancient history comparable to that of other ancient peoples are, in my opinion, the ones who are doing a huge disservice to indigenous knowledge. Those "alternative" beliefs have their own roots in racism, ethnocentrism, and denial.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

                    Mon, March 27, 2006 - 5:17 PM
                    are you familiar with the teachings of elders such as carlos barrios? gerardo barrios kaneek? hunbatz men?
                    they all teach that the original mayan teachers of humanity incarnated long ago at a time when the continents of the earth were completely different

                    are you insinuating that these elders have been duped by 'new age pop shamans'?

                    please show our living elders and the tradition they represent a little respect

                    the mayan spirit is strong, and it's not going to bow to would-be gringo authorities

                    although the modern-day indigenous maya may differ in many respects from the classic maya, their tradition is not 'messed up'

                    please, i invite you, go to guatemala and try telling the maya that they have no ancestral connection to the Pleiadies, that this is a 'new age' idea, and that they are strictly regular folk from earth and only earth, nothing cosmic... see how they take that idea
                    • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

                      Mon, March 27, 2006 - 8:25 PM
                      > are you insinuating that these elders have been duped by 'new age pop shamans'?

                      I wouldn't use the term "duped," but I do think they've been influenced by Christian missionaries and more recent non-Christian belief systems, including ones that were carried to Mexico and Guatemala in the late 19th century, the early 20th century, the 1950s, the 1960s, and the 1970s, and recent decades by a continous flow of Western seekers and philosophers who brought with them threads from Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism, Theosophy, Beat culture, Eastern religions, psychedelic philosophy, and pop pseudoscience. I don't think this is something that can be easily identified as "good" or "bad", but anyone ho thinks the Maya have been living in isolation from global trends for the past 500 years is fooling themselves. Check out any cache of beat-up paperbacks at a traveller's hangout in highland Guatemala or the Yucatan and you're bound to come across old copies of Castaneda, the I Ching, and books about UFOs. Do you have any idea how many hippies were traveling around Mexico and Guatemala in the 1960s? Many of the living Maya elders today were in their teens and 20s during the Sixties. Do you really think they were ignorant of what was going on in the way of global consciousness at that time?

                      How the living Maya (by which I presume you mean people like the Cakchiquel, Quiché, Chol, Chortí, Yucatec, Lacandones, etc.) interpret their relationship to the cosmos is much more complex than any reductionist interpretation of an ancestral connection to the Pleiades. What about the Milky Way, Venus, Mars, the Tortoise (Orion's Belt), the Moon, the Sun? What about the double-headed serpent and the Heart of Sky?

                      There is plenty there that is ancient indeed. However, there is also a lot that represents more recent spins and intepretations carried to the Maya by international adherents of multiple "alternative" perspectives, Christian or non-Christian. Any attempt to simplify is insulting to the complexity of Maya belief and experience. I didn't say anything about Maya belief systems being "messed up". All I'm implying is that it is probably just as difficult to define what is traditional for the ancient Maya as it is to say what was traditional about Christian culture before the invention of Christmas, Santa Claus, and the Easter bunny or American culture before the invention of the 4th of July, Halloween, or Thanksgiving. Just because something is "traditional" doesn't make it ancient and timeless. Traditions are being invented all the time!

                      As far as ancient Maya knowledge of "a time when the contients of the earth were completely different," when do you think it was that the Maya became cognizant of the configuration of the continents as they are today? How did they learn this?
        • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

          Sun, March 26, 2006 - 7:55 PM
          > Aren't they all dead?

          Are you talking about the Mayas? Where in the world do people *get* questions like this?

          It's a bit like asking aren't all of the Jews dead by now? How about those Cherokees? What about the Tamils? Or the Basques? Or those Hutus and Tutsis? There are all kinds of ethnic groups that some people may *wish* were dead who still number in the millions.

          The Mayas sure took some major hits, but there are tens of millions of Mayan speakers alive today in Mexico, Guatemala, and Honduras. They are also living in every major city on the planet, although a lot of them got stuck scrubbing toilets, picking vegetables, or roofing houses.
      • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

        Sun, March 26, 2006 - 7:49 PM
        I was talking about the *ancient* Maya, as in the ones who were not subject to centuries of Spanish genocide and missionization. The voices of the Mayan people themselves are incredibly important, but anyone who doesn't acknowledge that what they've been through over the past 500+ years has affected their consciousness in profound ways is missing a big chunk of the picture. For the scoop on the living Maya, by all means talk to them and learn from them. However, don't kid yourself into thinking that the Spanish Conquest didn't mess up 3000-year-old traditions in a major way.
        • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

          Mon, March 27, 2006 - 6:57 PM
          >New Age pop "shamans" and others who are trying to convince Maya leaders that their heritage comes from Atlantis/Antarctica, Lemuria, >Egypt, or UFOs instead of a long and distinguished ancient history comparable to that of other ancient peoples are, in my opinion, the ones >who are doing a huge disservice to indigenous knowledge. Those "alternative" beliefs have their own roots in racism, ethnocentrism, and >denial.

          Now THAT'S very assumptive! the ancient Maya texts themselves speak of earlier ages. My view has nothing to do with "New Age pop "shamans" and I did not mention anything about "Lemuria...or UFOs"! In fact, the sources I have mentioned over many posts, as Hoopes well knows, are based on other sources. I have studied with many modern Maya elders from both lowland and highland traditions, and they are not naive enough to think that these views both they and I hold about the ancients are mere modernist piffles.

          That being said, there is room for disaagreement and different views, his and mine and others. I only object to manipulative twisting of other's perspectives and words.
          • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

            Mon, March 27, 2006 - 7:56 PM
            Well, I was only partly alluding to your comments, so there's no need to take it so personally! If what I said doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't apply to you. I wasn't twisting your words at all, only spinning out some thoughts provoked by things you mentioned.

            I'm not sure which ancient Maya texts that "speak of earlier ages" you are citing. The only surviving version of the Popol Vuh is not something I consider to be an ancient Maya text, since it was written in the Roman alphabet by a Christian Quiché scribe sometime in the 16th century and later copied by Fray Francisco Ximénez sometime between 1701 and 1703. That's hardly "ancient". The Books of Chilam Balam are also post-Conquest documents that have been shown to have had a heavy missionary influence (and message). Perhaps I'm being picky, but for me the ancient Maya texts are the ones carved in hieroglyphs on monuments or painted on Precolumbian vases long before Columbus' expeditions.

            There are some ancient hieroglyphic texts that do refer to much earlier times. For example, the various texts from the Cross Group at Palenque that refer to the births of gods and goddesses. However, none provide any details about the nature of earlier ages and none of these can seriously be considered to refer to events in Atlantis or Antarctica.

            Any Maya elders living today grew up in a world in which external influence cannot be ignored. Charles Brasseur de Bourbourg, who published a French translation of the Ximénez transcription of the Popol Vuh in 1861, late in his career speculated that Atlantis explained the similarities he saw between the Mayas and the Egyptians. Augustus Le Plongeon, who took the first photographs of Maya ruins and excavated at Chichén Itzá in the 1870s, also spun fantastic tales about Maya connections with Atlantis that stemmed fro his own noodlings with Freemasonry and Theosophy. These guys and others were fueling stores that came back to your Maya elders' great-grandparents--not to mention whatever peculiar ideas from Spanish missionaries had been fed to their ancestors since the early 16th century.

            Yes there is plenty of room for disagreement and different views. However, anyone who is naive enough to think that the current Maya elders weren't discussing Erich Von Daniken and Carlos Castaneda with beatniks and hippies in the 1950s and 1960s needs to re-evaluate their knowledge of those even more recent external influences on contemporary Maya culture.

            Even the most "traditional"Maya practices today are deeply synchretistic. That doesn't mean they aren't rooted in ancient Maya traditions, only that one shouldn't assume that all elements are either ancient or Maya.

            I still think that most explanations that attribute the brilliance of ancient Maya culture to Atlantis or other non-Maya sources (including ETs and Egyptians) are ones that deny original creativity to the Maya themselves.
            • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

              Mon, March 27, 2006 - 9:19 PM
              "Maya practices today are deeply synchretistic" By that non-standard spelling I assume you mean syncretistic, that is, "a reconciliation or fusion of differing systems of belief, as in philosophy or religion, especially when success is partial or the result is heterogeneous." Yes, just as in many other traditonal world views, there has been this over-layer of modern influeneces, and yet also suggestions that their ancient sources are a "fifth" or "fourth" age of "man" before them: a distinct refernce to a time before, when previous influences or cultures existed as part of many and perhaps almost all traditional cultures' oral and written traditions. That cannot be denied. The "crash of the gods" guy and his critics aside, a seemingly universal archetype or at least recognition of a previous zeitgeist exists. I don't think we are THAT completely far apart or on different pages, Hoopes. And I don't take your invaluanle counterpoints as being negative. I believe, as I think you do, that ancient peoples were not as "naive" or "primitive" as we have framed them. And the ones "more ancient" than them are probably not either, don't you suspect?!
              • Re: Professor challenges Mayan calendar opinion

                Mon, March 27, 2006 - 9:58 PM
                > a seemingly universal archetype or at least recognition of a previous zeitgeist exists

                Given that the earliest evidence for human activity on the planet dates to about 2.5 million years ago, and add to that the recent news about the discovery of a fossil human from the "gap" between about 500,000 and 250,000 years ago

                news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4849320.stm

                I think it's reasonable to expect that every human group had stories and traditions of even earlier people!

                Ancient people found the bones of mammoths and dinosaurs, just as we do today. They stumbled across even more ancient ruins and found temples and pots and stone tools buried in ancient sediments, just as we do. The ancient Maya, like the living Maya, integrated paleontological discoveries into their consciousness. Just as the Tower of Babel was probably a story about a ruined ziggurat and Noah's Flood was a story that combined distant memories of real catastrophes with explanations of stratigraphic deposits and buried ruins, the Maya stories about the past were explanations of real experiences that were hardly naive or primitive. Traditions of how distant ancestors emerged from caves were ways of accounting for ancient stone tools and bones that the Maya themselves found in caves. They had their form of "archaeology" just as we have ours, and they told plausible stories about the past based on a combination of traditions, observations, and experiences very much the way that we do.

                One possible explanation for the previous "ages" of the Maya is the fact that there were several apparent "collapses" or declines of previous or contemporary civilizations during the Precolumbian period of Maya experience. This included, but was not limited to, the Paleoindian hunters, Archaic period nomads, early villagers, the Olmecs, the Late Preclassic cities (like El Mirador), Teotihuacan, Monte Albán, etc. They were familiar with the remains and ruins of earlier cultures, and found their own ways to explain them.

                According to current evidence, humans with an identical intellectual capability to ours have been on the planet now for perhaps 200,000 years. There is no such thing as a "primitive" people, only differing degrees of what we identify as "modern" or "civilized" according to our own biased and invariably ethnocentric standards.

                No, I don't think we're on different pages at all. I'm just far more skeptical of some explanations than you seem to be. I'm comfortable with that if you are.

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