http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#bfe23072-910c-442a-9e16-c2beb196e6ab > This means they were would have been working from official historical records themselves most crucial teaching at that time went from mouth to ear, and most likely included a lot more that was actually written. knowledge is power, is the business of many in power to deny proper information to the "mases" they control. > These texts, as you say, would have been written by the hunters rather than the lions In the case of the Bible, seems to me, the Hunters have been posing as Lions for quite a long time. Fri, 04 Jan 2008 01:21:03 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#bfe23072-910c-442a-9e16-c2beb196e6ab Ozai 2008-01-04T01:21:03Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#aeca5c63-23f6-4b90-a179-105c213859cc A small group of American, French and Israeli scholars met on May 3, 2007, in Jerusalem in an attempt to resolve differences over whether the Ivory Pomegranate Inscription is authentic or a forgery. The Jerusalem meeting failed to resolve the differences. But the all-day meeting in the museum’s conference room—where the scholars examined the pomegranate inscription under a stereoscopic microscope—highlighted and defined their differences and vividly revealed the way scholars approach questions like this. http://www.anchorstone.com/content/view/296/105/ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:21:27 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#aeca5c63-23f6-4b90-a179-105c213859cc Ozai 2008-01-03T23:21:27Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#f1465d0c-a068-4dbd-b470-0b69036d2245 There seems to be more historical evidence that could indicate that Ahknatons (and other Pharaohs) were real people than there is of Abraham and Moses. I agree with the point that the myths and the lessons given in these stories are far more important than the historical authenticity. However, there is a lot at stake when it comes to the Bible story been because is still sold as the truth. As everything else (seems to me), historical facts often are "right" or "wrong" depending on who looks at them and what is wanted to be seen. Also, many "historical facts" tend to change with time. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:03:57 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#f1465d0c-a068-4dbd-b470-0b69036d2245 Ozai 2008-01-03T23:03:57Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#d21569ba-b64f-423b-a357-4837988d36ba I suspect that the stories of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad, like those of Odysseus, Beowulf, King Arthur and other semi-legendary figures, all have some basis in historical reality. However, the myths and the lessons they teach are far more important than whether the historical facts are "right" or "wrong". Do you think that the stories of Bilbo and Frodo have a basis in reality? How about the stories of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader? If the LOTR and Star Wars epics are still being discussed 2000 years from now, do you think anyone will know for sure? Won't the moral lessons their stories relate be more important than whether or not they represent historical realities? Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:30:38 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#d21569ba-b64f-423b-a357-4837988d36ba Hoopes 2008-01-03T21:30:38Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#419c2200-aa1c-4b45-a7c2-8446e0f60ddf What a gross oversimplification! Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:21:09 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#419c2200-aa1c-4b45-a7c2-8446e0f60ddf Hoopes 2008-01-03T21:21:09Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#838aba42-6386-40dd-8b81-6f4fd10ca10a Abraham = Ibrahim Solomon = Suleman etc etc All the same bunch, rooted in the same origins, and from the same area! Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:08:02 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#838aba42-6386-40dd-8b81-6f4fd10ca10a Psi 2008-01-03T20:08:02Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#646e296f-c533-4ef8-b8bb-427d9988129a "there is very little in the way of historical evidence" Have you read any of the books I recommended in an earlier post? Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:40:14 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#646e296f-c533-4ef8-b8bb-427d9988129a Hoopes 2008-01-03T18:40:14Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#c1ecbee8-f463-41fa-a579-861e5145c0b4 perhaps I shouldn't say 'Torah is nothing more' . . . although there is very little in the way of historical evidence to support how it came about. Fascinating none the less. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:02:42 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#c1ecbee8-f463-41fa-a579-861e5145c0b4 white wizard 2008-01-03T17:02:42Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#7e1230bc-0a80-4c3c-8a60-a0beaa4e7195 There is little doubt in my mind after researching the subject extensively since my arrival in Israel, that Judaism, and the Five Books of Moses (ie Torah) are actually nothing more than a story that alludes to a deeper wisdom. Anyone who studies Kabbalah will discover that the Torah is a system for living with various interpretations manifest from the Text. The fact that the Jews themselves are split into litterly hundreds of Sects and divisions makes the whole thing decidedly difficult to decipher. The knowledge they possess is indeed powerful, and its obvious beyond question that Judaism is in fact an interpretation of the Ancient Wisdom that permeates all Religion and Spiritual practice throughout the world. As for the details . . . Does it matter? Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:47:10 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#7e1230bc-0a80-4c3c-8a60-a0beaa4e7195 white wizard 2008-01-03T16:47:10Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#e5de9ba0-2372-44aa-bd78-27aed2c4a297 This may well have been so, but it still begs the question of how well the Biblical authors knew the dynastic history of Egypt, since they were probably writing several hundred years after the events they were describing. This means they were would have been working from official historical records themselves. These texts, as you say, would have been written by the hunters rather than the lions. The question of what the Biblical authors knew and when they knew it is an interesting one indeed. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:41:35 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#e5de9ba0-2372-44aa-bd78-27aed2c4a297 Hoopes 2008-01-03T14:41:35Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#99316ce7-e091-4c6c-a2bc-a32fa482301b The Pharaoh who was on the throne when Abraham is alleged to have gone into Egypt (Gen. 12:10-20) was probably one of the Hyksos. They where "plunderers," their king or chief seems to have been Hyk, and hence the name of those invaders who conquered the Native African Kings and established land, with Zoan or Tanis as their capital. They were of Semitic origin, and of kindred blood with Abraham. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:48:01 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#99316ce7-e091-4c6c-a2bc-a32fa482301b Ozai 2008-01-03T08:48:01Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#9b943f8b-de31-4b6b-a6b2-3db6c4779621 > . Neither Necho I nor Necho II would have been a contemporary of Abraham, according to traditional chronologies. im not sure about what the author meant there .. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 08:21:12 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#9b943f8b-de31-4b6b-a6b2-3db6c4779621 Ozai 2008-01-03T08:21:12Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#6840314f-5080-4914-8612-d2ee4444c77a > In a word: No Do you think he existed ? If not the story must be about someone else, who could that be then ? Could it be that Moses was just a code name for a core of secret knowledge that a selected few shared. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 07:25:50 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#6840314f-5080-4914-8612-d2ee4444c77a Ozai 2008-01-03T07:25:50Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#b4e96bfd-7792-4327-ac7e-666c585fa021 For the benefit of the masses ? I reason it depends on the perspective of the ones that writes and the ones that publish. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 07:00:49 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#b4e96bfd-7792-4327-ac7e-666c585fa021 Ozai 2008-01-03T07:00:49Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#d2fddbf8-baee-4570-8dc0-fd84cb14df1f "for the benefit of a selected few" ... or for the benefit of the masses. (Depends on your perspective.) Thu, 03 Jan 2008 06:49:24 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#d2fddbf8-baee-4570-8dc0-fd84cb14df1f Hoopes 2008-01-03T06:49:24Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#32325445-f825-4c33-96fe-9861e83e4f36 In a word: No. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 06:47:29 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#32325445-f825-4c33-96fe-9861e83e4f36 Hoopes 2008-01-03T06:47:29Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#52443b0b-cb41-4d19-896b-4c47d5d02de5 > Analyzing the veracity of historical accounts is a very complicated business. agreed, especially when so much of it has been intentionally hidden/denied/altered for the benefit of a selected few. “Until the Lions get their own historian, tales of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.” -- African Proverb Thu, 03 Jan 2008 06:06:03 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#52443b0b-cb41-4d19-896b-4c47d5d02de5 Ozai 2008-01-03T06:06:03Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#6fbff7b3-4276-4e2d-b47a-238af67cf476 It's worth considering when the Bible was written before addressing the issue of whether or not it accurately describes historical events. You should also give some consideration to the "Biblical minimalist" position of the Copenhagen School of Biblical Studies, which has gotten substantial support from recent archaeological research that is not of the "Biblical Archaeology" variety. There are some relatively good summaries of the issues in the Wikipedia, though I recommend going to the cited sources for the most detailed analyses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Minimalists The oldest known materially preserved fragment of a Torah portion dates no earlier than 600 BCE, while the Dead Sea scrolls date between the 3rd and 1st centuries BCE. I'm puzzled by your reference to Necho. Neither Necho I nor Necho II would have been a contemporary of Abraham, according to traditional chronologies. In fact, it was Necho who invaded Judah in the 6th century BCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necho_II Josephus didn't write his Antiquities of the Jews until about 94 CE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus If we can't expect modern historians, with all of the data at their disposal, to write accurate accounts of what happened even a century or two ago, isn't it a bit absurd to expect that ancient historians wrote accurate accounts of what happened four hundred to a thousand years earlier than their own times? Many people are skeptical that we've got the story on 9/11 right, and that was less than seven years ago! Same goes for JFK and O.J. Analyzing the veracity of historical accounts is a very complicated business. Think of history as being similar to a court trial. Archaeology adds the material evidence to the accounts of witnesses and the theories of history's defenders and prosecutors. You're a member of the jury. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 05:53:46 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#6fbff7b3-4276-4e2d-b47a-238af67cf476 Hoopes 2008-01-03T05:53:46Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#861427aa-edb2-4dc8-a7af-43ceb05783a5 > However, none of the archaeological sources I've read suggests that Abraham was a pharaoh. Im curious, can you offer Scientific proof that Moses existed ? Thu, 03 Jan 2008 05:50:27 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#861427aa-edb2-4dc8-a7af-43ceb05783a5 Ozai 2008-01-03T05:50:27Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#4148fdb9-d457-4e33-b2e0-e1d6dfb8ec4e Just like the case of "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross". If the truth would be know, the people that run system of oppression we live would be in big trouble. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Marco_Allegro Thu, 03 Jan 2008 05:43:03 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#4148fdb9-d457-4e33-b2e0-e1d6dfb8ec4e Ozai 2008-01-03T05:43:03Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#071bb25c-9915-43f6-9001-14ae09d387ef > However, none of the archaeological sources I've read suggests that Abraham was a pharaoh and you wont any time soon, because if it happened people would awaken and revel against the ring of power Thu, 03 Jan 2008 05:37:41 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#071bb25c-9915-43f6-9001-14ae09d387ef Ozai 2008-01-03T05:37:41Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#4214a23f-9718-448e-b2dc-84239816db57 Of course, there are some interpretations grounded in archaeology. Two good references to consider: Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard E. Freidman http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-Bible-Richard-Friedman/dp/0060630353/ What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It?: What Archaeology Can Tell Us About the Reality of Ancient Israel, by William G. Dever http://www.amazon.com/What-Biblical-Writers-Know-When/dp/080282126X/ The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts, by Neil Asher Silberman and Israel Finkelstein http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136/ Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From? by William G. Dever http://www.amazon.com/Were-Early-Israelites-Where-They/dp/0802844162/ I'd strongly recommend reading at least a couple of these books if you have a serious interest in current scholarship on this subject. There is a growing body of evidence that has been amassed and vetted by leading scholars to suggest that the Exodus never occurred the way it is described in the Bible. Various sources of information, from archaeology and ancient history, suggest that much of this work was composed and redacted as late as the 7th century BCE, specifically during the reign of Josiah, a young reformer and extirpator of idolatry who was heavily influenced by the priesthood before he met an untimely death at the hands of an Egyptian enemy. The relatively late date of a composition that describes events that would have occurred 500 to 1000 years earlier may explain why the names of Egyptian captors, especially prominent pharaohs, are absent from the text. Other parts (including the Flood story in Genesis) may have been added *after* the Babylonian exile that began with the destruction of the First Temple in 586 BCE, a period when Jewish scholars would have had access to older Sumerian histories, including the Epic of Gilgamesh and other Bronze Age legends. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity However, none of the archaeological sources I've read suggests that Abraham was a pharaoh. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 05:24:49 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#4214a23f-9718-448e-b2dc-84239816db57 Hoopes 2008-01-03T05:24:49Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#87e9c3f1-02c4-497f-9baa-64529bf841d8 he Hyksos were basically a Semitic people who were able to wrestle control (they killed a lot of people) of Egypt from the early Second Intermediate rulers of the 13th Dynasty, inaugurating the 15th Dynasty. Their names mostly come from the West Semitic languages. Their power came with the skilled use wheel and the chariot. The attitude of descendants of the Hyksos has not changed much since. In the last verses of Genesis it is told how Joseph adjured his relatives to take his bones back to Canaan whenever God should restore them to their original home, and in Joshua 24:32 it is told how his body was indeed brought to Palestine and buried in Shechem. For centuries there was a tomb at Shechem reverenced as the Tomb of Joseph. When the tomb was opened, it was found to contain a body mummified according to the Egyptian custom, and in the tomb, among other things, was a sword of the kind worn by Egyptian officials The Jewish ethnonym in Hebrew is יהודים Yehudim (plural of יהודי Yehudi) is understood to be the ultimate origin of the English word Jew. The Hebrew name is derived from the region name Judah (Yehudah יהודה). Originally the name referred to the territory alloted to the tribe traditionally descended from Judah the fourth son of the patriarch Jacob. The Genesis 29:35 [1] relates that Judah's mother — the matriarch Leah — named him Yehudah (i.e. "Judah") because she wanted to "praise God" for giving birth to so many sons: "She said, 'This time let me praise (odeh אודה) God (יהוה),' and named the child Judah (Yehudah יהודה)." Thus combining "praise" and "God" into one new name. These days however (to the best of my understanding), no one seem to know for sure what a Jew is. I mean, Jews themselves dont have an unanimous agreement of whom is a "Jew" and who is not. The law has his own views, and Zionist theirs. Thu, 03 Jan 2008 05:12:38 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#87e9c3f1-02c4-497f-9baa-64529bf841d8 Ozai 2008-01-03T05:12:38Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#5cbf6920-f439-4fcd-979f-7f1fdd4d2d54 Leaving out all references and details, this is inherent to revisionist historians who claim that Moses was as well Ahkenaten and the whole idea of wandering Jews or enslaved Jews is a coverup for the fact that Judaism is rooted in paganism. One Biblical scholar noted that nowhere do the Jews mention the names of their captors who allegedly held them for 400 years. Curious that! Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:26:17 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#5cbf6920-f439-4fcd-979f-7f1fdd4d2d54 $item.owner.firstName 2008-01-03T04:26:17Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#2fa6a7c9-bc0b-491a-a311-5c16b5639ae1 Some scholars, as early as Josephus, have associated the Semitic Hyksos with the ancient Hebrews, seeing their departure from Egypt as the story retold in the Exodus. Notably, Canaanite/Hebrew names occur among the Hyksos. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyksos ) Tue, 01 Jan 2008 04:35:05 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#2fa6a7c9-bc0b-491a-a311-5c16b5639ae1 $item.owner.firstName 2008-01-01T04:35:05Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#fb6728fe-1d63-4bd5-9352-40de33538f83 If I indicated that biblical Abraham was a pharaoh of Egypt, would it appear to be an utterly absurd figment of a deranged mind? Initially that may seem so, but this is only because we have grown so used to the orthodox ecclesiastical creed that we have forgotten that the Biblical Abraham was in fact a very powerful man. Josephus, the first century Jewish historian says of Abraham: Pharaoh Necho, king of Egypt at the time, descended on this land with an immense army and seized Sarah the Princess, mother of our nation. And what did our forefather Abraham do? Did he avenge the insult by force of arms? Yet he had three hundred and eighteen officers under him, with unlimited manpower at his disposal! http://www.world-mysteries.com/gw_rellis10.htm (Thanks 4 da link, 39 : ) Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:29:48 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/2be629ea-710f-4f22-9b0b-440f04bf44d2#fb6728fe-1d63-4bd5-9352-40de33538f83 Ozai 2007-12-31T20:29:48Z