http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e63a53de-8417-4d19-984d-1bbb7d6066e1 Darling, you are a beautiful, humorous "tool" of the Light. Thank you for your input and output. (Snort, snort, snicker. I said "tool" :) Mon, 10 Jul 2006 16:39:20 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e63a53de-8417-4d19-984d-1bbb7d6066e1 $item.owner.firstName 2006-07-10T16:39:20Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1b1fe074-6ddf-40c7-a16d-544165a57f2f Considering Alan Watts bragged that he made up his lectures as he went along (and was well paid for it) the comment seems disigenious. Hoopes is getting paid but I'm not getting paid nor is Daniel. Mon, 10 Jul 2006 15:54:36 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1b1fe074-6ddf-40c7-a16d-544165a57f2f drew hempel 2006-07-10T15:54:36Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1bcc81a9-4d26-43d4-b6ec-d8672ac28b5b Hoopes -- glad to see you cite these books, both of which I've read, and they're excellent! Definitely not the normal dreck in New Age (corporate greenwashing Freemason) circles. Mon, 10 Jul 2006 15:50:01 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1bcc81a9-4d26-43d4-b6ec-d8672ac28b5b drew hempel 2006-07-10T15:50:01Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a6aa3629-a83b-400c-967f-9a89f96357ca great letter Mon, 10 Jul 2006 15:48:34 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a6aa3629-a83b-400c-967f-9a89f96357ca drew hempel 2006-07-10T15:48:34Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1c3de2dc-d6a7-41b4-b6d7-7a6adae80127 wharrrrrrrtttt who say no milk where you see no milk MILK IMPLIED like Donny and Marie Milk COOOOOOOKKKKKKIE you take back crumble curse i take lactose free thankyouverymuch Love Light Bow Mon, 10 Jul 2006 07:01:21 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1c3de2dc-d6a7-41b4-b6d7-7a6adae80127 Kundalini 2006-07-10T07:01:21Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#471ef1ba-0c11-4427-bc3c-01a8171c7bc3 As I have posted before, Daniel was fortunate to have his book reviewed in the NYT Sunday Book Review, and to have his response placed in the letters section today is another complement. I did not find the original book review as a negative review, and many writers would be pleased to have their work reviewed in the NYT Sunday Book Review. I was 22 years old 40 years ago, and while Daniel may feel slighted by the review, I see it as a step forward. Mon, 10 Jul 2006 02:04:25 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#471ef1ba-0c11-4427-bc3c-01a8171c7bc3 sidecross 2006-07-10T02:04:25Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#dcb6e820-aaf8-4c0e-b23a-17e33e05a4c4 Nice rebuttal. Mon, 10 Jul 2006 00:23:53 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#dcb6e820-aaf8-4c0e-b23a-17e33e05a4c4 Steven 2006-07-10T00:23:53Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#4236d931-3549-48d2-b092-e96ab1c8a087 Daniel’s letter concerning his book review in today’s NYT Sunday Book Review. States of Consciousness To the Editor: In the same issue of the Book Review in which Robert Stone argues for "generosity and tolerance" and against the "vocabulary of dismissal" in reviewing, I was disappointed to encounter Anthony Swofford's harsh appraisal of my book "2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl" (June 18). From Swofford's swipes, the reader would have no idea that "2012" weaves together ideas from such thinkers as Carl Jung, Martin Heidegger, Walter Benjamin, Jean Gebser and Fritjof Capra, among others. I do not propose that "near the end of 2012 the world as we know it will end," as Swofford misstates. Instead, I develop the hypothesis that we are already in a process of accelerated transformation, compelling an evolution in human consciousness, and I explore what this could mean for our world. While use of psychedelic substances in indigenous shamanic ritual is a strand of the book, it is only one of many elements, although Swofford does not bother to mention this. How sad that even today, 40 years after the social and cultural watershed of the 1960's, our media seem incapable of holding a serious — or, apparently, even a civil — discussion about the validity of non-ordinary states of consciousness. Our capacity for avoiding inconvenient truths appears to be matched by our inability to entertain transformative possibilities. DANIEL PINCHBECK New York http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/books/review/09mail.html?pagewanted=2 Mon, 10 Jul 2006 00:06:32 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#4236d931-3549-48d2-b092-e96ab1c8a087 sidecross 2006-07-10T00:06:32Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#36db12d3-1014-444a-9c19-0ea38271b1aa What, a world made out of cookies and no milk??? (or in my case it would be soy-milk) That sounds like HELL to me! I hope your cookie-world crumbles! Sun, 09 Jul 2006 17:05:35 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#36db12d3-1014-444a-9c19-0ea38271b1aa $item.owner.firstName 2006-07-09T17:05:35Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7e112520-fb48-43f2-9d91-94cffb568c4a so basically what you are syaing is i could create a world made out of COOOOKIES!!!!!! YEAAAAAA THER WILL BE COOKIES! Love Light Bow <chewchewchew> Sat, 08 Jul 2006 01:06:25 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7e112520-fb48-43f2-9d91-94cffb568c4a Kundalini 2006-07-08T01:06:25Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1cfcc559-45ff-47d8-9422-902d78999737 Hey I heard somewhere that the earth's magnetic field will reach the zero point in the year 2012 and someone was saying that human beings will lose their ability to identify with their thoughtforms as a result of this (I am paraphrasing).. This would mean to me that those favoring an approach of mind would find themselves utterly rudderless, would no longer be able to orient themselves to reality, and that reality would actually lose the rigidity that mind has placed on it by over-identification with thoughtforms and that these people with their death creating rational thoughtforms would just drift away with nothing real to anchor them in physical vibration. YAAAY!!!! Fri, 07 Jul 2006 23:06:03 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1cfcc559-45ff-47d8-9422-902d78999737 $item.owner.firstName 2006-07-07T23:06:03Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3f3a9600-9e3b-4bad-9ecd-33595fb3315c i'm really sorry<chagrin> i was taught impeccability, but i think i only got a c+ Love Light Bow Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:30:34 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3f3a9600-9e3b-4bad-9ecd-33595fb3315c Kundalini 2006-06-30T07:30:34Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#28a3ec2d-681d-47a2-add7-686142695230 did you change your picture for me?? <giggleblushsnort> Love Light Bow Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:24:27 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#28a3ec2d-681d-47a2-add7-686142695230 Kundalini 2006-06-30T07:24:27Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#19da591a-d4d1-40d0-b484-f7df756a968e theo, it is hard for me to care to take the time to answer you after so many offensive personal attacks. Why is it that people think just because someone is a writer that they have no sensitivity to being treated with hostility? On the one point, polyamory- I am not advocating anything. I am trying to understand it for myself. I am purely working from my own honest confusion, and trying to find some answers, or at least better questions. That is the method I use when something interests me and engages my curiosity. What ultimately interests me would be to reach the point where one went beyond any labels, where sexuality was never discussed because it was just so natural in its flow and its expression, that there would be no need for laborious theories about it. Perhaps that would be monogamy, perhaps something radically different. To get back to that point, however, we may have to unwind back through thousands of years of misconceptions and try to understand not only our own natures (which are to a certain extent perhaps karmically determined and even embedded in our astrological chart), but how to express those natures in a healthy and healing way. If a shift in paradigm is required, it will affect everything - the nature of our institutions, etc. From BOTH to 2012, I think it is clear that I deepened my understanding of the shamanic paradigm, and offered a more deliberate application of the ideas I pulled together for shifting our immediate future as a planetary culture. Fri, 30 Jun 2006 00:17:07 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#19da591a-d4d1-40d0-b484-f7df756a968e Daniel 2006-06-30T00:17:07Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d2ee8dad-69ef-486a-a2ff-5ccedb7e15cb projected bullshit...like the slave girl from a past life? Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:37:33 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d2ee8dad-69ef-486a-a2ff-5ccedb7e15cb Theo 2006-06-29T23:37:33Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#baa70bf3-a5cc-4eb9-a0c0-700b78105209 Well Im glad you addressed that issue, and since I cannot disprove your defiance...I will submit to that claim (for now). However, I do see marketing in your post. But since I have submitted that claim...I wont ask for a couple examples to your life works in 'defiance of the dollar.' Daniel, you wrote the book...I bought them all (both)...I have a right to ask and if you refuse to answer simple pointed questions I have the right to point out obvious conclusion of my own, yes? Can you now address the issues of philosophical outline in your book? For example the polygamy, what was/is your vission? I have read your sex & gender thread and see no vissionary outline. I see an attempt to use computers as a 'keep track of std method'...which Im sure big brother is on the ball there. How will your system of 'free love' work? How does the 'round table' forum (that we already have in the form on the UN) work, or is going to work? I dont see that as a valid conclusion. And suppose it does happen, what has changed with your scenario other then a balance of power? What do you see as your major shift between the writing of BOH & 2012...I see a few. I would like to know your personal perspective? Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:03:15 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#baa70bf3-a5cc-4eb9-a0c0-700b78105209 Theo 2006-06-29T23:03:15Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#28d60e99-27fe-43f8-ba8c-9de90d2a8a49 theo writes: "yet you arent skeptical of the dollar are you...lol " i have lived my whole life in defiance of the dollar, fighting against the market's status quo. For many years, I have been basically impoverished. I know I have decent skills as a writer and journalist, but because I followed my conscience in terms of subject matter, I was basically blackballed from writing for any venue that pays decently, including many I used to work for, such as the NY Times Magazine, Rolling Stone, Wired, etc. The only place I could write what I wanted were free magazines that paid me nothing, like Arthur, and even Arthur rejected my work when it became too controversial for them. The last book took four years to write and I received an advance of $40,000 for it. That is $10,000 a year. I have yet to see any royalties for Breaking Open the Head, which had an even smaller advance. I have willingly accepted poverty because I felt compelled to pursue subjects that seemed to me to be of urgent importance to humanity - and if i wasn't going to do it, who would? At this point in time, I am still unable to contribute very much to my daughter's upkeep or education, which totally sucks. Since you have no idea what you are talking about, why don't you stop projecting your bullshit onto me? Perhaps a bit more self-examination is in order? Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:38:35 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#28d60e99-27fe-43f8-ba8c-9de90d2a8a49 Daniel 2006-06-29T22:38:35Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f68963e2-830e-49af-b5b0-20b3aafcd0a0 "i think i am a far more thorough skeptic than you or most people" To echo Bernhard, "Was this a contest? I didn't know." "As well as being skeptical, I am radically curious" That makes two of us: http://del.icio.us/hoopes "Perhaps some form of empathic, humorous curiosity is or could be humanity's saving grace." It's refreshing to hear that you appreciate the value of humor, Daniel. I also agree that radical curiosity, combined with a healthy dose of skepticism, is the best way to go. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:07:47 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f68963e2-830e-49af-b5b0-20b3aafcd0a0 Hoopes 2006-06-29T17:07:47Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#61e0889a-418e-4147-81b2-c4b55dcc427c <<am skeptical of the "laws" of the universe, skeptical of the constraints of time and space, skeptical of my own existence as more than a mask that "God" or the universal consciousness has chosen to wear in order to play its cosmic puppet show. I am skeptical of any claim of authority or objectivity on the part of any sentient entity, whether human or astral. I am skeptical of institutions and academies and ambitions. I can go on if you like. It just seems to me that we have put a lot of prison bars around our possibilities. As well as being skeptical, I am radically curious - a friend of mine told me that what he enjoyed most about my book was that it was a celebration of curiosity. I really appreciated that it would be taken in that spirit. Curiosity requires openness to new possibilities and ideas, without closure. I sympathize with the Fool card in the Tarot deck - the guy who goes out for a walk just to find out what's going on, and then all the trouble starts because he is open for it, non-attached to any particular outcome, and hence ready for anything. Perhaps some form of empathic, humorous curiosity is or could be humanity's saving grace. >> Excellent post, Daniel. That expresses my point of view as well. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:44:18 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#61e0889a-418e-4147-81b2-c4b55dcc427c gayle 2006-06-29T16:44:18Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#ebdee4b6-731a-4b18-8d68-5d7a9f6642f5 yet you arent skeptical of the dollar are you...lol still the materialist...yes? You are only skeptic of those things that go against your preaching... Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:37:33 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#ebdee4b6-731a-4b18-8d68-5d7a9f6642f5 Theo 2006-06-29T16:37:33Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a442f561-3dde-46bc-8268-9401ec8d28e5 hi john, as i have said a few times ago, i think i am a far more thorough skeptic than you or most people... i am skeptical of the "laws" of the universe, skeptical of the constraints of time and space, skeptical of my own existence as more than a mask that "God" or the universal consciousness has chosen to wear in order to play its cosmic puppet show. I am skeptical of any claim of authority or objectivity on the part of any sentient entity, whether human or astral. I am skeptical of institutions and academies and ambitions. I can go on if you like. It just seems to me that we have put a lot of prison bars around our possibilities. As well as being skeptical, I am radically curious - a friend of mine told me that what he enjoyed most about my book was that it was a celebration of curiosity. I really appreciated that it would be taken in that spirit. Curiosity requires openness to new possibilities and ideas, without closure. I sympathize with the Fool card in the Tarot deck - the guy who goes out for a walk just to find out what's going on, and then all the trouble starts because he is open for it, non-attached to any particular outcome, and hence ready for anything. Perhaps some form of empathic, humorous curiosity is or could be humanity's saving grace. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:27:24 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a442f561-3dde-46bc-8268-9401ec8d28e5 Daniel 2006-06-29T16:27:24Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7dd583b9-53a6-4ab0-a0f7-4a7a54c5eb76 you can always google search professor David F. Noble and drew hempel for the details -- it's on http://drewhempel.gnn.tv -- he gives a structural expose of science as capitalism. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:39:12 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7dd583b9-53a6-4ab0-a0f7-4a7a54c5eb76 drew hempel 2006-06-29T14:39:12Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#cf2c2396-68ad-4449-bcd5-822cdbdbe018 snortlaugh im a girl should we start reffering to you as Sith Lord Hoopes Darth Hoopes ... i did give you a way to test the hyposthesis... ... i hope i haven't unleashed a monster!!! Love Light Laughing Bow Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:38:29 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#cf2c2396-68ad-4449-bcd5-822cdbdbe018 Kundalini 2006-06-29T06:38:29Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#4393e541-9a13-4b4b-9840-a4c194c87d75 You write, "...the skeptic is actually a believer in materialism and empiricism, and therefore uses skepticism to deny any other possibilities of being (even those that include empirical, statistical, and scientific evidence)." Given that, it's a bit ironic to note the language that's being used to market your book: From the book description on Amazon.com: "Cross Umberto Eco, Aldous Huxley, and Carlos Castaneda and you get the voice of Daniel Pinchbeck. And yet nothing quite prepares you for the lucidity, rationality, and informed audacity of this seeker, SKEPTIC, and cartographer of hidden realms." (Emphasis mine.) And this blurb: "The author is not some hippy-dippy hedonist staggering down the road of excess but rather a SKEPTICAL philosopher of consciousness seeking the enlightened path." - Troy Patterson, Entertainment Weekly (Emphasis mine) I realize that these are labels that are being applied by others, but they are being used to sell your book. Do you think it's only good to be skeptical of some things and not others? Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:30:27 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#4393e541-9a13-4b4b-9840-a4c194c87d75 Hoopes 2006-06-29T06:30:27Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#10bd298a-235b-4abe-8afe-43a8208e029b "I know you won't be able to seriously consider what Light wrote" Not at all. He's convinced me that I'm a dark shaman. Once I've got my mojo working, you'd better watch out. "i also like Grant Morrison's idea that the occult energies/entities that sustain themselves on fear and control are in fact a necessary part of the ecosystem of consciousness - we have to create permanent antibodies to them, then expell them from our system, as much as possible." If they're a necessary part of the ecosystem, won't it mess things up if they're expelled? Ecologists use the term "keystone species" for top-of-the-food-chain predators like bears, wolves, jaguars, sharks, etc. whose presence is necessary to sustain the whole system. When these animals are eradicated, as with wolves and bears in parts of the U.S., the ecosystem begins to unravel. It's not accidental that Central and South American shamans identify these animals as their spirit companions and shape-shift into them in order to do their work. It's not pleasant, but someone's gotta do it. Maybe that's why skeptical materialists get nominated for the Antichrist-for-a Day Award: http://www.sentex.net/~tcc/antichr.html Thu, 29 Jun 2006 06:00:06 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#10bd298a-235b-4abe-8afe-43a8208e029b Hoopes 2006-06-29T06:00:06Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3b6ae91a-008c-4270-9b59-a11c70ea034e "But I'm into books and meditation mainly and he was into superficial ego trips." Yeah, I guess didn't have much in common. "What 'passive consumer' role will you play? Ignorance is a choice." Not in this case. I don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:29:27 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3b6ae91a-008c-4270-9b59-a11c70ea034e Hoopes 2006-06-29T05:29:27Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#65ce2ddd-cf78-4cc2-ae4a-3a1681ba92c4 This little patch of real estate in cyberspace is getting crowded again, so we've opened a new branch: http://2012.tribe.net/thread/b18de7a6-2894-447d-9f74-8c0ca52428d4 Please cut and paste whatever's relevant and indicate who said it so those who want to try and make sense of it can. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 05:13:08 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#65ce2ddd-cf78-4cc2-ae4a-3a1681ba92c4 Hoopes 2006-06-29T05:13:08Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e3a6f8d4-e190-4136-9067-02d85e17d27e do u have any dj mixes in your music collection? any u like? if so, which ones? consider me a curious fish again... Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:43:17 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e3a6f8d4-e190-4136-9067-02d85e17d27e littlefish 2006-06-29T04:43:17Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#0ff9a070-0ac2-45f5-9d0c-2b72870d0a52 and you il diavolo! alarmist... Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:32:06 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#0ff9a070-0ac2-45f5-9d0c-2b72870d0a52 davidsjelly 2006-06-29T02:32:06Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#91cc5d3d-2a4e-4245-aa2b-feaee8771c31 There's no intelligent life down here! Abandon Thread, Abandon Thread!! See you in the next dimension--RATIONALISTS! (if you ever get there, suckers) Rationalism (n.) 1. Reliance on reason as the best guide for belief and action. 2. Philosophy. The theory that the exercise of reason, rather than experience, authority, or spiritual revelation, provides the primary basis for knowledge. (Answers.com) Evolve or Die! il Divino Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:29:01 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#91cc5d3d-2a4e-4245-aa2b-feaee8771c31 il divino 2006-06-29T02:29:01Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#99240784-4809-4a99-afff-09324853d351 Lea' me alone, Theo! Go pick on Daniel! Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:13:49 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#99240784-4809-4a99-afff-09324853d351 $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-29T02:13:49Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3647b3fd-3c6f-4386-b834-e0f286911f3b No Such, Let me take a line or two to address the 'fall down 6 times'...great post to push the participants into the possible future outcome of 2012...however, as a quasi-marketing specialist...I would have changed your thread title to something more engaging. the quasi-skeptic Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:38:15 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3647b3fd-3c6f-4386-b834-e0f286911f3b Theo 2006-06-29T01:38:15Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d026d390-24a0-4c77-acdf-b2fad1b52ef1 > For dark shamanism to work, it requires the participation of the victim. Belief in ghosts, the power of occult forces, and acceptance of pseudoscience are ways that can happen. For me, education, skepticism, and science are all an effective "defense against the dark arts". "The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he does not exist" Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:29:30 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d026d390-24a0-4c77-acdf-b2fad1b52ef1 $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-29T01:29:30Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5c12a047-1239-4512-aba7-5aa6d331796b I would not be such the 'skeptic' if I didnt think you do more harm then good. You remind me of every video clip on google that talks about Salvia, simple a superficial overview in an attempt to exert pseudo knowledge...only difference is you do it for the cash of it. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:22:19 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5c12a047-1239-4512-aba7-5aa6d331796b Theo 2006-06-29T01:22:19Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2d320f11-2b6e-49b2-b9ae-f40b65fd9092 Questioning Daniel seems to put everyone/ every questioner in the category of ''skeptical materialism-ist.'' When it seems so clear to a neutral observer that Daniel is the ''Quintessential Materialist''...find a market niche and exploit the chattel minded optimists. What strikes me - and none of your 'fan-addicts’- is that, NONE of your ideas are yours. You simply quote someone else...relates your experience in an attempt to pin it to reality...then close with some intuitive theory (intuitive - in Daniel’s case means: a guess at a connections without proof. Much like a scientist saying here is my hypothesis, so why do the experiments). In every defense/thought you quote someone else as if it gives validity to your conjecture. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 01:19:18 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2d320f11-2b6e-49b2-b9ae-f40b65fd9092 Theo 2006-06-29T01:19:18Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#12b56cbe-e214-4202-a9a5-dd6c59eac24b Light, it took some persistent searching to find your tribe. To make it easier for everyone else -- the name is actually "2012 IntuitiveEnergeticEvolution." I've joined. It will be good to have a place to actually talk in a focused way about participating in -- or helping birth -- the great shift. Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:50:27 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#12b56cbe-e214-4202-a9a5-dd6c59eac24b gayle 2006-06-29T00:50:27Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#eaafe8e1-e889-4736-b9f1-6c5759bfd65b Il Divino's earlier post also resonates with me. The mind itself is not enough - it is nothing without uniting with the heart and the intuition. The mind can always create a tautological prison for itself out of logic. Science can be employed to further what Nietzsche called the "will to ignorance." The mind has to be drafted into service of the whole being, then it can find its proper place. John, I know you won't be able to seriously consider what Light wrote as anything but some sort of metaphorical concept that could be given anthropological analysis, representing how the "New Age" has embraced occult ideas with no basis in empirical "Fact." However, I would ask you to think about it differently. I would say that skeptical materialism, as practiced by you and many others, is actually a belief system - the skeptic is actually a believer in materialism and empiricism, and therefore uses skepticism to deny any other possibilities of being (even those that include empirical, statistical, and scientific evidence). This entire belief system is itself Ahrimanic, in Steiner's terms, and its demonic effect is that it imprisons the ego and alienates the soul. The desire of the ego to enshrine itself as the solitary source of meaning in a meaningless universe creates a hell realm. I recall watching an early Bush "State of the Union" address, with Cheney in the shadows behind him, and I had such a strong intuitive hit of Cheney as a very old being who had done this work in many lifetimes, on many worlds. i also like Grant Morrison's idea that the occult energies/entities that sustain themselves on fear and control are in fact a necessary part of the ecosystem of consciousness - we have to create permanent antibodies to them, then expell them from our system, as much as possible. Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:52:49 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#eaafe8e1-e889-4736-b9f1-6c5759bfd65b Daniel 2006-06-28T23:52:49Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#dc1b9f88-01e1-424b-a339-6cd23dcf4213 the sycophants riot...and its a laugh. Does is strike you odd that your leader is...idealess... If he is the best you have to offer, no wonder your wimpering goes unheard. Without love for DP and his forgery, Theo Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:50:26 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#dc1b9f88-01e1-424b-a339-6cd23dcf4213 Theo 2006-06-28T22:50:26Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3d103f97-5ae2-4250-a4e1-de4662eb2ad7 sigh Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:25:16 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3d103f97-5ae2-4250-a4e1-de4662eb2ad7 rebecca 2006-06-28T22:25:16Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e155de80-6239-44e2-9ff9-f3ed5033f4c5 com visit my tribe 2012 energeticintuitiveevolution geared toward internal change to support the external change that also needs to happen via the Heart oh man that cracked me up.... well said balance good come play with me Love Light Bow Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:16:15 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e155de80-6239-44e2-9ff9-f3ed5033f4c5 Kundalini 2006-06-28T22:16:15Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#222a52e3-78ad-489a-a434-d420a32527dc Hoopes assume the worst! Hoopes the great passive "consumer" of information -- your "type" is very common on the internet. I just feel sorry for Daniel that he worked so hard to publish his book and you drained and drained his energy. Of course I discussed all the details with Gore. The issue is based on corporate charter law -- corporate legal personhood. The lawyer that controls the stocks has "fiduciary responsiblity" to maximize profts by the corporate charter which is legally protected by the bill of rights -- OVER THE LEGAL personhood of citizens. Step into a Mall and you, my friend, are not a legal person protected by the Bill of Rights, the Mall Business is. Jiggy? Even the Rockefellers have to file a lawsuit if they want to change their family trust fund stocks. The system is in charge my friend. As for druggie friends -- my best "friend" for the past several years is an extreme pot smoker and I finally gave up on the dude. No intellectually capacity and just stupid sex obsession. This isn't to dismiss all "druggies" at all -- in fact not even pot smoking. But I'm into books and meditation mainly and he was into superficial ego trips. So it depends on the context I think. I heard some great crack-rape stories a couple days I ago. Moms will give up rights to see their kids just so they can get a crack hit. So what's your shtick this time? What are you going to ignore? What "passive consumer" role will you play? Ignorance is a choice. The Market of Science that you proscribe to is just that capitalism. Wed, 28 Jun 2006 22:01:35 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#222a52e3-78ad-489a-a434-d420a32527dc drew hempel 2006-06-28T22:01:35Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#57a7c2a2-9049-46c5-92df-8538dca2962b nice one, Light! Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:56:15 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#57a7c2a2-9049-46c5-92df-8538dca2962b Daniel 2006-06-28T21:56:15Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#db6939c9-da48-4660-b458-5dc22cc1ca0d <<I don't think that I am, but I don't doubt that many of us *are* under the influence of dark shamanism. For dark shamanism to work, it requires the participation of the victim. Belief in ghosts, the power of occult forces, and acceptance of pseudoscience are ways that can happen. For me, education, skepticism, and science are all an effective "defense against the dark arts". >> here is the rub you don't have to believe in energy it exists with or with out you witnessing or believing... Shamnism/Mysticism/occultism/Buddhism/Hinduism all deal with this in some form or another how to harness and use this energy to transform the self... the Hindu Gods and Goddesses a way to focus and manifest a particular energy... Thought is energy ideas energy that has yet to manifest matter the idea thought manifested you don't have to believe to be influenced if it takes a form you agree exists if it operates in the worldview you hold in a suit and a tie sounds like you acts like you gives you exactly what you expect lulling you that much further into sleep.. no suprises giving you exactly what you expected, reinforcing your worldview because that is what they want... how would you recognize it if it is what has been indoctrinated into you at birth... that this is how the world works, that the manipulation of energy can have no effect on you if you don't believe it. What you see is what you get. Prove it, show me here is an experiment you can do go to a quiet place that is not frequented by many people... stay awhile and see what happens to your thoughts now.. go to a busy place frequented by lots of people see what happens to your thoughts we are susceptible to energy manipulation because we have been taught to look for it in specific forms...in your case ghosts and witches and shamans or that it does not exist at all. If you wanted to control people, and you didn't want them to know how they were being controlled, i know i would tell them that such a thing does not exist...why science proves it..these are the beliefs of primitive backwards people... people who believe in that are fruitcakes, nuts thats what i would do if i wanted external power make them think it's their idea make it fit into their view of the world stroke the ego tell them how great they are how awesome their service is get them on myside hook them to my ring of power until it becomes self-sustaining and society a reflection of my ego what i think is good and bad what i think is real what i want to remain hidden hides in plain sight oh yes.... reincarnation pat lives spent in mmystery schools people of dark intent drawn to power over and over again always subverting it for the ego for external power i imagine they would be Masters in this western world Masters of industry Masters of Politics Masters of War Masters of Advertising all these masters using occult energy in Western Guise so really...energy only requires will and intent to be harnessed and used... past life training helps... so what makes you think you aren't under a Dark Shamans control already... in their nice suits and ties and perfect smiles and common sense wisdom? feeling sleepy? Love Light Bow Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:22:46 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#db6939c9-da48-4660-b458-5dc22cc1ca0d Kundalini 2006-06-28T21:22:46Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d3898143-7173-4c19-b574-87f84dcd6357 I guess you took it personally. il Divino Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:49:28 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d3898143-7173-4c19-b574-87f84dcd6357 il divino 2006-06-28T20:49:28Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#191cc1e6-2e21-4b2a-af71-67308985d2a0 Not that anyone who calls himself "il Divino" has a problem with hubris... Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:29:32 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#191cc1e6-2e21-4b2a-af71-67308985d2a0 Hoopes 2006-06-28T20:29:32Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9fd75647-7bdc-4e62-a534-6797f5c3ea73 One would not be able to tell if they were under the spell of the dark magic, or sorcery, unless one is aligned with the light. The intent behind energy can only be determined by feeling, that is, a pure heart. And a pure heart knows when it is aligned with the Source. Those who favor the approach of the mind over the approach of intuition are subject to endless argument over "truth", "reality" and "man". As seen in this fucking stupid arrogant thread. The hubris here makes me sick: a daisy chain of mutual intellectual masturbation, completely blind to it's own denials. Not that intuition is superior, but a BALANCED approach of MIND and INTUITION is what is needed now. So get to it brainiacs! Especially if one wants to free themselves from the Dark Wizard, who pulls the strings of your soul right now by using your own denial. If the mind could figure this out without the input of the emotions, then it would have already. Your exclusive round and round the Mulberry Bush is over Wake UP! The Weasel Goes PoP Motherfuckers! Don't take this personally, unless you do. il Divino Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:05:09 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9fd75647-7bdc-4e62-a534-6797f5c3ea73 il divino 2006-06-28T19:05:09Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a86c7c4f-0a28-482e-9bb1-09ee9d3c1c56 I do wonder how many people who buy "dolphin free" tuna also shop for "murder free" marijuana. Maybe the Evolver project will have a solution... Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:52:41 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a86c7c4f-0a28-482e-9bb1-09ee9d3c1c56 Hoopes 2006-06-28T17:52:41Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#264d9417-f5e9-4e62-b2ea-7808287aeb54 The more Drew trash talks, and then points to his credentials as proof of his rhetoric; he will forever be in my mind an open question of whether he is a provocateur, CIA, or Military intelligence agent. (wink) Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:35:48 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#264d9417-f5e9-4e62-b2ea-7808287aeb54 sidecross 2006-06-28T17:35:48Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7fe28f87-24cf-4e22-9a3b-b042d840f95f Here's a good example of a clash of worldviews. What's *the* most important psychoactive plant used for healing rituals by traditional shamans in the Americas? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300057903 The U.S. surgeon has just declared that the debate on its effects is "over" http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-06-27-involuntary-smoking_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA "Anti-tobacco activists said the report is a blueprint for future action. Matthew Myers, president of the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids, said all states and communities should immediately ban smoking in all workplaces: 'Anything else leaves Americans' health at risk.'" Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:33:12 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7fe28f87-24cf-4e22-9a3b-b042d840f95f Hoopes 2006-06-28T17:33:12Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#4ab5c874-3983-49d7-9da7-5ac6a99ee9ab "Gore can't even change his family stocks in Oxy Oil..." If he can't change them, why are you holding him responsible? Did you ask him if he would if he could? "I explained that the CIA controls the drug trade" If that's so, are you also yelling at the people who are buying the drugs? Or are they also incapable of or unwilling to change their "stocks"? Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:23:02 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#4ab5c874-3983-49d7-9da7-5ac6a99ee9ab Hoopes 2006-06-28T17:23:02Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f6c0dcb6-6cf0-4d46-9a6d-d083fe606c0d ‘"Shamanism is a linguistic interaction... [It] operates in the confines of language." That is a strange statement. Could you explain what you mean?’ To quote from John Lilly: …“in the providence of the mind, what is believed to be true is true or becomes true, within limits to be found experientially and experimentally. These limits are further beliefs to be transcended. In the providence of the mind there are no limits.” McKenna often spoke that that we can not progress and further than our language. Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:11:53 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f6c0dcb6-6cf0-4d46-9a6d-d083fe606c0d sidecross 2006-06-28T17:11:53Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#6a0772c0-59ac-4597-a1df-b4365f48a273 Gore can't even change his family stocks in Oxy Oil which the Amazonian Indians are fighting to kick out of Ecuador. I confronted Gore with this fact for 30 minutes in the basement of the VFW in 2000. I explained that the CIA controls the drug trade, as documented by Professor Alfred McCoy and Gore and his special service (some of whom were CIA) got really bewildered and wild-eyed. Finally the secret service said: "C'mon Al let's go!" It was funny and as he was just going out the day I yelled "the blood of the U'Wa is on your conscience!" Then helicopters flew over the parking lot and a cop pulled me over, asked for my license, and never said why he pulled me over, just came back to my car and said "thanks." Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:29:16 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#6a0772c0-59ac-4597-a1df-b4365f48a273 drew hempel 2006-06-28T16:29:16Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d2636e79-df42-4c6f-a6f7-73bf03cf7eca "Shamanism is a linguistic interaction... [It] operates in the confines of language." That is a strange statement. Could you explain what you mean? Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:57:38 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d2636e79-df42-4c6f-a6f7-73bf03cf7eca gayle 2006-06-28T15:57:38Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5837e9cf-f95a-46b9-8e36-d78916362ef8 Shamanism is a linguistic interaction. While an older paradigm than monotheism, Hinduism, Lao Tzu, and Buddhism, shamanism none the less operates in the confines of language. Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:36:20 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5837e9cf-f95a-46b9-8e36-d78916362ef8 sidecross 2006-06-28T14:36:20Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a6a70803-40c7-41b8-a67f-b6c4c5f77f7c Light asks, "What makes you think that you aren't under the influence of dark shamnism already?" I wrote, "Shamanism may be an effective means of social control, but it is really a "wiser paradigm"? (And is it really all that different from what's playing out right now in the global arena?)" I don't think that I am, but I don't doubt that many of us *are* under the influence of dark shamanism. For dark shamanism to work, it requires the participation of the victim. Belief in ghosts, the power of occult forces, and acceptance of pseudoscience are ways that can happen. For me, education, skepticism, and science are all an effective "defense against the dark arts". If you believed in supernatural forces, wouldn't you feel compelled to act on them? There is plenty of anthropological documentation of the role shamans play in identifying and punishing witches and sorcerers. When they do so, isn't that also a form of dark shamanism? (Think of the individuals who have been traditionally identified as "witches": recluses and hermits, unconventional thinkers, visionaries, dreamers, etc.) In societies that believe in these things, magical warfare (and often physical violence) is a regular occurrence. I'm curious, Daniel. During your visit to the Secoya, did you hear any discussion of witchcraft and sorcery? Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:09:33 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a6a70803-40c7-41b8-a67f-b6c4c5f77f7c Hoopes 2006-06-28T14:09:33Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7d68e963-0f33-47fe-9956-946247f09988 "By the way do you believe that black magic sometimes works? And if so, by what mechanism? Pure suggestibility?" Well (and I still don't have "2012" to consult), I remember that somewhere in there you make the excellent point that these things only work when they are are part of a society's general belief system. I do think that black magic works, but only when the object of the sorcery believes that it will. If I were to tell you, for example, that I've got an uncomplimentary effigy of you made of wax, hair, blood, semen, a little bit of playa dust, scraps of torn pages of your books and articles, and your photograph from Tribe sitting in a dark corner of my basement, and that for the past several weeks I've been pelting it with garbage and stabbing it with knives, you might begin to wonder whether the various aches, pains, mood swings, insomnia, and bad luck that you've been experiencing has actually been my doing. If you really believed this, you would probably feel compelled to counteract the sorcery, either through your own magic or direct physical violence. As I'm sure you know, this kind of thinking resulted in thousands of women and men being burned to death in Europe and Colonial America. I don't think the phrase "pure suggestibility" does justice to the complex relationship between the mind and the body and the context of family and society. There's actually quite a bit of anthropological research on the phenomenon of "voodoo death", briefly explained in this excerpt from a book by Wade Davis: http://www.garynull.com/Documents/HEAL/Voodoo.htm "All that can be ascertained is that voodoo death occurs, and that as a process it involves a number of complementary factors. Fear probably does initiate physiological changes. Certainly it makes the victim psychologically vulnerable, and this in turn affects the physical health. Neurophysiologists still do not fully understand the process, though the response of the victim's family and society would seem inevitably to influence both his psychological and his physical well-being. So, while a universal mechanism to account for voodoo death has not been identified, the basic assumption is clear. As one researcher has put it, the brain has the power to kill or maim the body that bears it." There's no doubt that belief in black magic can also spark very real fear and violence, as in the recent outbreaks in Africa in response to witches who were stealing or shrinking penises: http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2002/9/16/81843/6555 "Belief in fatally retracting genitals, or a belief in genital theft, is usually known by the name 'Koro'. The word is of uncertain origin but is thought to derive from the Malaysian word for tortoise, (sometimes locally used as a slang term for the penis), perhaps with a nod to the tortoises' ability to retract its head into its body. It takes several forms, including a fast spreading social belief that tends to cause panics and widespread concern, and a more isolated form, usually the problem of a lone individual." I hope your johnson's in good working order! Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:55:17 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7d68e963-0f33-47fe-9956-946247f09988 Hoopes 2006-06-28T13:55:17Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1dc71280-db16-4288-9e16-4ad584fdcad8 Scientists OK Gore's Movie for Accuracy http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/27/AR2006062700780.html But who cares what *scientists* think? They're all blinded by a false paradigm. Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:25:02 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1dc71280-db16-4288-9e16-4ad584fdcad8 Hoopes 2006-06-28T13:25:02Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#63ff0fe6-ad6f-4834-9a63-c1cd87449892 I hope Daniel (like me) will get a chuckle out of this: Observation of celestial events suggests that traditional Amazonian societies were "more sophisticated" than previously suspected. (As if their use of entheogens meant they were "less sophisticated"?) Personally, I think the terms "civilization" and "sophisticated" are always ethnocentric and self-referent. The degree to which *any* human society is considered to be civilized or sophisticated is invariably defined by how much "like us" they are. (With the "us" being whatever culture is making that judgement.) I have a feeling this specific language came from the journalist, and not the archaeologist. The more sophisticated archaeologists avoid identifying "a larger population and more complex social organization" as an absolute indication of superiority or progress along a presumed evolutionary trajectory. --- A Stonehenge in a tropical setting Granite blocks in Brazil may be traces of an ancient observatory, archaeologists say. The Associated Press GILMAR NASCIMENTO | THE ASSOCIATED PRESS http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/world/14916083.htm On the shortest day of the year — Dec. 21 — the shadow of one of the blocks spaced at regular intervals on an Amazon hilltop disappears when the sun is directly above it. SAO PAULO, Brazil | - SAO PAULO, Brazil | A grouping of granite blocks along a grassy Amazon hilltop may be the vestiges of a centuries-old astronomical observatory. The 127 blocks, some as high as 9 feet, are spaced at regular intervals around the hill, like a crown 100 feet in diameter. On the shortest day of the year — Dec. 21 — the shadow of one of the blocks disappears when the sun is directly above it. “It is this block’s alignment with the winter solstice that leads us to believe the site was once an astronomical observatory,” said Mariana Petry Cabral, an archaeologist at the Amapa Institute of Scientific and Technological Research. Anthropologists have long known that local indigenous populations were acute observers of the stars and sun. But the discovery of a physical structure that appears to incorporate this knowledge suggests pre-Columbian Indians in the Amazon rainforest may have been more sophisticated than previously suspected. “Transforming this kind of knowledge into a monument, the transformation of something ephemeral into something concrete, could indicate the existence of a larger population and of a more complex social organization,” Cabral said. Cabral has been studying the site in northern Brazil, since last year. While the blocks have not yet been submitted to carbon dating, she says that pottery shards near the site indicate they are pre-Columbian and maybe older — as much as 2,000 years old. Early stargazers •The discovery: A grouping of 127 granite blocks that archaeologists think may be the vestiges of a centuries-old astronomical observatory arranged along a grassy Amazon hilltop. •The significance: Experts say the find suggests early inhabitants of the rainforest were more sophisticated than previously thought. Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:20:54 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#63ff0fe6-ad6f-4834-9a63-c1cd87449892 Hoopes 2006-06-28T13:20:54Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e6d9c8b2-e245-4a94-a98a-44fe3b5d4905 Coordinate geometry is an illusion of the Matrix. Desargues fixed that. http://drewhempel.gnn.tv Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:17:23 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e6d9c8b2-e245-4a94-a98a-44fe3b5d4905 drew hempel 2006-06-28T13:17:23Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#0d383df9-7cb2-48eb-9f50-2fe66b77ce5c Hey! Look at that over there - something receeding rapidly into the distance. Looks like.....the argument..... Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:47:12 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#0d383df9-7cb2-48eb-9f50-2fe66b77ce5c $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-28T07:47:12Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#93a13e11-5723-403f-903a-e56de1ef5512 <<Whitehead argues that there is a tremendous amount of naiveté in contemporary New Age shamanism and describes, in excruciating detail, how dark shamans in Guyana control consciousness and behavior through extreme violence and terrorism>> What makes you think that you aren't under the influence of dark shamnism already? Mysticism/Shamanism/Buddhism/Hinduism all active schools of the occult.. the study of what is hidden the study of the manipulation of energy to manifest intended results... one way to use it leads to Darth Vader syndrome the other to ultimate freedom any person in a position of power uses energy in an occult way whether they know it or not.. the best CEO's the most powerful politicians... Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:15:31 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#93a13e11-5723-403f-903a-e56de1ef5512 Kundalini 2006-06-28T07:15:31Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3f1e4bf2-d99d-41da-9668-4cc29938dc50 hi john, yes there is dark shamanism, as well as dark capitalism. I have given a lot of thought to both. "Whitehead argues that there is a tremendous amount of naiveté in contemporary thought around globalized capitalism and describes, in excruciating detail, how multinational corporations in league with the military industrial complex control consciousness and behavior through extreme violence and terrorism." When I say shamanism, in my own mind, I am making a distinction between shamanism - as a visionary and healing modality used for benefit of a tribe - and sorcery, which tends to solitary acts of amorality or evil attacks on others. I don't agree with you about shamanism and social control, or seeing shamans as capitalists. I like Taussig's concept that the shaman opens a free space for chaos, and then weaves new organizing myths or narratives out of the chaos. By the way do you believe that black magic sometimes works? And if so, by what mechanism? Pure suggestibility? Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:50:02 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3f1e4bf2-d99d-41da-9668-4cc29938dc50 Daniel 2006-06-28T05:50:02Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5e730279-e87d-4260-b6ec-3831f93b41fa hi littlefish, Thanks for your comments. You and I see eye to eye. What I discussed in the interview was only a kind of first layer of what the Evolver membership could develop into, and I completely agree with you about setting up a non-monetary exchange system. This can only be accomplished through a social network based on trust; creating relationships of trust through accountability that is rated and measured over time. Trust is the missing component of our present society - it is why indigenous tribes don't need lawyers and we do. The goal is to try to create an infrastructure for social transformation, and include the members' responses as a feedback loop in the development of the system. Because I am theoretically aligned with the Mayan Calendar time-table developed by Carl Johann Calleman, I expect some kind of general collapse around the year 2008, and hope to have the system up and running before that time. We have to move from the still-unsustainable Whole Foods type vision to a more radical model. Gore, in An Inconvenient Truth, ultimately has no ideas of what to do (except recycle lightbulbs). That is because the climate change may require deep and high-speed systemic change as a response, beyond what politicians can conceive of as possible. The internet (plus mobile tech) provide a potential platform for a very fast reorganization of society, as well as distribution and allocation of goods and services via rational means. This shouldn't be in conflict with current governmental structures - it could simply supersede them, or "transcend and include" them, to borrow Wilber speak. Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:42:37 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5e730279-e87d-4260-b6ec-3831f93b41fa Daniel 2006-06-28T05:42:37Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#86aeb44b-4d75-4849-9780-b9c2bac2eac7 <<sorry to be snide, but that's already happening, with debatable results to the environment (as in organic beef from new zealand stills takes a shit load of oil to be transported to manhattan for example). so in a sense, the project is at this point just capitalizing on a trend, which, given the trend, isn't necessarily a bad thing. of course, i'm making an assumption from an article and what articles do best is simpify and generalize to make a point. so i'm willing to concede that the project is a bit more complex than how daniel's been quoted, especially considering i wholeheartedly agree with his eco-capitalistic objectives (via bucky et al). >> You have a point here, however the flipside of this is more stores offering re-cycled, eco-friendly and organic product. It has given it a mainstream awareness that did not exist before. Look at a larger picture though... as more people become aware of 'product impact' they can make more informed decisions. Getting information out there that will appeal to mainstream consumers, who, lets face it, and i myself am guilty of this, are more interested in convenience than environmental impact is tricky. Recycling, reclaiming, solar power, wind power are making it more and more to the mainstream. Pressure being applied to oil sources around the world has made people more aware of this. If we look at the world and what is happening in it as a response to energetic pressure being applied in order to induce change it changes the whole perspective. The repsonse to pressure on oil, people are starting to by smaller vehicles and asking questions about how they can sustain their lifestyle with out going broke... More of the middle-class is being squeezed out of a consumer life-style into a necessity life-style... power between countries is being shifted... the country with the most extravagant way of life has become the most hated country in the world... soooo, the question is how does one respond to this energy in a positive way that will have the most appeal to the most people in order to create a sustainable action/intent/movement that is good for all, incuding the planet. Light prisms...there are going to be multiple right answers addressing basically the same problem. There will be multiple approaches, multiple movements all starting from the same movement of energy. Softening a system from the inside is easier than from the outside... If you show people they can make money and live comfortably in a sustainable eco friendly way they will go with you. People don't want to hurt the planet...thye aren't thinking about the planet. Their thinking they gotta go grocery shopping, feed the kids, mow the lawn , paint the house, and oh when are we gonna get a plasma... thats fine thats their thing... for those of us drawn to different things drawn to different movements of the same energy well depending on what we are trying to accomplish what we have been drawn into doing or what we were meant to do it is up to us to make that message more accessible, more appealing more available... this board has led me to have a realization for this self that my path right now is to activley seek others interested in energetic experiments... learning how to manifest change on a society level, by manifesting that change internally first and now for the plug... i started a tribe 2012energeticevolution..can't remember the whole name right now.. you can click on my profile to find... and that is my thing right now..not better than anyone elses, just what my heart wants to do right now... soooo not agreeing is fine finding alternate soltuions for the same problem is better it is also good to remember that the bigger the realization the bigger the backlash from ego.. it becomes huge and thinks that it is the higher being, not the gui for the higher being. The bigger the realization the bigger the response. So maybe for world change it is better that it starts smaller and enters the mainstream at a slower pace. We are already witnessing the repsonse to change by the powers that be, by trying to reassert the old ways of power. War, manipulation through fear and propaganda, making it harder for people to focus outside of their own lives by making them fear loss of life, income, home etc. Many small incursions instigating change that becomes trend, trend that becomes mainstream... people working with intent to change existing energetic thought structures external opportunities and prodcuct that supports the internal change, reinforcing it... we have a chance, but we have to act... Love Light Bow Wed, 28 Jun 2006 05:34:04 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#86aeb44b-4d75-4849-9780-b9c2bac2eac7 Kundalini 2006-06-28T05:34:04Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2e80f590-f66c-49ee-a725-ae7072262875 Why do you think that shamanism represents a "wiser" paradigm? I don't know how much thought you've given to dark shamanism, but here are two other books I think you should consider: Dark Shamans: Kanaima and the Poetics of Violent Death, by Neil Whitehead http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0822329883 In Darkness and Secrecy: The Anthropology of Assault Sorcery and Witchcraft in Amazonia, edited by Neil Whitehead and Robin Wright http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0822333457 Whitehead argues that there is a tremendous amount of naiveté in contemporary New Age shamanism and describes, in excruciating detail, how dark shamans in Guyana control consciousness and behavior through extreme violence and terrorism. The kanaima, for example, is a shape-shifting sorcerer who controls social transgressions. His method is by first stalking his victim, placing bits of feathers, fur, or talismans in places where they will find these and become afraid, making them more vulnerable. He also follows them, in animal form, letting them know they're being watched. The kanaima next finds ways to sneak poison into their food, causing nausea and prolonged diarrhea, which further weakens them, all the while continuing to stalk and intimidate them. The kanaima attack comes when the victim is away from their house, usually while on a forest trail or going into the bush to relieve themselves. It is always from behind, perpetrated by the kanaima and his assistants. The victim is held down to the ground and a sharp stick is inserted into their anus. The kanaima draws out a length of their rectum and then cuts it off with a knife. It is then pushed back inside the body, together with a packet of special herbs. Death by wasting, bloody, and painful diarrhea is inevitable. The condition is usually undiagnosed by Western physicians because the kanaima is considered to be a "folktale", simlar to those of werewolves and vampires. The end of the kanaima attack doesn't happen with the victim's death, but occurs a few days after they've been buried. This is when the kanaima returns with his assistants to partially disinter the decaying corpse and suck out some of the sweet juices of putrefaction, thereby destroying the victim's soul. Kanaimas determine who their victims will be through trance and divination. The kanaima, a form of dark shaman, plays a role similar to that of a Mafia godfather. If you someone has stolen your crops or raped your daughter, you can take your problems to the kanaima. He can solve them for you, but always at a cost. Just as a lesser shaman might treat the illness of an individual, the kanaima is a healer who can treat the ills of the community as a whole. However, it happens within the context of a contract conditioned by "the poetics of violent death". Shamanism may be an effective means of social control, but it is really a "wiser paradigm"? (And is it really all that different from what's playing out right now in the global arena?) Like the yin and yang, the light and dark sides of shamanism are really two sides of the same coin. The knowledge of how to cure illness can also be used to cause it. Often, both happen at the same time. Freedom is the same way, especially in the context of capitalism. Can shamanism transform capitalism? One interpretation is that shamans *are* capitalists, using social capital (both good and bad) to manipulate human behavior. This may well have been how the ancient Maya kings obtained and used power, as suggested by archaeologists like David Freidel. I think they often worked as dark shamans, using sorcery and terrorism to control and manipulate both their subjects and their enemies. "Lets go forward, not backwards!" That's such a retro (like late 19th century) thing to say. What keeps the "Evolver" concept from becoming Social Darwinism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinism Wed, 28 Jun 2006 04:59:37 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2e80f590-f66c-49ee-a725-ae7072262875 Hoopes 2006-06-28T04:59:37Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e39dbc7e-00d7-45c5-8adb-f27feacfc128 from the interview: "But the mission is to help ecologically sustainable businesses, ecological entrepreneurship, alternative health, consciousness to create a foundation for a lot new services and good and ideas to get to people's minds and to penetrate deeper into the mainstream." with all due respect, it sounds alot like Whole Foods. sorry to be snide, but that's already happening, with debatable results to the environment (as in organic beef from new zealand stills takes a shit load of oil to be transported to manhattan for example). so in a sense, the project is at this point just capitalizing on a trend, which, given the trend, isn't necessarily a bad thing. of course, i'm making an assumption from an article and what articles do best is simpify and generalize to make a point. so i'm willing to concede that the project is a bit more complex than how daniel's been quoted, especially considering i wholeheartedly agree with his eco-capitalistic objectives (via bucky et al). nonetheless, as it's currently conceived, it's still under the big thumb of the IRS, which means a portion of each transaction is still going to the ideological institution that everyone's (so-called) attempting to evolve from under. why continue to use the dollar as a medium of currency? there are alternatives, plenty of them in use at this very moment. why not expand one into a global/online context? the tools are there, is it not worth the experiment? or is it still all about the benjamins in the end again? Wed, 28 Jun 2006 00:54:28 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e39dbc7e-00d7-45c5-8adb-f27feacfc128 littlefish 2006-06-28T00:54:28Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#4d8eef61-bfce-4fef-965a-891bd126a6b5 i beleive we can make this transformation without falling backwards technologically. i also believe that as more people make a concentrated effort on becoming their true self, the awakened soul, this process will become easier. Were all connected, my awakening benefits your awakening and so on. So it is important that all keep fighting to have new perspectives on old problems and not allowing ourselves to slip into old modes of thought (mindfullness). i am not saying that system wide radical transformation is in order, but radical tranformation on the individual level that in turn leads to new ideas formulated and birthed in existing forms, i.e. captialism, leads to a transformation that can be handeled by more of society. What starts as fad becomes trend, becomes way of being. Ideas with true power stick and actually may be birthed by more than one being. Sustainable Business is a growing 'buzz' word...we will see if it has power, i hope it does.... Tue, 27 Jun 2006 22:00:22 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#4d8eef61-bfce-4fef-965a-891bd126a6b5 Kundalini 2006-06-27T22:00:22Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3846bd98-42db-4dba-a651-638411af27d0 sounds like a good idea to me one of my other tasks involves introducing a new, or perhaps a forgotten perspective on an old form. i believe that once more individuals 'awaken' it will be easier for these types of ideas to become mainstream. imo the root solution is getting more people to awaken to what they truly are. That takes place in the Heart, not in the head... It is a tough process, dropping worldview after worldview... until you believe in nothing... and not for nothing Drew talks a good game... and uses his energy to draw people to him... but it appears to me he has fallen in the sorcorers trap... facsinated by all the tricks and gimmicks... the siddahs but stuck there not using his power to refine himself for the ultimate transformation but to draw people to him to tell him how great he is... to get even more juicy energy now... i am willing to be accused of being pissy or vindictive or whatever you want to call me but... for me to sit by while i can see what he is doing on an energetic level, without giving a heads up would be Adharma for me. There are many ways to use occult energy... the use for transformation or the use to gain external power not that there is anything wrong with either way of being, sometimes you need to play with the one in order to recognize the other... everything has it's place and purpose..just don't get burned Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:27:48 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3846bd98-42db-4dba-a651-638411af27d0 Kundalini 2006-06-27T21:27:48Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2b38810b-9338-4462-ae99-13bd2545af9b Marx was obviously correct that there is a relationship between the productive apparatus of a society and the type of consciousness it creates. However, capitalism is only one of many vectors. Perhaps shamanism - an older and wiser paradigm - can transform capitalism? From his vantage point. Marx wasn't capable of conceiving of the resilience of capitalism in transforming rebellion into new forms of images for purposes of marketing - the Situationists described this process well (Walter Benjamin and Artaud saw it also). What was also unforseeable to previous thinkers (even Marcuse) was that we would hit the limits of the planet's resources at such an accelerated clip. Since capitalism is based upon a continual extension of markets, this means the system must transform itself to survive. By the way, I am not even arguing for an end to capitalism. It is not capitalism that is the problem - the movement and dissemination of goods and services is not a bad thing - it is the values and intentions of the people within the system that is the problem. I like Buckminster Fuller and William McDonogue's kind of argument, that we could transform into an ecological capitalism, where all products made would feed the eco-system (ice cream wrappers would be biodegradable and made with seeds implanted in them, so you would throw them into your garden and grow tomatos, for instance). The necessary Jedi mind-shift is the transformation of our consciousness, which creates new possibilities for being and acting. I am not a Luddite, nor do I argue for a return to premodern tribal life. Lets go forward, not backwards! Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:51:47 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2b38810b-9338-4462-ae99-13bd2545af9b Daniel 2006-06-27T15:51:47Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#fc01f55e-d7ff-4fcf-887d-2ed203ba0b03 For the record, I don't think using Capitalism to transform Capitalism is a bad idea. However, I do think it's more likely that Capitalism will transform its practicioners than the reverse. Do you think Karl Marx was wrong about the nature of consciousness? Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:34:47 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#fc01f55e-d7ff-4fcf-887d-2ed203ba0b03 Hoopes 2006-06-27T15:34:47Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#bee55545-71b6-4308-9e65-548c3d9a5ff1 From the interview: "Evolver is an attempt to put different ideas into practice. Part of what I recognized doing the book, was that doing a book is not enough. Even doing Media in general is not enough. So at first I wanted to do a magazine, and then what evolved was a more full spectrum concept. Using Capitalism to transform Capitalism. So creating a corporation or company that has as its mission, sort of a media membership organization that has as its model National Geographic or AARP. But the mission is to help ecologically sustainable businesses, ecological entrepreneurship, alternative health, consciousness to create a foundation for a lot new services and good and ideas to get to people's minds and to penetrate deeper into the mainstream. And even those people who are interested in those ideas don't really know what to do in their normal lives. Like, let's say you wanted to buy a skateboard, you'd probably go to a skateboard store and buy a skateboard, but if you were part of Evolver, you'd might find that there is a company that's making very cool skateboards that are environmentally sound and that use sustainable harvested lumber and have done a lot of research to find non-toxic glues. And then there'd be a discount available for those with a membership." I'll be interested to get Drew's take on this. Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:08:02 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#bee55545-71b6-4308-9e65-548c3d9a5ff1 Hoopes 2006-06-27T15:08:02Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#632c1665-979d-42a6-a8b2-b022df0179ac thought readers of this forum would enjoy this interview with me. It needs some copyediting but is otherwise good: http://maybelogic.org/maybequarterly/07/0705PinchbeckInterview.htm Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:43:36 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#632c1665-979d-42a6-a8b2-b022df0179ac Daniel 2006-06-27T14:43:36Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2bdbac2e-a152-4cba-bdad-5d074f55e607 What, you had hope in me? I'm pleasantly shocked! Please read my words carefully. I did not say, nor do I think, that science can eliminate subjective bias. However, it *does* hold this as a goal and constantly strives to do so in a self-critical, self-correcting, fashion. Even particle physicists who are experts in quantum mechanics do this. That's why we have telescopes and know that Neptune and Pluto exist (even if the latter is no longer considered to be a planet). That is far different from accepting absolute truths or surrendering to absolute subjectivity. I have never suggested, nor do I believe, that there is no need for science to change or for paradigms to be overturned. I respectfully submit that I am very different from the Christian you describe in that I do not hold any beliefs to be infallible or reject the constant and vigorous pursuit of new knowledge. I have never suggested, nor do I believe, that people shouldn't use entheogens as a tool to explore their internal realities, gain insights into real problems, or even to discover knowledge that cannot be obtain through rational, empirically based scientific observation. I have never suggested, nor do I believe, that the only knowledge that people can have is of their material existence, or that rational, scientific inquiry is the only path to knowledge. "Psychedelics are tools that reveal hitherto unexamined dimensions of the psyche. When you explore them seriously, they shift your entire ontological framework for understanding the nature of consciousness and reality..." Okay, we agree. Well, sort of. I'm not convinced that "hitherto unexamined" applies. People have known and used entheogens for far longer than they have telescopes. I'm also not convinced that these same dimensions have not also been explored through meditation, yoga, and other traditional techniques. " - just as the telescopes did for the physical cosmos." Well, I don't agree with that at all. I get the sense that you are still implying that there is "a" psychic reality whose existence parallels that of the physical cosmos. I don't buy that, and I do believe that any attempts to define a universal, supernatural reality that is distinct from the natural reality must remain within the realm of faith and belief. That is, at least until we have a far better understanding of the interplay of brain physiology, biochemistry, and the influence of genetics, training, disease, injury, etc. on human consciousness and perception, including dreams, mystical experiences, and so forth. That information will come from careful science, which may yet draw some valuable insights from entheogenic experiences. In the meantime, there is so much more to be learned from a deep and detailed understanding of the variety of human experience in cultures both ancient and modern. I'm deeply skeptical that there will be any shortcuts to this knowledge, especially if certain psychonauts continue to discount and discredit the hard business of science, ignoring real discoveries while at the same time giving new energy to pseudoscientific distractions. Tue, 27 Jun 2006 01:25:34 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2bdbac2e-a152-4cba-bdad-5d074f55e607 Hoopes 2006-06-27T01:25:34Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#dd2afdda-a9f1-4960-95c8-7bdf37e3ec48 You so completely can't get this that i am beginning to lose hope in you. Just please, John, take a step back and think how exactly your attitude and your responses parallel a Renaissance Christian who felt there was no need to change their views on the earth's central place in the solar system because of the work of astronomers using telescopes. They also could not imagine that utilizing a new tool could give anyone a new perspective that would change their underlying attitude toward the cosmos. Psychedelics are tools that reveal hitherto unexamined dimensions of the psyche. When you explore them seriously, they shift your entire ontological framework for understanding the nature of consciousness and reality - just as the telescopes did for the physical cosmos. Once again - for the millionth time in this discussion -- science cannot "eliminate subjective bias" and no longer has that option, as quantum physics has discovered that space and time are relative to the observing consciousness. Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:35:24 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#dd2afdda-a9f1-4960-95c8-7bdf37e3ec48 Daniel 2006-06-27T00:35:24Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#6da2b30c-3919-4b07-88b6-2d5e67cee061 I don't think that equating entheogenic explorations with astronomy is going to persuade me that what you're doing isn't pseudoscience. The issue I have is precisely with the use of subjective visions to "verify," a word derived from "veritas" or truth. Postmodernists deny that absolute truth exists, so perhaps postmodernism doesn't apply. Science strives to eliminate subjective bias, which gets in the way of empirical observations. Flaws in telescopes can be discovered and fixed. How does that work with entheogens? Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:48:23 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#6da2b30c-3919-4b07-88b6-2d5e67cee061 Hoopes 2006-06-26T22:48:23Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d10ffb0d-72b7-441e-8401-e3895265e705 What would you call a phyicist or biologist who wouldn't embrace the Holy Spirit yet claimed for an absolute fact that they knew there was no Creator? One who claimed that all one could know about the origin of the universe and the inception of life was what could be determined through empircal observations and material evidence? I am not denying the utility of entheogens for exploring the realms of inner space. I'm just expressing skepticism that they are the exclusive path to an absolute truth that could recognized by anyone if only they would shed their preconceptions and open their hearts. Before I'm willing to accept that there is any objective reality to a dimension inhabited by fairies and gnomes, or by the Holy Spirit, I would need to falsify the hypothesis that these "true hallucinations" are an artifact of the physiology and biochemistry of the brain. We simply don't have enough information to reject that possibility, whether for entheogenic visions or mystical experiences. I think I recommended this novel to you a while back. Did you ever read it? Lying Awake, by Mark Salzman http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0375706062 Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:32:45 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d10ffb0d-72b7-441e-8401-e3895265e705 Hoopes 2006-06-26T22:32:45Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5b1e6c26-870f-4d87-9443-3f383505690f And what would you think if that astonomer even went out of his way to attack anyone who used a telescope to verify the existence of Pluto and Neptune as presenting a blend of "pseudoscience and postmodernism"? Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:10:54 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5b1e6c26-870f-4d87-9443-3f383505690f Daniel 2006-06-26T22:10:54Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9dd5c164-e89a-49f2-b841-c70a1130749b What would you call an astronomer who wouldn't look into a telescope yet claimed for an absolute fact that they knew there was no Neptune or Pluto? - That all that existed of the solar system was what was visible with the naked eye? Mon, 26 Jun 2006 19:36:49 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9dd5c164-e89a-49f2-b841-c70a1130749b Daniel 2006-06-26T19:36:49Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1adf022b-cf42-4536-b357-1c206f2dcd68 The best Christ Complex is Hong Si Quan, leader of the Taiping Rebellion in the 19th C. China which resulted in 20 million people killed. Hong Si Quan is the name of the hero in the "Deadly Venom" kung fu movies as well. Hong Si Quan believed he was the brother of Christ -- James. Of course I'm a follower of Acharya S. and I highly recommend her book "The Sun Gods," a follow up to her best-seller the Christ Conspiracy. This latest book is way better in my opinion because she does more comparative religion of the solar dynasties. I can assure you that to create the "miracles" of Christ requires yoga abilities -- again that's something not found in the West. Population density is the crucial factor though -- The Secret of the Snake is an online essay I have the connects yoga with western science -- the snake being Quetzalcoatl. http://truthbeknown.com Go on to her "what's new" and you get her blog. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:25:19 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1adf022b-cf42-4536-b357-1c206f2dcd68 drew hempel 2006-06-26T14:25:19Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#727557a7-7031-4648-b586-aa434923fb4c A brief correction. I meant to say, "your insistence upon the *external* or *objective* validity of your subjective experience". For those who don't get the reference to Fichte, here are a couple of sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichte http://www.iep.utm.edu/f/fichtejg.htm Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:59:55 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#727557a7-7031-4648-b586-aa434923fb4c Hoopes 2006-06-26T13:59:55Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f13d9fd9-19b0-4ec1-90e8-95a8835c5baa I commented once before on an Alan Watts lecture tape, how he could always count on a bout between two or more self appointed “guru’s” arguing and throwing thought daggers at one another when confronted with each other. If a dollar were spent for each word John Hoopes, Daniel Pinchbeck, drew hampel, M.A., and others have spent, they would at least be bankrupt. The question would still remain what have we learned from all this spent capital? From my perspective I have remembered the Alan Watts talk; what have the readers of this thread learned? Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:56:23 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f13d9fd9-19b0-4ec1-90e8-95a8835c5baa sidecross 2006-06-26T13:56:23Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9c133f0b-86fd-477d-87aa-357387f1c9d5 Daniel, whether or not I've thought so, I haven't labeled any of your assertions as "utterly stupid." Has it really come to this? "Psychedelics are telescopes for the psycho-cosmos. There are aspects of reality you simply cannot conceive without them." I think you've just answered my question about whether or not you are a zealot. You write, "I feel that ultimately what it comes down to is the Ego wanting to cling to its sense of being the ultimate judge." I think that your insistence upon the validity of your subjective experience is the opposite of recognizing the relative shallowness of Ego. I came across this quotation last night, which merits serious consideration: "The concept of 'truth' as something dependent upon facts largely outside human control has been one of the ways in which philosophy hitherto has inculcated the necessary element of humility. When this check upon pride is removed, a further step is taken on the road towards a certain kind of madness -- the intoxication of power which invaded philosophy with Fichte, and to which modern men, whether philosophers or not, are prone. I am persuaded that this intoxication is the greatest danger of our time, and that any philosophy which, however unintentionally, contributes to it is increasing the danger of vast social disaster." -- Bertrand Russell, "History of Western Philosophy" (1961: 782). Mon, 26 Jun 2006 13:43:50 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9c133f0b-86fd-477d-87aa-357387f1c9d5 Hoopes 2006-06-26T13:43:50Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#32b580ba-1dcb-4655-b07f-b4550050fcb9 hoopes: ""Isn't saying that one cannot judge the psychedelic experience without ever having had one like saying one cannot judge a homicide withough having committed one, that one cannot judge a religion without having practiced it, or that one cannot really judge *any* type of experience (homosexuality, femininity, mystical revelation, oppression, capitalism, cancer, etc.) without having experienced it from the inside out? I don't doubt that there is an element of truth to this (in fact, I'm sure there is) but if we must withhold judgment from any experience we haven't had ourselves, that severely limits the ability of any individual to interpret the human condition. How can you judge evangelical fundamentalists, for example, without actually having felt the love of Jesus? " This is utterly stupid, John. Before there were telescopes, nobody had any idea there was a Pluto or a Neptune. The telescope opened up previously unknown regions of the physical cosmos. Psychedelics are telescopes for the psycho-cosmos. There are aspects of reality you simply cannot conceive without them (unless you are born with native visionary capacities like Rudolf Steiner, get hit by lightning and become a shaman, or undergo some initiation through esoteric practice). I feel that ultimately what it comes down to is the Ego wanting to cling to its sense of being the ultimate judge. A profound psychedelic experience permanently shifts your awareness of the nature of reality - you are forced to recognize the relative shallowness of the Ego, and levels of psychic depth beyond what we conceive of as consciousness. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 12:58:54 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#32b580ba-1dcb-4655-b07f-b4550050fcb9 Daniel 2006-06-26T12:58:54Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5cab0aa7-93dd-4183-b3e9-ec9420083585 I would say only maniac hermits hold onto the truth which is the Cosmic Mother. << another christ complex? cheaper by the dozen i suppose... Mon, 26 Jun 2006 07:18:38 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5cab0aa7-93dd-4183-b3e9-ec9420083585 Anistara 2006-06-26T07:18:38Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#bfd6db41-4fa0-4906-be49-defd636fda99 <<I would say only maniac hermits hold onto the truth which is the Cosmic Mother. Fortunately my office has let me continued working there even though I strive to be one of those maniac hermits. >> Then you miss the point of Tantra, of the Mahasiddhas... there is no need to hold onto anything... because once it has you it has you.. Love Light Bow Mon, 26 Jun 2006 03:42:28 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#bfd6db41-4fa0-4906-be49-defd636fda99 Kundalini 2006-06-26T03:42:28Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#ea884b4e-5b23-48ae-8253-2dd1050b8e3f I used to work for Greenpeace and they sent me to the Pine Ridge reservation where I got to hear Chuck Berry rock out. He had more energy in his dance moves than the whole crowd combined. Pine Ridge is the poorest locale in the U.S. and I saw the massacre site and the last battle site with the U.S. military (against the Indians). I also saw uranium pollution sites posing as creeks. Anyway then Germany shut down the Greenpeace canvass in the U.S.!! Summer 1996. Here's the deal -- there's an academic book called "the Protest Business" published from the U.K. Germany's line was that in Germany environmental activism is volunteer only and "protest businesses" became just a part of the problem. Well my office has done some good work since I've been there but there's definitely some truth to that. We worked closely with Wellstone (who even supported the Gulf War One) and looked what happened to him! Probably from protesting Colombia too much!! I would say only maniac hermits hold onto the truth which is the Cosmic Mother. Fortunately my office has let me continued working there even though I strive to be one of those maniac hermits. Mon, 26 Jun 2006 00:16:51 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#ea884b4e-5b23-48ae-8253-2dd1050b8e3f drew hempel 2006-06-26T00:16:51Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#bc21ee60-5853-45d7-ba0a-71303fc3b642 "Mother Nature can take care of herself so any 'work' is really an absurd concept." Can I quote you the next time I'm asked for a contribution to Greenpeace? Sun, 25 Jun 2006 23:38:05 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#bc21ee60-5853-45d7-ba0a-71303fc3b642 Hoopes 2006-06-25T23:38:05Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f45bc3d5-5170-4e83-9f63-831cdcbd74cd Ah the snide quips have kicked in. How bland it all becomes. In regards to another PM -- the sign is capricorn. Mother Nature can take care of herself so any "work" is really an absurd concept. I've already been arrested 7 times doing civil disobedience, have had some smashing success in radical policy changes and even confronted Al Gore for a half hour in the basement of a VFW about the CIA controlling the drug trade. The Vice President can't even change the stocks of his family trust fund! Neither can the Rockefellers unless they file a lawsuit. So "the system" is in charge and it's not run by humans. Sun, 25 Jun 2006 21:05:52 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f45bc3d5-5170-4e83-9f63-831cdcbd74cd drew hempel 2006-06-25T21:05:52Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d3b16104-b835-4c7c-8244-4b5dd0877639 "I work at an environmental non-profit and my background is in policy." "... I read a book a day and make sure to have butt-breath to keep 'would-bes' off my back." Does that explain why you have so much time on your hands? Given the sad state of the environment, I think we'd all be better off if you'd get back to work and stay focused! Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:55:07 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d3b16104-b835-4c7c-8244-4b5dd0877639 Hoopes 2006-06-25T19:55:07Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#ea5bd73c-8254-4a80-abc2-17afaa1627dc For God so loved the World He never sent an intellectual. Sun, 25 Jun 2006 18:50:57 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#ea5bd73c-8254-4a80-abc2-17afaa1627dc $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-25T18:50:57Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#69b063ed-436b-46ea-a1fe-b338a534d22a Another great and secretive post-modern science book is "The Hidden Universe" by extragalactic astronomer Michael Disney. Disney zeroes in on "the iceberg effect" -- that galaxies are actually 4-dimensional black holes of which we can only see the tip of the iceberg. You'll find only one reference to "the iceberg effect" in astronomy science literature on Web of Science. But the "auger effect" definitely makes spectoscropy suspect -- these macro quantum chaos problems. How gravity bends light relies on CCD -- coupled charge devices for the new astronomy but all this silica dependence is just a reflection of the true silica prisms in our brains as per mad cow disease and the prion-nanotech revolution. Red Crystal indeed. I even asked Brian Greene (of superstring fame) about the possibility of a galactic alignment causing a catastrophe on earth and he said it's have to be a macro-effect like a black hole, because gravity waves are too weak. Well bring on the "Iceberg effect"!! Let's convert earth to silica by dumping carbon into the air and see how all those British scientists hang on when the iceberg black holes kick in. drew hempel, M.A. Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:44:41 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#69b063ed-436b-46ea-a1fe-b338a534d22a drew hempel 2006-06-25T15:44:41Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#908af3ce-8016-4ab7-9a7c-ec5bc46826c1 OK Hoopes -- a good source for the Frolich effect (and other crucial "science" goods) is professor Cairns-Smith's recent book "Evoling the Mind" -- he's a natural scientist who had some revolutionary impact by arguing life is based on crystalization -- http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521637554/qid=1151240766/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-2895609-8770201?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 Anyway should I mention the new "Red Crystal" symbol of the Red Cross. Pretty weird. Now you ask "what the hell are you talking about?" Well too me that states: I don't want to admit I don't know and I don't want to look it up. Just google "quasi-telepathy" and "quantum electronics" but the best tool is to go to an academic library and use I.S.I. Web of Science citation index. Your research topic sounds fascinating but hopelessly reductionist. Macro quantum chaos is based on looking at the big picture even still the technology of that cutting edge discipline (featured in the New Scientist by Mark Buchanan, for example) is apocalyptic. I work at an environmental non-profit and my background is in policy. I met with the lawyer that runs the U of MInnesota for over a year for nine meetings. I know what oversees "science" and it's totally corrupt!! For example most of the Manhattan project scientists did not even know what their overall goal was and Oppenheimer was told he wouldn't be tortured since he lives in a democracy. Yet when he was commanded to give the name of who wanted to share his research with the Commies that professor was fired without being told why. Of course the irony being a democracy bent on buidling apocalyptic weapons! Have you seen the recent documentary "Why We Fight?" How many Noam Chomsky books have you read? You seem to be something of a naive socialite while I read a book a day and make sure to have butt-breath to keep "would-bes" off my back. haha. Hope you enjoy my ribald sense of humor. Read Professor H.M. Collin's unknown classic "Changing Order" -- that will give you a low-down on "postmodern science" as physics. Sun, 25 Jun 2006 13:14:53 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#908af3ce-8016-4ab7-9a7c-ec5bc46826c1 drew hempel 2006-06-25T13:14:53Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2d0516c0-e53f-40fc-a830-b273b237bd70 ### but about pseudoscience and postmodernism in health sciences (nursing in particular, with an emphasis on Therapeutic Touch ### Hoopes. Here is one guy who's studying nurserie, and also has get involved into Reiki. All that I can say is: try it, before getting someone's prejudices as valid just because they're on intellectual mainstream. Also, i know MD here that, due to the conventions, don't apply the reiki thing with patients -- but does it to his family oftenly. Sun, 25 Jun 2006 07:24:03 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2d0516c0-e53f-40fc-a830-b273b237bd70 Pepin3Leches 2006-06-25T07:24:03Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2df14521-22d4-4c32-bc8d-82a3722615a6 <<But that is more common in people who have these experiences without entheogens. >> This seems a rather broad generalization, so i will pipe up for the folks who have decided on the Master/ master meditation route... Every Master i have studied with has said that what you'see' dimensionally is colored by your life experience, so any truth is subjective. They only thing that all Masteres seem to absolutely agree on is Endless Timeless Light. The Way to which you arrive to it and the dimensions in between well that is another story. Which is why they take great pains to get students familiar with energy. It is easier to see/read or rather feel energy then it is to try and understand a graphical representation. So whenever i go through a dimensional experience, when i go over what was gained, i go over the energies i felt to confirm if they correspond to the visuals, sometimes it appears 'literal' and sometimes i am just left scratching my head and asking myself what is the matter with my brain? Love Light Bow Sun, 25 Jun 2006 07:12:22 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#2df14521-22d4-4c32-bc8d-82a3722615a6 Kundalini 2006-06-25T07:12:22Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#febeb912-1564-4685-8de2-c12dddb2b437 I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Sokal misunderstands Lacan, but that wouldn't necessarily invalidate his "whole schtick". Nor does it prove that Sokal doesn't understand postmodernism. The latter is a big grab-bag of stuff, some good and some not so good. By the way, I haven't said I'm opposed to postmodernism, just pseudoscience. There has been quite a bit of postmodernism in contemporary archaeology, often under the rubric of "post-processual archaeology": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-processualism Some of my own work has been referred to as "post-processual", since I've been increasingly interested in the symbolic meaning of things like pottery and goldwork. My most current work is an attempt to operationalize concepts of "sorcery" in the context of non-biomedical models of the diagnosis and treatment of disease and interpretations of Precolumbian art. Sokal's chapter, which I do think will interest you, also discusses Meera Nanda's recent book "Prophets Facing Backwards: Postmodern Critiques of Science and Hindu Nationalism in India", which may also be of interest to you. Sun, 25 Jun 2006 03:55:46 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#febeb912-1564-4685-8de2-c12dddb2b437 Hoopes 2006-06-25T03:55:46Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#dc45041c-7338-4258-a153-cfc922c3d524 Hi Drew, I really appreciate your reading recommendations. As an academic archaeologist, I already feel as if I'm behind the eight ball when it comes to theory in anthropology (though I try to do my best, both to figure it out and to make my own modest contributions). The new chapter that I recommended by Sokal (in "Fantastic Archaeologies") is one I'd like to get your take on. (Message me with your snail mail address.) It's not really about archaeology at all, but about pseudoscience and postmodernism in health sciences (nursing in particular, with an emphasis on Therapeutic Touch). I have a feeling it touches on some of your own interests. Sokal quotes and cites Collins in his introductory remarks. I suspect Sokal, as a physicist, has a pretty good take on quantum mechanics, but I could be wrong. When I googled on "Frolich effect," the only hit I got was your comment on Organic Body Origami: http://drewhempel.gnn.tv/?page=3 Others should be advised that the spelling "Fröhlich effect" will produce better results, but even that didn't produce much insight into "biological superconductivity through resonance". You write, "It's easy to be mean and dupe people which is all that Sokal is about." I don't get that from what I just read. I suppose the "Sokal Affair" could be interpreted by some as "mean", but others saw it as being very much in the spirit of altruistic pranksterism. One could also make the argument, as he convincingly does in his chapter on pseudoscience and postmodernism, that people are duped by such phrases as "synchronicities of consciousness and the new 'quasi-telepathy' of quantum electronics" or the "asymmetric resonance of complimentary opposites." What in the world are you talking about? I'd be the last to disagree that scientists often do really stupid things, such as Operation Argus and Project Starfish Prime, but there are plenty of people who are also opposed to human cloning and stem cell research. I don't think any of these make science "nihilistic". There is plenty of science that is inspired by various kinds of faith, which could be described as the opposite of nihilism. I've always thought that anthropology, in particular, is Utopian. Sun, 25 Jun 2006 03:40:45 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#dc45041c-7338-4258-a153-cfc922c3d524 Hoopes 2006-06-25T03:40:45Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#79bce09e-8a29-43e8-a014-2c62f479e31e Hoopes -- you can't disprove a negative and that's why Sokal's whole schtick against postmodernism is not valid. professor emeritus Rosen's new book details how Sokal misunderstands Lacan -- a postmodern Freudian linguist. Aren't you an archaeologist? Why not read "Origins of Agriculture and the Birth of the Gods" -- (Cambridge U Press, 2000) -- that details "the symbolic revolution" at 10,000 BCE -- the very same revolution which postmodernism is focused on. professor Harry M. Collin discusses how a negative proof has no validity unless there is technology involved -- see his academic essay "from gold to alchemy." Professor Isabelle Stenger makes them same point about placebos and Mesmerism -- she co-wrote the book with Nobel scientist Ilya Priogene -- a macro quantum chaos founder. http://drewhempel.gnn.tv. for more details. Sat, 24 Jun 2006 15:57:17 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#79bce09e-8a29-43e8-a014-2c62f479e31e drew hempel 2006-06-24T15:57:17Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#fb9d2b9d-dba7-49dd-acc3-7f975f7debca Hoopes -- seriously you need to get on the fast track -- check out macro quantum chaos science since that's the cutting-edge research at the top military science think tanks. Read "Fire in the Mind" by George Johnson and "One True platonic Heaven" by John Casti and professor Steve Strogatz' best-seller "sync" (2003). It's easy to be mean and dupe people which is all that Sokal is about. As John Horgan (editor of Scientific American) writes in "The End of Science" -- no one understands how quantum mechanics works. But, as per the Frolich Effect (biological superconductivity through resonance), the "macro quantum Heisenberg effect" is real. This does create synchronicities of consciousness and the new "quasi-telepathy" of quantum electronics. Real signals go beyond spacetime using group wave resonance based on de Broglie's "pilot wave." Quantum mechanics relies on logarithmic statistics while non-western magic relies on asymmetric resonance of complimentary opposites (before the Pythagorean Theorem). Anti-matter weapons are being created based on positronium research and mini-black holes. Also the new Hadron accelerator experiments will be creating black holes. No one knows what can happen with synthetic black holes but astronomy professor Timothy Ferris admits there is a slight chance the whole earth could get vaporized. Ferris states that well if it happens we won't know it happened so it doesn't matter. The "chance" of it happening is really unknown -- as James Blodgett has documented. That is a good insight into the nihilism behind science and the absurdity behind science. Also I recommend reading professor Harry M. Collin's philsophy of science "Golem" series published by Cambridge U Press and M.I.T. -- he's a much better take on postmodernism than Sokal. good luck. drew hempel, M.A. Sat, 24 Jun 2006 14:00:01 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#fb9d2b9d-dba7-49dd-acc3-7f975f7debca drew hempel 2006-06-24T14:00:01Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#796cdc3b-6ee2-48b0-be2e-be97ec5a61b6 Mon Dieu! Encroyable! This is a good example of what my friend used to call "Buttflappin'" Almost reads like Gurdjieff's Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson! id Sat, 24 Jun 2006 08:45:47 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#796cdc3b-6ee2-48b0-be2e-be97ec5a61b6 il divino 2006-06-24T08:45:47Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a1cf0c37-5867-4c18-b61d-2a42eaa83481 Great post, gayle! Very well put. Hoopes....what is "real"?...what do you consider to be real and what not? And who is the judge? Your five senses?...do they determine what reality is real or not, or is there more to reality than what your five senses can grasp? Have you ever questioned that? Do you think you are real? Who is this "you" or "I"? Prove to me that you exist! I really wonder what and who determnines what is real and what not? Science?.....First prove me that Science is real.....so where do we start? Out of my onw experinces, this 3D "material" world is as real or as an illusion as any other reality, physical or non-physical. There are no limits really when you think about it. So before we start getting into debates of what you call Pseudo-Science vs. "real" Science. Prove the "realness" of the science you "believe" in....you see?.......The majority of humanity lives according to an agreed-upon sytem and follows collective aggreements about what is supposed to be real or not, as told by mainstream science, the "Thought Police" of Academia, the "elected" Governments and the Seeple just follow without questioning. And so humanity has constructed a "prision" where one decorates the prision walls with beliefs and changing them at times if one doesn't suit anymore, thinking that this will bring the desired change or choosing a different leader, I mean puppet and so on.....but it's all just like changing the tapestry and one is still inside the prison of the "Aggreed-upon-existing-Reality". Entheogens help to break through the prison wall, walk over the hill , to that lake, to.........I like these excusrsions. One learns a lot when traveling. :-) Sat, 24 Jun 2006 06:08:11 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a1cf0c37-5867-4c18-b61d-2a42eaa83481 $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-24T06:08:11Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#99ca46c3-0c0b-41f6-885b-fc784836038b Okay, whatever. A link to their distributor would be helpful: http://twisted.co.uk/home As well as: http://shpongle.tribe.net Shpongle *is* divine. Sat, 24 Jun 2006 00:02:03 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#99ca46c3-0c0b-41f6-885b-fc784836038b Hoopes 2006-06-24T00:02:03Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#6fa86675-b105-477d-826d-5192f2adbaee "...deep conceptual shifts within twentieth-century science have undermined this Cartesian-Newtonian metaphysics; revisionist studies in the history and philosophy of science have cast further doubt on its credibility; and, most recently, feminist and poststructuralist critiques have demystified the substantive content of mainstream Western scientific practice, revealing the ideology of domination concealed behind the façade of 'objectivity'. It has thus become increasingly apparent that physical 'reality', no less than social 'reality', is at bottom a social and linguistic construct; that scientific 'knowledge', far from being objective, reflects and encodes the dominant ideologies and power relations of the culture that produced it; that the truth claims of science are inherently theory-laden and self-referential; and consequently, that the discourse of the scientific community, for all its undeniable value, cannot assert a privileged epistemological status with respect to counter-hegemonic narratives emanating from dissident or marginalized communities. These themes can be traced, despite some differences of emphasis, in Aronowitz's analysis of the cultural fabric that produced quantum mechanics; in Ross' discussion of oppositional discourses in post-quantum science; in Irigaray's and Hayles' exegeses of gender encoding in fluid mechanics; and in Harding's comprehensive critique of the gender ideology underlying the natural sciences in general and physics in particular" (Sokal 1996: 217). Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:56:47 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#6fa86675-b105-477d-826d-5192f2adbaee Hoopes 2006-06-23T23:56:47Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a20eacb0-2bf7-42a0-b8cd-b3ed29595f8a these types of experiences can also be accessed via meditation... shrooms aren't everyones cup of tea... <<grin> love light bow Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:39:45 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a20eacb0-2bf7-42a0-b8cd-b3ed29595f8a Kundalini 2006-06-23T23:39:45Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#bc852786-141b-4fbc-91d4-8bb451bd73bf Excuse me, thats SIMON Posford, not Brian, and Raja Ram and Simon together are called "SHPONGLE" I saw Simon do a dj set in SF last April. I dropped ACID man, LSD-25 and danced to THE MOST PSYCHEDELIC music today, and shook hands with him afterward. This guy is off the fucking hook, and I definitely want people to know who Shpongle (and Simon's earlier work known as Hallucinogen) is. Absolutely Incredible! Later, il Divino Fri, 23 Jun 2006 23:38:53 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#bc852786-141b-4fbc-91d4-8bb451bd73bf il divino 2006-06-23T23:38:53Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5fdb8eba-98fa-421a-9bf8-9b1683eecd09 Is that link some kind of postmodern kink? Fri, 23 Jun 2006 22:52:41 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5fdb8eba-98fa-421a-9bf8-9b1683eecd09 Hoopes 2006-06-23T22:52:41Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#93bfd3a8-834c-45e0-ad6f-8b89131fcd02 Well, he understands it better than I do! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_D._Sokal I thought the "Sokal Affair" was a brilliant piece of intellectual hijinx: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_Affair "Transgressing the Boundaries" should be required reading for everyone on this thread: http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html Fri, 23 Jun 2006 22:48:26 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#93bfd3a8-834c-45e0-ad6f-8b89131fcd02 Hoopes 2006-06-23T22:48:26Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#aaaac534-bc7e-4a1c-88d8-ae8cba74364e "All that entheogenic/psychedelic explorers would agree on as 'real' is that there is much more to reality than what is physical and measurable by the scientific method." I'd be cool with that, but your assertion that it's "all" that Daniel agrees on hasn't been my impression. "And when I asked you to come up with an example of Daniel proclaiming some 'absolute truth,' that was all that you could come up with." It's reasonable for you to be impatient, but at present my copies of BOtH and 2012 are busy infecting other consciousnesses. I promise I'll get back to this issue when I've got one or the other book in my lap again. Until then, you'll just have to wait. Sorry. Fri, 23 Jun 2006 22:43:33 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#aaaac534-bc7e-4a1c-88d8-ae8cba74364e Hoopes 2006-06-23T22:43:33Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1ec67d5b-6d4c-473f-9dbf-971c1b63942a Entheogens, kundalini, ego death, ensuing lonliness, the rebirth of duality leading to the return to the shared agreement and new life are all best explored here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0udP-LzDhp8 Fri, 23 Jun 2006 21:01:59 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1ec67d5b-6d4c-473f-9dbf-971c1b63942a Chontler 2006-06-23T21:01:59Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d2135ac2-7746-402e-9819-6cd9066f78d1 http://www.ihc.ucsb.edu/events/event_files/past/_fall2002/yang/index.html Sokal doesn't understand postmodernism -- just read professor emeritus Steven M. Rosen's new book "Topologies of the Flesh" -- but the above link should be a helpful start. Fri, 23 Jun 2006 19:58:27 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d2135ac2-7746-402e-9819-6cd9066f78d1 drew hempel 2006-06-23T19:58:27Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e5ef2670-da5c-45de-8d65-6688c84919c5 <<A psychedelic experience is "in fact, just learned and not necessarily true".>> No, experiences are experienced. =Interpretations= of the experience, "belief" systems, come out of what is or has been learned. "Real" really is a word with no meaning in reference to psychedelic experience. People who come out of a literalistic culture often question early on in their psychedelic explorations if what they experience is "real" or not. All that entheogenic/psychedelic explorers would agree on as "real" is that there is much more to reality than what is physical and measurable by the scientific method. (The consistency of this one perception should constitute evidence that this is something worth investigating; whereas there is no evidence at all for the materialist belief system that the universe =is= limited to what can be measured scientifically, and Occam's Razor supports the entheogenist position.) And when I asked you to come up with an example of Daniel proclaiming some "absolute truth," that was all that you could come up with. Of course there are other dimensions. Have you ever read "Flatland"? That's a story about entheogenic exploration. Fri, 23 Jun 2006 18:04:22 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e5ef2670-da5c-45de-8d65-6688c84919c5 gayle 2006-06-23T18:04:22Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#6f5fc0e1-25f4-48f7-bbdf-974d76897444 Okay, we're in agreement. My reaction to both of Daniel's books, BOtH as well as "2012," is that he suggests (and even seems to claim, altough his language gets frustratingly fuzzy) that the alternative dimension he's discovered through his personal experiences is *real* (in Bill Hicks' terminology). A psychedelic experience is "in fact, just learned and not necessarily true". Fri, 23 Jun 2006 16:43:45 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#6f5fc0e1-25f4-48f7-bbdf-974d76897444 Hoopes 2006-06-23T16:43:45Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#ad92d727-5a25-4b8a-95ff-7301f22da3b7 <<"Your beliefs, they’re just that, they’re how your were taught and raised. That doesn’t make them *real*. That’s why I always recommend a psychedelic experience, because it does make you realize everything you’ve learned is, in fact, just learned and not necessarily true." Thanks so much for this! ... Just because entheogens may cause you to have *different* beliefs doesn't make those *real* either. >> I mean like ... DUH. Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:58:37 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#ad92d727-5a25-4b8a-95ff-7301f22da3b7 gayle 2006-06-23T15:58:37Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f732d5c5-fcac-4865-b8a6-eb4c946fe358 "Isn't saying that one cannot judge the psychedelic experience without ever having had one like saying one cannot judge a homicide withough having committed one, that one cannot judge a religion without having practiced it, or that one cannot really judge *any* type of experience (homosexuality, femininity, mystical revelation, oppression, capitalism, cancer, etc.) without having experienced it from the inside out? I don't doubt that there is an element of truth to this (in fact, I'm sure there is) but if we must withhold judgment from any experience we haven't had ourselves, that severely limits the ability of any individual to interpret the human condition. How can you judge evangelical fundamentalists, for example, without actually having felt the love of Jesus? " You can judge the EFFECTS of the behavior. But you can't have any idea of the EXPERIENCE without having experienced something to compare it to. How is this not obvious? You can punish the murderer or evaluate the social and psychological effects of the religion. But that is different from knowing what the murderer's internal experience was or what it feels like to practice a particular religion -- more than that, what it feels like to see the world through that religion's eyes. Of course the evangelists are right when they say that you can't know the taste of their orange without tasting it. Do YOU have any idea what it feels like to experience the redeeming love of Jesus and a personal relationship with Christ? I do. You see, taking me as representing the "enthogen" side in this discussion, I know that I can enter their mode of consciousness freely and fully experience it, without having to stay in it. I will bet -- tell me if this is not correct -- the reason that you do not open your heart to Jesus is because you feel it will be permanent, that you will not be able to turn off the experience when you need to. But entheogens teach you how to navigate different modes of consciousness freely. I can totally enter the evangelist mindset and I was not raised around them and never have been tempted to be one. I have only been inside an evangelistic church twice in my life. I don't find the evangelist mindset to be a drug that I enjoy, yet I do understand how euphoric it can make you and how addictive it can be. Yes, you can compare the evangelist mindset to a drug, but it is like a mood-altering drug, a drug whose purpose is to make you "high." Evangelistic mindset is a euphoriant, and a highly addictive one, one that comes packaged with the message "This is the ONLY way you can get high like this, and if you don't do what I tell you to, this high will be taken away from you." Now, luckily, as an explorer of consciousness, I know that that is not true. And the evangelistic high feels like it is mixed with toxins. It feels like nitrous oxide that has been cut with carbon monoxide. Yeah! Just like that. High, but a little nauseated, and not the good kind of nausea you get from Ayahuasca, either. Entheogens are not about getting high, although some do produce euphoria as a fringe benefit. Entheogens are purposed to explore consciousness. They enable you to know that you can try on all kinds of different modes and frameworks of consciousness, all different kinds of frameworks of interpretation, without necessarily committing to any particular interpretation. You can try on belief systems like clothes and wear them fully as long as they work, and can change belief systems when you need to. It has nothing to do with believing anything is "real." "Real" is just not a term that psychedelic explorers use. "Real" is a meaningless term, when you are talking about psychedelic realms. Culturally, if you want to study the effects of entheogens in the culture, you would really have to be able to experience the pre-LSD culture of the 1950s to grasp the full effect entheogens have had on the group mind. Aside from the fact that personal computers were developed by acidheads, and the internet by an unlikely alliance of the military and acidheads, culturally speaking, entheogens have had a lot to do with the movement toward cultural relativism, and the current within the New Age movement that says all beliefs are equal, nobody's is better than anyone else's. So you have been trying to equate things that are on diametrically opposite poles -- on one end of the pole, the rigid literalism of the evangelists and their insistence that their beliefs are "real" and exist independent from them, and on the other end of the pole, the entheogenic pole, which at its extreme makes all beliefs equal. And "beliefs," actually, irrelevant. Entheogenic exploration is about experience, not beliefs. People share experiences, they don't need to share beliefs. Some people from literalistic backgrounds can be inclined to take some of their entheogen-like experiences literally, at first. But that is more common in people who have these experiences without entheogens. Entheogens "turn up the volume" on what is really going on in the depths of your consciousness, and on your connection with the One Consciousness. Entheogens are in the same general category of experience as meditation, and the relative merits of entheogens vs meditation (and whether entheogens are an illegitimate shortcut to those states, or whether they are really the same states, etc) is a perennial debate. It is the dimensions you can access through meditation, fasting, sleep deprivation, etc., on which entheogens "turn up the volume" on -- not literalistic religious experiences. Relativism can be carried to extremes as well. You could and should be critiquing entheogenic exploration for its own pitfalls -- entheogenists can be ungrounded, for example. But it is ludicrous to attribute the pitfalls of religious literalism to entheogenic exploration. Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:55:56 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f732d5c5-fcac-4865-b8a6-eb4c946fe358 gayle 2006-06-23T15:55:56Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#62164b4e-ea7c-401c-bb54-1d05140c630f "Just because entheogens may cause you to have *different* beliefs doesn't make those *real* either. " No, Hoopes.......entheogens, don't cause me to have any beliefs, just experiences. Quite the opposite actually, they tend to destroy beliefs accumualted through "official culture", or what one "thinks" to be true (who is the "one" thinking and who is teh "I"?)........if you know the difference between belief and experience.......and as I said over and over....if you never had a full blown psychedelic experience you have no idea what I'm talking about.......no matter how you want to turn and twist it.......no come on and get yourself some shrooms!!...they'll be good for you......lol!.........and then we'll talk again....otherwise we'll just go in circles. Ego-death is a good thing every once in a while. Fri, 23 Jun 2006 15:38:07 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#62164b4e-ea7c-401c-bb54-1d05140c630f $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-23T15:38:07Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#0c9449eb-b34a-45e5-a91a-2e9a54cd2827 "Your beliefs, they’re just that, they’re how your were taught and raised. That doesn’t make them *real*. That’s why I always recommend a psychedelic experience, because it does make you realize everything you’ve learned is, in fact, just learned and not necessarily true." Thanks so much for this! Bill Hicks is a genius, and I've enjoyed these words from "Rant in E Minor" many times. Bill's message is the same one I've been repeating here. Just because entheogens may cause you to have *different* beliefs doesn't make those *real* either. This is a very nice downtempo mix. Just last night, right before you posted this, I listening to Brian Posford and Raja Ram's "Tales of the Inexpressible," with samples of Terence McKenna. There's more Terence on their followup album "Nothing Lasts... But Nothing is Lost," whose title comes from one of his talks. Fri, 23 Jun 2006 14:56:51 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#0c9449eb-b34a-45e5-a91a-2e9a54cd2827 Hoopes 2006-06-23T14:56:51Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a4fad95a-1b04-49b4-8cd0-c0eafb89ab09 Star, What do you mean by empath? What's exactly the experience of an empath? Fri, 23 Jun 2006 07:17:46 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a4fad95a-1b04-49b4-8cd0-c0eafb89ab09 Pepin3Leches 2006-06-23T07:17:46Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#0df4794a-0d87-4175-ab38-fb5caca51d1b I don't know star, to really KNOW what's to kill, You have TO KILL.You might imagine how it would be and feel that it is "wrong" and show empathy for the killer and the killed but to really KNOW the expereince of having killed someone, one has to kill and it's for everyone different. Some even seem to enjoy it, somne do it in fear, some in anger, others in envy......etc. I'm using "Killing" here just as an exmple as for anything else. And Hoopes....." that one cannot really judge *any* type of experience (homosexuality, femininity, mystical revelation, oppression, capitalism, cancer, etc.) without having experienced it from the inside out?" Exactly, you got it...and everyone experiences it differently.........in particular the psychedelic experience where a shift of consciousness happens and one enters realities which cannot be possible completely understood by linear thought, where the ego (the main driver of this discussion-forum for everyone on here) becomes anihilated....... No matter how much Intellectual skeptism and Arguments you might find to suppert your claim.......you will not understand the psychedelic experience until you had on. It's quite simple as that, I think, and nothing offensive either. it's just as it is. You're ego can defend it as much as it wants, becasue the ego is obviously afraid of the full blown psychedelic experience, since it means its certain death........I feel it everytime before I take the joureny...and my ego inteferes with all kinds of fear-based thoughts...........it's good to realize that the ego is norhing real and fears are not real either...and death....well..doesn't really exist either when looking at it a bit deeper.........and still the ego is afraid.........of what? In regards to... "I challenge each and every participant on this thread to take a break from the word thing and contribute something creative to the discussion in the way of original images, sounds, and other experiences. You can do it with something as simple as a photo posted to this Tribe or a link to an MP3 or video file you've recorded." Here a mix I made last year featuring the late Comedian Bill Hicks. For you especially, Hoopes.......listen to the last looped words of good ol' Bill. Enjoy.! .....get good sepakers (-: http://www.revolvemusic.com/hicks_huva.mp3 Fri, 23 Jun 2006 05:20:53 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#0df4794a-0d87-4175-ab38-fb5caca51d1b $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-23T05:20:53Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7c11640e-3561-41d9-8bb9-2e6178749b74 In fact, here's a novel that may be just the thing for Daniel's summer reading list: Move Under Ground, by Nick Mamatas http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1892389916 "The American dream reveals itself to be a Lovecraftian nightmare in Mamatas's audacious first novel, set in the early 1960s, which goes on the road with Kerouac, Cassaday and Cthulhu. Jack Kerouac is in California when he receives cryptic letters from soulmate and muse Neal Cassaday, whose hallucinatory ramblings evoke 'the Dark Dreamer' (aka Cthulhu), the Lovecraftian deity of cosmic entropy whom Jack blames for the era's stultifying forces of conformity, commercialism and complacency. After Jack rescues Neal from his new life as a gas station owner in Nevada, the two reverse the steps of their earlier westward trek, fighting skirmishes with 'the Cult of Utter Normalcy' that serves the god, en route to a climactic showdown in New York City. The book has no more plot than Kerouac's On the Road, but the author makes Jack and Neal's surreal adventures in middle America seem the perfect expression of Lovecraft's mind-blasting horrors. He gives quaint cameos to Allen Ginsburg as a sewer-trolling prophet and William S. Burroughs as a god-swatting exterminator extraordinaire. He also manages a credible pastiche of Kerouac's visionary prose, as in this description of Manhattan: 'The heart of the world, concrete and fleshy, green money pouring in and out from every corner of earth through arteries of commerce and culture, all choked up and poisoned with the madness of dead gods' dreams.' Though Lovecraft reduxes are common in horror, few show the wit and energy of this original effort." Fri, 23 Jun 2006 04:15:57 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7c11640e-3561-41d9-8bb9-2e6178749b74 Hoopes 2006-06-23T04:15:57Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#8cebb65e-8f65-4b07-8caa-a9e0f4c83cf1 Pepin you wrote: "Yes, learning about second hand experiences is useful, and i don't have anything against it. But one thing is true. For really knowing what's having a cancer, you have to pass it. For really knowing what's to kill, you have to kill. That's the way it is." That is not really true when you are an empath. Fri, 23 Jun 2006 04:12:15 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#8cebb65e-8f65-4b07-8caa-a9e0f4c83cf1 Lana 2006-06-23T04:12:15Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9d3d85aa-9279-463c-beeb-0a91e2e7ae22 heh heh heh. hey, you can get Shermer's book in audio format on torrent. Something I did from here. http://www.mininova.org/get/177680 my preferred torrent client being utorrent: http://utorrent.com/ The guys principles of skepticism are sound enough. Unfortunately, it seems to me like his examples are a bit extreme and does him no favours. I'm only half way at the mo, but it is nice to be read to... Thu, 22 Jun 2006 22:24:03 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9d3d85aa-9279-463c-beeb-0a91e2e7ae22 Chontler 2006-06-22T22:24:03Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#fe21cbf6-bcc2-49ea-842e-aca203a52ace Hey Hoopes. I thought about dreams like you. This was until i had a very lucid salvia trip in wich i saw the future ... and, well: that future in fact happened. So, what for you is speculation, for me is a reality. And i have tested it empirically, believe me. Yes, learning about second hand experiences is useful, and i don't have anything against it. But one thing is true. For really knowing what's having a cancer, you have to pass it. For really knowing what's to kill, you have to kill. That's the way it is. Thu, 22 Jun 2006 20:52:10 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#fe21cbf6-bcc2-49ea-842e-aca203a52ace Pepin3Leches 2006-06-22T20:52:10Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#67b2ebed-95ee-4a83-a7ec-b4b2e890393d An excellent essay that covers precisely many of the issues we've been discussing here, and also articulates my own ideas more completely than I've been able to express them so far, is the chapter: "Pseudoscience and Postmodernism: Antagonists or Fellow Travelers?" by Alan D. Sokal in the newbook "Archaeological Fantasies" (Garrett Fagan, ed.) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0415305934 I think "2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl" and Daniel's ongoing comments provide a good example of the blending of pseudoscience and postmodernism. Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:50:17 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#67b2ebed-95ee-4a83-a7ec-b4b2e890393d Hoopes 2006-06-22T17:50:17Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d731ef95-91f9-4194-85c7-a7acad7c9cf6 Isn't saying that one cannot judge the psychedelic experience without ever having had one like saying one cannot judge a homicide withough having committed one, that one cannot judge a religion without having practiced it, or that one cannot really judge *any* type of experience (homosexuality, femininity, mystical revelation, oppression, capitalism, cancer, etc.) without having experienced it from the inside out? I don't doubt that there is an element of truth to this (in fact, I'm sure there is) but if we must withhold judgment from any experience we haven't had ourselves, that severely limits the ability of any individual to interpret the human condition. How can you judge evangelical fundamentalists, for example, without actually having felt the love of Jesus? "I'm not intersted in beliefs or faith. All I go by is my own research in regards of these topics (for example alien abduction and crop circles) and my own expereinces of mind expansion through the help of these tools provided by nature." Okay, but I contend that the issue of beliefs and faith are central to knowing whether the experiences of mind expansion can provide real knowledge about these topics in a fashion different from other ways of getting it. My own feeling is that hallucinations (like dreams) are a valuable source of hypotheses to be tested against empirical information. Knowlege of the natural world that cannot be empirically confirmed remains in the realm of speculation or (if it is considered "real" knowledge) that of belief and faith. Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:41:53 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d731ef95-91f9-4194-85c7-a7acad7c9cf6 Hoopes 2006-06-22T17:41:53Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#268286e6-933e-4c8a-850d-37a05ebb7382 Of course, you know what this means: 2012 is really about the return of the Great Old Ones. Thu, 22 Jun 2006 17:09:19 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#268286e6-933e-4c8a-850d-37a05ebb7382 Hoopes 2006-06-22T17:09:19Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e61d4e55-2d1e-441e-90f4-985316967c23 "I find it odd how strenuously you seem to need to 'convince' others (such as Hoopes) or to 'prove' your own truths and 'disprove' others' opinions.." I'm not trying to convince anyone about anything or prove my own truths, even if it may come across like that. In regards to Hoopes, as I mentioned above, I resepect him very much and that is the reason why I become slightly irritated when I sense some sort of over-skeptism at the borderline of denial. I also have a thing for people who judge the psychedleic experience without ever having had one. It just doesn't make any sense. Also don't forget, Ferrara, I too have my own ego and defense mechanisms, however I try to be as as much as aware of them as possible. More than disaproving others, I'd like to point point out that there is more to the story and other ways to perceive it. Thu, 22 Jun 2006 16:14:26 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e61d4e55-2d1e-441e-90f4-985316967c23 $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-22T16:14:26Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#831c28db-7296-4d19-aeb9-0227e1709319 "Skepticism is the healthy diet of a self-critical mind and won't be threatened by the defence of the paranormal. Skeptics eventually poop truth." ...and sometimed Skeptics morph into complete denial. Thu, 22 Jun 2006 16:07:13 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#831c28db-7296-4d19-aeb9-0227e1709319 $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-22T16:07:13Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#105e30a6-4457-4031-8719-7779c37accdb "Stubbornness? With no basis?" I was talking in particular about the crop circle phenomena. Have you done any deeper reaerch into it or re you really just satisfied with the explaation of what the mainstream media has put on the plate? "I've gotten the same comments from evangelical, fundamentalist Christians who've tried to persuade me that all I need to do to receive God's grace is to open my heart and ask Jesus to be my personal Lord and Savior. That's one of the few oranges I haven't tried. I'm not convinced I should taste that one, either. That doesn't mean that I in any way reject the idea that it works for a lot of people. " WOHA!!!..Easy here I'm not selling you any belief system. I'm simply pointing out that you cannot judge the psychedelic experience without aver having had on. I'm not asking you to believe in any form of book or persuade you to belive anything. I'm talking about connecting to nature and deeper aspects of reality through means which the indigenous people of this planet have uses for thousands of years. "I have a lot of respect for you, Bernhard. Why is my modestly informed skepticism so disappointing to you?' Thanks you, I have respect for you as well and that's why I'm getting upset to see that some of your skeptisim has morphed into denial. It seems very obvious to me. For the sake of evolution we need to question our so holy fixed beliefs. Psychedelics tend to help to break these unconstructive patterns. That was just my point out of my own experience. Please don't compare the psychedelic experience to someone trying to convince you about Jesus and his boys...ppppplease! I'm not intersted in beliefs or faith. All I go by is my own research in regards of these topics (for example alien abduction and crop circles) and my own expereinces of mind expansion through the help of these tools provided by nature. Thu, 22 Jun 2006 16:03:00 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#105e30a6-4457-4031-8719-7779c37accdb $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-22T16:03:00Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#af12091a-e335-47b9-bf1a-a7419af89d76 The June 2006 issue of the free online magazine Sub Rosa is now available from The Daily Grail: http://subrosa.dailygrail.com It features stories on crop circles, Dean Radin's psi research, and an excerpt from "2012". Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:55:37 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#af12091a-e335-47b9-bf1a-a7419af89d76 Hoopes 2006-06-22T15:55:37Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a926e309-3ccc-4851-9be2-da8649fa1625 Another Lovecraft story, more relevant to Daniel's "Breaking Open the Head" and interpretations of the DMT experience, is "From Beyond" (1920): http://sprg.ssl.berkeley.edu/~wcoburn/hpl/beyond.html "That Crawford Tilinghast should ever have studied science and philosophy was a mistake. These things should be left to the frigid and impersonal investigator for they offer two equally tragic alternatives to the man of feeling and action; despair, if he fail in his quest, and terrors unutterable and unimaginable if he succeed. Tillinghast had once been the prey of failure, solitary and melancholy; but now I knew, with nauseating fears of my own, that he was the prey of success. I had indeed warned him ten weeks before, when he burst forth with his tale of what he felt himself about to discover. He had been flushed and excited then, talking in a high and unnatural, though always pedantic, voice. "'What do we know,' he had said, 'of the world and the universe about us? Our means of receiving impressions are absurdly few, and our notions of surrounding objects infinitely narrow. We see things only as we are constructed to see them, and can gain no idea of their absolute nature. With five feeble senses we pretend to comprehend the boundlessly complex cosmos, yet other beings with wider, stronger, or different range of senses might not only see very differently the things we see, but might see and study whole worlds of matter, energy, and life which lie close at hand yet can never be detected with the senses we have. I have always believed that such strange, inaccessible worlds exist at our very elbows, and now I believe I have found a way to break down the barriers." Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:11:26 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#a926e309-3ccc-4851-9be2-da8649fa1625 Hoopes 2006-06-22T15:11:26Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#91a7cede-cf83-47a3-b343-6d24f8f989f7 You're right, what is called "belief" and "weird" is a matter of context. The cutting edge of knowledge will always be an outlier, perhaps beginning as an idea that only one person (like Semmelweiss or Einstein) is able to understand. Here's how Shermer defines "weird things": "Unfortunately, thre is not formal definition of a weird thing that most people can agree upon, because it depends so much on the particular claim being made in the context of the knowledge base that surrounds it and the individual or community proclaiming it. One person's weird belief might be another's normal theory, and a weird belief at one time might subsequently become normal. Stones falling from the sky were once the belief of a few daffy Englishmen; today we have an accepted theory of meteorites. In the jargon of science philosopher Thomas Kuhn, revolutionary ideas that are initially anathema to the accepted paradigm, in time may become normal science as the field undergoes a paradigm shift. "Still, we can formulate a general outline of what might constitute a weird thing as we consider specific examples. For the most part, what I mean by a 'weird thing' is: (1) a claim unaccepted by most people in that particular field of study, (2) a claim that is either logically impossible or highly unlikely, and/or (3) a claim for which the evidence is largely anecdotal and uncorroborated" (p. 282). Shermer asserts the following: "Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons" (p. xxvi). This is why I think it's useful to investigate the reasons that motivate beliefs in 'weird things'. I think it's important to read Shermer's excellent book in order to get his full exposition. You can get a new or used copy from Amazon.com for less than $3 (plus shipping). http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805070893 I also recommend The Skeptic's Society website (http://www.skeptic.com ) The "Reading Room" is a collection of free, online articles, book & movie reviews, and essays. I especially recommend Jason Colavito's article "Charioteer of the Gods: H.P. Lovecraft and the Invention of Ancient Astronauts" http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/04-04-26.html#charioteer He notes that "Lovecraft's works recast the supernatural into materialist terms. He took the idea of a pantheon of ancient gods and made them a group of aliens who descended to earth in the distant past." Colavito explains how Lovecraft's "Cthulhu Mythos" made its way into European consciousness through translations of Lovecraft's work that were reprinted in "Planete," a French science fiction magazine. The editors of "Planete," Louis Pawles and Jacques Bergier, wrote a book called "Le Matin des Magiciens" ("The Dawn of the Magicians"). Published in 1960, this book laid the foundation for Erich von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods" (1962), Gordon Hancock's "Fingerprints of the Gods" (1995), and a host of other books that argue for the existence of a "lost civilization" influenced by extraterrestrials. I think Daniel's book, linking crop circles, alien abductions, and the ancient Maya, belongs within this genre. Colavito writes: "Near the end of his life, Lovecraft looked back on the growing body of alien god fiction that he and his friends had created: 'This pooling of resources tends to build up quite a pseudo-convincing background of dark mythology, legendry, and bibiliography—though of course, none of us has the least wish to actually mislead readers.'" Unfortunately, the pseudoscience that evolved from the Cthulhu Mythos continues to confuse imagination with reality--much like the effect of entheogens. What Daniel thought was a transmission from Quetzalcoatl may actually have been the call of Cthulhu. Thu, 22 Jun 2006 15:01:10 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#91a7cede-cf83-47a3-b343-6d24f8f989f7 Hoopes 2006-06-22T15:01:10Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#84ef7814-7b9f-4fb9-8e59-a47a2368c168 Well, c'mon Mr Hoopes, believing in weird things it's a matter of contex. Look at the history of science. My favourite example is Semmelweiss. He showed to his colleagues, in 1848, proofs, taken from the *empiricall experience* of the fact that washing your hands before doing surgery reduced damages on the pacient. In that days, there was no theory about germens (wich, on themselves, are a parallel dimension as well). His colleagues didn't take him seriously. He was object of a lot of criticism, and finally he left Viena and became mentaly ill. So, here you are a smart person who believed weird things. In fact, I think smart people ALWAYS think weird things. Well, look at Einstein: he said time is an illusion. What a weird thing! Thu, 22 Jun 2006 12:23:49 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#84ef7814-7b9f-4fb9-8e59-a47a2368c168 Pepin3Leches 2006-06-22T12:23:49Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9d63eda7-b476-498e-adaa-451eca3f5327 Thanks! That's good advice. I've found that I benefit enormously from both physical and spiritual exercise, but don't engage in either nearly as often as I should. Music, art, fiction, poetry, prayer, meditation, drumming, dancing, laughter. All are tools for finding and expressing your heart. I use them and encourage everyone else to do so as often as you can. I've posted a little bit of my art. Where's yours? Here's a little story I wrote a long time ago that I hope at least some of you enjoy: http://www.ku.edu/%7Ehoopes/arts/gallos/title.html Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:55:30 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9d63eda7-b476-498e-adaa-451eca3f5327 Hoopes 2006-06-21T21:55:30Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#428d0836-1929-438d-931f-f2ec69b1db15 "I am interested in what one friend calls 'the psychology of non-perception,' which allows people of a wide range of intelligence and education to simply deny or short out material that falls outside the belief system they are seeking to maintain." If that's really so, and you're being honest about that, I urge you to read the final chapter of Michael Shermer's excellent book "Why People Believe Weird Things." The chapter is called "Why Smart People Believe Weird Things" and it addresses this precise issue. The final section deals with alien abductions and the ideas of individuals like Jodi Dean, a Columbia Ph.D. and professor of political science who is the author of "Aliens in America," David Jacobs, a history professor at Temple University and author of "The Threat: The Secret Agenda--What the Aliens Really Want... and How They Plan to Get It," and especially the late John Mack, the professor at Harvard Medical School who wrote "Abduction: Human Encounters With Aliens," who was killed in a tragic accident in 2004. If you message me with your snail mail address, I'll send you a copy. Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:45:06 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#428d0836-1929-438d-931f-f2ec69b1db15 Hoopes 2006-06-21T21:45:06Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9f4500b0-5521-4c51-afbe-0171bb620bb8 Danile wrote: "There is a vast difference between belief and knowledge, or faith and knowledge" Faith is not Knowledge Knowledge is not Wisdom Wisdom is not truth Truth is not in advertising Advertising is not art Art is not Dave Dave is not here Here is not the Time The Time is not Prince Prince is not a Symbol Symbols are not meaning Meaning is not important Important is not your weapon young Jedi Jedi is not from Star Trek Star Trek is not impressive to women Women are not objects Objects are not subjects Subjects are not predicates Predicates are not predators Predators are not vegans Vegans are not ranchers Ranchers are not cows Cows don’t make ham Ham is not spam Spam is not waffles Waffles are the best...if ya know what i mean Wed, 21 Jun 2006 20:50:56 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#9f4500b0-5521-4c51-afbe-0171bb620bb8 Xodman 2006-06-21T20:50:56Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e5457908-984e-4258-af55-7a653f9be113 Mr H. writes: "I've gotten the same comments from evangelical, fundamentalist Christians who've tried to persuade me that all I need to do to receive God's grace is to open my heart and ask Jesus to be my personal Lord and Savior. That's one of the few oranges I haven't tried. I'm not convinced I should taste that one, either. That doesn't mean that I in any way reject the idea that it works for a lot of people." Well then: In the spirit of scientific inquiry and intellectual curiosity I challenge you to apply all of your Scientific Method to come to bear upon the mysterious, unknown thing in the middle of your chest. That might be the next Great Mystery in the Universe to be unveiled, Mr. Hoopes. Could the signs pointing to the Center of the Circle actually indicate something? Forbidden Fruit? Not for YOU Mr. Hoopes! --Taste!...and Sup on the Enigma! Do not adjure to Jesus, but find your own understanding. No right, no wrong; open minded investigation. You admit that there is something you don't know, and that understanding could radically change the world--and maybe skepticism is not the tool to use to find such treasures. This Spirit is not just theoretical, but immanent and causal. -il Divino Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:56:04 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e5457908-984e-4258-af55-7a653f9be113 il divino 2006-06-21T18:56:04Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#69ff59a7-c7bb-4b21-a59a-0e4c1a6ad76f I have encountered a lot of people out there - many of them 60s survivors, many much younger - who profess a huge amount of interest in esoteric and occult areas, have developed an encyclopedic knowledge of obscure Crowley references in Led Zep, have poured over Zap comix, read the Necronomicon, memorized Philip K Dick, etc. For me, this is all well and good - a more hip hobby than collecting stamps. However, having an encyclopedic frame of reference on occult and alchemical literature and pop culture crossovers has absolutely nothing to do with the actual ontological shock of encountering the occult as an aspect of reality, with its own laws and powers. For many of these people, the compilation of references actually acts as a defense mechanism against that more profound and threatening encounter. They retreat and retrench into the mold of skepticism, which is not only safer on a personal level, it is also conveniently supported by the institutions and social structures of our world. But of course it would be: The world (that I believe is now ending) is founded upon the separate ego, the alienated consciousness locked into the biological hardware of the brain. There are two possibilities: Either people cannot have the experience (by avoiding psychedelics, by discounting synchronicities and telepathic events, etc), or they can have the experience but miss the meaning. Some people actually take a perverse pride in having the experience but missing the meaning. There is a vast difference between belief and knowledge, or faith and knowledge - an enormous gulf between the kind of inner experience that mystics describe and the faith or belief systems of Christian fundamentalists. I am realizing, in this debate, that this is the critical point which cannot be conveyed easily - or perhaps at all - to someone who is not open to undertaking their own inner quest (because they feel they know it all already, because they have read so much and have so many references). This is not to say that Christian fundamentalists don't have experiences of non-ordinary states. However, in their identification with a certain codified structure of thought, they give over their will rather than claiming spiritual independence - to use Gnostic terms, they fall under the spell of the Demiurge, or in Jungian terms, they are possessed by their archetype, rather than mediating it consciously. I have noted in BOtH that shamanism and spirit possession are opposite paths - the shaman goes into other realms yet maintains his separate identity and keeps his cool. The possessed person gives other their will to a spirit or energy. I think that part of the confusion with Hoopes lies in our discussions on the BOtH board in years past. When I first explored some of these areas, and when I first had my Quetzalcoatl transmission, i was in deep danger of being possessed by the archetype that had descended upon me with such shocking force. It literally took several years of work (and a terribly overwrought first draft of the book that was thankfully rejected) before I could integrate the experience and dis-identify from it. The work that I had to do to dis-identify from the archetype was some of the hardest and most important work I have done as a person. This process is described in "2012". For me, I feel I have confronted Hoopes with a number of literal lapses in logic which he is not capable of addressing - for instance, what I posted about the science around crop circles, above. I am interested in what one friend calls "the psychology of non-perception," which allows people of a wide range of intelligence and education to simply deny or short out material that falls outside the belief system they are seeking to maintain. (My friend is applying this concept to 9-11 conspiracy and the sabotaging of the voting machines by right wing companies). For me, it is about a frequency of consciousness that maintains itself as a closed loop - what can be actually effective in breaking that loop? To return to Thomas Kuhn again, he noted that a new paradigm only becomes common currency when the esteemed members of the establishment holding the old paradigm physically die out, which allows younger people more open to new ideas - or perhaps vibrating at the new frequency - to take their place. It may be that we will not have the time or luxury for such a scenario, if we are going to move to a framework that embraces psychic and intuitive aspects of reality for the purpose of global transformation in the next few years. I don't know how this wlll play out, but it will be interesting to see. Wed, 21 Jun 2006 18:11:20 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#69ff59a7-c7bb-4b21-a59a-0e4c1a6ad76f Daniel 2006-06-21T18:11:20Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#16ff1ce4-5585-4f4d-8379-d103209fb992 Skepticism is the healthy diet of a self-critical mind and won't be threatened by the defence of the paranormal. Skeptics eventually poop truth. Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:43:00 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#16ff1ce4-5585-4f4d-8379-d103209fb992 Chontler 2006-06-21T17:43:00Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#073fa329-457c-4506-90fa-815dedd16fed Bernhard - Although I am probably in alignment with you on most of your concepts and perspectives (I am deliberately avoiding using the term 'beliefs'), and even with some of your convictions, I find it odd how strenuously you seem to need to 'convince' others (such as Hoopes) or to 'prove' your own truths and 'disprove' others' opinions... So Hoopes appears to be more resolutely skeptic about a lot of things than you and me, so what? It doesn't really bother me, because the crop circles will continue to proliferate, paranormal phenomena is going to persist in multifarious manifestations (and is likely to accelerate in frequency and intensity, I suspect), regardless of whether or not most people choose to believe or disbelieve - It's the nature of such phenomena as being outside the box, out of the range of human control and conceptualization, and so it is not threatened by skepticism and disbelief... I get more frustrated when people don't see the more ugly political and sociological realities that are right under our collective nose, their denial thereby perpetuating the system of injustice, abuses, deceit, suffering and exploitation... that's where I would really like to shake people up and 'convince' them... But in the end I gotta go: everybody's at different stages of growth and awareness, and maybe some of us have to learn things the hard way (like once we've wrecked the planet maybe then we'll all realize how valuable it is, more important than all the other stupid crap we've based our lives around)... and besides "Who am I to be critical?"... Wed, 21 Jun 2006 17:37:29 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#073fa329-457c-4506-90fa-815dedd16fed $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-21T17:37:29Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1991f6f8-9034-4354-a8bd-f48f0256f986 http://www.numberonemusic.com/ericxodik/ I saw D.P. speak in the big MAPS tent At Burning Man ’05 i was reading "open the head" so it was cool to see the author in mid-reading His talk had a profound impact on me It helped re-contexualize my past I wasn’t abducted or anything But I some serious La Chorera -type experiences Back in the mid-90’s (fuckin out there) At the time I didn’t know about TMcK or DP So I was pretty much on my own Now it looks like maybe I’m not insane But I just live at the end of the Industrial-Post-Industrial era Which is a fairly fuckin insane time period (let’s nuke North Korea) Open The Head and 2012 serve as a DP encyclopedia (I’ve used both to look things up…like “Katuns” and the name of that Grateful Dead lyricist) This stuff was recorded post b-man '05 A sonic journal of my own ‘archaic revival’ Attempting to pick up the vibe of ancient tribal music Note: the only “programmed” or “sampled” thing in this Are the percussion…an Alesis SR16 drum machine Everything else (guitar and bass) is generated by Live performance (mostly improvised): http://www.numberonemusic.com/ericxodik/ Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:11:43 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1991f6f8-9034-4354-a8bd-f48f0256f986 Xodman 2006-06-21T16:11:43Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f58c9772-be00-4460-822b-7f75ff731c8d "I'm getting a bit dissapointed here with your stubborness. This sentence shows nicely how your ego has constructed a very nice defense-mechanisms to defend its basic belief system with no basis." Stubbornness? With no basis? Listen, Bernhard. I've been fascinated by arcana and esoterica since grade school, when I had a whole library of the "stranger than science" books by followers of Charles Fort that I'd started collecting at used book sales. I grew up in Baltimore, which was a pretty strange and alternative place in the early 70s (think John Waters, whose movies have featured one of my relatives). As I think I've mentioned before, my mother was a Rosicrucian who had an openness for all kinds of alternative hypotheses. I was reading about UFOs, ancient astronauts, lost continents, and all kinds of stuff long before the Web even existed. Perhaps because of my mother, I also had a deep interest in spirituality. I read Blavatsky, including her massive books, "The Secret Doctrine" and "Isis Unveiled," Gurdjieff, Crowley, and even Steiner while I was still in high school. (I learned about these from book called "The Occult" by Colin Wilson, which I read around 1973.) I went through an occult phase decades before "goth" was even a part of our vocabulary. (I also used ecstasy back in 1978, when it used to be called "MDMA".) My interest in entheogens goes back to a passion for Tom Wolfe (including "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test"), Castaneda's books, a couple of which (including "Journey to Ixtlan") I read in *hardcover* shortly after they were published, and a long-term love for bands like Yes and the Grateful Dead. I still treasure my collection of Zap comix, with a special admiration for Robert Crumb, Robert Williams, and S. Clay Wilson. I started following Burning Man online in 1997 and have now been to the event three times (where I met Daniel in '03 and '05). I read Daniel's BOTH shortly after it appeared in print and blogged on his site for a long time. I've read a bunch of other books, too, *many* of which I've mentioned in this thread (apparently to the point where some people are getting tired of that). I started this thread back in March and have been a regular participant ever since. Is there anything there to indicate a lack of engagement? Why are YOU and others so stubborn (not to mention insulting) to suggest that I haven't considered these issues carefully and made my own reasoned decisions about them? My passion for the esoteric has led me to study ancient cultures that most people haven't even *heard* of (see http://chibchan.tribe.net ), along with the "mainstream" ones in Mesoamerica (like the Maya) and the Andes. I'm sure you'll write off all of what I've just said as further evidence of an elaborate defense mechanism to defend a "belief system," but I'd like to suggest that it's you (and others) who find it impossible to wrap your minds around the idea that someone might have actually considered all of this stuff without being convinced. "As I said before, one cannot know the taste of an orange until on has tried it..." I've gotten the same comments from evangelical, fundamentalist Christians who've tried to persuade me that all I need to do to receive God's grace is to open my heart and ask Jesus to be my personal Lord and Savior. That's one of the few oranges I haven't tried. I'm not convinced I should taste that one, either. That doesn't mean that I in any way reject the idea that it works for a lot of people. "It's funny, we all write on this forum here, on our beloved Internet and as advanced as we are technologically , we still communicate with the most limited form of communication: Words. What will be next?" I challenge each and every participant on this thread to take a break from the word thing and contribute something creative to the discussion in the way of original images, sounds, and other experiences. You can do it with something as simple as a photo posted to this Tribe or a link to an MP3 or video file you've recorded. Add a link here when you're done so each of us can participate in some non-verbal sharing. (If you post a photo on this Tribe, people can add comments about how they've experienced it.) Here are two of my own: http://2012.tribe.net/photos/fb3eb61b-aac9-4f54-bd73-d587de88de30 http://2012.tribe.net/photos/bc0b8ddb-6a28-4558-b283-895565d689f7 I have a lot of respect for you, Bernhard. Why is my modestly informed skepticism so disappointing to you? Could it have something to do with faith? "For those who believe, proof is not necessary. For those who do not believe, proof is not possible." Wed, 21 Jun 2006 14:53:31 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#f58c9772-be00-4460-822b-7f75ff731c8d Hoopes 2006-06-21T14:53:31Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e3cf11be-d44f-4606-b44a-d9d214d27cdc "I'm personally satisfied with the explanation that even the most complex crop circles are ones that can be conceived and made by human artists familiar with the right techniques." Hoopes, I'm getting a bit dissapointed here with your stubborness. This sentence shows nicely how your ego has constructed a very nice defense-mechanisms to defend its basic belief system with no basis . You're making judgments about things you haven't researched and you also seem to know a lot about entheogens and the effects it has on its users. As I said before, one cannot know the taste of an orange until on has tried it...........Reading your comment about Psychonauts made me think about your psychedelic experiences and wonder of you ever had one. I really don't care if one takes entheogens or not, I also don't think it's neccesary. Everyone is different. It works for me and I've had amazing insights whcih I cannot put into words. I'm no more insightful becausue I took them compared to someone who hasn't. All indians, no Chiefs, as far as I'm concerned. I just don't understand how peoplpe can judge them if they haven't experienced it.........in particular DMT......which is in a league of its own.......... produced by a pineal gland.....so , yeah, I think that these experiences, no matter how subjective, can give us important inights that are beyond the grasp of scientific thought. It's funny, we all write on this forum here, on our beloved Internet and as advanced as we are technologically , we still communicate with the most limited form of communication: Words. What will be next? Wed, 21 Jun 2006 07:14:20 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#e3cf11be-d44f-4606-b44a-d9d214d27cdc $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-21T07:14:20Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#6b830488-1dc7-48f4-b0b5-486d5324912e Please do not think i am being sexist towards women here i mean that in a 'gender penis' sense not a 'sex penis' Wed, 21 Jun 2006 05:43:56 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#6b830488-1dc7-48f4-b0b5-486d5324912e Xodman 2006-06-21T05:43:56Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7e6e1c72-a975-4665-aa2d-ccbcb0b857c3 > It seems that a lot of posters wanted the book to re-enforce their. Existing belief systems that they are oh so attached to... No, I wouldn't say that, I see a lot of different perspectives of openness among the contributors to these very challenging discussions which I feel privileged to be a (small) part of, with such articulate thinkers and explorers here (who are so much more evolved than I am in most ways) - There are possibly some who are narrowly reactionary as you suggest, but others seem to find fault with DP for not taking his ideas far enough: like Theo, who basically keeps attacking the author with character assassinations because he's not perceived to be as original and groundbreaking as Terence McKenna (saying so much as 'you're not the New Age Messiah we're waiting for, so f**k off') And though I am probably out of my depths with most of the discourse here, this is the most provocative thread that has appeared on this tribe for a long time (though I certainly don't bother looking at a lot of them), and for a book to have sparked this level of debate is a respectable enough achievement in itself... Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:33:59 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7e6e1c72-a975-4665-aa2d-ccbcb0b857c3 $item.owner.firstName 2006-06-21T04:33:59Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7a08f1a0-cdd4-416b-abc7-c2f2efb08cba i apologize if i appear close minded in my above post that was not my intent at all. i stated in an earlier that i am biased toward my view because i am tasked with it so of course it has higher standing in my mind.... i also had a brain fart because of Daniels book... he talks about the collective conciousness or as Don Juan spoke of in the Casteneda books, the first attention. Where we all agree that the world works on our collective aggreement to the rules and conditions of this world. his caused me to think that whatever 'collective conciouseness' had the most power at the time would be the world we would end up with, or people with a higher mind-state go with the new higher mind state Earth, or... i think were all looking for THE ANWSER, and i agree with you when you say we should work on our own 'awakening' i was not disappointed in Daniels book. i disagree with parts of it, and i agree with parts of it. Agian apologies to Daniel if i came of like a ***hole, it was not my intent. Love Light Bow Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:09:17 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#7a08f1a0-cdd4-416b-abc7-c2f2efb08cba Kundalini 2006-06-21T04:09:17Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d149c3a2-63f0-4d8a-ac67-5c9b59591446 I (too) wish that there was more of a coming together of the minds, a sharing of related experiences, and a reinforcing and expounding of concepts, instead of the back and forth "penile" fencing (to extend the metaphor--and yes, ladies can fence this way too, it's just a metaphor! ; ) ) that has been going on. No, I'm not saying I'm not interested in hearing antithetical viewpoints and the like. It's nice to get a balance, and the thread has so far been a lot of argumentative banter. lets see some new ideas, some expounding, some synchronictiy on thread 3 of this amazing conversation! As Xodman (pron. Chodeman?...sorry, I could resist man--all in good fun!!) puts it, find your own goddamn path. but isnt it nice to glance over at the others walking their paths and find out what they see? That is part of what makes being a human on a spiritual journey so awesome! "There are as many paths to paradise as there are people on the planet." (not sure who said that.) Xris (pron. Chris) Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:07:51 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d149c3a2-63f0-4d8a-ac67-5c9b59591446 Xris 2006-06-21T04:07:51Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5efd3e72-49ff-427f-8f13-de098895b24e hey star, true, not all of us that are wagging "have" an actual penis....but I do keep several of them in a velvet lined drawer...comes in handy for same sex romps, not so unhandy for "other" sex forays....=wink wink= :+) Wed, 21 Jun 2006 04:06:26 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#5efd3e72-49ff-427f-8f13-de098895b24e rebecca 2006-06-21T04:06:26Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3f0ff452-d67b-43f9-b1fa-2901a7b9a493 "But it’s lame that everyone wants to show off their pseudo-intellectual penis." Ehem... um, not everyone here has a penis. :-) Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:52:01 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3f0ff452-d67b-43f9-b1fa-2901a7b9a493 Lana 2006-06-21T03:52:01Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#c4331de7-9626-4274-8b24-4a90702a4a74 I’ve been reading these threads and I sense a lot of disappointment It seems that a lot of posters wanted the book to re-enforce their Existing belief systems that they are oh so attached to No one seems to integrate the ideas or produce new tangential ideas from the questions raised They just reject it outright and use “out of context” ways to pick it apart I don’t understand why anyone even read this book if that’s the attitude going in Why read any book at all for that matter? To paraphrase Carlos Castaneda: A man must approach knowledge like going into battle: with fearlessness All I see are cowardly rats huddled in the corner hanging on to their own solipsistic paradigms I think it’s great that someone would write a book and then interact directly with their readers---that’s not done very often But it’s lame that everyone wants to show off their pseudo-intellectual penis There were parts of the book that were for me very uncomfortable Parts I didn’t understand Parts I didn’t agree with Parts I didn’t care for But overall I found the whole exercise very thought provoking It provided a lot of questions about the world And there is no ultimate answer…except in the part about Gnosticism: save your own goddamned soul Wed, 21 Jun 2006 03:40:00 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#c4331de7-9626-4274-8b24-4a90702a4a74 Xodman 2006-06-21T03:40:00Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3c20e00c-a8b6-436f-a591-507a8f9cfcca i apologize if you are reading this twice... Daniel wrote: Re: 2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl (continued)Today, 3:03 PM <<Mythologically, or archetypally, I am not convinced of this. I know that Shiva opens his third eye to destroy the universe at the end of the kalpa, but I have not heard of him dancing at the end of the Kali Yuga. Perhaps you could steer me to your source? >> It is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam that in Kali-yuga the heads of government will be plunderers and thieves. These thieves and plunderers take the money and property of the public by force or connivance. Therefore it is said in Srimad-Bhagavatam, rajanyair nirghrnair dasyu-dharmabhih. As Kali-yuga advances, we can see that these characteristics are already visible. We can certainly imagine how deteriorated human civilization will be by the end of Kali-yuga. Indeed, there will no longer be a sane man capable of understanding God and our relationship with Him. In other words, human beings will be just like animals. At that time, in order to reform human society, Lord Krsna will come in the form of the Kalki avatara. His business will be to kill all the atheists because ultimately the real protector is Visnu, or Krsna." Srimad-Bhagavatam 5:12:7 Purport Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada. a 'whole' being is the integration of the Masculine/Feminine, Kali is a 'whole' being, the feminie aspect of Shiva, one cannot appear without the other... i have also read conflicting accounts of the yuga's name, some books state the name does not refer to Kali, but is for the other meaning in Sanskrit terrible. Other books state it is because it is Kali's enery that is manifested durring the age. also it is not Shiva, it is Brahma who opens his eye...i cannot locate the passage where i read it, it may not be in the same book, it basically phrases it as Brahama wakes for a moment, the dream ends and the new dream begins. <<If I am pushing this to the other extreme, it is hopefully necessary to rebalance, and realize that men and women have been complicit partners in the disaster.>> You state it here yourself... we are men/women both responsible, and i suggest that Kali is not out of control,Mother gone Mad, nor Shiva, Father gone Mad, but our response to this particular energy is out of control. Which is why the Tantra is revealed before the Kali Yuga, the practice of transforming the Dark into the Light of transformation, the extreme 'pressure' that reveals the diamond. The majority of the people in this time have not recieved actual 'spirtual' training regarding energy, or the occult. Hence the Madness. i totally agree with you.. but the stated (it may be only a difference of wording) solution: <<though not yet complete. I would suggest that the full depth of that liberation and what it indicates have not yet been fully consciously realized by many. I support Wilhelm Reich’s idea that “sexually awakened women, affirmed and recognized as such, would mean the complete collapse of the patriarchy.” >> imo it should read SPIRITUALY awakened women. The Feminine as whole. i believe we are already sexually awakened, but not in a form that is an advantage on the spirtual path. Women have and continue to misuse sexual energy as a power over others. imo it takes a Spirtual awakening in order to end this misuse and transform it to being used for the creation of Awareness. this is why i was tasked with help manifesting Whole feminine energy here.(imo) i carry the energy of the White Tara, i am not an avatar it is just the energy i manifest.. i am not completely 'whole' yet kundalini is still on the downward movement, the Masculine counterpart descending... i think i know the name of the energy i am not 100% and would rather not speculate. thank you for writing your book thank you for sharing your experiences Love Light Bow Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:19:32 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#3c20e00c-a8b6-436f-a591-507a8f9cfcca Kundalini 2006-06-20T22:19:32Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1175d6aa-a5d4-4aa2-bd48-53f1a59e0385 “…As to the question of what kind of tea, that will be up to them to decide.” I find myself in the same way of thinking, as daniel. Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:52:10 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#1175d6aa-a5d4-4aa2-bd48-53f1a59e0385 sidecross 2006-06-20T16:52:10Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#40b00d05-12e7-4e00-970c-4171deba5dbc "A century or two ago, before anyone was thinking about the greys, crop circles might have been attributed to fairies, pixies, brownies, or leprechauns. Why aren't you investigating these possibilities? Before alien abductions, people were abducted by witches and demons, why don't you consider these models as well? I would contend that you do have pre-existing ideas, and that they privilege extraterrestrial or extra-dimensional beings over fairies, pixies, witches and demons.." Did you actually read my book? I discuss fairies, gnomes, and demons at length, including looking at the alien abduction accounts as the modern heritage of earlier fairy world encounters. I don't provide closure on this issue, because that would be beyond my present level of knowledge or insight. I also do not say that the crop circles are the product of "extraterrestrials," lucifer demons, or goblins. I say they are a teaching on the nature of reality, orchestrated by other levels of galactic intelligence. Someday, I hope to have more knowledge of the perpetrators - as I suggest in my High Times interview, I am hoping that by December 21, 2012, I will be having tea with these entities. As to the question of what kind of tea, that will be up to them to decide. Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:31:05 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#40b00d05-12e7-4e00-970c-4171deba5dbc Daniel 2006-06-20T16:31:05Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#08b250e6-04e4-4144-93d1-c5390caea698 Hoopes writes: “I'm personally satisfied with the explanation that even the most complex crop circles are ones that can be conceived and made by human artists familiar with the right techniques.” That is wonderful that you are “perfectly satisfied” with this convenient hypothesis, as you have attained your satisfaction without studying the evidence, or visiting the formations for yourself. Hoopes writes: “Extradordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What's the best you've got? (Please don't tell me that it's the science of studying broken wheat stalks. There are all kinds of phenomena that we experience daily that science has never bothered to investigate because there was no reason to.” Here is an example of a selective use of the scientific method to support a threatened belief system. What you are saying here is no different from someone saying, “just because physicists like John Wheeler created experiments to establish that electrons can be either wave or particle, even retroactively, this does not alter my faith in the Newtonian-Cartesian paradigm – after all, those electrons are tiny. I =know= there is an objective reality, so there. “ Hoopes: “… The physiology of broken plant stalks is an example of this, and it's not surprising that they may be poorly understood, if in fact that's the case.)” Little things can be big things, as the example above from quantum physics suggests. These papers on molecular changes to crops in the formations were published in peer-review science journals, based on years of research and evidence compiled by dedicated scientists. They have not been refuted on the level of science, hence they stand as the current level of understanding of the phenomenon. Occam’s Razor cuts both ways. Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:26:29 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#08b250e6-04e4-4144-93d1-c5390caea698 Daniel 2006-06-20T16:26:29Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#b2b3c9ad-f8ba-404f-9b0b-20108afa3319 ah ha! now i get it. an L A condo. you guys a real estate agents!!! :::jjj---))) Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:54:10 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#b2b3c9ad-f8ba-404f-9b0b-20108afa3319 jameseye 2006-06-20T15:54:10Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#194dbd28-8da1-4085-9393-9c977e07fd8c For online resources about ancient Mesoamerica, see: Mesoweb http://www.mesoweb.com FAMSI http://www.famsi.org Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:23:48 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#194dbd28-8da1-4085-9393-9c977e07fd8c Hoopes 2006-06-20T15:23:48Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d864e7b4-4d3a-4529-9dc5-c3d752172a8f For those with a serious interest in the ancient Maya, I recommend: The Ancient Maya (6th ed.), by Robert J. Sharer & Loa Traxler http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0804748179 Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:13:07 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#d864e7b4-4d3a-4529-9dc5-c3d752172a8f Hoopes 2006-06-20T15:13:07Z http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#0e022804-3f0e-433f-9aa4-b47dc228d980 This thread, which I think is developing the admirable quality of a thick hank of yarn, spun from fibers of many different colors, textures, and materials, is a direct continuation of: http://2012.tribe.net/thread/bb20af95-f26b-4954-ad5a-6aa9b861e67d which in turn was a direct continuation of: http://2012.tribe.net/thread/348cfd7e-ab99-44c3-8b0d-9928cc2aa858 You're welcome to respond to whatever message floats your boat or pushes your button anywhere along the way, but I'm adding yet another extension to facilitate navigation. It's easiest for all if you give the name of the person to whose message you're responding followed by an appropriate snippet of what they said. This seems to be working well. For those who are just joining in, this thread was started as a discussion of Daniel Pinchbeck's new book, "2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl," available from Amazon.com: www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585424838 However, its *real* purpose is to sell you whatever's being hyped in the box to the right of this message. Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:08:26 GMT http://2012.tribe.net/thread/04677364-a159-470f-b0f5-c4eeda34f0a7#0e022804-3f0e-433f-9aa4-b47dc228d980 Hoopes 2006-06-20T15:08:26Z