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Disclosure ~ finally

topic posted Tue, September 21, 2010 - 2:15 PM by  Celestine
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www.reuters.com/article/id...PRN20100915

Looks like the mass of substantial testimony and evidence is making it into the main stream media. I look forward to the day when the president finally addresses the nation and tells everyone that there is some truth to the existence of UFOs and Aliens.
posted by:
Celestine
Pennsylvania
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  • And yet once again any physical proof of such 'anomalies' rests solely with the hearsay testimony of seven individuals.

    Just once I'd love to see some physical/tangible evidence for such claims that would point - with a high level of certainty - to the existence of these phenomena.
  • I think you'll be waiting a long, long time for the "and Aliens" part.

    UFOs means just what it stands for--especially the "unidentified" bit. Of course, the definition of UFOs should probably be expanded to include the *perceptions* of phenomena that are interpreted *as if* they were flying objects but are not actually flying objects at all.

    I'm with TMP on this. Witness testimony of any kind will never be conclusive. People claim to have seen all kinds of weird things all the time for a wide variety of reasons. Would we also believe personnel who had claimed to see ghosts? I can think of a variety of explanations for why military personnel would be either mistaken about what they saw, making up false testimony, or have false memories.

    False memory syndrome
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fals...y_syndrome

    Persuasive evidence of ETs must be physical, material objects, not psychological phenomena.

    I think Carl Sagan once came up with a list of the potential material evidence that, if found, would conclusively demonstrate that we were dealing with some kind of higher intelligence. I'll try to see if I can find it someplace. (If someone else knows it, post it.)
    • "You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe” -- Carl Sagan
      • I personally saw evidence of the UFO phenomenon so for me its not a belief, its a memory. I obviously can't share the experience with you through words. I can say however after having the experience that I would be more likely to believe the testimony of these individuals. From my own research it is worth it to be very skeptical about information in this field. There are many opportunists in the world willing to take advantage of others beliefs for example the entire money system or anyone trying to make money off the phenomenon like Authors. There are several times when people mistake Venus or Mars or even Jupiter as a UFO. We can have a healthy skepticism about these kinds of issues but at the same time being dismissive of every case could be just as counter intuitive as believing in it entirely. I'm all for having evidence with the testimony of these individuals.
        • I had a period when I was hooked on Stephen Baxter books, because his theories are actually not so far fetched, yet perfectly fitted into the sci-fi world he created.

          In the Manifold series, I was quite receptive to the idea that the first contact is actually going occur between "our machines" and "their machines". Considering the relentless onslaught of technology, I can foresee that in the next few decades we will create probes that could explore deeper space than so far imagined.

          As far as the contact on our planet goes, I feel it may be extra-dimensional (or inter-dimensional) rather than extraterrestrial. The only evidence acceptable for me has to be empirical; testimonies, youtube videos or msm reports are not gonna cross my threshold.

          Hey, I'm starting to sound like a skeptic!
        • The number of times I have heard skeptics claim that experiencers have possibly mistaken Mars, Venus or the moon as a UFO is numerous, but I would also like to say that people who make these suggestions usually are feeling too superior to be listening to the people they are with.
          And quite honestly, have YOU ever mistaken something that has been in the sky since the first day you looked up and mistaken it for an object that was moving across the sky?
          When it comes down to it, I couldn't give a rats if the latest US President came out and said he'd seen a UFO, after all Jimmy Carter did and look where that got him!
          There is nothing better for your belief system that an actual experience that cannot be mistaken for anything else. The skeptics will always find some excuse to condemn anyone who defies their belief system and their God, even if that God is the science of the day.
  • >>Looks like the mass of substantial testimony and evidence is making it into the main stream media. I look forward to the day when the president finally addresses the nation and tells everyone that there is some truth to the existence of UFOs and Aliens. <<

    It may as well happen in our lifetime. I remember watching a documentary where Roger Penrose and Steven Hawking both thought that ET contact is likely in the next century. So, if we keep with the raw vegan diet and some other perks we may live to see the day when a big flying saucer will blow the White House in pieces.:)

    If we are looking at an extradimensional contact, that could explain why some people can be/will be more receptive to see these things than others. BTW, anyone who had a proper ayahuasca or DMT trip knows that we are not alone...

    "We come in peace! We come in peace!"

    www.youtube.com/watch
    • Roger Penrose is an interesting character and for being an Oxford mathematician he is definitely open minded...

      I really like this quote from the wp:

      "Penrose has written controversial books on the connection between fundamental physics and human (or animal) consciousness. In The Emperor's New Mind (1989), he argues that known laws of physics are inadequate to explain the phenomenon of consciousness. Penrose proposes the characteristics this new physics may have and specifies the requirements for a bridge between classical and quantum mechanics (what he calls correct quantum gravity). He claims that the present computer is unable to have intelligence because it is an algorithmically deterministic system. He argues against the viewpoint that the rational processes of the mind are completely algorithmic and can thus be duplicated by a sufficiently complex computer. This contrasts with supporters of strong artificial intelligence, who contend that thought can be simulated algorithmically. "

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose
      • Auton, I have similar hunches about the contact being extra dimensional in nature. The book Flatland
        did a great job of opening me up to some new possibilities.

        Also, my brain logically accepts the new physics, and the results of the photonic studies, wave/particle
        anomalies etc etc. , But I am aware that I have not yet completely grokked the info.

        I just don't think my limited 3d processor can crunch that much next level info. I've got a back log of
        new reality programs to install. It's kinda like trying to render video with an Atari.

        I've been following this story. the fact that reuters is picking it up is interesting.
  • Unsu...
     
    • I can believe there is a black budget program funding anti gravity research and vehicles but I wouldn't say it is the full explanation for all UFO sightings. My guess is that it is a cooperative effort between humans and ET where some craft are ours and some craft are theirs. I would guess that the craft that are designed with aerodynamics in mind are probably more likely to be ours where as an ET craft may not be aerodynamic at all or look entirely abstract. The craft I saw when I was young was not aerodynamic at all in shape, it resembled a soup can. A disk shape or triangle shape would be closer to something I would expect from a human engineer. If you could travel in any direction at any moment then from an engineering perspective with functionality in our atmosphere in mind you would want a 360 degree aerodynamic shape and something that could also possibly fly like a normal plane if it had to. Wouldn't want to put all your eggs in one basket when your designing a craft for the rulers of the world.
      • Unsu...
         
        Indeed. Some are ours, some are theirs. Some are not craft at all but living beings. There is a lot more to the story than meets the eye.
  • Yep.. but I dont need others 'evidence' to believe in anything,
    I know how it feels to know and wondering what it takes to get others to know...
    or - to believe...

    Abscence of evidence is not evidence of absence. (Sgt. Clifford Stone, During Disclosure Project Press Conf 2001)

    Some of the ships move so fast it takes a Supergirl to get it on a camera ; )
    it wasnt until it lifted over the barn I realized it was not a tractor...
    and as it reached slowly above it it glided over the trees
    as it had a distance to the trees it just went into some sort of superdrive
    swosh............ and it was as one with the stars..

    I didnt have a camera close by that night...

    what concerns me more is that the other 2 persons in the car with me
    doesnt remember more then the extremely bright light and us stopping the car..
    • Unsu...
       
      >2 persons in the car with me
      doesnt remember more then the extremely bright light and us stopping the car.. <

      I know of repeated instances where not everyone will see the ufo. Even when 4 people pointed to the ufo
      there was 1 person who did not see it ( for the better part of 10 minutes)
      I have seen first hand also, others not see what I and we saw.
      I have attributed this to some people have no desire to see, so they dont,
      and some are open to seeing, so they do.
      • I see UFOs all the time. Who can identify everything you see flying around?

        The ones I see most often are those little specks that appear in a shaft of sunlight. What the heck *are* all those little things?
        • Unsu...
           
          specks in sunlight? Do you mean in the house? that is called dust. ;)
          • Unsu...
             
            When a person see's a row of Big Bright white lights over a large airport, in the middle of the day, and not on a normal flight path and also real low to the ground, then watches it for 3 minutes thinking it is going to crash, but instead, in the count of two seconds, it is in the horizon, that could be called fishy.
          • "that is called dust"

            Well, sure. But that's just a general, catch-all term. Most of those specks are *unidentified* flying objects. They could be cat dander, flakes of dead skin, tiny crumbs of food, bits of wood, fibers from fabric... all kinds of things. Maybe some of them are even teeny tiny ETs in hyperdimensional spacecraft. Who knows? I've got scads of UFOs in my house. Especially in the basement...
  • Unsu...
     
    Well, that would be nice... However, the President doesn't have that kind of clearance. The last two presidents to ask for the information were denied. Carter and Clinton. There are 42 levels above the President. He does not run the country, nor does he have access to that kind of stuff.
    • Ah, the conspiracy card.

      Because when you get to the top you find out that there really is no top but rather, a bottom. Perfect circular reasoning and one impervious to pinning down the bullshit. Just like diarrhea slipping through your fingers.
      • Is anyone else curious to find out if there are people in this tribe who routinely shit in their cupped hands when they have diarrhea ?
        • As a metaphor one can argue that it *is* analogous to reading some of the shit that gets thrown out here as as truthful and absolute.
          • !Lo
            !Lo
            offline 8
            Once upon a time...all were 'expected' to be-LIE-ve ...truthfully and absolutely....that the planet was flat.

            We are all standing at a crossroads here and now.

            To each his / her own.


        • A reflection that one might ponder by ones self or perhaps in a separate thread.
          • "BTW, anyone who had a proper ayahuasca or DMT trip knows that we are not alone... "

            Aho !
            • "BTW, anyone who had a proper ayahuasca or DMT trip knows that we are not alone... "

              Sounds a lot like indoctrination.

              As in: "anyone who had a proper born again experience knows that Jesus is Lord... "

              Are DMT and ayahuasca "gateway drugs" to UFO religions?
              • >>Sounds a lot like indoctrination.

                As in: "anyone who had a proper born again experience knows that Jesus is Lord... "

                Are DMT and ayahuasca "gateway drugs" to UFO religions? <<


                You obviously didn't have a proper DMT or aya trip, Hoopes. This is called in reproductive medicine "shooting blanks".
                I think that DMT and aya are gateway drugs OUT of materialism, debunkism and scientism. If you don't believe me, you should try it...;)
                • "If you don't believe me, you should try it...;)"

                  DMT + horse shit = disaster

                  I've seen it already in spades. I know a 25-year-old on the road back from mooping the playa (picking up shit) at Burning Man who's basically homeless after having been kicked out of the homes of his mother, father, and two different sisters. He's already done more spice than anyone short of the late Terence McKenna, dealing it with liberal consumption of his own supply. He's at an Infected Mushroom concert where I live this evening, trying to reconcile with a girlfriend he left night before last at a rest stop on I-70 in western Kansas with nothing but the clothes on her back, a cell phone, and a lighter. (He took her car and all her stuff and just left, partly because she met a new friend on the road but still had to beg for gas money.) She had to go to the emergency room yesterday morning with a bad mouth infection (sound like a meth addict?) but he still wouldn't go back and pick her up, having better things to do in Lawrence, Kansas. She's a single mom with a 9-year-old daughter who she lost custody of and hasn't seen in three years. High and fighting, they make a fine couple, having been to another dimension and all. Predator and prey, 1500 miles from nowhere, and that's only the past two days (the most recent bit of a five-week road trip from Baltimore to Nevada and back with empty pockets). No jobs, no homes, no money, no food, but they do love to party and then sleep in the car. Real stories. More like them happen every day. But hey, at least they get to see Infected Mushroom.

                  I'm disgusted with the high-end Pinchbeck-style ayahuasca horse shit as well as the lowlife crap I get to witness up close and personal. It's as revolting yet darkly fascinating as an early John Waters film or a painting by Joe Coleman, but no one can persuade me it resembles a "superior experience" in any way, shape, or form. It can be "maya" or illusion if you like. Romanticize it all you want. However, pathetic is what it mostly looks like to me, and I've seen plenty. Call me biased.

                  If these sordid tales of desperate living are evidence of DMT "enlightenment," then thanks but no thanks, Auton. You can have 'em.

                  Stupid hippies and vapid hipsters. We sure need more of those!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    >>If these sordid tales of desperate living are evidence of DMT "enlightenment," then thanks but no thanks, Auton. You can have 'em.<<

                    I forgot that you are the beer + cigar kinda guy, who likes to read the New York Times. :)

                    Now, how did "enlightenment" came into the picture? All I said that DMT can take you out in the bardo or deep into the astral, but that has nothing to do with enlightenment. Encountering half-incarnated or non-incarnated beings may or may not be beneficial, but nonetheless an experience that will shatter the flatland worldviews.

                    You sound traumatized by hearing a ruined life of a 20-some years old tangled up in chemicals. I listen to these stories every day, I can assure you that more people are hooked on coke, crystal meth and booze- and I actually never met a person addicted to DMT.

                    Just about anything can turn into a poison in the hands of a charlatan. Experimenting or conducting a healing ritual with psychedelics in the right settings with the right person is very different than getting high for a stupid Infected Mushroom concert.

                    But, I think you are just simply scared. You would shit your pants if you would have to leave your body and immerse into a parallel dimension crowded with non-materializing, half-incarnated beings.
                    • "But, I think you are just simply scared. You would shit your pants if you would have to leave your body and immerse into a parallel dimension crowded with non-materializing, half-incarnated beings. "

                      I always wondered what kind of sound advice you'd get if you mixed Jungian analysis with a practitioner with Down Syndrome.
                    • "You sound traumatized by hearing a ruined life of a 20-some years old tangled up in chemicals."

                      Not just hearing, Auton. People with these kinds of issues have been in my family for almost 30 years. It will probably be more like witnessing a pitiful waste of life from cradle to grave.

                      I'm not referring to DMT addiction. It's more like a profound confusion resulting from a "mystical" experience along the lines of a personal encounter with Jesus. Smoking DMT and being "born again" seem to produce the same kinds of grins and glassy eyes. It's those scare me, and I know both varieties quite intimately, unfortunately.
                    • "I forgot that you are the beer + cigar kinda guy, who likes to read the New York Times. :)"

                      Scotch, please. And the book reviews first, if I may.
                      • !Lo
                        !Lo
                        offline 8
                        again....I will ask

                        why does wanna be pussy have to be so rude...always w/ a derogatory comment and innuendos

                        >>>>> to Auton =
                        I always wondered what kind of sound advice you'd get if you mixed Jungian analysis with a practitioner with Down Syndrome.

                        and get away with it consistently

                        why was my previous post erased?

                        and by whom?

                        oh yeah

                        I forget where I'm at over here

                        the land of oz at Y2012

                        who is that behind the curtain?
                        • >>why does wanna be pussy have to be so rude...always w/ a derogatory comment and innuendos <<

                          I guess, this is how far her intelligence stretches; after running out from any sensible responses, all there's left is bitching, insults and smart ass venom spitting.

                          Menopause must be a bitch. Severe identity disorder doesn't make it easier either.
                          • "I guess, this is how far her intelligence stretches; after running out from any sensible responses, all there's left is bitching, insults and smart ass venom spitting."

                            Or maybe the crap posted here really does deserve to get slammed every once in a while. Coming from a pussy makes it even better.
                          • "I guess, this is how far her intelligence stretches; after running out from any sensible responses, all there's left is bitching, insults and smart ass venom spitting. Menopause must be a bitch. Severe identity disorder doesn't make it easier either."

                            Truly said! And i hope that you and others know here, I value and always welcome your informative and cutting-edge posts, Auton. But I also love the most frequently spot-on jibes and puffery-busting that TMP usually does so intelligently, humorously and smartly here. I know that there are some who do like like his (yes, as I learned "she" is a he), and I posit that mainly because he's so sharp and they are so dim. I certainly do not always agree with TMP but he's a good balance here, as you and Hoopes and others are against the ( to update H.L. Mencken) too many common clods here:

                            "Complacent, lazy & stupid US citizens who vote for politicians based upon information proffered by government shills in the mainstream media, or for other vacuous reasons. These dolts not only don't understand the concept of "limited government", but have never read The Constitution nor The Bill of Rights. They also believe their vote counts and that politicians are honest."

                            It still amazes me me how these types here complain about others--notably Hoopes who stays the course (whom I also do not always agree with) that they eventually flake out on the points he's making--abusing people like him and others by name-calling and such, and yet they typically are the obvious biggest abusers in that department! Finally, I say please bring back orpheus to somewhat level the playing field here!
                            • Jeez, Will, you need to eat some nuts with all that wine.:) Craving Orpheus back? He's the one who turned this place into a hellhole at the first place. He turned the Uncensored 2012 into a shithole too. Thanks, but no thanks.

                              I can take a healthy amount of cynicism, irony or sarcasm- these are part of our communication, but clear attacks and insults are not leading anywhere.

                              Muffinpussy's comment is insulting to all those people suffer from Down syndrome. First of all, it is congenital- they can't help it, they were born like that. Also, they are the most lovable and innocent people I ever met - they may get agitated and difficult, but most of their souls are untouched by the human filth.

                              Adding to this, I'm not a Jungian analyst. Perhaps a Guenonian or Evolian. Mmmm, more like Evolian. :)
            • "BTW, anyone who had a proper ayahuasca or DMT trip knows that we are not alone... "

              This is what I hear. My experience was with Acid, Mescaline, Mushrooms and a few other things that sent me into alternate states. My experience was of multi-dimensional encounters where I seemed to be shifting timelines/aspects of myself and surfing vortexes upwards into a super-conscious state.

              Jacques Vallee addresses this and I tend to concur with him and include my own very well known and documented UFO experience within his paradigm.

              en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacq...all%C3%A9e

              en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Lights
              • Steven, old man, you're what's known as a "case in point".
                • "Steven, old man, you're what's known as a "case in point"."

                  a case or a case in point? To what point are you referring?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Case in point, my friend.

                    The point (slightly restated) about psychedelics as a factor in favorably predisposing many people to credulity and beliefs about UFOs & ETs.

                    It's not always the case. The late Terence McKenna used a lot of DMT yet still maintained a healthy skepticism about extraterrestrial contact to the end.
                    • "The point (slightly restated) about psychedelics as a factor in favorably predisposing many people to credulity and beliefs about UFOs & ETs."

                      Well I'm sure there's a high correlation among witnesses and psychonauts. After all, when being receptive to alternate reality phenomena it helps to have a frame of reference for alternate reality.

                      The inverse is true as in the case of the natives who had no frame of reference for ships sailing in to conquer them as they just stared in puzzlement (at least that's the story that's told).
                      • "The inverse is true as in the case of the natives who had no frame of reference for ships sailing in to conquer them as they just stared in puzzlement (at least that's the story that's told)."

                        I sure wish I knew the source of that story. At least it's better than the ones claiming the ships weren't even seen.

                        According to Columbus, his ships were actively attacked in various places. Those natives weren't just standing around dumbfounded!

                        I suspect the puzzlement was real. It's a natural and expected reaction. I'm sure that if ET spacecraft ever appear, they will be genuinely puzzling. Even more so when they start attacking us!
                      • "Well I'm sure there's a high correlation among witnesses and psychonauts. After all, when being receptive to alternate reality phenomena it helps to have a frame of reference for alternate reality."

                        I don't have a problem with witnesses who are receptive to *alternate* reality.

                        I'm just skeptical of those who claim ETs are part of *objective* reality!
                        • "I'm just skeptical of those who claim ETs are part of *objective* reality!"

                          As am I. I never claimed I knew what the Lights/Orbs were in 1997. All I did was document the story and then my reaction 10 years later from the perspective of how it related to myth and prophesy. If anything, I view the Lights as ultimate Muse.

                          dictionary.reference.com/browse/muse

                          In terms of disclosure, I'd be happy if it just came out that cover stories have routinely been used as ways to say the military simply does not know what they saw or can explain what they or others saw. My own experience was such that the 4th days of sightings, which was the one most witnessed on a mass basis, and totally consistent with what I saw and documented each of the 4 nights prior, was debunked as flares. Yet my sightings from nights previous were never addressed and were never accounted for in any of the government official explanations.

                          How about disclosing that? The likelihood of my Lights from previous nights being flares, is even less likely then the story brought forward that a visiting National Guard unit from Maryland was present that evening and had somehow not been documented or discussed until several months after the event.

                          None of this of course means squat in terms of saying these things were ETs but it does expose a pattern of behavior that should prove very difficult to sustain in the days of instant Internet pics and films.

                          What they aren't is more important to me than what they are. They aren't just flares, weather balloons, airplanes, or whatever else has been used to dismiss phenomena that defies objective explanation.

                          Where were the debunkers for this one? Seems the 13th of the month is contagious for UFO sightings (Phoenix Lights - March 13, 1997)

                          en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_...%C3%A1tima
                          • "The likelihood of my Lights from previous nights being flares, is even less likely then the story brought forward that a visiting National Guard unit from Maryland was present that evening and had somehow not been documented or discussed until several months after the event."

                            I'm not so sure about that. The military keeps lots of secrets, sometimes for weird reasons. Maybe they were *all* flares, but somebody screwed up, dropped them at an unauthorized place and time, and doesn't want to admit a mistake. Dodging personal respinsibility can make a lot of things look very strange. I suspect it's a big component of 9/11. People messing up and not wanting anyone to know.
                            • "Maybe they were *all* flares, but somebody screwed up, dropped them at an unauthorized place and time, and doesn't want to admit a mistake. "

                              Flares don't hover for 10 minutes without moving at all. Plus they were claimed to be illumination flares. Nothing was illuminated. There was no smoke. I had a powerful zoom camera I was looking through. But let's agree to disagree. There is still tremendous interest in the event. I got a call yesterday alerting me to another documentary or show being developed where they may ask for my participation and/or film.

                              Here's the first one I was in on the Discovery Channel.

                              www.youtube.com/watch
            • What horse shit.

              One man's ayahuasca is another man's burning bush.

              Once the trip is over neither vision is any more tangible than last night's dream.
              • "Once the trip is over neither vision is any more tangible than last night's dream."

                Not for me and many. Jung and others taught me how to go to Night School and learn from them....
                • First of all, Hoopes you're doing it again. Please use that incredible intelligence of yours to learn
                  how to communicate without offending. Much more will get done in here, and we can go about the
                  business of using all this brainpower for something worthwhile.

                  I do feel you on watching people mire into drugs though.
                  I spent a few years as the Rec therapist at a dual diagnosis rehab for high risk teens. Know how
                  many of them were hooked on Aya? None. Most had never even heard of it. Here's why.

                  It's an excruciating experience. Especially if like me, you have a lot of bullshit blocking your
                  mind. The medicine will just shake you around until you give it up. It's not a party drug, it's
                  not an escape. It's actually exactly the opposite. You will have to deal with your shit for 8 to
                  ten hours. Which is hard, but very valuable. It's the equivalent of three years of therapy in a
                  night.

                  Aya, and Ibogaine have both been used quite successfully to end addictions and the PTSD
                  that caused the need for self medication in the first place. Aya is also used by some
                  practioners 4-5 times a week, for months straight. (Santo daime church), with no
                  measurable ill effects. There is some preliminary data that suggests serotonin
                  receptors are actually increased by usage.

                  First hand, yeah it's incredible. I got to meet God. It was profound. Almost more than i could handle.
                  But that memory stays with me, and comforts me. So even if it was a self induced psychosomatic
                  episode, it was beneficial. The same way the placebo effect is beneficial. I also let
                  go of a massive amount of baggage.

                  Please do not lump all drugs in the same places. Meth, Coke Heroin, Oxycontin, these are all
                  incredibly awful substances. Choosing to partake of these overly addicitve escapes
                  is slowicide. As dumb as russian roulette. "Drugs" encompasses a big field. Some of them are
                  poison, some of them are medicine. Currently, one can not trust the FDA to parse them out.

                  Hoopes, if it ever crosses your path, I think you would find it profound. As a scholar I think it might
                  an interest inquiry for you to ponder how jungle savages figured out how combine the psychoactive
                  ingredients with an mao inhibitor in 10 hour reduction process, in order to produce the
                  drink?

                  I can see where if you accidentally lick the right toad you get high. But how did these savages
                  figure out the chemistry for Aya?

                  Strongly recommend to any and all willing to face all sides of themselves. It's not fun,
                  but it's healthy.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    "Hoopes, if it ever crosses your path, I think you would find it profound. As a scholar I think it might an interest inquiry for you to ponder how jungle savages figured out how combine the psychoactive ingredients with an mao inhibitor in 10 hour reduction process, in order to produce the drink?

                    I can see where if you accidentally lick the right toad you get high. But how did these savages figure out the chemistry for Aya?"

                    I think your complaint about not offending would be far more credible if you didn't then proceed use the phrases like "jungle savages" and "these savages". Do you have any idea how incredibly insensitive and offensive that is? It sounds as bad as the n-word to me. Even worse coming from someone who thinks of himself as intelligent and well-informed.

                    As a matter of fact, the origins of ayahuasca have been an area of scholarly inquiry for me. The most recent book I read on the topic--which I highly recommend--is Steve Beyer's excellent "Singing to the Plants: A Guide to Mestizo Shamanism in the Upper Amazon" (now available in paperback):

                    www.singingtotheplants.com

                    www.amazon.com/Singing-Pl...0826347304/

                    Beyer's explanation is that the constituents of ayahuasca, as well as the variations of the brew itself, originated as powerful purgatives, vermicides, antiparasitics, and emetics that were originally used to treat digestive ailments. Their psychoactive properties--especially in certain combinations--were discovered as an interesting side effect to something that was first intended to cause vomiting and diarrhea.

                    BTW, I have not been referring to any kind of DMT or ayahuasca addiction, which I don't think exists. I've been referring to the dissociative, disorienting, and delusional aftereffects of the use of these substances. They seem to make people just as susceptible to accepting "profound" truths as other kinds of "ecstatic" mystical/religious experiences, including things like Pentecostalism, Voudoun, and Spiritualism. I don't buy DMT- or ayahuasca-realized "truths" any more than I would buy the "truths" in the local Pentecostal or charismatic evangelical Christian church.

                    If you got to meet God, great. The late Oral Roberts also had extraordinary visions:

                    Oral Roberts tells of talking to 900-foot Jesus
                    www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx
                    • My bad, should have quotes around savages. I'm pretty sure those indigenous tribes are about as
                      tapped in to the truth as a human can be.

                      See how easy it is to admit that you're wrong. :)

                      The dissociated state is created when you become aware of just tragically turned around
                      this world is. Also, trying to process the amount data created by that kind of experience
                      is a bit overwhelming for a human brain. Kind of like trying to render video with an Atari.

                      Personally I'd rather have a world full of people reeling from transcendent experiences than
                      the mostly mindless sheeple we seem to have now.
                      • It's funny, in todays world, if you pray to God, you're a good person.
                        If he answers, you're schizophrenic.

                        So Hoopes, have you experienced it firsthand?
                        • enough cognitive dissonance, lets get back on topic shall we.

                          I found this great interview with Steven Greer about disclosure since he is all about that and also over unity energy technology disclosure.

                          www.youtube.com/watch
                          • Disclosure pleas are the boring "B" side of conspiracy theories.
                            • "Disclosure pleas are the boring "B" side of conspiracy theories"

                              They are pretty anti-climatic as seen with recent UK disclosures. Saying it's so doesn't make it so. I think if ships landed at the White House and little green men walked out up to a microphone, folks would say the whole thing was staged from a Hollywood studio as some kind of false flag event.
                            • ET disclosure is taken more seriously than any other conspiracy. I'm not sure exactly what perspective you may have about this subject how ever I assume that it probably has something to do with the commonly debunked psychological disorder approach. I can understand why this perspective would be the only direction of approach for some with this subject as it may be something that causes such extreme dissonance in the beliefs of an individual. I think Dennis Kucinich's wife said it best though when she stated " We would be entirely ignorant to believe that we are the only intelligent creatures in all of space". Maybe its more of a conspiracy theory to believe that we are the only expression of intelligent life in all of existence. Which one of these notions, that are presently being conspired, has less supporting evidence? A) We are the only expression of life in the universe B) We are not the only expression of life in the universe.

                              Since I began studying ufology I have not seen any substantial evidence that could disprove the existence of ufo's. At most there is speculation about the brain chemistry of these individuals which is the same argument that is used for NDE's as well. In my opinion this is an entirely biased approach and not scientific.
                              • "ET disclosure is taken more seriously than any other conspiracy."

                                Boy, THAT sure adds credence to the subject.

                                That's like saying that the study of unicorns surpasses the search for pixies, fairies, Bigfoot and the Tooth Fairy.