2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

topic posted Sun, March 26, 2006 - 8:36 PM by  Hoopes
Anyone else here pre-ordered Daniel Pinchbeck's upcoming book?

www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585424838

The scheduled release date is May 4. The back cover will have blurbs from Sting (www.sting.com) and Graham Hancock (www.grahamhancock.com):

"Daniel Pinchbeck's 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl is a dazzling kaleidoscopic journey through the quixotic hinterlands of consciousness, crop circles, and ancient prophecy, as well as an intriguing and deeply personal odyssey of transformation. 2012 presents a compelling and complex teleological argument, weaving together the twilit realms of the human imagination and the harsh realities of accelerated global catastrophe. Its conclusions are surprisingly robust, original, and thankfully optimistic."
- Sting

"A daring and intriguing, sometimes deeply disturbing, very well researched and extremely readable book that puts an entirely new slant on 2012. From quantum physics to aliens, from crop circles to reincarnation, from shamanic hallucinogens to Rudolf Steiner, from the Amazon jungle to Stonehenge, from fragments of jaundiced autobiography to the ending of worlds, Pinchbeck takes us on a mind-bending, paradigm-rattling ride."
- Graham Hancock

Methinks the publication of this book and the release of Mel Gibson's "Apocalypto" will help the 2012 meme to "tip" this summer. Daniel is walking proof of the link between entheogens and increasing novelty. Could it be a coincidence that the 2006 Burning Man theme is "The Future"?

"The author is not some hippy-dippy hedonist staggering down the road of excess but rather a skeptical philosopher of consciousness seeking the enlightened path." - Troy Patterson, Entertainment Weekly

Daniel's brand of skepticism is something altogether different from that of Robert Carroll (www.skepdic.com), James Randi (www.randi.org), or CSICOP (www.csicop.org)

I do expect his book to sell.
posted by:
Hoopes
  • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

    Mon, April 3, 2006 - 8:36 PM
    Daniel's just posted the opening dates of his book tour:

    people.tribe.net/d8382e1b-...c24c382e09
    • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

      Wed, April 19, 2006 - 8:25 PM
      Just a bump to affirm that the word has gone out and to encouage people to pre-order.

      By the way, the ancient Maya were not "obsessed with time," as the blurb suggests. They never invented clocks or wristwatches nor surrounded themselves with timekeeping devices. Look around. There's probably one clock on your computer screen and at least one other somewhere else within your field of vision. How many clocks and calendars are there in your home or workspace. If anyone is "obsessed with time," it is us!

      The Maya were certainly *aware* of time in the sense of both astrological and agricultural calendars. They did consider the supernatural qualities of every day, and often explained events in terms of astrological qualities. However, this was part of a deep appreciation of existence in what they perceived as a cyclical universe. It was not an obsession, but a philosophical pursuit.

      The phrase "obsessed wtih time" is an ethnocentric slam, especially coming from the most obsessive culture that ever existed.
      • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

        Sat, April 22, 2006 - 9:46 PM
        good point, John!

        thanks for the corrective.

        dp
        • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

          Sun, April 23, 2006 - 11:11 AM
          I hope an obession with time doesn't dog your days during these busy weeks of book promotion! It's unfortunate that Mel Gibson is having to delay his film. Timing is everything, and that would have been a cool wave to ride this summer. (The latest I heard was that the film won't be released until December.)

          You might consider possible tie-ins with the rising voices of immigrants in the U.S. from Mexico and Central America. Their perspective is bound to become a recurrent theme as 2102 and Quetzalcoatl filter through the general consciousness. One could argue that it was the "return" of a false Quetzalcoatl in 1519 that was one of the key events in the history of globalization and the exploitative relationships among Europeans and indigenous Mexicans and Mayans. It will be interesting indeed to see how "2012" fares in a Spanish translation among the children of the Feathered Serpent.
  • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

    Wed, May 3, 2006 - 9:10 PM
    Today is the big day. I hope it's a good one for you, Daniel!
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      Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

      Wed, May 3, 2006 - 9:16 PM
      amazon just shipped my copy..........:-).........looking forward to reading it.
      • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

        Wed, May 3, 2006 - 10:54 PM
        What's up with that? My copy is "not yet shipped," with a delivery date between May 9 and May 11.

        Any recommendations for appropriate soundtracks to this book? Something tells me I have to order a copy of "2012" by Old Time Relijun. I love the weird cover art. The sample from "Reptilians" is catchy and the fact that there's a song called "Burial Mound" is damn appealing.

        www.amazon.com/gp/product...1146721345/
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          Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

          Fri, May 5, 2006 - 2:09 AM
          try going to the store and buying it like i did today?
          • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

            Fri, May 5, 2006 - 6:53 PM
            Sorry, we don't have stores where I live...

            I just got word that my copy's now in the mail.
            • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

              Thu, May 11, 2006 - 3:45 PM
              i started reading it last night, and it is wonderful!
              • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

                Thu, May 11, 2006 - 7:46 PM
                I agree. The writing is beautiful, even if the references to Precolumbian culture are problematic at best.

                For the record "Quetzalcoatl" is the name of a deity in Nahuatl, the language of the Aztecs (who lived in the Valley of Mexico, far from Maya territory). The Postclassic Yucatec name for this deity is sometimes glossed as "Kukulcan," which probably comes from "k'uk" (quetzal) and "k'an" (sky, also a homonym for snake, which in turn was a metaphor for the Milky Way).

                I'm unaware of any evidence that the Toltecs were cognizant of the Maya Long Count or Great Cycle, or that they had any consciousness of the 2012 end date. The last inscription with a Long Count date (a system used by the Mayas, but not the Toltecs) is one from AD 909 at the site of Toniná, Chiapas. (Far from Toltec territory.) There are some hints in the Dresden Codex that knowledge of the system persisted after that in some parts of the Maya area, but there is no evidence that the Toltecs or the Aztecs (the worshippers of Quetzalcoatl) had any specific knowledge of or beliefs about 2012.

                As has been mentioned before on this tribe, there is only ONE mention of the 2012 date equivalent in all of the known Maya inscriptions. It is on Tortuguero Monument 6, with the relevant passage translated by David Stuart (and published online this past April 6) as:

                Tzuhtz-(a)j-oom u(y)-uxlajuun pik
                (ta) Chan Ajaw ux(-te') Uniiw.
                Uht-oom ?
                Y-em(al)?? Bolon Yookte' K'uh ta ?.

                "The Thirteenth 'Bak'tun" will be finished
                (on) Four Ajaw, the Third of Uniiw (K'ank'in).
                ? will occur.
                (It will be) the descent(??) of the Nine Support? God(s) to the ?."

                There is a crack (yes, this does happen in real life!) right through the verb that tells what "will occur" in 2012, making it undecipherable. There is some speculation that "Bolon Yookte' K'uh" may be related to a creature known as the Principal Bird Deity, but no scholar has yet identified this figure with Quetzalcoatl. Hence, there is no known Maya, Toltec, or even Aztec prophecy that Quetzalcoatl will return in 2012.

                Surprisingly, there is no discussion of Teotihuacan, the "City of the Gods" archaeology.asu.edu/teo that all of these cultures identified as an ancient origin place. It is here that the earliest and most spectacular Feathered Serpent Pyramid was constructed (see archaeology.asu.edu/teo/fsp ), accompanied by massive human sacrifice. However, there is also no evidence yet that the people of Teotihuacan knew about or even considered the Long Count or 2012 to be of any special significance.

                So, Daniel's book. Wonderful writing, fascinating ideas, but use it as a starting point for pursuing further knowledge, not as an authoritative source--at least for Maya, Toltec, or other Mesoamerican beliefs.

                I do hope that it will inspire people to delve deeper into Mesoamerican history and culture. The best available book on the ancient Maya today is the new 6th edition of R.J. Sharer's "The Ancient Maya" (the updated revision of a book first published by Sylvanus Morley, epigrapher and excavator of Chichén Itzá, in 1946):

                www.amazon.com/gp/product/0804748179

                It was the 5th edition, published in 1995, that first listed December 21, 2012 as the date corresponding to 13.0.0.0.0 4 Ajaw 8 K'ank'in.

                Other good, recent sources:

                The Olmecs: America's First Civilization, by Richard Diehl
                www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500285039

                Mexico: From the Olmecs to the Aztecs (5th edition), by Michael Coe & Rex Koontz
                www.amazon.com/gp/product/050028346X

                An Illustrated Dictionary of the Gods and Symbols of Ancient Mexico and the Maya, by Mary Miller and Karl Taube
                www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500279284

                Popol Vuh: The Definitive Edition of the Mayan Book of the Dawn of Life and the Glories of Gods and Kings, by Dennis Tedlock
                www.amazon.com/gp/product/0684818450

                Chronicle of the Maya Kings and Queens: Deciphering the Dynasties of the Ancient Maya, by Simon Martin and Nikolai Grube
                www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500051038

                Of course, the most fun of all to read about Maya astronomy, mythology, and magic is:

                Maya Cosmos: Three Thousand Years on the Shaman's Path, by David Freidel, Linda Schele, and Joy Parker
                www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688140696



                • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

                  Fri, May 12, 2006 - 12:54 PM
                  hi folks,

                  just a note to say i will be on "Coast to Coast AM" this Saturday night, 11 pm - 2 am PST, 2 am - 5 am EST.

                  Schedule:
                  www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/...13.html

                  Affiliates:
                  www.coasttocoastam.com/affili...aa.html

                  hi John,

                  Thanks for the info. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the deeper ideas presented in the book, at some point - which includes a meditation on what it would mean to access the operative mindset of the Classical Maya, while maintaining a modern empirical consciousness.

                  The problem with the scholarly approach, from what I have read, is that it does little to help us understand the "worlding" of the Mayan world. I think it is quite possible that the thought system developed by Terence McKenna, Jose Arguelles, John Major Jenkins, and Carl Johan Calleman is in fact an entryway into the practical application of Mayan thought. It is, of course, interesting and perhaps significant that McKenna, Arguelles, and Jenkins (I don't know about Calleman) all adapted the methods of the Mayan investigation, using the "inner telescopes" of psychedelic substances to retrieve an entire complex of thought.

                  This thought of the Maya is as much intuitive as rational - it is a system that has to be explored through proprioception, through the activity of all the senses combined with disciplined conscious awareness.

                  Is time speeding up? Are we experiencing essentially the amount of change in one year, right now, as people used to experience in 20 years before 1999, and in 394 years before 1755? Is time not simply a linear "quantity" where each moment is the same as every other, but a qualitative loom of resonances, where different aspects of being are revealed at propitious moments, if people are sensitive to this?

                  How did (and do) the Maya experience their Sacred Calendar?




                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

                    Fri, May 12, 2006 - 1:50 PM
                    Hi Daniel,

                    I'm so pleased that this dialogue has begun! Let me just say that there's not a Maya scholar alive who hasn't made an attempt to understand that culture "from the inside out." There have been some, however, who have gone much further than others in trying to answer deep philosophical issues and understand how the Maya see the world.

                    One archaeologist who made serious attempt at this was Dennis Puleson, who was tragically killed by a bolt of lightning on top of the main pyramid at Chichén Itzá in 1978 (no kidding). He taught at the University of Minnesota, which still honors him with an award:

                    www.hamline.edu/mayasociety

                    Another is David Freidel, who has caught a lot of flak from his colleagues for delving into shamanism and chancing more speculative interpretations of Maya astronomy and philosophy. He's now co-director of the project that was in the news recently for having discovered a new royal tomb:

                    news.nationalgeographic.com/news....html

                    The best source that I know for understanding how the Maya experienced their sacred calendar is Barbara Tedlock's masterpiece, "Time and the Highland Maya":

                    www.amazon.com/gp/product/0826313582

                    She undertook an apprenticeship with a Maya daykeeper, which is undoubtedly the best way to learn this stuff. However, it's interesting to note that one of the reviewers on the Amazon.com website writes, "This is not a work of murky mysticism, and the New Age cultivator of Mayan lore should be advised to stay away. "

                    Personally, I don't think the two camps need to be at odds with each other. Insights can come from all kinds of places, including dreams and hallucinations. The challenge is finding a way to test and verify them in a way that is as close to objective as possible. As I've said in another thread, it's my impression that John Major Jenkins is doing a better job of this than the other independent researchers you mention.

                    I have nothing against "inner telescopes." I just prefer to use instruments than anyone can look through and that permit them to see more-or-less the same things.

                    There is a tremendous amount of sensitive and excellent Maya ethnography. Another example of this would be Jon McGee's work with the Lacandon:

                    www.amazon.com/gp/product/0205332188

                    One of the reviews of "Watching Lacandon Maya Lives" states:

                    "At one level, the book is about social, agricultural, technological, and religious changes that have occurred in a Lacandon Maya community in Mexico. At a second level, the book is a critique of those who invented a Utopian picture of a 'traditional' Lacandon past that never really existed."

                    Neither we nor living Maya communities are well-served by indulgence in romanticism at their expense. I wish you and the authors upon whom you've relied had a deeper understanding of the individuals who have sought a deeper understanding of the Maya and other Mesoamerican cultures. Our hearts are in it, too.
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                      Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

                      Fri, May 12, 2006 - 3:31 PM
                      "I have nothing against "inner telescopes." I just prefer to use instruments than anyone can look through and that permit them to see more-or-less the same things."

                      I'd say these "inner telescopes" are available to anyone really and hold the key to understanding reality through experience rather than through analytical thought. It's just a matter of intention. I agree with what Daniel is saying about "the scholarly approach in relation to understanding the "worlding" of the Mayan world". Academic scholarly thought has its place and it obviously can help us to understand the ancient worlds to a degree, however there is also a "danger", be it in the academic field of archaeology, anthropology or any other mainstream sciences which seem to be "regulated" by very left brain logical thinking. There is danger of tunnel vision, the allegiance to "politically correct" knowledge and research. Laura Knight Jadzyck, author of the book "The Secret History of the World" called it the Thought Police, where egos of one PhD battle against other phd's. People with titles don't mean that they are correct. It just means they played the game right in the world of "getting a degree". Who really regulates the knowledge distributed and taught at universities and colleges....down to high schools?. My point is here that we at times believe to easily what some self-acclaimed authority with some letters before his/her name claims to be true or not true.
                      I have a friend who is professor at Cal Tech in the Nanotechnology department. He told me that his research is highly controlled and funds are giving out only to specific fields.......sometimes as not to question or put in danger rigid beliefs held in that particular field.
                      He also told me about immense ego battles between researchers and professors who put the "I" way before "for the better good of all"
                      Now I cannot say if that applies to the academic field of archaeology or anthropology, but just as a thought.
                      Even Calleman, Jenkins or Arguelles have big egos with big heads and no one wants to compromise their own research which they have invested their whole life into. No one wants to admit "I'm wrong"...or..."I don't know"...and so the whole research about the Mayan Calendar is also an ego battle of "experts" with or without degrees.........of course such "battles" can help to push the envelope and find out new things, however mostly it is not very constructive.
                      In any academic field, at one point it also seems to become more like intellectual mastrubation, rather than constructive research........people just have so much of their egos invested....it's rather funny to watch it all.

                      So....and here it is where these "inner telescopes" can help us. For one thing, psychotropic plants are still to this day highly misunderstood and misused. People judge them without ever having had a full blown psychedelic experience....or they are afraid of them... which is more like being afraid of themselves... because they have the tendency to destroy the ego and cleanse our perception of false and conditioned beliefs....and interesting "side effect".
                      I don't know...I can only talk from my own experiences (mainly DMT and Psilocybin mushrooms) and I have learned through these experiences about the nature of reality and consciousness more than through any book or any time spent in any school.
                      And if we want to understand something like the Mayan Calendar, a calendar/map which seems to point to the evolution of consciousness and since these psychotropic plants have been used by indigenous people who left behind these mysteries, then maybe they DO hold a key to what we're looking for ...whatever it is.
                      I'd love to see Jenkins, Arguelles and Calleman sit together around a fire and eat some mushrooms (how about 5g each?) with intention of getting a deeper insight into the mystery of the Mayan Calendar.................and then let it all fall apart and reconstruct it again together with no "I" but "we"..........but some egos are stronger than others.

                      If we want to understand reality and consciousness better (which is what the Mayan Calendar seems to revolve around) then I think it would be helpful to use these tools given to us by nature (hello!!) in order to explore altered states of consciousness.
                      I'd love to see the how the work of these hard headed PhD's of the Academic scholarly world would evolve if they'd open themselves up to these gifts of nature..........some things we cannot understand from this level of consciousness we're on where we only use 5% of our brain.......and I think the Mayan calendar is one of these things.


                      "If you have to inoculate yourself against the various memes of closure that are around, psychedelics do that. That's why they are so politically controversial and potent because -- more than any other single act that you may voluntarily undertake -- they pull the plug on the myth of cultural meaning.
                      We call these substances consciousness-expanding agents. Well, now, if consciousness does not play a major part in the future history of our species, then what kind of a future history are we talking about?
                      You know, are we going to become stupider, duller, more animal-like? I don't think so. Consciousness is our defining quality, and it must be nourished, encouraged, catalyzed. Never more so than now, because we have a planet in peril."

                      -Terence McKenna
                      • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

                        Fri, May 12, 2006 - 6:24 PM
                        > I'd love to see the how the work of these hard headed PhD's of the Academic scholarly world would evolve if they'd open themselves up to these gifts of nature.

                        I don't know *what* you're talking about. Richard Evans Schultes, an ethnobotanist at Harvard, was responsible for a huge amount of research on these "gifts of nature." It was he who told Bill Burroughs (who himself had an early passion for the ancient Maya, having studied with Alfred Tozzer as a Harvard undergraduate) about yagé, and the rest is history. Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert were on the faculty at Harvard when they started their research on psilocybin. It's not academia's fault that Leary let things get out of hand and created the fallout that eventually shut down what could have been an amazing avenue of research (something Daniel documented quite well in his first book.)

                        Anthropologists like Gerardo Reichel-Dolmatoff, Peter Furst, and Michael Harner--and even Carlos Castaneda (who was an anthropology Ph.D. student at UCLA before he stepped off the path)--have been at the very forefront of these investigations! Harner has even started the Foundation for Shamanic Studies:

                        www.shamanism.org

                        The use of entheogens by the ancient Maya has been a hot potato ever since the publication of anthropologist Marlene Dobkin Del Rio's 1974 article:

                        Dobkin de Rios, Marlene (1974) The Influence of Psychotropic Flora and Fauna on Maya Religion. Current Anthropology 16(2):147-164.

                        She suggested that the ancient Maya were using psilocybin mushrooms, Bufo marinus, and water lilies (Nymphaea alba) along with tobacco as aids to shamanism. This article was published in one of the leading journals and one that is somewhat unique in the publication of extensive reviews by a variety of commentators. Among the individuals whose comments appeared with the article were Peter Furst and Nicholas Hopkins, both of whom were receptive to the idea, and also J.E.S. Thompson and Tatiana Proskouriakoff, who were not. If you want to get a real picture of how academic commentary works, read this article and also the comments that follow. I think you'll discover that ideas that some naively think are novel today were being seriously considered more than 30 years ago. Del Rios was using ayahuasca when Daniel was still in grade school! Sure, she took a lot of heat for her interests, but she was able to pursue a full career in academia all the same.

                        Her article, whose publication corresponded with a crackdown on just about all scientific research on hallucinogens in the 1970s, is one of the very few that deal with ancient Maya use of psychotropics in a serious way. Dobkin Del Rios' suggestions about all of the substances she mentioned have been largely vindicated, but there is still extremely little that's been published on ancient Maya use of psychotropic plants. There is a lot of work that still needs to be done, including identifying positive evidence of their use, including references to entheogens in Maya hieroglyphic texts and identification of their physical remains in archaeological contexts.

                        That said Del Rios herself continued to publish on this topic, one of her most recent contributions being " LSD, Spirituality, and the Creative Process":

                        www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892819731

                        It was archaeologists like Michael Coe who, in the face of substantial ridicule, in the 1970s convinced his colleagues that the Maya were in fact using enemas for the ingestion of psychotropic substances. Unfortunately, we still know relatively little about what exactly was being used and how. With careful reseach, not speculation, we'll get there.

                        Sure, academic has its issues. They're everywhere, and often have more to do with money than personalities. I don't have much patience for individuals who rail against academia without having bothered to read anything that scholars have actually written. There may be immense ego battles, but the bottom line is still the generation of new knowledge. Who's been at the forefront of that?

                        The first person to comment on the correspondence of the Maya Great Cycle end date with the winter soltice in 2012 wasn't Arguelles or McKenna or Jenkins, but Victoria Bricker, an academic Maya epigrapher (as reported by Munro Edmonson in "The Book of the Year: Middle American Calendrical Systems" in 1988). The mechanics of the Maya calendar were first worked out correctly in the 1890s. This information has been around for anyone to study for more than a century. It's not a new discovery, just one that hasn't caught the facination of a lot of people until recently, perhaps being primed by the whole Y2K millennial hype. I may have been a little slow on the uptake, but I've been mentioning December 21, 2012 to my students since 1995 (when the date appeared in one of the appendices to Sharer's 5th edition of "The Ancient Maya.")

                        Anthropologists and archaeologists are not the bad guys here. They were opening themselves up to these "gifts" and other ones before most of world even knew they were there. They were studiying with shamans long before the first ayahuasca tours got started. They've been thinking and writing about this stuff for a long time now. Do a little homework and you'll see. Our knowledge has evolved quite well, thank you. It's nice to see that others are finally taking some interest in it.
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                          Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

                          Fri, May 12, 2006 - 9:05 PM
                          Thanks for the insights, John........I certainly didn't mean that Anthropologists and archaeologists are bad guys at all and I obvioulsy don't have a vast background in that matter as you......I just felt that this whole 2012/Mayan Calendar discussion becamoe more a "who is right" rather than "let's work this out together for the better good of all"....specifically in regards to Arguelles, Jenkins and Calleman.
                          All three of which I think do their best to bring this kind of knowledge to the people who are not anthroplogists or archaeologists.
                          Also, obviously, since you are an archaeologists, you read and study things in a different way than the average layman...jsut like a musician listens to music differently than a non-musician.....so in regards to psychotropic plants...I feel they can help us ALL, no matter if one is a layman or "expert" in terms of the Mayan Calendar/2012 and the rest of it.
                          That was the point I was trying to make.
                          Thank you.
                          • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

                            Sat, May 13, 2006 - 6:51 PM
                            My pleasure! My personal feeling is that anyone can participate in the expansion of knowledge. It is counterproductive to set up imagined battles or focus on factions or camps. There are many different perspectives on this issues, including the very critical voices of indigenous people themselves. We could all be more reflexive, admitting our biases and considering viewpoints radically different from our own. Anthropologists have not done the best job of bringing knowledge about what they do, how they do it, or what they've learned to a broader audience. I don't think it's for lack of trying, but for lack of support--especially financial. Billions are spent on military technology to kill each other, but only millions are spent on understanding how to appreciate and live with each other. We could all do a lot better.
                    • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

                      Fri, May 12, 2006 - 5:18 PM
                      > One archaeologist who made serious attempt at this was Dennis Puleson, who was tragically killed by a bolt of lightning on top of the main pyramid at Chichén Itzá in 1978 (no kidding).

                      Yikes! Talk about receiving a direct transmission from the gods... how sad that the courageous explorer never lived to tell his tale...
  • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

    Mon, May 15, 2006 - 7:12 AM
    I'm now about halfway through Daniel's book. I will try to find the time to post some detailed commentary when I've finished it. I have to say that I'm disappointed by Daniel's wide-eyed gullibility when it comes to issues like ESP, crop circles, alien abductions, ancient civilizations, and the like.

    He seems intent on styling himself as the Art Bell of the "lit scenester" crowd.
    • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

      Mon, May 15, 2006 - 8:34 AM
      hi john,

      Please try to make sure you are not projecting your own preconceptions onto my work. I think I am very far from "wide-eyed gullibility" on any issue. It may be that people like you - who have been indoctrinated in a secular materialist worldview that allows them a comfortable academic life - will have to read the book more than once to separate their own prejudgements from what is actually present on the page, and in the reality of these phenomena.

      I have always been quite skeptical and hard-headed, but I am also open to new information and willing to explore subjects that few others will dare to investigate, because of their worries about their own credibility, and the reactions of their peers.
      • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

        Mon, May 15, 2006 - 9:13 AM
        I also find something deeply disingenous in your postings above. There is still a great divide between the thought system of archaeologists and those intellectual visionaries who have sought a different path to understanding the essence of indigenous cultures such as the Maya. Harner, for instance, left academia when he realized the central importance of shamanism, and the necessity of creating shamanic practices for the modern world - going into "the interior of the earth," to use the alchemists' phrase, rather than simply exploring the exterior. Del Rios' understanding of the ayahuasca experience was quite superficial. I believe I discussed this in Breaking Open the Head.

        I do not mean to trivialize or dismiss the crucially important work that these archaeologists and anthropologists have done in recovering aspects of ancient cultures along with their artifacts and monuments. But I do think it is important to recognize the limits of the academic paradigm, and how it has kept certain approaches and forms of awareness outside of the discourse. For instance, when I was in school, we studied Freud but Jung was ignored - if his name came up, he was immediately dismissed as a "fascist," or in some other way that made it clear we should pay no attention to him. It is now absolutely clear to me that Jung was a much more disciplined scientist than Freud, as he understood the "reality of the psyche," and its manifestation through archetypes, synchronicity, etc.

        In reading Maya Cosmos by Friedel and Schiele, there was certainly an appreciation and helpful exegesis of the Mayan sacred culture and their rituals. But there was no real sensitivity to the possibility that there could be, in fact, supernatural or occult realities with which this culture may have made literal contact - and in fact, these contacts may have been the essential matrix of the Classical Mayan civilization. I interview Friedel for my book, and his comments make clear his incapacity to conceive that this civilization could have functioned in such a way. To quote from my book:

        'The sacred culture of the Maya, for Friedel, was high-minded ornament, revealing their hopes and ideals, rather than direct meetings with metaphysical realities or galactic minds. “All civilized societies have a high culture which represents their most beautiful dreams. We have our paintings of George Washington carried up to heaven. We have our sacred space and our civil vision of the good.” '

        There is a huge cultural bias revealed here, and in his other statements (such as 2012 representing a date like "an odometer clicking over").

        I would like to propose that you, John Hoopes, might have a lot of work to do to integrate another perspective on what might be going on with the sacred culture of the Maya - and by extension, our own contemporary reality. A high-handed dismissiveness and the effort to flood your posts with a huge number of references to other scholars and books is not going to do the trick - real humility and careful thought about what I am saying in my book might help shift your perspective, if you are willing to engage in such a task.

        To quote Jean Gebser from my book: "All work, the genuine work which we must achieve, is that which is most difficult and painful: the work on ourselves. If we do not freely take upon ourselves this pre-acceptance of the pain and torment, they will be visited upon us in an otherwise necessary individual and universal collapse. Anyone disassociated from his origin and his spiritually sensed task acts against origin. Anyone who acts against it has neither a today nor a tomorrow."

        As for the scholar who got struck by lightning on top of the pyramid, I had never heard of him or that story before - but it is an anecdote that might be worthy of deeper consideration.
        • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

          Mon, May 15, 2006 - 9:51 AM
          > I would like to propose that you, John Hoopes, might have a lot of work to do to integrate another perspective on what might be going on with the sacred culture of the Maya - and by extension, our own contemporary reality.

          I'm already ahead of you, Daniel. I have a book chapter in press entitled "Sorcery and Trophy Head Taking in Ancient Costa Rica. In 1995, at the Society for American Archaeology meetings in Salt Lake City, I presented a paper entitled, "Of Shamans, Priests, and Wizards: Archaeological Approaches to the Identity of Magical Agents in Ancient Costa Rica, Panama, and Colombia." Three weeks ago, at the 1996 SAA meetings in Puerto Rico, I presented another paper entitled, "The Were-Saurian in Chibchan Iconography: Therianthropy and Shamanism in the Archaeological Record of Central and South America." This July, I'm presenting two separate papers on the theme of ancient shamanism in Central America at the 2006 International Congress of Americanists in Seville. I'll also be teaching a new course, "Shamanism Past and Present" at the University of Kansas in Spring 2007.

          I have a strong, intuitive sense that magic, sorcery, and the use of entheogenic substances were part of the daily lives of the Mayas and other Precolumbian peoples. However, I've also been trained to know what methods can, and can't, be used to build arguments that are acceptable in a rigorous academic environment. It is damn hard to do and there are few shortcuts. David Freidel knows this better than anyone. I assure you, there is nothing like confronting the available, acceptable data and the sharp scrutiny of experienced, dedicated colleagues to instill a deep sense of humility!

          I do hope you and others will learn more about archaeologist Dennis Puleston, since that would be an honor to his memory. A good start would be to look at one of his last papers (published posthumously):

          "Pathways to Darkness: The Search for the Road to Xibalba" (with Barbara MacLeod). In Third Palenque Round Table (University of Texas Press, 1980).

          He had a deep interest in Maya rituals, mythology, and the use of caves.
          • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

            Mon, May 15, 2006 - 3:11 PM
            "In 1995, at the Society for American Archaeology meetings in Salt Lake City, I presented a paper entitled, "Of Shamans, Priests, and Wizards: Archaeological Approaches to the Identity of Magical Agents in Ancient Costa Rica, Panama, and Colombia." Three weeks ago, at the 1996 SAA meetings in Puerto Rico..."

            Whoa there! Somehow, in the heat of the moment, time got out of hand and I slipped back a whole decade. The papers were in 2005 & 2006, not 1995 & 1996!
      • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

        Mon, May 15, 2006 - 9:32 AM
        I hope this discussion won't devolve into a squabble of charges and counter-charges. I say you're gullible and you say I've been "indoctrinated." You insinuate that I'm this way because it allows me a comfortable academic life. I could easily respond that pop purveyors of pseudoscience, from Carlos Castaneda to Von Daniken to José Arguelles to Graham Hancock to you, have also done so in pursuit of wealth and comfort. I hope we don't need to go there.

        I'm not coming at this as a neophyte. I come from a long line of serious Freemasons and Rosicrucians and was participating in dinner table discussions about Egyptian religion and reincarnation while I was still in grade school. In the 1970s, I used to hang out and even take courses at the Aquarian University of Maryland (A.U.M.), a school of alternative thought started by artist and philosopher Bob Hieronimus:

        www.21stcenturyradio.com/media...s.html

        "Dr. Bob" has been "planting the seeds for the transformational age since 1966" and maintains a rich website for New Age inspiration:

        www.21stcenturyradio.com/index.html

        No one at A.U.M. ever tried to indoctrinate me, nor did I subsequently encounter any Svengaliesque professors at Yale or Harvard, where critical thinking still ranks as the #1 priority in valued academic skills. I've been able to explore and evaluate this stuff on my own quite well, thanks, including the use of occasional "inner telescopes." I was obsessed with the "occult" when I was in junior high and was reading Ignatius Donnelly, Helena Blavatsky, and Aleister Crowley and writing papers on Atlantis and archaeoastronomy more than thirty years ago. I read transcriptions of Betty and Barney Hill's "abduction" when I was in high school. I've looked at Waldeck's etchings and read Le Plongeon's books. None of this is new to me. I'm even teaching a course on it.

        www2.ljworld.com/news/2005...ign_theory

        www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx

        Before casting any stones, I think you should consider your own preconceptions. (You were pretty unfair to anthropologists in "Breaking Open the Head." I'm not sure where that comes from.) I like to think of myself as open-minded, but that includes retaining the ability to reject what doesn't make sense.

        There is a long tradition of debunking by professional magicians, including the great Harry Houdini, the Amazing Randi www.randi.org, and the awesome Penn & Teller, whose Showtime series "Bullshit" www.sho.com/site/ptbs/home.do is brilliant. (They dealt with alien abductions in the first season, along with remote viewing and penis enlargement scams.) There are a number of professional archaeologists, myself included, who see ourselves as part of the same tradition. Like the magicians, we know how all too well how slight-of-hand and smoke-and-mirrors can be used to baffle and amaze. That's why, like Houdini, we feel compelled to expose charlatans, quacks, and sloppy thinking.

        I'm disturbed by Americans' proven gullibility, which has been proven to be almost limitless by the past two national elections. I'm very concerned about intellectual dishonesty, especially by smart, literate, an articulate people like yourself. For the past few years here in Kansas, we've been battling Creationist and "intelligent design" ideologues who carry the anti-evolution banner. Your book comes across as an attack on rational thought from the other direction, but in a fashion that is potentially just as damaging. I find no fault in the motivations: Both fundamentalist Christians and progressive New Agers want to make a better world. The problem is with the methodologies.

        It takes a lot of self-discipline not to be a wolf among the sheep.
        • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

          Mon, May 15, 2006 - 10:26 AM
          Daniel, what do you think of Martin Prechtel?
          • Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl

            Mon, May 15, 2006 - 1:53 PM
            i think the book arrived thurs or friday
            i have gotten thru the first "book"

            so far it kinda seems like a re-cap of
            the first book and the burning man talks...
            but with a few more mind blowing observations

            including:
            statistical validity of some sort of esp phenom (although w/o a viable millitary app