World's Largest Pyramid Discovered: Lost Mayan City

topic posted Mon, October 26, 2009 - 10:16 PM by  Unsubscribed
>>> I'm not sure how old this 'news' is, but it was news to me ;)

World's Largest Pyramid Discovered, Lost Mayan City Of Mirador Guatemala
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  • I guess it's "news" to most people, since profound ignorance about the ancient Maya is widespread. (How many documentaries refer to the "mysterious" Chinese or the "mysterious" Hindus these days?) For a good general book on the ancient Maya, which includes discussion, a map, and photographs of El Mirador and nearby sites, I recommend this one:

    The Ancient Maya, 6th edition, by Robert J. Sharer & Loa Traxler

    (The first author, Bob Sharer, directed some of the excavations at El Mirador back in 1982-83.)

    El Mirador was actually discovered back in 1926 and first photographed in 1930. However initial mapping didn't begin until 1962. More detailed mapping (including the discovery of the Danta pyramid complex) and excavations of some spectacular architecture (including the remains of spectacular stucco masks on the El Tigre pyramid) took place in the early 1980s. I worked on some of the Classic period ceramics from the site and actually came close to doing my dissertation work there, but the initial project hit a rough patch. It ended in 1983, just as I was about to get started there, so I had to do something else.

    Archaeologist Richard Hansen (the project director in the CNN video) has been working there for over twenty years. You can read more about his Mirador Basin Project here:

    There is also some information in Wikipedia and elsewhere (follow the links or Google):

    Mirador Basin

    El Mirador


    Hansen was the principal archaeological consultant for the movie "Apocalypto," and Mel Gibson has been a major benefactor of the research at El Mirador and neighboring sites.

    Part of the reason the site is not better known is that it is in a very remote area and can only be accessed by air or by long, difficult hiking through dense rain forests. There have been regular treks to El Mirador for many years, but Guatemala has put its energy in to promotion of Tikal, not El Mirador, as a principal tourist destination.

    The main reason it's in the news is because of Hansen's active conservation efforts. El Mirador and other sites in this region are exposed to substantial looting, which is getting worse as roads get closer. Guatemala doesn't have the resources to adequately protect it, so international organizations need to get involved.

    The ancient Maya were spectacular indeed. They're just not as "mysterious" to archaeologists as people think. I've been commenting for years how unfortunate it is that there is so much crap spread about the Maya calendar and 2012 when the *real* story of the ancient Maya is so much more interesting. Let's hope that 2012 fantasies are the "gateway drug" to intelligent critical interest and academically informed wonder--instead of wide-eyed gullibility and ignorance--in the civilization of the ancient Maya.
    • Thanks hoopes.

      They make it sound like the popul vuh images in stone are new find and changing current concepts of this, is this not so? They certainly are cool looking, and it sounds like so little of it has been excavated.
      • And the TeeVee people wonder why their medium has become a laughingstock.
        • I think it is a very good presentation actually. It needs to be publicized for the campaign for heritage site for it's own protection.

          Hoopes did not say if the stone popul vuh has been known for a long time. It is news to me is all i know, and it is very cool. Hansen is inspiring, and has done great work there. His enthusiasm and passion for the area and its history i thought really came through strong. The reporter did seem a little ditzy, but not unlikable. The wikipedia article has little about this, and this seems like a lot of new work and finds on a long established site.
          • "I think it is a very good presentation actually. It needs to be publicized for the campaign for heritage site for it's own protection."

            I have difficulty watching the mainstream's media's death throe antics anymore - their pathetic perception that only up-to-the-nanosecond current events will hold a viewers attention anymore, and this video is a prime example of that. I mean what was the reporter thinking about the "breaking" discovery as she looked at the weathered wooden railing at the top of the pyramid which had obviously been in place for many years to keep people from falling off the precipice?
            • Well, i haven't had a tv in a long time and am not exposed to much of it. The piece that aired on tv was kinda flash and breathlessness, though the material was interesting and it was not the worst such presentation by a long shot. The other cnn pieces that you have to go to their site to get are actually pretty good. "Early Mayan art and color" "The popul vuh shown " ande "true heros or el mirador" are cued up on this site, and they are all well worth watching , solari.

              • Yes, they are worth watching. I am just taking issue with the elementary school level news reporting that has somehow been allowed to pass for adult news reporting these days. I can't really stomach The TeeVee News anymore, but during a recent bout with the flu I entertained my vegetative state with channel surfing for a couple of days and was amazed at what a rathole of violence, titillation and superficiality the Box has become. I did enjoy Link TV though.
                You just caught me on a bad hair day.
    • Unsu...
      wow... so the Popol Vuh (the mayan creation myth) wasn't tainted by the Spanish Conquistadors at all, like some may have thought. So fascinating....
      • "wow... so the Popol Vuh (the mayan creation myth) wasn't tainted by the Spanish Conquistadors at all, like some may have thought. So fascinating...."

        I think what's been at issue is whether the text translations have been influenced by Christianity and the Conquistators. John, has the Popol Vuh mythology itself ever been in question as being post conquerors?
        • Lana's conclusion is pretty bizarre. It's sort of like concluding that Greek astrology was preserved intact in Linda Goodman's "Sun Signs" or that the Jewish Torah is reproduced intact in a modern Christian translation of the Bible.

          El Mirador has some stucco reliefs that apparently represent the Hero Twins from the Popol Vuh. These guys may also appear in stone sculpture at the much earlier Olmec sites of La Venta and El Azuzul. Scenes from the Popol Vuh may also be present in artwork at Izapa and San Bartolo. They are also abundant in Late Classic painted vases.

          However, these are scattered images of possible scenes. Going from them to the written Popol Vuh as we have it today is like going from a gallery of Greek & Roman sculpture to Bulfinch's "Mythology."

          The version of the Popol Vuh that we have was written down by someone who had been taught to write by Christian missionaries, and was probably even a convert to Christianity familiar with the content and structure of the Bible. It is the product of syncretism.
          • Unsu...
            lol... Hoopes they are not "my conclusions".... but something that was mentioned by the reporter in the Video and I just re-mentioned it: <<<<< Check out the segment of the Video "Popol Vul shown". Why would she say that if there were not some Truth to it? Apparently the "stucco" you talk about is "THE CREATION STORY". That site IS the Capital of the Classic Mayan civilization, actually it is the PRE-Classic Civilazation that influenced the WHOLE Mayan civilization. So what are you saying Hoopes? What they are finding is just a "possible scene"? Perhaps if you were on the dig persoanlly you might feel alittle differently and know for sure first hand.

            Actually you should watch all the Segments in the Video. It is so fascinating.....

            Hey and for the future: It would be really nice, in a thread that we both participate in, if you would adress personally to me in an ongoing thread (I do not mean privately of course) any "bizarre" actions or comments you may thinnk I have instead of speaking like I am not even here. Just a thought.... to be respectful.

            Thank you. :-)
            • "Why would she say that if there were not some Truth to it?"

              Umm. Because she's human?

              "That site IS the Capital of the Classic Mayan civilization"

              Well not, not really. It was a very important place, but the concept of a "capital" of a whole civilization probably doesn't apply to the Maya in the Late Preclassic (ca. 500 BC - AD 200). El Mirador was big and powerful, but it's not at all clear that the Maya were politically centralized at this time. Another important, contemporaneous settlement at this time was Kaminaljuyu, in the highlands (where Guatemala City is now located).


              There was also an occupation at Tikal during the Late Preclassic:


              Another big center that was flourishing at the same time as El Mirador was Teotihuacan in central Mexico, the center of its own civilization:


              "it is the PRE-Classic Civilazation that influenced the WHOLE Mayan civilization"

              Well, sort of. The "whole" Maya civilization was also influenced by Izapa, Teotihuacan, non-Maya neighbors to the south, etc. There was no uniform or monolithic "Pre-Classic civilization" of the ancient Maya. It actually varied quite widely from place to place, with regional variations in the Yucatan, Chiapas, highland Guatemala, lowland Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, and so forth.

              "So what are you saying Hoopes? What they are finding is just a 'possible scene'?"

              Yes. Sort of like a depiction of a "possible scene" of Moses confronting the burning bush or of Jesus on the cross, which is not the same as the whole story itself, or of the way those stories came to be interpreted after many, many centuries. The stucco--a form of limestone plaster modeled over stones--at El Mirador is at least 1500 years older than the written account of the Popol Vuh.

              "Hey and for the future: It would be really nice..."

              Okay. Sorry about that. Some people actually *like* to be thought of as "bizarre," but you're right. I'll try to be softer.
        • Speaking of the issue of syncretism, it's ironic that many of the same people who buy deconstruction of the Christian myth in the work of Acharya S. and the film "Zeitgeist" seem loathe to apply the same kind of analysis to the new 2012 mythology.

          I just wrote the following messages to some friends, but I think this crowd will find them interesting, too. The answers are in response to questions recently posed:

          "1. Can we locate any direct mention of 12/21/2012 before 1985?"

          Yes. It's directly mentioned in Table B.2 (p. 603) of the revised 4th edition of "The Ancient Maya" by Sylvanus Morley, which was published in 1983.

          "2. Where did Arguelles get the year 2012 for The Transformative Vision? And when & how did he come across 12/21/2012 as the end of the Long Count?"

          The answer to the first question is: Simple math. Coe (1966: 149) mentions the creation date of 3113 BC. All Arguelles needed was the length of the Great Cycle (which in 1975 he says is "a larger 5,125-year cycle"). 5125 - 3113 = 2012! I'd have to check to see where he got the 5125 number from, but it may have been the 1956 edition of Morley's book (Coe says it's "something less than 5,200 years," which isn't helpful.) What I do know is that Arguelles probably didn't get the year 2012 from Tony Shearer, since Shearer makes no mention of it all all in his own 1975 book.

          The answer to the second question: I think Arguelles came across 12/21/2012 on p. 603 of the 4th edition of "The Ancient Maya," which was published in 1983. When that happened, he had some kind of epiphany, which was enhanced after his meeting with McKenna in 1985 and set him off on the road that led to the Harmonic Convergence, "The Mayan Factor," and all that followed. We know he read Waters' book "Maya Mystique," since he wrote a book review of it (!) for The Shamballa Review in 1976 and then cited it (much later) in "The Mayan Factor" (1987).

          3. When & how did McKenna come across the date?

          Sometime before 1975 is all I know. He could have gotten it the same way that Arguelles did, or it could have been (as Dennis McKenna asserts) a coincidence. Personally, I find it hard to believe that McKenna didn't read early editions of both Coe and Morley.

          "4. When was the date put into the Timewave Zero software--it is undoubtedly there by 1985 at Ojai and seems to have been there for at least a little while prior (this seems potentially verifiable by talking to the mathemeticians who made the software--who as far as I know are still around and available)?"

          Sometime between 1983, when the 4th edition of "The Ancient Maya" was published, and July 1985, when he met Arguelles at the Ojai Institute.

          "If Burroughs is writing about this in the 50s, where did he pick up the notion from. The way he describes it in "The Mayan Caper" seems essentially the same as the general treatment in the 2012 phenomenon, just without mentioning a specific date."

          (See below.)

          I speculated that Arguelles got the 5,125 number from the 1956 edition of Morley (which had been revised from the 1947 edition by George W. Brainerd), but it's not there. At least not directly.

          Morley/Brainerd is tricky! They never explicitly gives either the starting date nor the end date for the Long Count, but he provides enough information in various places to calculate each. For example, the 5125-year length of the Long Count can be derived by taking the number of days in a baktun (144,000), multiplying them by 13 (the final number of baktuns mentioned by Coe), dividing by 365.2425 (or even 365 1/4), and then rounding:

          144,000 * 13 = 1,872,000
          1,872,000/365.2425 = 5125.36191 or 1,872,000/365.25 = 5125.256673

          Either of these answers rounded gives 5125

          However, neither of these is *exactly* 5125 (the reason for the extra days)

          The 1956 edition of Morley's book gives the following clues to get the Long Count start date (these are also present in the original 1946 first editon):

          1) The date of the Leyden plate is or 320 (p. 51)
          2) is 3,433 years after the zero date (p. 242)

          3433 - 320 = 3113 BC

          As I noted above: 5125 - 3113 = 2012

          Morley 1956 does not mention that the total great cycle is 13 baktuns long (I still need to figure out where *that* comes from before Coe mentioned it in 1966). In fact, I can't seem to find any discussion of Maya end-times mythology at all in the 1956 edition. There is a great deal of this in the first (1946) and second (1947) editions of Morley--one of which would have been the one Burroughs was using in 1950 and the source of his "Mayan Caper" ideas--but it looks as if Brainerd may have *removed* it from the 1956 edition. (I'm now very curious about that, and will have to go and compare these different editions!)

          However, theoretically, ALL of the information needed for derivation of just the *year* 2012 can be found in a combination of information in two popular, readily accessible books that were available to Arguelles: The 1946, 1947, or 1956 editions of Morley's "The Ancient Maya" and the 1966 edition of Coe's "The Maya." In theory, careful work with other data could have given either the December 23 or December 21, 2012 date, too, but there's no evidence that either Arguelles or McKenna went that far until someone else (Sharer) did it for them in 1983.

          To get back to Burrough's "Mayan Caper" stuff: He clearly got his ideas about the ancient Maya directly from either the first or second editions of Morley's book. However, here's a *very* important point: In his 2006 autobiography, Michael Coe notes that Tozzer made a remark about how he was annoyed that Morley's book didn't contain adequate citations. In fact, most of Morley's discussion of Maya "end time" prophecies came directly from footnotes to Tozzer's own meticulously documented 1940 translation of Bishop Diego de Landa's "Relación de las cosas de Yucatan." Morley's uncited paraphrasing of Tozzer is so close that, to me, it borders on direct plagiarism. What Morley left out, however, is that most of the mythology he discusses comes from post-Spanish Conquest (not *ancient* or pre-Conquest) sources--including ethnohistoric ones--that represent a clear syncretism of Christian and Maya mythology.

          In brief, the "end-of-the-world" disaster scenarios that Burroughs discusses are almost certainly ones that originated in the *Christian* eschatology of Franciscan missionaries, and therefore are *not* authentically Maya.

          It was Morley's paraphrasing (or "plagiarism"?) of Tozzer--as well as uncritical thinking by individuals who did not go back to the original sources--that lay the foundations for the current mythology of Maya prophecies about 2012. That is, the prophecies may be "Maya," but they came from missionized, Christian Maya who had already learned about both the Great Flood and the Book of Revelation. The 2012 mythology therefore is appealing because it *seems* to confirm *Christian* mythology when it's just a repackaging of the Christian myth itself.

          Anyway, just one more little bit about McKenna to tie things together: 1) Both Burroughs and Ginsberg were fascinated by the ancient Maya, with Burroughs going to Mexico to study Maya hieroglyphs while Ginsberg later hung out at Palenque, 2) Burroughs and Ginsberg later corresponded about their ayahuasca experiences in Putumayo, Colombia in "The Yagé Letters," 3) it was the McKenna brothers' reading of "The Yagé Letters" that inspired them to go to the Putumayo and La Chorrera in 1971. It seems likely to me that Terence McKenna, at least, did a lot of reading of other stuff by Burroughs, perhaps coming across reference to Maya "apocalypse" there.

          For me, the whole 2012 thing was born out of uncritical, amateurish, counterculture, psychedelic musings based on readings and discussions based on various editions of popular books about the ancient Maya. If that sounds blasé, so be it.
          • Unsu...
            ""1. Can we locate any direct mention of 12/21/2012 before 1985?"

            Yes. It's directly mentioned in Table B.2 (p. 603) of the revised 4th edition of "The Ancient Maya" by Sylvanus Morley, which was published in 1983. "

            LMAO... Try "The Goodman-Martinez-Thompson correlation was chosen by John Eric Sydney Thompson in 1935 on the basis of earlier correlations by Joseph Goodman in 1905 (August 11), Juan Martínez Hernández in 1926 (August 12), and Thompson himself in 1927 (August 13)"

            Yeah, 1905 was the earliest...

            ""2. Where did Arguelles get the year 2012 for The Transformative Vision? And when & how did he come across 12/21/2012 as the end of the Long Count?" "

            Arguelles is an idiot. That is all I have to say about him and his made up version of the calender for his own self aggrandizement.

            "3. When & how did McKenna come across the date?"

            The Timewave Zero theory was developed by Terence McKenna (1946-2000) from the early 1970s to the late 1990s, and was first described by him in the book The Invisible Landscape (1974), written with his brother Dennis. This theory follows from

            "the "revealed" axiom that all phenomena are at root constellated by a wave form which is the hierarchical summation of its constituent parts, morphogenetic patterns related to those in DNA. ... We argue that the theory of the hyperspatial nature of superconductive bonds, and the experiment we devised to test that theory, yielded ... a modular wave-hierarchy theory of the nature of time that we have been able to construe, using a particular mathematical treatment of the I Ching, into a general theory of systems, which illuminates the nature of time and organism and provides an idea model which explains the interconnection of physical and psychological phenomena from the submolecular to the macrocosmic level."

            — Dennis and Terence McKenna, The Invisible Landscape, original (1975) edition, pp. 101-103

            BTW... 5125 x 5 = 25625 = Years for complete precession = the revolution of Pleiades around Alcyone = years between perturbations of the Earth's EMF = Light Years of Sol from Sagittarius A* AKA Galactic Central Point. Which of course ties into the Dark Rift and World Tree Story. 5 B'ak'tun is what it is indicated on Mayan Creation Monuments as 1 World Age... This is the 5th World Age. The Sun "Sol" Aligned with the Galactic Equator near Sag A* in 1998 which only happens every 25,625 years... Back to Precession... Back to the Yugas... 2012 is the beginning of the Satya Yuga... All this is explained in my Satya Yuga 2012 Tribe...
      • Unsu...
        "so the Popol Vuh (the mayan creation myth) wasn't tainted by the Spanish Conquistadors at all, like some may have thought. So fascinating."

        Nope, As I discuss in the thread I did about Mirador... In Mirador there was found a Stella of the Popol Vuh which dates to 200BC... 200 Years before the supposed birth of the composite figure that was Jesus Christ (Nimrod/Horus/Mithras)... Jesus being a Latin ( Roman) bastardization of Yeshua (Aramaic), Christ coming from Christos which mean the Christened one or anointed one which is a reference to being Christened in Oil... Hence Crisco Oil... But that is another story... Back to Topic... The Popol Vuh at Mirador matches exactly the one later found and proves it was NOT tainted.
        • Unsu...
          BTW, I am agreeing with you, the tone could be taken wrongly... I apologize.
          • Unsu...
            "BTW, I am agreeing with you, the tone could be taken wrongly... I apologize. "
            Talking to Lana of course.
            • Unsu...
              No worries.... I understand Manj. We each have our own field of understanding to process.

              ps: I am absolutely in FULL gratitude for Jose Arguelles myself. He is a kind, beautiful soul whom has been very inspirational for me. ;-)

              • Unsu...
                "ps: I am absolutely in FULL gratitude for Jose Arguelles myself. He is a kind, beautiful soul whom has been very inspirational for me. ;-) "

                That's Kewl, I know a few people that have told me that... Then accuse me of Bad-Mouthing him. I am only trying to move the focus on the Living Maya and the Living Mayan Calendar. He admits himself his is not the "Real-Deal" but a creation he made Based on it. I am a Mayan, Day Keeper. I use both the Yucatec and K'iche' Tzolk'in Calendar. I am Lakota and Seminole North American Native however, not a Mayan. Though I have personally met and talked with Mayan Elders and Day Keepers. His matches up fairly well, except his Day-Out of Time has nothing to do with any actual Mayan Celebration/Ceremony or Practice. That is way the Wayeb' is for, a week of celebration. March 21st (Any Era) is the Mayan new year, as confirmed not only by the serpent manifestation of Kukulcan Pyramid, but also by living Maya who have kept the Calendar since 3114BC... I say as with any divination art/astronomy of self discovery, Use what works for you. If it is Playing Cards, one of the Many Decks of Tarot, Mu the Bon/Tibetan method, the I-Ching, throwing Bones, DND Dice, or your own made up one (Which work the best actually, because it is unique to your fields of manifestation and energy, but may not work at all for others...) it does not really matter and all work off the same concept of getting a read-out of the fields of manifestation.

                So in other words I have nothing against him personally. I found it did not work for me. I found out about the Real Mayan Calendar through Aluna Joy in 1998 and became an initiated Mayan Daykeeper in 2000. Ever since I have found it to be extremely Accurate, at least for me and those I have given reading too as well...

                I have a blog in my profile from a few years ago about the people "Dreamspelled into José Time" as I put it. His people, defend him at the drop of a Hat it seems. Though, it was never needed. LOL

                Anyway. Peace and Love.

                Om A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhih, Dhih, Dhih.
                • Unsu...
                  "I am a Mayan, Day Keeper."

                  Doh, Ignore that ","... I am not of Mayan Descent or Blood (That I know of)... Once again Lakota and FL Seminole (Creek).
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    One last thing, well maybe two, about Dream-Spell and José. He claims to be a Re-Incarnation of a Mayan Priest, I claim to be an Incarnation of a Mayan God. Which my Mayan and Aztec Astrology reflect.

                    Also, I would like to quote another great researcher in the field.

                    "This brief document is intended to point the way, clarify facts, restore truth, and support the authentic Maya calendar tradition. The Maya have endured much over the centuries since the conquest, beyond our imagining. They've endured tenfold that suffering in the last sixteen years what with dominator culture institutionalizing genocide, and now their calendar tradition is threatened with being superseded by a new system coming from a realm beyond their control. It is sad that so much of the authentic Mayan tradition must be defended here. The day-gods can't be heard as clearly as they used to. The ancestors' voices are faint. It is harder to feel the lightning in the blood, to read the subtleties in each day's face. The day-keepers feel they must do more ceremonies, yet the fire is dimming. Game players to the north, all lovers of Mayan tradition, should meditate upon a core truth with deep implications: is 4 Ahau, December 21, 2012 AD. When that all important date arrives, and it is not 4 Ahau, how can we synchronize?"

                    -John Major Jenkins
                    • 4 Ahua??? That's not the dreamspell for Or maybe that man was saying something else... Manjo... Since you could be a good researcher... Reverse engineer the dreamspell for the classical mayan calendar and the tzolkin and find 4 Ahua for every day before December 21st, 2012 AD. Please, kind sir...
                      • Unsu...
                        "4 Ahua??? That's not the dreamspell for"

                        No it is not the Dream-Spell for on the B'ak'tun Long Count...

                        "Or maybe that man was saying something else... "

                        Indeed he was, He was referring to the K'iche' Living Mayan Calendar...

                        "Manjo... Since you could be a good researcher..."

                        LOL, Could be?

                        "Reverse engineer the dreamspell for the classical mayan calendar and the tzolkin"

                        Why would I want to do that, that makes no sense at all... If I was going to do that at all, I would just use the Classical/Yucatec....

                        "The Dreamspell is an esoteric calendar based on the Maya calendar as interpreted by New Age spiritualist and author José Argüelles, in 1987. [1]. It is a 13 month 28 day calendar, with an intercalary period.

                        This is loosely based on the 365-day solar calendar called the Haab, but most importantly focused on the 260-day sacred calendar called the Tzolkin, which Arguelles postulates to be based on galactic rotation. Arguelles interprets this calendar as part of what he calls a 'radiogenetic game board' that relates to both the I-Ching and to the 64-unit DNA code."

                        "classical mayan calendar and the tzolkin and find 4 Ahua for every day before December 21st, 2012 AD. Please, kind sir... "

                        But why would I want the "Classical" AKA Yucatec? It is post invasion and not the "Real One"... 4 Ahau = 12/21/12 on the K'iche' Living Mayan Calendar, which is Unbroken since 3114BC... Not the Broken one... (Yucatec/Classical) I am a Daykeeper, I could give it to you in both...

                        However, Since you asked for Classical, you will get it... Starting in 4/13/09, (we will go back a bit to illustrate the timings) then in 12/29/09, The next one is 9/15/10, the one after that is 6/2/11, The next after that is 2/17/12, then the last one before Dec 21st, 2012 AD is 11/4/12... 12/21/12 on the Broken Classical Yucatec calender is Manik 12...

                        n30, now since you Could be a good researcher I will give you the last two K'iche' 4 Ahau(Ajpu) dates and the Next one... it reoccurs every 260 days... Easy enough for yourself to figure out... LOL. The last two 4 Ahau on K'iche' calenders were on 5/31/09, then 2/15/10, the next one will be on 11/2/10, BTW it is called Ajpu in the old tongue... as opposed to the Spanishification of the Maya... AKA Yucatec/Classical...

                        BTW José time is based on the Broken Yucatec one... Not the one in use by Mayan Daykeepers today... And does not match what is Written in Stone...
                        • Unsu...
                          "It is post invasion and not the "Real One"... "

                          I suppose I should Clarify what I mean by this... The Yucatec Calendar is based on the Classic one, which was altered after the Maya moved to a new location. Both were actually in use in Mayan Classical times, those that stuck to the original count and those that followed a newer one, which was recalculated based on their new central location, this was regarded by many to be a mistake. Today, the Living Maya use Pre-Classic for this reason. The Yucatec one was reconstructed from the Classical by Spanish Invaders, hence it being Post-Invasion.
                      • Unsu...
                        BTW, N30, I mean no offense... You Could be a Good Researcher.
                        • Unsu...
                          For more info on Preclassic VS. Classic....

                          The Maya area was initially inhabited around the 10th century BC. Recent discoveries of Maya occupation at Cuello in Belize have been carbon dated to around 2600 BC.[3][4] This level of occupation included monumental structures. The Maya calendar, which is based around the so-called Mesoamerican Long Count calendar, commences on a date equivalent to 11 August, 3114 BC. However, according to "accepted history" the first clearly “Maya” settlements were established in approximately 1800 BC in Soconusco region of the Pacific Coast. This period, known as the Early Preclassic,[5] was characterized by sedentary communities and the introduction of pottery and fired clay figurines.[6]

                          Important sites in the southern Maya lowlands include Nakbe, El Mirador, Cival, and San Bartolo. In the Guatemalan Highlands Kaminal Juyú emerges around 800 BC. For many centuries it controlled the Jade and Obsidian sources for the Petén and Pacific Lowlands. The important early sites of Izapa, Takalik Abaj and Chocolá at around 600 BC were the main producers of Cacao. Mid-sized Maya communities also began to develop in the northern Maya lowlands during the Middle and Late Preclassic, though these lacked the size, scale, and influence of the large centers of the southern lowlands. Two important Preclassic northern sites include Komchen and Dzibilchaltun. The first written inscription in Maya hieroglyphics also dates to this period (c. 250 BC).[7]

                          There is disagreement about the boundaries which differentiate the physical and cultural extent of the early Maya and neighboring Preclassic Mesoamerican civilizations, such as the Olmec culture of the Tabasco lowlands and the Mixe-Zoque– and Zapotec–speaking peoples of Chiapas and southern Oaxaca, respectively. Many of the earliest significant inscriptions and buildings appeared in this overlapping zone, and evidence suggests that these cultures and the formative Maya influenced one another.[8] Takalik Abaj, in the Pacific slopes of Guatemala, is the only site where Olmec and then Maya features have been found.
                          [edit] Classic
                          The ruins of Palenque.

                          The Classic period (c. 250–900 AD) witnessed the peak of large-scale construction and urbanism, the recording of monumental inscriptions, and a period of significant intellectual and artistic development, particularly in the southern lowland regions.[9] They developed an agriculturally intensive, city-centered empire consisting of numerous independent city-states. This includes the well-known cities of Tikal, Palenque, Copán and Calakmul, but also the lesser known Dos Pilas, Uaxactun, Altun Ha, and Bonampak, among others. The Early Classic settlement distribution in the northern Maya lowlands is not as clearly known as the southern zone, but does include a number of population centers, such as Oxkintok, Chunchucmil, and the early occupation of Uxmal.

                          The most notable monuments are the stepped pyramids they built in their religious centers and the accompanying palaces of their rulers. The palace at Cancuen is the largest in the Maya area, though the site, interestingly, lacks pyramids. Other important archaeological remains include the carved stone slabs usually called stelae (the Maya called them tetun, or "tree-stones"), which depict rulers along with hieroglyphic texts describing their genealogy, military victories, and other accomplishments.[10]

                          The Maya civilization participated in long distance trade with many of the other Mesoamerican cultures, including Teotihuacan, the Zapotec and other groups in central and gulf-coast Mexico, as well as with more distant, non-Mesoamerican groups, for example the Tainos in the Caribbean. Archeologists have also found gold from Panama in the Sacred Cenote of Chichen Itza.[11] Important trade goods included cacao, salt, sea shells, jade and obsidian."

    • Unsu...
      pp: "...El Mirador and other sites in this region are exposed to substantial looting, which is getting worse as roads get closer. Guatemala doesn't have the resources to adequately protect it, so international organizations need to get involved. ..."

      >>> Let's get Zawi Hasass over there; he can handle the looters all by himself! ;)

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