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i am mortified, disturbed, and distraught over this. no words really say the ill feeling i have over the person who organized this event (i don't know who was running the sweat, that remains to be seen, but if any of my hunches are correct, i'll be even more saddened, crossing fingers i'm wrong.
not only did people die and get sick, its a bastardization of tradition, orgainzed by one of 'the secret" people, for more than $9000 to learn how to be a spiritual warrior and over come... blah! gross gross gross! i was just at angel valley a couple of months ago (researching for a friend who plans to do a hoopdance retreat), know the owners and management. its a hard hit for the spiritual community of sedona. i've never sweat outside of my tradition (turtlelodge) and have always been told to stick to the original instruction. i have always been fearful of the ways that are bent for the dollar. spiritual materialism is the root of evil, or a kin thereof...
www.foxnews.com/story/0,29...162,00.html
wo people are dead and several others remain hospitalized Friday after becoming mysteriously ill in a sauna-like sweat lodge at an Arizona resort.
Three people had heart attacks and about 21 in all were treated for injuries after being sickened Thursday night at the Angel Valley Sweat Lodge in Sedona. Two died.
The resort is next to GOP Sen. John McCain's ranch, according to MyFOXPhoenix.com.
Emergency crews responded about 5 p.m. Thursday to a hazardous materials situation at the sauna, the station said. Three patients were reportedly suffering cardiac arrest when ambulances and a helicopter arrived.
About 50 people were in a "sweatbox"-type structure when they were overcome at the resort, which provides Native American-style spiritual retreats, Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said Friday.
Many people began feeling ill after about two hours in the sweat lodge.
About 21 people were taken by ambulance or helicopter to area hospitals, where two were pronounced dead, D'Evelyn said. The dead were only identified as a man and woman, both middle-aged.
Two people taken to Flagstaff Medical Center were listed in critical condition on Friday. Three others who were admitted to a hospital in nearby Verde Valley recovered quickly; two were released overnight and one was reported in good condition on Friday.
Sheriff's homicide investigators were working to find the cause and determine if any criminal actions might have been a factor in the incident, D'Evelyn said. Investigators remained at the resort and were interviewing the retreat director, staff and resort guests on Friday.
Sedona is a resort town about 115 miles north of Phoenix famous for its red rocks. It is well-known as a center for a modern spiritual movement. Sweat lodges are indoor saunas usually located at spiritual resorts.
not only did people die and get sick, its a bastardization of tradition, orgainzed by one of 'the secret" people, for more than $9000 to learn how to be a spiritual warrior and over come... blah! gross gross gross! i was just at angel valley a couple of months ago (researching for a friend who plans to do a hoopdance retreat), know the owners and management. its a hard hit for the spiritual community of sedona. i've never sweat outside of my tradition (turtlelodge) and have always been told to stick to the original instruction. i have always been fearful of the ways that are bent for the dollar. spiritual materialism is the root of evil, or a kin thereof...
www.foxnews.com/story/0,29...162,00.html
wo people are dead and several others remain hospitalized Friday after becoming mysteriously ill in a sauna-like sweat lodge at an Arizona resort.
Three people had heart attacks and about 21 in all were treated for injuries after being sickened Thursday night at the Angel Valley Sweat Lodge in Sedona. Two died.
The resort is next to GOP Sen. John McCain's ranch, according to MyFOXPhoenix.com.
Emergency crews responded about 5 p.m. Thursday to a hazardous materials situation at the sauna, the station said. Three patients were reportedly suffering cardiac arrest when ambulances and a helicopter arrived.
About 50 people were in a "sweatbox"-type structure when they were overcome at the resort, which provides Native American-style spiritual retreats, Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said Friday.
Many people began feeling ill after about two hours in the sweat lodge.
About 21 people were taken by ambulance or helicopter to area hospitals, where two were pronounced dead, D'Evelyn said. The dead were only identified as a man and woman, both middle-aged.
Two people taken to Flagstaff Medical Center were listed in critical condition on Friday. Three others who were admitted to a hospital in nearby Verde Valley recovered quickly; two were released overnight and one was reported in good condition on Friday.
Sheriff's homicide investigators were working to find the cause and determine if any criminal actions might have been a factor in the incident, D'Evelyn said. Investigators remained at the resort and were interviewing the retreat director, staff and resort guests on Friday.
Sedona is a resort town about 115 miles north of Phoenix famous for its red rocks. It is well-known as a center for a modern spiritual movement. Sweat lodges are indoor saunas usually located at spiritual resorts.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 12:27 AMi know, i saw this online today as well, and was very disturbed over what obviously was somebody's major f'up.....
what were they doing in a "sweatbox" type thing doing a sweatlodge anyway? doesn't sound like any traditional lodge i've ever been in.....and never ever have i had to PAY to do a sweat....
i went to their site to try to get some info, pictures, etc...i can only think of who is running this place....it sounds familiar....is that those airy-fairy folks that have taken up root in Sedona? or are they traditionals? do you know anistara?
blessings to the families........9000 bucks...geez.....sacrilege -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 12:36 AMangel valley just rents the retreat space, they don't have anything to do with it directly except for food and lodging. and the $$$, but thats not the real problem.
>>i can only think of who is running this place....it sounds familiar....is that those airy-fairy folks that have taken up root in Sedona?<<
yeah, well, yeah...
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 12:55 AMcan't think of their names right offhand, but brings to mind some couple who both have long flowing bleach blond hair, blue eyes, with names like White Feather Joshua and RainMoon Ishtara............or something.....talking about the second coming of Christ and shamanic wisdom all rolled into one......
ughhh.....
their names will be added to the list of "sheister plastic shamans" to look out for i'm sure....if they're not really on there already (ala Brooke Medicine Eagle, etc.etc.)
thanks anistara -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 2:18 AMwww.newsday.com/news/natio...s-1.1513272
Thought this article was quite telling, and includes pics of the crudely built huge sweat.....tarps....yep....those people probably suffocated and might have had heart problems or some other ailments to start with
James Arthur Ray.....google him.....he seems like a real gem, that one.....hoooo boy!
made folks sign a release form apparently...."you may suffer physical, financial, emotional, etc. injuries by attending this workshop" (!!) WTF?!!
what a doofus......wonder if Oprah will mention it on her show? (since apparently he had her stamp of approval)
sad, so sad..... -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 9:37 AMsweat lodges need to be conducted by people who are operating in a fully aware Heart-Centered Mind, as the heart itself can be very challenged just keeping the body sufficiently cooled to avoid heat stroke. For those living a life-style of Excess (such as the likes of those able to afford $9,000 for such a course) , susceptibility to a heart attack will tend to be high, Especially after 2 HOUrs. A sensitive person running such a sweat lodge would have picked up on the "I'm REALLY Going to Die !" heartvibe that the victims would have put out prior to doing so .... but spiritual numbness is the rule these days, Especially with people who are All About the Money.
Infrared Saunas are Much Preferred over steam saunas, Far more Effective at detoxing without stressing the body so much. I built my own using ceramic infrared emitters. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 11:26 AMI was once trapped in a sweat lodge being run by a bunch of drunken partiers. They were periodically dragging in iron car parts such as axles from a fire pit and then splashing water on them for steam. About an hour in to the sweat I realized we were being cooked and asphyxiated, so I tore an escape hole in the plastic tarping and saved my ass.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 11:48 AMi can appreciate what you say there leslie, and i agree with you which is not all that often, lol!
but the infrared sauna is far different than a sweatlodge which is a cultural ceremony, not a detox tub! the ceremony is connected to song and direction, prayer. a sweatlodge doesn't stress the body. it feels so good... -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 11:53 AMI have been in good sweats before though. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 1:23 PMSolari, that sounds awful! my god.....such a pity
and yes, i agree with Anistara, sweatlodges are ceremonies and are meant to be conducted as such.....how they didn't have a proper native american running the sweat is beyond me......i got the impression from the article that the dude (Ray) himself was running the sweat?! from the looks of him, i wouldn't let him draw me a bath!
there are procedures to follow, that don't lead to this sort of excess (and you're right, the folks probably had no idea what they were in for....)....that connect you with Spirit while you're in there.....it is meant to be such a glorious thing, and i guess i consider myself lucky to have been in some amazing and all properly run and traditional sweats......
the weekend was called "Spiritual Warriors".......well that don't mean you're supposed to kill em.....'specially some older middle aged folks from what it sounds like.......geesh....so sad
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 1:28 PMI've been in loads of sweats in USA and UK, and Temescals in Mexico, and never heard of anyone dying before now.
I would recommend the ways that Temescals are conducted, very respectful, only by donation or free (except for the silly tourists who like to pay), always with clothing worn.
Seems like all kinds of idiots are pretending to be able to facilitate a sweat lodge and the daft people running this particular one really get the 'stupid' prize. They must have insisted that the participants stay inside even when under extreme stress and discomfort, and even to the point of heart palpitations and fainting. I would press for manslaughter charges.
They are irresponsible and careless and they should never have the right to conduct any such ceremonies again (let alone be paid for the privilege)! They cannot possibly be First Nations people, can they?
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 2:09 PMThe sweat lodges I've been in definitely put some stress on the body, and others would attest to the same, although one might do a sweat lodge with reasonable amounts of (often they'll go for the Max) steam and heat and duration, and thereby realize a minimum of stress and a maximum of non-suffocative-heart-palpitativeness.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 3:00 PMI think it was this man. Fully bent on making money:
jamesray.com/
James Ray International, based in Carlsbad, Calif. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 3:14 PMyeah, it was james ray's spiritual warrior course. sad but ironic that he was one of the main speakers on "the Secret" the law of attraction, and he charges $10,000 per head for a couple of days telling people how to attract serious money. duh, like how many of these get rich gurus earn their money telling people how to get rich? that's the secret alright... -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 3:25 PMa spiritual warrior (to me) is in some senses 'spirit fighting spirit' since there is nothing else to fight. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 5:37 PMHaven't read much on it have you Nick...you just make that stuff up....
To fight the battles, that entrap you in the emotional games of reality, is to be a spiritual warrior. Most adults are fractured souls after years of being in the grid program of our reality. Their spiritual theme is about healing issues, resulting from what they have done to others, what others have done to them, and from a never ending soap opera called 3D. They study martial arts, and other techniques to help them focus and empower themselves, thus hoping to become spiritual warriors.
They move beyond the physical realm,
where reality is merely a board game.
Life is all about regaining your personal power by not allowing the illusion to take it away. To be a spiritual warrior is to bring balance to yourself and hopefully to others you meet. It is about not believing everything others tell you that has worked in their reality, but finding your own truth. It is about listening to your inner voice, higher guidance, your soul. It is then you regain your personal power and identity. You become the spiritual warrior who has broken free.
We are all spiritual warriors fighting the duality of 'good vs. evil' in a game created by electromagnetic energies. The spiritual warrior within you needs to attack that which holds you back, especially mental and physical illness, that which self-sabotages your inner essence, overeating, substance abuse, addictions, anything that keeps your spiritual warrior imprisoned.
The spiritual warrior sees beyond the veil, into the truth.
love....................e -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 5:40 PMI understand the idea... what I am saying is that the recipient essence of the 'attack' is you...
love indeed! :) -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 6:06 PMah yes I see where you point...
The only place you have power to change is the self and so the battle is mastery of self and finding the courage to wage this war.
as in the Toltec teachings...
www.toltecspirit.com/four-ag...warrior/
>>>Characteristics of a Spiritual Warrior
Happiness is every person’s choice, but few really make an effort for it.
The Spiritual Warrior is a person who challenges the dreams of fear, lies, false beliefs, and judgments that create suffering and unhappiness in his or her life. It is a war that takes place in the heart and mind of a man or woman. The quest of the Spiritual Warrior is the same as spiritual seekers around the world. The Spiritual Warrior faces this challenge with the clarity and awareness that this war is fought within himself and that Truth and unconditional love are on the other side of these battles. This is what the Toltecs refer to as Personal Freedom. You can find this referenced in the book The Four Agreements by don Miguel Ruiz. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 6:18 PMI seriously doubt spiritual growth could possibly flourish in a tarped heat trap with 50 others who would pay $9,000.00 to experience spiritual growth. Sounds more like a shot at the Guinness record book....go figure.............. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 9:13 PMI always have to throw up a little when I hear these 'manifestation gurus' preach about how to attract Money!!! $$$.... oh and yeah... happiness... like an afterthought. It's like sending a damn invoice to the Source or the Universe (or whatever you want to call it) as if it deals in the same currency.
You may send in an invoice for $100.000, but will you recognize it when it gets back to you in the form of a gorgeous sunrise witnessed with loved ones? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 10:30 PMdoes that mean that for every day where there isn't a gorgeous sunrise with loved ones one should be compensated $100.000...?
that sounds about fair...
so how do I go about claiming the gazillions in backpay...? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 10:32 PMtimeless truth -> the more you love, the more loved ones there are.. hehe.. ;) -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 10:59 PMdefine love...
and then define loved ones... -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 11:17 PMinclusion, acceptance, appreciation , support, acknowledgement of equality
that which is given freely for it is truly free.
that which is unlimited.
that which we are in a natural state.
loved ones being beings whom you accept, appreciate, support and know yourself to be equal with.. those which you allow an inclusive non resistant relationship with...
Everyone knows this it is simply that often we judge against these ideas for our own reasons. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 11:30 PMperhaps we judge against these ideas because of an absence of reciprocity...?
or because of systems of deliberate programmed prejudice...?
or by a system of innate discrimination...?
or by experiential learning...?
from self evident...
absence...
of evidence...
www.youtube.com/watch
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 10, 2009 - 11:52 PMis this what you wanted.. to live in a house that's haunted..
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 9:25 AMYour suggestions of conditions and alternatives are all limiting the ability to love, Orpheus...
they are conditional love...
Nick speaks of opening self to larger Self which does not require needs being met...from outside rather than from inside.
having personal faith in your loving without need or reciprocity is universal love...
at this level of love All is and returns to source where infinite being is love without expectations.
Thanks for you Nick.......... :~} -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 10:05 AMso unconditional love is the love that doesn't need to deliver...?
isn't that just kind of a total cop out...? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 10:38 AMnot at all, you are delivering it all the time 24/7...your just not waiting to receive back in any way shape or form... that is selfish expectations placed on another being...sure to fall short there. If you are being lovable then there is love, you, being... if you are expecting it, that is desire. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 3:00 PMif you remove the conditions you remove existence...
nothing exists unconditionally...
so unconditional love is love that doesn't exist...
just as the removal of self is the non-existence of consciousness...
or as solomon so wisely put it...
all is vanity... ;) -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 5:57 PM> nothing exists unconditionally...
Three pounds of flax ...
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 6:54 PMO, you don't remove conditions you just don't expect them to be any particular way, you let them determine themselves or more accurately in the case of beings you allow the recipient to determine if and when to express them back in the way that they see fit, or not express them back if they so choose. The only thing in your power is to offer love, can you do that to another, knowing you have nothing to receive back except the satisfaction of the offering. And more importantly can you love yourself for just being your wormy self and be content with being. When everyone else is part of you and you love yourself...bingo you love everyone..........nothing more needs to happen. Practice smiling love to someone who you can tell will reject it what have you to loose but a smile and you may unexpectedly see a positive reaction...just don't expect it...........it's nort vanity it's humanity....at it's finest................peace bro.........................e
p.s. I love you....... :~}
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:05 AMyou mean unexpectational love...?
in an unexpectational world...?
in an unexpectational life...?
www.youtube.com/watch
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Orpheus
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 10:00 PM"nothing exists unconditionally... "
...that's true, everything exists creating conditions ~ from the condition it was created in. haha, Ultimatly without true expectation of itself.... as it just happens. We are really 'happening'. Right now. Unconditionally conditioned. To remove oneself is separation, yet may not even be possible, ultimately. How can you remove yourself, if you are non existant?
Vanity is self fullfilling itself, creating conditions... yearning for unconditional pardon.
Self esteem is self fullfilling itself, creating conditions.... unconditionally pardoned.
It's 'ok... ............... love your self. ;-)
Non-expectditional.... now maybe we could use that. lol :-)
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 9:59 PMunconditional love always delivers... -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 10:01 PMUnconditional love is suspended when a loved one gets ................
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 2:12 AM
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 10:15 AM> unconditional love always delivers...
the last person that claimed unconditional love for me, ripped me off and hurted me deeply
since then, i only care for daily love .,.... now i take love one day at a time ...... love me today is the only condition to be my lover .... anyone that promisses etrenal love gets dismissed as not knowing themselves .....
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 11:06 AMso, Oba, your just saying that the ripper offer didn't understand unconditional love and possibly you don't as well.........that caused you to impose more conditions for the future. Eternal love and daily love are also conditional. True love sets no limits and asks for nothing in return I think you are confusing needy greedy love with the open heart real thing. Unexpecting love as Lana referred too always delivers. You can't stop me, you may refuse it or twist it but it is real and offered freely to you to Orph and too his worms......especially to his worms ...in hopes that some day they will retreat and quit eating his brain.
with all due respect...............e -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 11:16 AMI don't think you understand the worms... hahaha
they are not eating my brains except in so far as they are eating themselves because they are everything that is manifest...
hence the "vermi malefica TOE"...
they aren't part of it but all of it... hahaha
and well I want the needy greedy stuff because I've got plenty of the other stuff and it ain't good for much... hahaha
so the love that provides would be nice...
and the love that doesn't give a hoot is good too...
but some of the cute stuff that people kill not to share might be nice too... hahaha
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 11:30 AM> ripper offer didn't understand unconditional love
all i cansay is that i clearly misunderstood the purpose or meaning of the "unconditional love" offered .... it was all an illusion
> caused you to impose more conditions for the future
yes i had expetations based on what was being said, i never expected the type of actions i later saw, so yes i did have expectations and so must have her .... in other words .... unconditional love in most cases is just a figure of speech that many use, but mean nothing but poetry
> True love sets no limits and asks for nothing in return
i have seen love, but i never seen love that never ask for love in return .... but maybe you have .... i have not seem everything yet
> Unexpecting love as Lana referred too always delivers
i tend to agree, but few have the level of overstanding and the life experince Lana has shown to us here
> offered freely to you to Orph and too his worms
i have no unconditional expectations ; )
if i plant a seed, i expect it to fruit, not all do, i know, is why i dont trow seeds just anyplace, i select where i put them, and also take care of them while weak .... i expect a better world not just for me, but for all, therefor i plant seeds with expectations, some of them are seeds of love, other are war seeds ..... what makes me grow better i fertilize, what takes away and drains me i destroy or push from my space .... in my small box i am King ..... but i am also responsible fro all that happens .....
i trusted words that were not honest, therefore i had that experience, to learn, and i am glad, bc i learned big lessons from that particular experience .... and i give thanks to the one that channeled that experience .... i know i never meant harm or to impose my will on anyomne else .... it was that i was not carefull, i did not investigate deeper, and worst of all, i did not hear my inner being words of warning .... yes that scar will be there forever .... bc i never want to forget
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 12:15 AMpp: "... timeless truth -> the more you love, the more loved ones there are.. hehe.. ;)..."
>>> That may be timeless, but my father used to say
"...if you can count your friends on more that two hands you have too many..."
...petty semantics at worst, timeless knowledge at best? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 11, 2009 - 6:54 AMA good sweat was as much about hygeine as anything else to many Native Americans. A properly conducted sweat feels really good afterwards and for some days afterwards, and it was a way for our forebearers to warm their bones during the long cold winters, and gets their circulation going again.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 9:39 PM
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 9:36 AM"Ray claims to help people achieve both spiritual and financial wealth. 'The real key to creating the life of your dreams is achieving true Harmonic Wealth®,' he says on his Web site, trademark included.
"The self-styled success guru says people are ready for his wisdom if 'You simply (and deeply) want to make more money and become more successful' and 'want to double, triple, even multiply by ten the size of your business.'
"It's not clear what type of financial wizardry was being taught inside the 415-square-foot homemade sweat lodge when a 38-year-old female surfer and a 40-year-old father of three dropped dead."
www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009...78668.shtml
Something tells me the most important spiritual teachings for people who deeply want to make more money are not about making more money. These tragic casualties and fatalities could have been easily prevented through a simply application of well-founded strategies of critical thinking.
Unfortunately, intuition (especially when fueled by greed) often trumps intelligence.
Survival requires both.
Critical thinking
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
"Critical thinking is assumed to be the purposeful and reflective judgement about what to believe or what to do in response to observations, experience, verbal or written expressions, or arguments. Critical thinking may involve determining the meaning and significance of what is observed or expressed, or, concerning a given inference or argument, determining whether there is adequate justification to accept the conclusion as true. Hence, Fisher & Scriven define critical thinking as 'Skilled, active, interpretation and evaluation of observations, communications, information, and argumentation.' Parker & Moore define it more narrowly as the careful, deliberate determination of whether one should accept, reject, or suspend judgment about a claim and the degree of confidence with which one accepts or rejects it.
"Critical thinking gives due consideration to the evidence, the context of judgment, the relevant criteria for making the judgment well, the applicable methods or techniques for forming the judgment, and the applicable theoretical constructs for understanding the nature of the problem and the question at hand. Critical thinking employs not only logic but broad intellectual criteria such as clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, significance and fairness." -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 11:21 AMAnd how do these programs differ much in kind from the Andrew Carnegie style upliftments? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 11:30 AMI'm fairly certain Carnegie didn't do sweats or claim his ideas came from Native American spiritual wisdom, but I'm prepared to be proven wrong about that. If he did, he may also have been an exploiter. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 11:33 AMamusingly I will be visiting his family in a few months for a wedding.. maybe I will ask.. lol -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 12:58 PMI have known three people who were Carnegie "casualties" which is to say they felt like failures because they couldn't live up to the Carnegie credo which does have some rather creepy codifications of behavior such as:
Arouse in the other person an eager want.... (Shades of Cecil Rhodes. LOL!)
Become genuinely interested in other people
Make the other person feel important and do it sincerely
Avoid arguments
Let the other person feel the idea is his/hers
Give them a fine reputation to live up to
The problem here is that there is always an ulterior motive in operation that can be insincere and conniving no matter how much one attempts to dress it up with niceties. "Become genuinely interested in other people" sounds like a Stepford Wives command, and the three friends I watched disintegrate attempting to wear this mask did so because they couldn't maintain the mask. They couldn't become genuinely interested in people who were not genuinely interesting for instance. Their other problem was that they came off sounding blatantly insincere to everyone else and so began to lose friends and gain enemies to paraphrase.
This is sort of what one sees in the New Age self help movement - there is an imposition of "sweeteness and light" on the paying customer that cannot be adhered to even half the time, so the attendee can feel like a failure when the template for behavior becomes too onerous to bear.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_...nce_People -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 1:14 PM"...there is an imposition of "sweeteness and light"..."
>>> I agree with this observation and my own experience with it is that is is indeed often very 'fake' sounding, with undercurrents of passive aggression never far away. I think this is due to an imbalance; you cannot love everything all the time. If you're at the beach, you love the sunshine and hate the cloud that just covered the sun. On another day where you're roofing a house, you thank god for the clouds that cover the sun... This whole light and love thing is overdone to the point of it being unrealistic and unsustainable, and in the case of these greed-gurus, hypocritical and destructive. Oprah is the main pusher of new age drivel in our society, and yet always has her own face on the cover of her magazine, and a couple million zombie followers: www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 1:45 PMSweetness and light is as unnatural as Morbid and dark. Which is why the middle path is the balanced path...chosen by many . I can get extremely annoyed at another driver for lack of attention and curse out loud while he/she drives texts and smokes, all while piloting a missile full of kids in front of me. But then I can wish them all well as they tempt fate, and pray that their lesson come gently to awaken them from slumber. Not all ways easy and I fail frequently to stay on this middle path, but it is all about the journey not the destination so I try......and try..........and try again
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 1:14 PMSo if someone falls off a cliff during this outing below do we give them the same hell as we have inadvertant guruesque parboiler?
www.encorewildernessretreat.com/wi...ce/ -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 4:20 PMSo if someone falls off a cliff during this outing below do we give them the same hell as we have inadvertant guruesque parboiler? <<<
its a fine line and why we have court and jury.
this is a familiar quest though:
www.freedomofmind.com/resourc...roversy/
but it kinda trips me out that its not common sense to eat well, drink lots of water and nourish your body before anything physically demanding. i wanna say, duh!!!!
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 9:16 PM"So if someone falls off a cliff during this outing..."
Hopefully, the guides on these outings have training and permits and are not stupid and negligent.
FD: No record of permit at Sedona sweat lodge where 2 died
www.abc15.com/content/new..._F-8vug.cspx
"Once paramedics got to the scene, Doerksen said there were 40 patients that had to be assessed and most of the victims shared the same symptoms of heat stroke or carbon monoxide poisoning.
"According to Doerksen, the sweat lodge started at 3 p.m. and his team got the 911 call at 5:19 p.m.
"Doerksen said the victims could have been inside upwards of two hours."
Who stays in a sweat for two hours? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 9:19 PMFamily of woman killed at Sedona sweat lodge speaks out
www.abc15.com/content/new...0TcCpxA.cspx
"Attendees told detectives they paid between $9,000 and $10,000 for their stay and participation in the program, which including a three-day fast and various spiritual exercises before the sweat lodge culmination.
"Investigators said the goal of the sweat lodge cleanse was to achieve 'an out of body experience.'"
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 9:23 PMFrom the same article:
"'Everybody has a right to believe and practice the way they wish to, but when it endangers the lives of others, or when you have to pay for it, that's not a spiritual belief,' said Mario Black Wolf, an Indian who has his own sweat lodge.
"A sweat lodge is a small shelter where water is poured over hot rocks, emitting steam and warming the inside. They are used in traditional Indian ceremonies to cleanse the mind, body and soul.
"'It also represents the womb of the mother earth for many tribes, and once you put a price on that, we call it prostitution,' said Black Wolf."
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"Wonderful things"
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 9:25 PMAnd this:
"One of Ray's fan's Greg Anderson, said it was perfectly fine that Ray raked in almost half a million dollars from the retreat, which he holds at the Sedona property every year.
"'That's one of the things that we're taught more and more in this society, that money is evil, and it really isn't,' said Anderson. 'It just provides wonderful things. If you have the ability, you can help many, many people.'"
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 10:48 PMpp: "...Investigators said the goal of the sweat lodge cleanse was to achieve 'an out of body experience.....'"
>>> I guess two people achieved this...
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 11:22 PM
Who stays in a sweat for two hours? <<
oh, i do for sure, even longer. or i have on several occasions, not recently, but i wouldn't mid it. the thing is, the first round is for the baby. its not very hot and can last a long time. there can be discussion for healing and storytelling, honoring the earth, etc... this can go on in any round, but the last two rounds are hard. after the second round, in my experience, the sweat leader usually opens the door. this is probably for good reason. there are other tricks of the trade i feel were not taken in to accountability like a traditional sweat. i don't know. i wasn't there, but i'm feeling pretty smarty after more things come up... another thing comes to mind is for women on their moon. i'm gonna leave it at that, but its like rule number one. i wouldn't rule it out as a culprit, sometimes wives tales having staying power for a reason.
and i hate to say it, but im gonna... as aweful as this experience is, bless it, and let the lessons be plenty to everyone who needs it. this prosperity thing in these times is crass. so much of it... thank those who's lives were taken for showing this trixters true colors. and i also have compassion that this trixter will also learn from his exploits too.
but yeah, 2 hour sweats are not unheard of at all... :) -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 12, 2009 - 11:47 PMand i do remember this! but after reading it again years later, it sounds eerily familiar!
www.powwows.com/gathering/...-lodge.html -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 7:33 AMDeath is an out of body experience. LOL! -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 9:16 AMSnake Oil Salesman of the 21st century.
Extremely Reckless & Irresponsible.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 10:24 AMWho is lower this Ray guy or this new exploiter who is auctiioning M.J's burnt hair in a baggy on the front page of the Sun. They say it will sell for more than 1000 pounds. Imagine how proud you could be to own such a treasure.....greed is f****** rampant ....lets just blow ourselves off the face of the planet and start from scratch......call it a power surge, and reboot.
.........just a thought from a space of disgust.............
........and still we try..........love to all .............e -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 13, 2009 - 1:48 PMnot all of us want MJ's burnt hair.....i ain't gonna blow myself off the face of anywhere anytime soon -
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Re: James Arthur Ray Says he's being Tested
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 3:32 AMwww.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1...67.html
Just had to post this, altho' i don't want to post on this thread anymore.....
it was too close to home
"James Arthur Ray says he's being 'tested' by the recent deaths at one of his retreats"....he finally makes comments, while at another seminar he's hosting in Marina Del Ray, CA (right down the street from me)....ugh....yeah, tested alright....Creator's gonna come beat his ass!! -
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Re: James Arthur Ray Says he's being Tested
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 6:23 AMThe comments that follow this story are worth reading. The ones posted by Native Americans are especially poignant, and the harsh responses to them are telling. I'm saddened by the amount of anti-Indian sentiment that still exists in this country. -
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Re: James Arthur Ray Says he's being Tested
Wed, October 14, 2009 - 4:03 PMYes, that's what i found interesting as well,...the comments after the article.....people are still so sadly clueless -
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Statement by Arvol Looking Horse
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 1:00 PMStatement by Arvol Looking Horse, keeper of the White Buffalo Calf Sacred Pipe:
As Keeper of our Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle, I am concerned for the 2 deaths and illnesses of the many people that participated in a sweat lodge in Sedona, Arizona that brought our sacred rite under fire in the news. I would like to clarify that this lodge and many others, are not our ceremonial way of life, because of the way they are being conducted. My prayers go out for their families and loved ones for their loss.
Our ceremonies are about life and healing, from the time this ancient ceremonial rite was given to our people, never has death been a part of our inikaga (life within) when conducted properly. Today the rite is interpreted as a sweat lodge, it is much more then that. So the term does not fit our real meaning of purification.
Inikag¹a is the oldest ceremony brought to us by Wakan Tanka (Great Spirit). 19 generations ago, the Lakota/Dakota/Nakota Oyate (people), were given seven sacred rites of healing by a Spirit Woman Pte San Win (White Buffalo Calf Woman). She brought these rites along with our sacred Canupa (pipe) to our People, when our ancestors were suffering from a difficult time. It was also brought for the future to help us for much more difficult times to come. They were brought to help us stay connected to who we are as a traditional cultural People. The values of conduct are very strict in any of these ceremonies, because we work with spirit. The way the Creator, Wakan Tanka told us; that if we stay humble and sincere, we will keep that connection with the inyan oyate (the stone people), who we call the Grandfathers, to be able to heal our selves and loved ones. We have a gift of prayer and healing and have to stay humble with our Unci Maka (Grandmother Earth) and with one another. The inikaga is used in all of the seven sacred rites to prepare and finish the ceremonies, along with the sacred eagle feather. The feather represents the sacred knowledge of our ancestors.
Our First Nations People have to earn the right to pour the mini wichoni (water of life) upon the inyan oyate (the stone people) in creating Inikaga - by going on the vision quest for four years and four years Sundance. Then you are put through a ceremony to be painted - to recognize that you have now earned that right to take care of someone¹s life through purification. They should also be able to understand our sacred language, to be able to understand the messages from the Grandfathers, because they are ancient, they are our spirit ancestors. They walk and teach the values of our culture; in being humble, wise, caring and compassionate.
What has happened in the news with the make shift sauna called the sweat lodge is not our ceremonial way of life!
When you do ceremony - you can not have money on your mind. We deal with the pure sincere energy to create healing that comes from everyone in that circle of ceremony. The heart and mind must be connected. When you involve money, it changes the energy of healing. The person wants to get what they paid for; the Spirit Grandfathers will not be there, our way of life is now being exploited! You do more damage then good. No mention of monetary energy should exist in healing, not even with a can of love donations. When that energy exists, they will not even come. Only after the ceremony, between the person that is being healed and the Intercessor who has helped connect with the Great Spirit, the energy of money can be given out of appreciation. That exchange of energy is from the heart; it is private and does not involve the Grandfathers! Whatever gift of appreciation the person who received the help, can now give the Intercessor what ever they feel their healing is worth.
In our Prophesy of the White Buffalo Calf Woman, she told us that she would return and stand upon the earth when we are having a hard time. In 1994 this began to happen with the birth of the white buffalo, not only their nation, but many animal nations began to show their sacred color, which is white. She predicted that at this time there would be many changes upon Grandmother Earth. There would be things that we never experienced or heard of before; climate changes, earth changes, diseases, disrespect for life and one another would be shocking and there would be also many false prophets!
My Grandmother that passed the bundle to me said I would be the last Keeper if the Oyate (people) do not straighten up. The assaults upon Grandmother Earth are horrendous, the assaults toward one another was not in our culture, the assaults against our People (Oyate) have been termed as genocide, and now we are experiencing spiritual genocide!
Because of the problems that began to arise with our rebirth of being able to do our ceremonies in the open since the Freedom of Religion Act of 1978, our Elders began talking to me about the abuses they seen in our ceremonial way of life, which was once very strict. After many years of witnessing their warnings, we held a meeting to address this veryissue of lack of protocol in our ceremonies. After reaching an agreement of addressing the misconduct of our ceremonies and reminding of the proper protocols, a statement was made in March 2003. Every effort was made to insure our way of life of who we are as traditional cultural People was made, because these ways are for our future and all life upon the Grandmother Earth (Mitakuye Oyasin All my relations), so that they may have good health. Because these atrocities are being mocked and practiced all over the world, there was even a film we made called "Spirits for Sale. "
The non-native people have a right to seek help from our First Nation Intercessors for good health and well-being, it is up to that Intercessor. That is a privilege for all People that we gift for being able to have good health and understand that their protocol is to have respect and appreciate what we have to share. The First Nations Intercessor has to earn that right to our ceremonial way of life in the ways I have explained.
At this time, I would like to ask all Nations upon Grandmother Earth to please respect our sacred ceremonial way of life and stop the exploitation of our Tunka Oyate (Spiritual Grandfathers).
In a Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no ending and no beginning!
Namah¹u yo (hear my words),
Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the
Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe Bundle. -
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Re: Statement by Arvol Looking Horse
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 2:41 PMThanks, Gayle. Do you have a URL for the source of this statement? -
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Re: Statement by Arvol Looking Horse
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 4:52 PMIt came to me in email. -
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Re: Statement by Arvol Looking Horse
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 8:31 PM
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Re: Statement by Arvol Looking Horse
Sat, October 17, 2009 - 12:23 PMpp: "...When you do ceremony - you can not have money on your mind..."
pp:"...When you involve money, it changes the energy of healing..."
pp:"...You do more damage then good. No mention of monetary energy should exist in healing, not even with a can of love donations..."
>>> I would say that transactions of a symbiotic nature are the best transactions, whether spiritual or material in nature, and it's not so much *money* by itself that pollutes the symbiotic nature of a transaction, but the profit motivation.
Money by itself is merely a neutral tool and as such not the 'root of all evil' like many people exclaim. It's *profiteering* that turns symbiotic exchanges of any kind into parastical ones.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 5:41 PM"An investigation into the deaths of two people who spent up to two hours inside a "sweat lodge" at an Arizona retreat last week has been elevated from an accidental death investigation to a homicide inquiry, Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh told reporters Thursday."
www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/1...ge/index.html
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 6:18 PMIt raises the question of whether Ray actively seeks bequests in his clients' wills... -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 7:41 PMHoopes, do you really think it goes that far?
i think the guy was just being an idiot and highly irresponsible, as was pointed out in the much needed counsel of elder posted by gayle above.....thank you gayle! that was some much needed input
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 15, 2009 - 8:33 PMya never know LF. i tend to agree with you, but then, i ponder snake oil and the love of munny and then i'm not so sure....
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 3:15 AMI know a number of John Ray groupies.......
Milwaukee is one of his target areas.........where his chats about Harmonic Wealth ......goes so far that he uses tactics / sales pitch basically daring or guilting participants to take out their credit cards and pay up front for one of these ' $10,000 Life Changing seminars'. Risk taking ... I think he calls it.
He needs to be held accountable.
This is exactly why it has happened.
The Universe says STOP.
For so many who are still in the ' business / greed as usual' mode.........the BUCK stops here.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 8:18 AM"I know a number of John Ray groupies......."
I don't know much about John Arthur Ray, but if he's like other similar personalities his greed for money is accompanied by greed for sex. I picture him with a bevy of polyamorous babes and lovers in cities scattered in cities around the U.S. There may even be several who are underage. It's the projection of both financial and sexual power that makes him attractive to people who perceive themselves as deficient in these areas, so they open up their wallets in the hopes of getting some of what he's getting. It winds up looking like a pyramid scheme of hope and fantasy, with a few at the top getting what they want and a lot of pathetic souls at the bottom who wind up with very little.
I suspect a homicide investigation and trial will reveal a lot of tawdry details and TMI about the New Age industry in Sedona and elsewhere. Just as Y2K sucked money into a dotcom bubble that eventually burst, Y2012 is sucking bucks into a "spirituality" bubble that will also eventually burst. Some people only learn important lessons the hard way. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 9:12 AM"Live in a world of your own choosing... No matter what's going on around you."
"By enrolling in Taking Personal Responsibility, I'll show you what it takes to be truly healthy..."
James Arthur Ray
President/CEO
James Ray International, Inc.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 9:15 AMIsn't this a bit of an over generalization, Hoopes? While there are certainly loads of scammers out there, there are also many people involved in current spiritualist practices who are not charlatans and not reckless. Just because Bernie Madoff made of with billions doesn't mean all money managers are corrupt either. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 12:51 PM"While there are certainly loads of scammers out there, there are also many people involved in current spiritualist practices who are not charlatans..."
Who, for example?
As you probably know, Spiritualism has long been identified as a cover for charlatans of all kinds.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism
I'm curious about your own definition of "charlatan."
Does someone have to know that the metaphysical claims they make are flawed in order to be considered a charlatan, or is a charlatan anyone (including genuine believers) who uses faith-based assertions to take peoples' money?
Is the Pope, for example, a charlatan? What about the Rev. Billy Graham, Jr.? Was Joseph Smith, Jr. (the founder of Mormonism) a charlatan? How about Helena Blavatsky (a founder of Theosophy)? Edgar Cayce (the "sleeping prophet"?) L. Ron Hubbard (founder of Scientology)? Elizabeth Clare Prophet (leader of the Ascended Master Teachings and the Church Universal and Triumphant)? Claude Vorilhon (a.k.a. Raël, founder of Raëlism)? J.Z. Knight (channeler of "Ramtha")? Darryl Anka (channeler of "Bashar")? John Edward (who supposedly contacts the dead)? There is a long, long, long list that goes back a long ways. It includes people like the Count of St. Germain, Phillip von Hohenheim (a.k.a. Paracelsus), Eliphas Levi, Alessandro Cagliostro, and many others.
You're right, not all financial managers are corrupt. The question is, how do you tell the "good" ones from the "bad" ones?
How can you tell that someone who is making a living off spirituality, metaphysics, and psychic or paranormal phenomena, whether of the Roman Catholic variety, the fundamentalist Christian variety, or the New Age variety (which are just the best known in the U.S.--there are lots of others) is not faking it? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 2:27 PMseriously, ..................... the answer to the rhetorical "how?s" is simple, and effective. You take a close look at some interesting aspect(s) of spirituality, and the works of someone who has something to say on this, that isn't blatantly beyond what you could conceive of as holding some truth. (hint, if No Such aspect of spirituality could Possibly be even pretended to have a valid reality in your mind.... then your mind is Closed from the beginning, and therefor Unable to Understand... but only Criticize without full understanding) Then, as with a movie, a good book, or a good storyteller, you Suspend your disbelief..... and Engage your intuitive mind. You immerse yourself in it all, experience what others are experiencing, confident that when you return to your state of being prior to entering into this Alternative Reality, that you won't somehow be "lost" or "duped"..... but Confident in your Ability to Learn Something Other than what you might hold as a Pre-Conception. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 2:49 PMindeed...
why do people join the military or go to law school...?
because it's the pyramid scheme that has their number marked on the card etc...
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 2:51 PM
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 1:50 AMoh so that's why i'm swapping my architecture degree for law next year? well i never..
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 2:44 AM -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 2:59 AMoh yeah i am so totally taking the blue pill~
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:11 AM -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:26 AMmaybe i will..
else i gotta find a guru asap to activate my kundalini www.youtube.com/watch
oh to find a genuine guru..
bviousy Les and Hoopes you two never came to find any common ground on yet another issue..
but well i think everybody finds the teacher they were meant to (sympathies to the victims' loved ones) -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:33 AMand to sum all of this up i think life and the search for meaning love or truth is well delineated in Alice in Wonderland
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:58 AM -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 4:10 AMquelle horreur..
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Tue, October 20, 2009 - 4:21 AM -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 4:42 AMet Dieu crea la Femme en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_...1956_film)
www.youtube.com/watch (i played Abigail on stage when i was 17 so ok i admit it i'm the pits it's true D8)
talking of heaven.. i found a page today from psychedelia.com or something like that www.paradise-engineering.com/heaven.htm
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:46 AM -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 4:00 AMcool what a legend he's like some kinda Walt Whitman or somethin.. is he Amish? sometimes i wish i were Amish or something like that -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 4:09 AMgoogle him... hahaha
but all you really need is a bicycle and a jolly good laugh... hahaha
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 4:23 AMwow i was thinkin that entry was awesome til all that drama about masturbation.. it is however an area i'm not too wise about- i've been meaning to research it for ages now actually :S what don't i know about it?
apart from that, cool life story i reckon! i love sanatoriums! i wrote a whole essay on the Paimio Sanatorium.. and my mum's decided to forget about breeding lamas a while, and instead establish a rehab that she wants me to help her with cos after all one day it's gonna be MINE ALL MIND HAHAHAHHAHAH but wtf are you insinuatin about me bein the wicked witch of the west huh! -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 4:31 AM -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 4:50 AMare you into that whole Madonna/whore dichotomy? or more like tantric 16 yo babes/crone witches for you i guess..
"Iconographic representations tend to show the dakini as a young, naked figure in a dancing posture, often holding a skullcup (kapala) filled with menstrual blood or the elixir of life in one hand, and a curved knife (kartika) in the other. She may wear a garland of human skulls, with a trident staff leaning against her shoulder. Her hair is usually wild and hanging down her back, and her face often wrathful in expression, as she dances on top of a corpse, which represents her complete mastery over ego and ignorance."[2]
Although dakini figures appear in Hinduism and in the Bön tradition, dakinis are particularly prevalent in Vajrayana Buddhism and have been particularly conceived in Tibetan Buddhism where the dakini, generally of volatile or wrathful temperament, act somewhat as a muse (or inspirational thoughtform) for spiritual practice. Dakinis are energetic beings in female form, evocative of the movement of energy in space. In this context, the sky or space indicates shunyata, the insubstantiality of all phenomena, which is, at the same time, the pure potentiality for all possible manifestations.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakini -
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Tue, October 20, 2009 - 5:14 AM
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Tue, October 20, 2009 - 5:19 AM -
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Tue, October 20, 2009 - 5:38 AM -
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Tue, October 20, 2009 - 5:44 AM -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 6:54 AMOrf & Calis.... Why do you both continue to pollute peoples threads with your trash, babble-links? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 7:10 AMexcuuuuuse me!!!! would you mind telling me how you deleted the first post 'O&C..grow up..' and replaced it with that one 'Orf & Calis....etc' !!!!!??????? i mean, seriously.. how did you do that?? -
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This post was deleted by gayle
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 7:46 AMnow then ladies...
neither of you can afford my sweats so you might aswell just make up and stay cool... ;) -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 7:54 AMi still wanna know how she did that whole post-swap thing.. what a total conspiracy -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 7:55 AMwhat post-swap thing...?
which conspiracy are you talking about...? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:01 AMthe first time Lana posted in this thread (like an hour ago or whatever) she wrote: "C&P...grow up..."
i exited without commenting and went on surfing.. next time there was a new post in this thread like a few minutes later was Lana again with that last message about pollutin threads etc and the first one was GONE! without even leaving a *post deleted* thing there. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:02 AMoops sorry i mean C&O (obviously meaning Orpheus n Cali) -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:16 AMwell you know what they say...
when all probable and rational possibilities have been disproved then maybe the solution is irrational and improbable...
I think we have a case of paranormal supernatural stuff happening...
this could be the missing link...
that finally proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that witchcraft and spooky creepy not real stuff isn't just a figment of the imagination of manipulative attention seekers...
this could be the x-file that finally conclusively bridges the gap between spirit and matter...!!! -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:33 AMi could swear you just called me a manipulative attention seeker.. well anyway..
only Lana can answer the question~ she would at least know she wrote 2 messages.. but whether she can say what happened to the missing post is anyone's guess -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:36 AMawww... Cali, I did not call you a manipulative attention seeker???? What are you talking about? I just find that your links & posts, mainly Orpheus actually, often times pollute other peoples threads without warrent, off topic. It feels rude and intrusive.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:38 AMno i was talkin to orpheus!
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:41 AMwell i uuusually start out on topic at least but i guess i get carried away on tangents and conceptualising and babbling from there.. maybe orpheus and i should be separated
anyway i take your point thanks for letting me know how you feel about it i'll keep my meanderings to a minimum -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:44 AMyeah stop the meandering and keep to reposting the same material over and over whilst griping if anybody chats in response to insults... hahaha
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:44 AMLana come on it's an important matter this and your cooperation is needed.. are you aware you posted 2 messages about orpheus n me and one remained? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:46 AMI already answered you. Just scroll back down. I said yes.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 9:06 AMoh yep sorry about that i didn't see that.. but woahhhh ok i just logged back on.. after all that went down on this thread my window (which has been open for daaaaays with multiple tabs, th first few of which i've been meaning to get back to but just haven't worked my way backwards there again) totally closed down, and then i couldn't load tribe at all.. and a fly came out of nowhere and came right up close and got tangled in my hair and was just buzzing around while i tried to shake it out!!!!! i mean seriously.. that shit just doesn't happen heheh. i think it's cos i had the Babalon wikipedia entry open :/ i can't get away with anything can i haha -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 9:46 AM:-) yea..... you know.
Thanks for considering my point CALI. Wave after wave we affect each day.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 10:57 AM -
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Re: :-)
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 1:55 PMCure for Worms: www.youtube.com/watch :-)
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Re: :-)
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 7:00 PM> evil worms...
More and more people are concerned these days about the presence of intestinal parasites and worms in the body.
According to numerous studies, nearly 85% Americans have parasites in their body's. According to the World Health Organization (WHO) intestinal parasitic helminthes and protozoan infections are among the most common infections world-wide. In spite of the fact that the mortality rate among these infections is rather low (in the case of Ascaris lumbricoides, 2 per 100,000 people), due to the high prevalence, these infections are regarded as a serious public health problem.
www.google.com/search
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:41 AMit's obviously proof of occult stuff and quantum space/time anomalies... -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:42 AMlol.... I have my ways.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:43 AMCali I noticed it too. The first post reference O & C then later the post had Orph and Cali. Perhaps this is a group hypnosis thingy.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:33 AMI cannot delete posts here. I am not the Moderator. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:36 AMi understand - but you agree you did write 2 messages re orpheus n i where only 1 remained? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:43 AMYes. I did. Some things are mysterious indeed. ;-)
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:32 AM:-)
(¯`v´¯)
`*.¸.*´
¸.•´¸.•*¨) ¸.•*¨)
(¸.•´ (¸.•´ .•´ ¸¸.•¨¯`•
♪♫♪♫♪♫ ♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♫♪♪
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 11:17 PMllama i meant alpaca
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 4:18 PM"Then, as with a movie, a good book, or a good storyteller, you Suspend your disbelief....."
So, you're saying it's sort of like movies, books, and other forms of entertainment?
"You immerse yourself in it all, experience what others are experiencing, confident that when you return to your state of being prior to entering into this Alternative Reality, that you won't somehow be 'lost' or 'duped'..... but Confident in your Ability to Learn Something Other than what you might hold as a Pre-Conception."
Okay, but how would you be confident that you weren't being ripped off?
Are religion and spirituality just a form of "deep entertainment"? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 6:41 PMAn Askew Analyzing of the prescribed solution indicates a Failure to Comprehend the Means of Comprehension........
Innate, Intuitive wisdom is the Means Whereby One is Confident they can Discern whether or Not they are being "ripped off"
Just as Sex is not necessarily Equal to Love.....
Rationality is not necessarily equal to Wisdom -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 6:51 PMBeing AfRaiD to make MisTakes........
......is the Biggest Mistake of all,
and has Never been the Truest path of learning, ....skirting the Essence of things in order to "play it safe" (very dangerous, clinging to 'safety first')
.............. genius may well abide in the raw strangeness exiled from the Lysol-ed Halls of Conformation-as-told.....(habitually rejected by mediocrity-as-method) -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 8:18 PM"Being AfRaiD to make MisTakes........
......is the Biggest Mistake of all,
and has Never been the Truest path of learning, ...."
Do you think James Arthur Ray offered similar advice to all those people before they went into the sweatlodge?
Sometimes being afraid to make a mistake can save your life. Intuiting not to make a fatal mistake is the most valuable intuition of all. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 8:31 PMYou are TURNINg a Relevant and valuable argument ....into an IRRElevant digression away from a REAL Answer to your Questions Posed. Artful Dodging, Useless Misconceptualizations......... playing-it-safe-as-usual.
Rationalizings
rationalizings
rationalizings
Do you want to LEARN or just POSE?
I Risk my life Frequently, and I Learn, rather than Stagnate.
I ANY Case, People who pay $9,000 for such a course are likely not running on INTUITION ..... more likely they are Very Privileged people LOOKing for a Safe Guru, kind of like people who attend universities in Search of Smartship Gurus at the feet of which to throw their money, time, and lives ..... and to Learn who and what unwashed wisdom to despise and Ostracize ....to shut out, and to laugh at.
This is how & Why I confront......... in a Tantric Manner, and for Free............. and just because free advice is given.... doesn't mean that advice is Worthless................................................... -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 8:37 PM"People who pay $9,000 for such a course are likely not running on INTUITION ....."
So, you think they're making informed, intellectual decisions?
Au contraire. Seizing an opportunity based on greed is an example of intuition in its purest form.
Spouting stupidity and claiming authority just because it feels good falls in the same category. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 8:45 PMThere is quite a Lack of Functional Grasp of the Nature of INSTINCT, as opposed to INTUITION, in your perennial responses, John, despite my Repeated Illustrations of the Differences.
What is to be Done for those who imagine they have an understanding of the complex factedness of Consciousness, that is based on INSTINCTIVE trainings (conditioned responses) by an InSULated academic culture that is out-of-touch with the SPECTRUMs of Life?
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 9:24 PMSo you think greed is an instinct (like birds and bees have) and not an intuition (like humans have)?
Think again.
Intuition
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intu...knowledge)
"Intuition is the apparent ability to acquire knowledge without inference or the use of reason."
Instinct
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct
"Instinct is the inborn complex behavior of a living organism that is not learned."
Intuition is learned, Leslie. It includes the abandonment of reason that characterizes intuitive thinking such as greed as well as racism, anti-Semitism, sexism, homophobia, and other forms of dehumanization.
There are as many bad intuitions as good ones, including the feeling that one knows the truth when that's not actually the case. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 9:33 PMYOU,.... are lecturing ME, about what Intuition IS?
For get it.
Intuition is a higher principle than rationalism, which is as Fully Capable of being Abused and Misconstrued as Intuition.
Your mistake, as usual, is in twisting an isolated event into a "Lesson" on Intelligence (critical thinking), ...when YOUR Vocation and training and life Focus is Quite Limited in the Field.
I don't Venture into Mayan culture, or purely academic matters, because I Know my Limitations..... if you would Do the Same when it comes to CONSCIOUSNESS and SPIRIT ..... we could realize an appropriate balance -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 9:59 PM"I don't Venture into Mayan culture, or purely academic matters, because I Know my Limitations..... if you would Do the Same when it comes to CONSCIOUSNESS and SPIRIT ....."
I don't think you know your limitations very well at all, Leslie.
As for me, I've got both consciousness and spirit. I've had 'em all my life. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 10:03 PMYou've frequently DeNied the very Existence of Spirit, and I'm sure you use the word spirit only in a limited mortal context, as you do the word Consciousness. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 12:14 AMLeslie, why are you debating spirituality with a Rationalist?
Are you a masochist? (not judging...)
Might as well get sex advice from a friggin nun! -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 12:35 AMare masturbating nuns a good source of sex advice...?
anyway...
from what I can gather here "spirituality" is a domain for irrational people to make unfounded claims...
kinda like with marketing manipulations etc...
so as with politics...
the only thing a rationalist can try to do with "spiritual" claims is look on bemused and perhaps find the patterns behind the incoherent babble...
ie instead of debating the disinfo about 9/11 just look at what actually happens... ;)
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 1:46 AMThere has been tremendous evolutionary pressure on developing humans and any form of intuition or predictive ability conferred huge benefits in this struggle.
I think every nationality and tribe have had belief in and lots of stories of the ability to look into the future or have foreknowledge of events. I've experienced it way way way way too many times to categorize. It is a daily occurrence.
We evolved in bands and specialization was key and another tremendous evolutionary advantage. Any band that was all leaders or all mystics or all fire making specialists was lunch for a cave bear or would meet some other dead end. This seems to me to be a strong basis for archetype development!!! One of these archetypes is the mystic. I think of it like musical ability in that everyone has a little but some people have a lot and some people are wizards at it.
Here is the latest "people's pharmacy" radio podcast which is very! good and on the subject of intuition:
www.peoplespharmacy.com/2009/1...llness/
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:00 AMweren't the mystics generally the ones that got off their faces and used superstition to manipulate mob idiocy into the brutalities of animal/human sacrifice and needless warfare/genocide etc...?
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:16 AMThey're justified and they're ancient
And they like to roam the land
They're justified and they're ancient
I hope you understand
They don't want to upset the apple cart
And they don't want to cause any harm
But if you don't like what they're going to do
You better not stop them cause they're coming through -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:26 AMAwwww how sweet!
Hoopes has a fan!!
<SWAK> -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:27 AMHe's little and gold colored...
Lets name him Hoopes Jr!!! -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:42 AM -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:45 AMboys..
www.youtube.com/watch
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 12:23 AMum...
seems fairly obvious to me that...
not admitting mistakes and delusions and fantasies and wilfully persisting in utter lunacies is kinda probably more of a mistake than fear of making mistakes in the first place... hahaha
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 8:16 PM"Innate, Intuitive wisdom is the Means Whereby One is Confident they can Discern whether or Not they are being 'ripped off'"
Hmm. It's too bad that innate, intuitive wisdom didn't help those three people in Sedona to know that they were being killed. That's even more important to know than whether or not you're being ripped off.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 12:20 AM
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Mon, October 19, 2009 - 4:32 PM
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 16, 2009 - 9:21 AM<<<< I picture him with a bevy of polyamorous babes and lovers scattered in cities around the U.S. >>>
whats wrong with that ? ; )
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Hoopes
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 8:30 AM"I suspect a homicide investigation and trial will reveal a lot of tawdry details and TMI about the New Age industry in Sedona and elsewhere. Just as Y2K sucked money into a dotcom bubble that eventually burst, Y2012 is sucking bucks into a "spirituality" bubble that will also eventually burst. Some people only learn important lessons the hard way."
Very True. I knew that Y2K was a scare tactic, a scam. I didn't buy it for one moment. I dreamt it was a commercial hoax. I guess you can say I "intuited" that one. Like so many other times in life.... my intuition served me well :-) And 2012, well that too is being used the same way, touted as an "end of the world" scenario, when really, it's a change of season - a new cosmic astrological tide. People will try to capitalize on anything. It's sad really. Monetary greed is a sign of personal insecurity.
The truth is, no matter where we came from in the past, or where we suspect we are going in the future, the ONLY true reality we have is where we are NOW. In this moment. We are here. What are you doing right NOW? What waves are you eating, thinking, speaking?
What we fantasize, boast, read, do, think, consume, react and act with or against right here & NOW, (inspired by the past seeing into the futurte), is what really matters. Why wait for 2012 to change? The greatest thing human beings have is the ability to reason and understand the "chain reactions" of our actions created here & Now. But who uses that ability? Who here uses their micro & macro-scopic vision with every action they perform? Most people are "waiting" for "tomorrow" to do the job. Can you see the "wave" and "particular" outcome of the present circumstance in your life? It's when we walk away from "reason" that unreasonable things happen. Understand consequence. It's logical to assume that the more we feed our body poison, the outcome will become dis-eased. The body will cease to feel at "ease" in itself and breakdown: Dis-EASE. The same with this planet: The more we continue to promote poison & war eventually will end up with a wasteland of filth and death. It's all about logic really. Simple math. And when you understand this 'wave', inuitively you know.
One of the antonym's for "spiritual" is physical. Yet I see the physical (on a microscopic level) as pure etheric energy: wave-lengths vibrating at differring speeds and tones. Some people are more sensitive to this than others because they are "open". These people in the past have been called psychic. For me, there is not much difference between condensed or sparse waves: it's still a wave. A wave is associated with every particle, and that the wavelength of a matter wave is inversely related to a particle's momentum. It's Life: Us.
We can predict future circumstances based on what we do with, and how deeply we "understand" the "present" wave. Every movement, action, thought creates a wave, moving outward to effect other waves which eventually returns to the Source of the wave. The electron orbits in an atom have discrete radii because the circumferences of the orbits are integral multiples of the electron wave lengths. Each wave contains "energy". When immobile, each wave remains constant which explains quanta. The wavelengths differ for different elements (and also for different orbits within the elements), resulting in discrete orbital radii, or energy levels, which are characteristic of each element. Which means that each cell, element and molecule is "kinetic". Eventually, we will realize that psychic energy in no different from reason. Some people really do have the innate ability to read into the future, by way of kinnetically understanding the past in the NOW. Inuition is based on logic.
You cannot use a solid particle to explain matter. On the contrary, this notion is excluded. An electron is not some metal marble spinning around in space - it is pure energy dancing part of the chain reaction of standing waves born from the nucleus of an atom bound together by electro-magnetic forces. A sub-atomic particle. A wave. Which are never really just "standing". When you understand the basic building blocks of matter, you understand deeper how Life works on an etheric level: wave upon wave. This can be viewed as "spiritual", unseen, yet felt. NOW a days, scientifically logical. :-)
By way of logic, it is safe to assume that the end of the Mayan Calendar is NOT the end of the world. This date is more an astrological movement than anything. Based on the position of the Stars in the Heavens. Astronomically speaking, there seems to be emphasis on a galactic alignment involving our (the solar system) position in regards to the Zenith (center) of our Milky way, and without knowing the full repercussions of these magnetic effects, I suspect that some movements will definately occur (like ocean tides and mass land movements), albeit not all in one day. Whatever the outcome, we really only have NOW to be the fully conscious beings we all seek to become.
What waves are you creating today? -
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Re: Hoopes
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 3:55 PM"What waves are you creating today?"
I strive to create at ripples in these threads almost every day. Some grow into waves, others just flatten out.
"2012, well that too is being used the same way, touted as an 'end of the world' scenario, when really, it's a change of season - a new cosmic astrological tide"
It's hard for me to tell which tactic will unfold into the bigger scam, doomsday vs. transformation. It seems that many the debunkers of the doomsday scenarios are hyping the "transformation of consciousness" ones, but it's a dualistic, false dichotomy. Maybe.
My own hope is that the main transformation of consciousness will be one in which the veils are removed and the harmful methodologies of both scare tactics and scams are revealed and clearly understood as what they are.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 17, 2009 - 10:38 PMi just read that a 3rd person died. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 18, 2009 - 3:47 AM
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Chief Averol Looking Horse Speaks out...
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 7:02 AM
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James Arthur Ray and 2012
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 9:46 PMJames Arthur Ray and 2012 – Dangerous White Bullshit Mascarading as Native Wisdom
theleftwinger.wordpress.com/2009...sdom/
"Awareness: Tell us about knowing that you have a worthy purpose.
"James: Well, I think each and every one of us has a unique gift to give to the world. Whether you look at the Mayans, the Native Americans, the Gnostics, the Hindus, so many of the ancient traditions have told us that this window between 2000-2012 is the time of a radical shift in the consciousness of mankind. What the traditions also maintain is that each and every one of us has this unique gift to bring into the world.
"The great mythologist Joseph Campbell once said, “The only question in life is whether or not you’re willing to say a hearty ‘yes’ to your adventure.” When you are clear on what you’re here to do, then there’s really no choice. I mean, there is technically, but there isn’t because if you’re going to align with it, then there’s really no choice. So it makes life really elegant once you get clear on why you’re here."
www.awarenessmag.com/sepoct0..._ray.htm
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Re: James Arthur Ray and 2012
Tue, October 20, 2009 - 9:48 PM"Special Call: James Arthur Ray and Gregg Braden
Join bestsellling author Gregg Braden and me as we discuss crucial topics such as the importance of the year 2012, cycles of time and 'Hot Dates' that hold the greatest threats of war, peace and economic cycles for our future..."
blog.jamesray.com/2009/09/s...gregg.html
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 7:00 AMSurvivor of Ariz. sweat lodge ceremony speaks out
www.google.com/hostednews...vgD9BFQ2Q80
"As the leader of the 'Spiritual Warrior' event, Ray pushed for participants to go without sleep, enter into altered states of mind through breathing exercises and meditation, compete in a game in which he played God and fast for 36 hours during a vision quest, Bunn said.
"Sheriff's investigators in Arizona's Yavapai County are treating the deaths as homicides but have yet to determine the cause. Ray has hired his own investigative team to try to determine what went wrong, and vowed to continue with his work despite criticism."
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 2:15 PMOn initial reports I thought that the deaths were related to being trampled to death due to an overcrowded lodge. I envisioned this captive audience and someone starts talking about Mayan prophecy and everyone starts bolting for the exits killing two. I had no idea it was heat related. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 2:44 PMI reckon it's not as simple as a case of gross stupidity but a more sophisticated plot of deliberate murder...
a case where only an astute and tenacious detective like columbo might eventually uncover the perpetrators of the dastardly crime...
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 4:44 PMno, just stupidity, carelessness, recklessness, and ignorance! (with a little greed mixed in for good measure!)
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 4:50 PMSweat lodge deaths a new test for self-help guru
Motivational speaker James Arthur Ray teaches that success comes from adversity.
www.latimes.com/news/natio...80058.story
"Americans spent $11.3 billion last year on self-help products and services, according to Marketdata, a market research firm. The industry has grown by 5.5% annually over the last few years, though Marketdata says the economic slowdown will cut that growth rate in half this year.
"The self-improvement industry is dominated by household names like Chopra and Tony Robbins. But James Ray International, based in an office park in Carlsbad, Calif., features prominently in the next tier, with $10 million in revenue and 547.4% growth over the last three years, according to the business publication Inc. Magazine.
"A fit 51-year-old with an accomplished stage presence, Ray tells audiences that he was a bookworm as a child and devoured texts on everything from science to religion, creating a base of knowledge that he would later use to build his self-help practice.
"He was born in Hawaii and grew up in Tulsa, Okla., the son of a Protestant preacher. His father, A. Gordon Ray, and his mother now live in Oceanside, where they have their own self-help business, Horizons Unlimited, which peddles CDs with titles such as 'Principles To Make You Rich' and 'How You Can Have it All.'
"James Ray went to junior college in Oklahoma but dropped out to work in telemarketing at AT&T. He later moved into a job training AT&T salespeople, and it was there that he realized that his life mission was to teach.
"He launched his company in 1992, but it wasn't until 2006 that his career really took off, when he appeared in 'The Secret,' a film in which Ray and others made the case for a 'law of attraction' -- positive thinking makes good things happen and negative thinking can make bad things happen.
"Among Ray's early mentors was Bob Proctor, a veteran of the self-help circuit and author of 'The Science of Getting Rich.'"
Horizons Unlimited International
tocreateyourdestiny.com
Bob Proctor
www.bobproctor.com
Once again, it seems conspiracy theorists (especially the anti-capitalists) may be barking up the wrong trees... -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 5:24 PMPeople may think California's the epicenter of the transformation of consciousness. Maybe it's really Oklahoma.
From the LA Times article:
"Ray tells audiences that he was a bookworm as a child and devoured texts on everything from science to religion, creating a base of knowledge that he would later use to build his self-help practice. He was born in Hawaii and grew up in Tulsa, Okla..."
Tulsa's home to Peace of Mind, one of the largest New Age and Metaphysical bookstores in the U.S.
"Welcome to Peace of Mind Bookstore. Whether visiting us in person or on the web, you'll find one of the nation's largest collections of Occult, New Age and Metaphysical books. We also carry over 175 different herbs as well as stones, crystals, incense, runes, tarot cards, and other wonderful gift items. In addition to the books listed online, our brick and mortar store has over 35,000 additional books. If you don't see what you're looking for in our online listings, give us a call or send an e-mail to see if we have what you're looking for in stock."
www.pombookstore.com/pom/aboutpom.asp
Hey Leslie, didn't you say you grew up in Oklahoma? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 6:09 PMYes, it would look really, Really Bad for me, wouldn't it (?)......... exCept, I lived in Oklahoma City, not Tulsa
.....aw, shucks
amazing, the places a logical mind Goes...... the "connections" it makes
there IS a Better way (to build consciousness) ...a whole Darn Science, in fact. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:16 PMMakes me want to launch into a chorus of Sooner Boomer but on another note....
This whole sweatlodge tragedy reminds me of August 1969. The hippie movement received two fatal blows - The Manson killings and Altamont.
Could this be the death knell for the New Age in a box events? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:20 PM -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:05 PMAlthough the Manson Family slayings took place in early August of '69, public identification of the killers didn't happen until October-November. It was big news in the weeks leading up to Altamont. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 9:12 AM"Although the Manson Family slayings took place in early August of '69, public identification of the killers didn't happen until October-November. It was big news in the weeks leading up to Altamont."
Interesting pivot point end of 69 was when you consider 40 years prior was the Stock Market Crash in October 1929 and 40 years later similar circumstances and characterized as bubble bursts.
I've observed that end of the decade events burst other bubbles of the previous 10 years. In 79 we saw the end of pleasure indulgence ala disco, drugs, sex, sex, sex with the events of John Lennon's death, Reagan's election and AIDs coming June 81.
In 89 we saw more economic bubble bursts with the Savings and Loan crisis and Communism falling with the Berlin Wall - idealistic bubble burst.
In 99 we saw the end of our short-lived isolationist peace and prosperity bubble of the Clinton years. Globalism and the darker sides of Corporatism took form, shape and direction with the Bush regime.
Certainly big shifts occur at the end of decades and perhaps this particular one (leading up to 2012) is more potent since it is the first end of a decade shift in the new millenium. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 9:33 AM> I've observed that end of the decade events burst other bubbles of the previous 10 years
interesting post ... thanks Steven ... im glad you (and a few others) are still around willing to post here -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 11:31 AMYou're welcome Oba. In an interesting aside to this notion, another millenial event occured in 1009 - the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem which of course was tied to events 1000 years earlier.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chur..._Sepulchre
"On October 18, 1009, under Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, orders for the complete destruction of the Church were carried out. It is believed that Al-Hakim "was aggrieved by the scale of the Easter pilgrimage to Jerusalem, which was caused specially by the annual miracle of the Holy Fire within the Sepulchre. The measures against the church were part of a more general campaign against Christian places of worship in Palestine and Egypt, which involved a great deal of other damage: Adhemar of Chabannes recorded that the church of St George at Lydda 'with many other churches of the saints' had been attacked, and the 'basilica of the Lord's Sepulchre destroyed down to the ground'. ...The Christian writer Yahya ibn Sa'id reported that everything was razed 'except those parts which were impossible to destroy or would have been too difficult to carry away'."[15]The Church's foundations were hacked down to bedrock. The Edicule and the east and west walls and the roof of the cut-rock tomb it encased were destroyed or damaged (contemporary accounts vary), but the north and south walls were likely protected by rubble from further damage. The "mighty pillars resisted destruction up to the height of the gallery pavement, and are now effectively the only remnant of the fourth-century buildings."[16] Some minor repairs were done to the section believed to be the tomb of Jesus almost immediately after 1009, but a true attempt at restoration would have to wait for decades.[17]
European reaction was of shock and dismay, with far-reaching and intense consequences. For example, Clunaic monk Raoul Glaber blamed the Jews, with the result that Jews were expelled from Limoges and other French towns. Ultimately, this destruction provided an impetus to the later Crusades.[18]" -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 12:35 PMso what do you see as being the millenial event connected to the destruction of the church of the sepulchre this time round...? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 1:11 PM"so what do you see as being the millenial event connected to the destruction of the church of the sepulchre this time round...?"
False Profits -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 2:35 PMAlright so that was a little tongue in cheeck. If we make the leap as the Wiki article did that the destruction of the church led to the impetus for the Crusades, which created soldiers of the Church en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade
Why not extend the idea to the so-called "Lightworkers" who consider themselves soldiers of the Light? How many of the prophets mentioned here such as Icke justify their points of view as being of the Light? I've observed all sides - far right and far left claiming to be servants of the Light when they are really serving their own ego and profit motive - pretty apparent in this thread's case in point - Ray (as in Ray of Light - coincidence?).
Of course last year we all got a taste of this with the Blossom Goodchild fiasco in October. And while in her case, I didn't see a strong profit motive, it did fall within this blind following of the whatever it is someone wants to believe is "Light". I'm not saying all Lightworkers are zealously driven or given to creating "abundance" as a right of passage. I think of myself as Lightworker in the sense of spiritual inclinations but these past couple of years have really brought home the shadow aspects which are creating lots of chaos and confusion around the notions of Light, Truth and Conscioussness Raising. I suppose it's always been that way in the religious contexts of the past but something is different right now that is coming out in the collective. This V show coming up about ET visitors claiming to be saviors of the planet and turning out to be otherwise brings a lot of what I'm saying into the mass conscioussness which I think is important and a marker for these times. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 2:57 PMwell that's a lot more abstract than what I expected...
I guess I didn't have an idea because I didn't think about it but now I guess the crusades aspect resonates with 9/11 as a pretext to the invasion of iraq etc...
but I guess I was expecting something more local to jesus and jerusalem...
as for the lightworker thing...
I was drawn into that trip because with bush2 and the invasion of iraq that whole prolonged phase was dark beyond belief and I suffered from it as if it were a personal assault so I was desperate for any kind of notion of "spirituality" and redemption...
now it seems like the darkness has settled in like an entrenched ambient evil and any glimmer of light got sucked away by the proliferation of false profits...
but maybe something else is due very soon... ;) -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 3:13 PM"I was drawn into that trip because with bush2 and the invasion of iraq that whole prolonged phase was dark beyond belief and I suffered from it as if it were a personal assault so I was desperate for any kind of notion of "spirituality" and redemption..."
Well as the Wizard of Oz (1939 film btw) showed, seeking the spirituality and redemption outside of yourself is sure disappointment. Balloon boy has left the building.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 8:43 PMAlso, didn't realize you were such a newbie in the lightworker stuff Orpheus. I was hitting metaphysics classes at the Annie Besant Lodge in the Hollywood Hills 32 years ago. I did a 36 hour fast although we were allowed Grape Juice (wasn't pretty) as part of our initiation, along with Kundalini Yoga and Meditation. No one was injured in the process of our "detox".
Those were some the strangest times in my life but very pivotal in sending me on my "way". -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 8:45 PMActually it was a 72 hour (3 day) fast now that I recall. Talk about feeling lightheaded...
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 12:19 AMI'd never even heard of lightworkers until I fell into a particularly desperate phase of isolation and looked for comfort/healing/redemption on the internet...
because it certainly wasn't manifesting itself locally... hahaha
quite the opposite... aaaaaaaargh
so I looked at the plants and the moon and the horoscopes and the tarot and even checked out weird channellings and visited a mayan calendar event as I waited suitably primed with reiki for "the secret" to appear and spun things around trying to please the sacred geometry mob as they bowed down in hommage to the sacred spirograph... hahaha
yup during the long drawn out pre death corridor of darkness I tried to close the door on the profane and tried to open the door to whatever else might be around however ridiculous "mene mene tekel upharsin"...
and it was all very ridiculous but kinda could be sweet or even entertainingly comic at times I guess - with a spliff... hahaha
but I guess I always had a get out clause by saying I was researching the internet cybermind for my work...
and of course being marginalised and broke saved me from the luxuries of sweat death...
I just looked up besant and it looks like maybe I'm related to her... hahaha
so anyway I've never been part of the congregation but I'd had a passing interest in poetry and literature at times which meant I had brushed on occult themes so it wasn't a huge leap to apply that bookish learning to the ambient pop spirituality...
I'd kinda grown up visiting the british museum and finally I ended up seeing the trickle through to the corner shop and witchy housewives...
and quite often the pop stuff seemed like a development of "judaic" notions of racial privilege etc...
and then along with the racial thing there is the notion of rituals and ceremony...
and temples and pilgrimages...
and the myriad demons...
but now of course the prince of darkness is selling hell...
but as orpheus I guess I was always just visiting the infernal realms...
but of course the problem with that visit being that there probably aren't any other realms... ;)
the beginning of november promises to be of some occult significance on perhaps the 9/9/9 configuration...
if you read november as nine of course and if you use the current gregorian calendar...
then it might be an auspicious time to be where the triangles cross...
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 2:34 AM
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 8:56 AM"I'd never even heard of lightworkers until I fell into a particularly desperate phase of isolation and looked for comfort/healing/redemption on the internet..."
That was your first mistake. Kinda like each rice cakes to satisfy your craving for ice cream.
"so I looked at the plants and the moon and the horoscopes and the tarot and even checked out weird channellings and visited a mayan calendar event as I waited suitably primed with reiki for "the secret" to appear and spun things around trying to please the sacred geometry mob as they bowed down in hommage to the sacred spirograph... hahaha"
Sounds like you were trying out all the rides at the New Age playground. More rice cakes when you are in need of real nourishment. When I sought out a spiritual discipline it was also out of necessity. I was a bit insane at the time. Having gone through my parents very intense divorce in my earlier years, I had lots of trauma and a huge split between my hemispheres. I had shuttled back and forth between them and found my own male identity suppressed to defend against my scorned mother's attacks. With my Dad the opposite happened, emotional body took a holiday. I was a mess.
The discipline I got into helped heal these divisions and get to the toxix beliefs I'd carved out that were in actual conflict with each other. All of this was front and center for me at an early age so I had the benefit (although I viewed it as a curse at the time) of having a family situation that would force me to harmonize/reconcile the opposites going on in my life. Kabbalah was a natural extension of this but it took another 30 years to find that outlet.
"but I guess I always had a get out clause by saying I was researching the internet cybermind for my work..."
And was that work the Gnostic point of view? Had you developed that before or after your excursion into pop sprirituality?
The teacher I had just rented the Lodge so it was not a Theosophy teaching although their were some commonalities in drawing upon Eastern traditions. The place had a distinctive vibe though but this was a Hollywood Hills setting in a building probably built in the 1920s which had seen its share of strange happenings.
So my point, is intention is key with any dive into these types of things. The intention will lead you towards your goal even if it is to be disillusioned with "pop spirituality" to find more meaningful anchors in your life - like Tribe. I had my share of disillusionment on my journey and I still do but I've come a long way from where I was at when I began.
This also speaks back to thread in terms of the "victims" in these needless deaths. Were they trying to make a devil's bargain - pain for gain?
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 9:59 AMI have no idea what you mean by rice cakes or ice-cream as I don't really partake in either...
it's not a mistake to look for stuff when you're desperate it's a natural inevitable outreaching...
and it's a great way of finding out that there's nothing nice out there other than various forms of denial...
I thought I'd discovered the great secret and was hoping to find other "enlightened" folk when I visited new agers...
what I dropped into seemed more like crazies playing charades... hahaha
that's all there ever is...
but the forms can vary a little...
arrangements of people doing people stuff...
the gnostic POV came by itself because "reality" and every philosophical work states fairly clearly that this is the realm of evil worms...
intent changes nothing for the road to hell is paved with good intentions etc...
perhaps there is some "merit" in non-participation or withdrawal...?
probably not...
just different steps in the dance of death...
the "victims" of death by positive sweat would of been led along that path by an irresistible chain of absurdity...
had any aspect of the whole been different then the result would have been different...
my "problem" as orpheus is that I am in hell but not of hell...
there's nothing here for me but there is nowhere else to go...
I've never had teachers so I learned that disillusionment is enlightenment... ;)
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 10:55 AM"it's not a mistake to look for stuff when you're desperate it's a natural inevitable outreaching..."
Which should inevitably lead to natural inreaching where if successful, should produce a breakthrough regarding one's own part in helping to shape - if not the events of one's life themselves, at least the filters of perception that color them one way or another. BLACK as your YT link showed for your particular POV.
This in of itself is perfect and appropriate unless you would like otherwise in which case you would need to at least change filters to dial into another POV. I appreciate the contrast however so I take you as you are and know you play an important role.
" it's a great way of finding out that there's nothing nice out there other than various forms of denial..."
What you speak of is the Polyanna viewpoint. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll..._principle which was something I avoided from the beginning. Not all practices are infected with this but you obviously drew these cards in your hand. Too bad and was probably operating in hyperdrive in the sweatbox as the people and leader alike fell into a one-sided perception of what was going on. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 11:28 AMomfg i just opened that link now.. i've been locked out of tribe for like a hundred hours.. so i've hunted down some more of my family tree (only as far back as lord ruthven heheh umm..) done a little shopping on ebay AND reading of an essay on OPENING THE NINTH GATE!!!! unfreakinbelievable! and ive never even heard of the film before tonight! pretty cool that Lucifer is a chick too.. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 11:32 AMAND not only that but it was EXACTLY that same extract that lead me to the essay.. i cant remembr maybe i was on a page about pentagrams or the shriner's symbol.. and there was a little flash ad for some videogame i guess that said that exact thing so i was like OOooOOO ninth gate huh and googled it.. wow huh?
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 11:18 AMwell the older i get the cooler i start thinking my dad is once more; he's been encouraging me to "drop out" for as long as i can remember.. but something about my later upbringing (on my mother and nana's side) nags me to be responsible for society.. so i guess a compromise is sticking around to short-circuit the matrix muahahahaha, nah.. each to their own. whatever.
don't you still imagine there's a perfect place/peoples for you on this planet orpheus? or can't you relax knowing everybody is doing some sickly dance with evil worms right around the corner or something? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 11:49 AMeverybody will suffer and die...
beliefs and associations might make them happier...
but basically people are demons so their associations are demonic etc...
even the kittens and pretty flowers are made of evil worms... ;)
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 3:14 PM"even the kittens and pretty flowers are made of evil worms... ;)"
The Human Genome in 3 Dimensions
www.wired.com/wiredscienc...ctal-genome/ -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 3:23 PMthe evidence is kinda overwhelming...
and I'll bet you a gazillion dollars...
when they give the awards...
for the evil worm TOE...
none of them will...
be given to...
me... ;)
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 12:41 PMpp: "...the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem..."
>>> Me and some friends visited that Church back in 2000 when we were staying at a Kibbutz in Israel. I clearly remember it because another friend of mine had visited it before and gotten creeped out in a certain room which upon further investigation turned out to be the room where Jesus supposedly was held captive. I myself also felt a very heavy eerie energy in that church, especially near the Stone of Annoinment, but to this day I wonder if it was because of the events that had happenened in that place, or because of the strong beliefs & emotions of the people who have visited it, perhaps leaving a trace of psychic energy that accumulated over the decades...
Another strange thing that happened in that church was that me and my friends took some rather blasphemous pictures (climbing on the altars and standing on them - we were teenage punks) and yet none of those pics developed correctly. Perhaps the photography shop messed them up on purpose, or perhaps there's really a strange vibe to that place that cannot easily be explained...
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:36 PMI'm somewhat Ambivalent regarding high dollar New age Eventology ....... it hasn't 'resonated' with my Preferences as much as could be hoped for. The EXclusivity factor is really "over the top" in many cases, such as with this incident.
"New Age in a box" events .... that kind of sums it up. It's not really a scene of universality, and I don't beGrudge those who need that, their benefiting from It, if they can...... But this Could be the Reverse of the 'Death-of-commonality' that occurred in the hippie movement......... think of this as the Death of Exclusivity-by-wealth in the New Age Consciousness..... if That is possible.
hint: Make your Own Events... make your awarenesses eventful....... gather your eclectic tribe(s) of heartspace friends
Go Big Red ... ala .... Crimson blossoming up out of dark infrared, into spectral light octaves (chakra talk, not common knowledge)
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 9:57 PMI've been wondering the same thing: Will the Sedona sweat lodge homicides and the Colorado balloon boy hoax do to the New Age revival and 2012 mythology what Manson and Altamont did to take the air out of Sixties romanticism? -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:09 PMi think it's rather presumptuous of you to call those "homicides"....more like negligence.....
but anyway....
if these events serve to bring a critical eye to "new age in a box" type events, then sure,.....but:
>>do to the New Age revival and 2012 mythology what Manson and Altamont did to take the air out of Sixties romanticism?
i sure hope not.....
the magic of the 60's still lives, believe it or not....and i have a feeling those of us who are onto what's happening now will still be rolling with it well into 2020 and beyond........
in other words THE WHEAT IS MERELY BEING SEPARATED FROM THE CHAFF
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:15 PMI'd hate to see it happen, but some sensational press about a bizarre tragedy during a 2012-themed ayahuasca pilgrimage would probably seal the deal. The trailer for the "2012" movie shows a brief flash of what looks like an imagined Jonestown-like (or is it Heaven's Gate?) mass suicide in the main plaza at Tikal. One of those would be a real bummer, too. However, reality usually proves to be stranger than anything a scriptwriter or visionary could imagine. (Like the Sedona deaths and balloon boy.) -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:19 PM>>However, reality usually proves to be stranger than anything a scriptwriter or visionary could imagine. (Like the Sedona deaths and balloon boy.)
true that......
then again, i think these days anyone who would be gathering at sacred grounds in Mexico would not commit mass suicide, but more like group meditation......we're not all weird ignoramus's
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:32 PMNot really. The Hippie movement had a level of Authenticity that was, none-the-less, corrupted both by its "lowest-common-denominator" ethics, Coupled with the Obscure, but coming-to-light, Fact that much of the Culture was engineered and taken over by Illuminati Influences. My older brother spent time in the State Prison for Marijuana possession, and his cellmate was a character known as Father John L'huarius ..."the Hippie Priest". He was a very wealthy 33rd degree Mason at the time of the rise of West Coast hippiedom, who exercised extreme Psychic abilities, and was "in the Thick" of the Haight-Asbury Scene. There's evidence also that the military researched-engineered the use of LSD to fuel the drug culture in particular ways that could be "controlled" by psychic mindcontrol methods. It was a very "mixed bag" of both positive & extreme negative influences ..... the romanticism was intentionally & purposefully derailed for the sake of Advancing Culture-Consciousness to a Certain Point.... and then Preventing it from fully flowering. The incidents in question may or may not have been Specifically "engineered", but the Impulses-Influences Pushing things in That direction certainly were Directed / Actively-at-work, from interests in powerful places.
The "New Age" as a 'movement' may similarly be subject to corrupting influences........... Yet 2012 comes down to the Real Estate of Time (location, location, location)...... which Extends into the Galactic-Universal .... incomprehensibly Huge in scope and long, long Overdue in karmic purpose/resolution ....... held back only by the Insistences of those here on Earth who want to keep playing the lower consciousness games. 2012 is The Limit to That. Either move into the heartmindspace, or go Back into the vastness of the spacetime continuum relative to pre-2012 Earth. Yes we are In That, and approaching the Gateway Out, if one is "interested". The Politics of spirituality related to very minor incidents (in the huge scheme of things) such as those mentioned, are only going to benefit from Attentions (hello, Alternative realities are Active & Present), even the somewhat negative ones. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 10:45 PM>>It was a very "mixed bag" of both positive & extreme negative influences ..... the romanticism was intentionally & purposefully derailed for the sake of Advancing Culture-Consciousness to a Certain Point.... and then Preventing it from fully flowering.
i am fully well aware of that!
>>The "New Age" as a 'movement' may similarly be subject to corrupting influences
what do you mean "may be"................isn't it obvious?
but as they say....We Shall Overcome..... -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Thu, October 22, 2009 - 11:01 PMas I say, I Prefer Not to "give much Energy" to doing more than observing that Opportunism exists, YET, it Already is Rife throughout the Entire world Culture......hence nothing new to be too upset about. Look at it as a gradual Capitulation towards a more universal culture, albeit with some of the "Same Old" & "Usual" influences..... but mixed with an Improved Vocabulary of Awareness. Just "be prepared" to 'Call people on their bullshit' when they Profess Higher Consciousness but Fail to Deliver. It's an ongoing process in which all of us can get caught, but the Old solutions of undue Shaming aren't the way Up & Out............ Being HighMinded IS the Way Up & Out, and sometimes looking back and sharing a laugh about our own delusions (as we were trained to Manifest) makes a lot more sense than Dwelling on "who's showing what Limitations"..... Point out the limitations, forgive but don't Forget...... and Aspire, always Aspire & InSpire.... -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 12:39 AM"Just "be prepared" to 'Call people on their bullshit' when they Profess Higher Consciousness but Fail to Deliver."
so...?
I'll make that call...
come on people take me to your leader...
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Fri, October 23, 2009 - 9:16 AMYello, ... there's a phonie call for yew.....
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 11:17 AMThe Health Hazards of Saunas and
Spas and How to Minimize Them
PDF:
www.sld.cu/galerias/pdf..._and_spas.pdf
People also die crossing the road......
but this is important news....
as 2012 approaches, sauna deaths increase. -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 11:35 AM"as 2012 approaches, sauna deaths increase"
The story here is not just the three sweat lodge deaths and the many injuries, but the exposé of greed-oriented New Age self-help pyramid schemes. I find it fascinating that James Arthur Ray, whose father was a Protestant minister from Tulsa, Oklahoma who developed his own lucrative self-help and motivational business, developed a similar but even more successful business built on New Age as opposed to Christian mythologies.
Ray was clearly inspired in this by Carlos Castaneda, a plagiarist and charlatan who also spun metaphysical tales with themes of Native American spirituality (based on the fictional "don Juan," a "Yaqui" "sorcerer") into a multi-million-dollar self-help enterprise beginning in the late 1960s. I think the cultural anthropologists of UCLA were partly culpable in Castaneda's rise, since they lent more than a patina of academic legitimacy to what was later proven to be a sham.
That these things haven't gone away, but rather have flourished, in spite of decades of debunking suggests they will have the same staying power (and wealth-generating power) as other religious mythologies. It's only a matter of time before we see New Age temples built on a 2012-based model similar to that of Pastor Jerry Johnston's First Family Church (which emerged as a direct result of the successful "Satanic panic" scam):
First Family Church
ffc.org
Satanic panic
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sata...tual_abuse
Edge of Evil: The Rise of Satanism in North America, by Jerry Johnston
www.amazon.com/Edge-Evil-.../0849906687
"There's gold in them thar hills!" -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 12:05 PMwell the thing is with these ridiculous patterns repeating is that there isn't really anything else possible...
people need to worship at the temple of doom one way or another...
I mean the ray guy seems to me like a total idiot but what do I know...?
kings and presidents seem like idiots to me but I can't even get welfare so how smart am I...?
what exactly are the options on offer on the menu of life...?
and who are those options available to...?
maybe expensive sweaty new age retreats are like golf courses and a necessary hike for aspiring insider traders in the pyramid scheme of life...?
www.youtube.com/watch -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 12:17 PMpeople will always take up the opportunity to make a buck......the existance of charlatans doesn't doesn't mean the things they tell half truths or complete lies about in order to make money aren't true. The only ones who really know what happens on the 2012 date in question are those looking back at it with an open mind. We can't scientifically prove nothing will happen. But we do know it's interesting as far as what's going on in the heavens. To ignore the importance that has been placed on the placement of heavenly bodies since the dawn of humankind (even by cultures as advanced as the ancient Egyptians.....which we only just start to comprehend) would be arrogant.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 1:26 PMpp: "...That these things haven't gone away, but rather have flourished, in spite of decades of debunking..."
>>> Perhaps the method of debunking should be revisited? It has been my observation that religious people won't listen to any atheist arguments, regardless of their accuracy... These people *feel* in their heart or in their being that there's something magical about existence, that there is some higher force that holds everything together for some reason. Telling them that they're delusional will make them shut their eyes and ears and look the other way, because they *know* what they feel is true and they trust their own observations.
I myself feel it too, that "natural mystic blowing through the air"... :)
So I suspect that religions are cleverly designed to take advantage of that mystery, and that in our struggle against the oppressive aspects of organized religion we should approach religious people carefully, without telling them that this natural mystic they experience doesn't exist. We should encourage them to trust in their own discerning abilities, that God (or whatever) has given them all the tools they need in order to try to make the best decisions in their unique situations. That they were born with a brain to reason, a heart to care, a conscious to guide them, and an intuition that connects them directly to 'God' through which they can ascertain that 'God' is no evil jealous warmonger with 'favored children' etc. etc.
Also, that God's creation is perfect "As Is", and that 'All Roads Lead Back To God', so that they can enable their children to freely find their own path instead of hammering a faith into them out of fear that they may end up in eternal damnation. Also, that God's Holy Scripture is written within your being, rather than on a bunch of scriptures written by mortals, and that we have been granted true freedom in free will, so there are no Laws to adhere to, and we are allowed to make mistakes.
That they can increase the magic they feel, their connection with 'God', by having a fuller faith in God's glory and perfection than a blind adherence to scripture allows.
At least, this has been my tactic for a while, and I've had more success with this approach than I had before with my condemning approach.
Here's an old blog I wrote about this after some Mormons visited me last year: people.tribe.net/06c89b08-...29137dd38a -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 1:40 PMaw Ramon..! that blog's gotta be the most wonderful writing i've seen of yours~ real nice :D -
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Sat, October 24, 2009 - 1:48 PM -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 1:58 PMlol f.ckin maniac
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 3:23 PM"In 1976, Bukowski met Linda Lee Beighle, a health food restaurant owner, aspiring actress and devotee of Meher Baba, leader of an Indian religious society. Two years later, Bukowski moved from the East Hollywood area, where he had lived for most of his life, to the harborside community of San Pedro, the southernmost district of the City of Los Angeles. Beighle followed him and they lived together intermittently over the next two years, Bukowski sometimes tiring (he said) of the relationship and sending her on her way.
"After a series of 'hunger strikes' and pleadings on the part of Beighle, Bukowski relented and took Beighle back in. They were eventually married by Manly Palmer Hall, a Canadian-born author and mystic, in 1985."
Charles Bukowski
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Bukowski
The ceremony took place at the Philosophical Research Society, which had been founded by Hall, a pioneering New Age guru best known as the author of "The Secret Teachings of All Ages."
Manly Palmer Hall
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manly_Palmer_Hall
Philosophical Research Society Homepage
www.prs.org
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 9:02 PM>"After a series of 'hunger strikes' and pleadings on the part of Beighle, Bukowski relented and took Beighle back in. They were eventually married by Manly Palmer Hall, a Canadian-born author and mystic, in 1985."<
holy shit they're a regular Shiva and Parvati huh
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 7:27 PM<< in our struggle against the oppressive aspects of organized religion we should approach religious people carefully, without telling them that this natural mystic they experience doesn't exist. We should encourage them to trust in their own discerning abilities, that God (or whatever) has given them all the tools they need in order to try to make the best decisions in their unique situations. That they were born with a brain to reason, a heart to care, a conscious to guide them, and an intuition that connects them directly to 'God' through which they can ascertain that 'God' is no evil jealous warmonger with 'favored children' etc. etc.
Also, that God's creation is perfect "As Is", and that 'All Roads Lead Back To God', so that they can enable their children to freely find their own path instead of hammering a faith into them out of fear that they may end up in eternal damnation. Also, that God's Holy Scripture is written within your being, rather than on a bunch of scriptures written by mortals, and that we have been granted true freedom in free will, so there are no Laws to adhere to, and we are allowed to make mistakes.
That they can increase the magic they feel, their connection with 'God', by having a fuller faith in God's glory and perfection than a blind adherence to scripture allows.
At least, this has been my tactic for a while, and I've had more success with this approach than I had before with my condemning approach. >>
Very excellent post, Ramon. Both in your observations about religious people, and in the way you describe of approaching people with a different point of view with a genuinely respectful, non-condemnatory way. And also in the way you describe how the ability to discern and reason can =complement= and =balance= mysticism, rather than warring with it.
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sat, October 24, 2009 - 9:04 PMyeah i must agree once again, tht was a really fluid appeal! -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Sun, October 25, 2009 - 12:54 AM
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, November 3, 2009 - 11:04 AMFirst lawsuits filed in Ariz. sweat lodge tragedy
www.google.com/hostednews...vgD9BLOG0O0 -
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Re: 2 die in sedona sweatlodge
Tue, November 3, 2009 - 12:26 PMthis guy's going down......spirit don't like people messin' about
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