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ZEITGEIST - new updated version, official release

topic posted Thu, June 28, 2007 - 8:17 AM by  Unsubscribed
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video.google.com/videoplay
www.zeitgeistmovie.com

It's the full version, 2h long. Some corrections and add-ons. HIGHLY recommended. Very well done, especially the editing, music and narrating.

btw, Zeitgeist is german and translates into "Spirit/ghost of time/age"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist


from their website:

"Thank you for your interest in Zeitgeist.
Zeitgeist was created as a not for profit expression to inspire people to start looking at the world
from a more critical perspective and to understand that very often things are not what the
population at large think they are. The information in Zeitgeist was established over a year long period
of research and the current Source page on this site lists the sources used / referenced.
Soon, an interactive transcript will be online with detailed footnotes and links.

It's important to point out that there is a tendency to simply disbelieve things that are
counter to our understanding, without the necessary research performed.
For example, some information contained in Part 1 and Part 3, specifically, is not obtained
by simple keyword searches on the Internet. You have to dig deeper. For instance,
very often people who look up "Horus" or "The Federal Reserve" on the Internet
draw their conclusions from very general or biased sources. Online encyclopedias or text book
Encyclopedias often do not contain the information contained in Zeitgeist. However, if one takes
the time to read the sources provided, they will find that what is being presented is
based on documented evidence.

That being said, it is my hope that people will not take what is said
in the film as the truth, but find out for themselves, for truth is not told, it is realized.

Thank you"
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  • The first and last sections were really interesting. Its too bad they included all that flapdoodle about 9-11. Just because they let it happen doesn't mean they planted explosives... Thats been pretty roundly refuted, I wish they'd just spent twice as much time deconstructing religion and the international banking system. Maybe a little bit more about offshore holding companies and tax havens?
    • Unsu...
       
      "It's too bad they included all that flapdoodle about 9-11. Just because they let it happen doesn't mean they planted explosives... "


      It's too bad that many americans live in denial and actually believe that there are terrorists, al qaida and osama who are behind the 9/11 attacks and who are a "threat" to this "free" nation. I think it's pride in the end of the day. Not many americans like to admit that they've been @#!?ed by their own gvernment and not only in regards to the 9/11 scenario ( whcih I still consider a piece of art. Much respect for the men behind the curtain to pull that shit off and making a whole nation beileve it was a couple of guys with box knife cutters and that three WTC buildings just melted down because of the plane fuel)....and no, they ddidn't "let it happen".....that would imply that you actually believe the whole terrorist scam. Boooh!!, be afraid of the boogeyman and here comes the war on terror...to secure your freedom!! There is your enemy! Be afraid of him/her/it/them! But don't worry we will save YOU............from yourself.

      It's an ego thing for sure. It has to be. How dumb can one be to actually believe the official story to this day with two towers collapsing at free fall and no plane at the pentagon (with cameras confiscatd who could show us the "plane") and all the other holes in the official story? Sorry, but I have no other explanation. it is either stupidity, lack of intelligence ,an in-ability to think a bit deeper , not doing some reserach beyond watching TV/reading newspapers..or most people are aware of it, but don't talk about it or stand up for it because or fear. Fear of loosing status, fear of what friends, family, co-workers might say, fear of loosing a job, career, etc........or even fear of their own government.

      I just watched "Sicko", Michael Moore's new movie.( a free online version was roaming on myspace). Very good. I didn't like his last movie since he obviously didn't go deep enough.....or was too afraid to expose things which could have cost him his career.
      Anyway, in his new movie he's over in Europe, France and England, checking out the country's free health care systems.
      He interviewed some people, asking them about what hey think about americans.
      They said: "Here the government is afraid of the people. In the US the people seem to be afraid of the government."

      I think that hits it it right on the nail. Having grown up in Germany, I can onlly attest of that. Most people here in the US seem so self-absorbed, so utterly concerned only with themselves, without any disragrd to what is happening around them,as long as they have their "entertainment" and other mind numbing distractions......whcih remidns me...the Zeitgeist documentary is about 2h long.
      Probably most people rather watch a two hour adrenaline hollywood movie a la Brue Willis in "Live free or die hard" (talking about propaganda!) then an eduactional film like that.

      it's actually not hard to control the majority of the citizens of the US. It's like zombies on drugs....very slllooow.......can't blame them though. Media and education are the best tools to control a people, especially in this country........where people still believe that there is a difference between republicans and democrats or that the president has any say. A puppet show where one hand pulls all the strings.

      Not saying that Europe is much better in terms of governemnt, just saying people over there area bit faster on the streets if they smell a rat than here. Problem here is, I'm, not sure people even get it. Could the dumbing down of this nation already be so progressed that it is too late?

      Of course there are many exceptions, many of then on this board here.....but I hate to tell ya....the majority still lives in utter denial and ignorance.......whenever this house of card topples......it's gonna be a rude awakening for most.

      Fourth of July is getting close. Get your flags out and celebrate your freedom!!!


      "All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach. How fortunate for leaders that men do not think."
      -Adolf Hitler




      • Unsu...
         
        I don't see how anyone has even approached proving that these "terrorists" do not exist and seek to defend their people and religion from our imperialistic dealings in their world. Just because there are many inconsistencies in the 9/11 story doesn't mean that it was an inside job. I agree with Nick, there is no evidence that can allow us to conclude that the government orchestrated and concealed the attacks. That is a massive job that would require many participants to remain silent, adding to the unlikelihood. However, what does make sense is that the highest echelons of the government ignored and suppressed the distribution of the warnings re plane crashes and possibly inserted their fingers into the defense procedures as the attacks were being carried out. There appears to be a decent amount of evidence for that scenario (although my guess is that many of the "facts" outlined by these various documentaries would not last long in court or in a congressional panel).

        That said, I don't know how different it is to orchestrate vs. allow such atrocities. And although I am not convinced that the U.S. government planted explosives (it is certainly possible that that was incorporated into the terrorists' plan), I can see how the government could have...maybe... removed some of the barriers for al Qeada. You see, I think it would be far more convenient for the Bush administration if they had virtually no involvement with the physical preparations for the attacks.

        Here is Michael Scheuer, author of "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror". He was the head of the Bin Laden Issue Station (Alec Station) in the CIA from 1996 to 1999. His views are mixed, but I do appreciate his respect for Muslim religion and religious. He is also deeply concerned that our country will suffer more attacks from Muslim jihadis, possibly a nuclear attack (although I haven't heard people discussing the suitcase scenario for some time.)

        » www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/...p-ron-paul/

        » www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/...-scheuer-2/

        Love,

        Jacob
        • Unsu...
           
          I do not understand how religion is a tool of the elite used to "dumb down" us lowlies... I agree, they should have elaborated on this connection in the film, because it seems rather weak. But what can be said? If this is so, why has religion become so ancillary in the lives of most western folk? Hasn't science replaced much of that?

          What do you guys think Richard Dawkins would think of this film, esp the discussion on religion as a tool of manipulation?
          • Exactly. I am fascinated by this documentary, but it implies that the people in power are much more organized and capable than history would lead us to believe. I said this in the other thread on this movie, but I'll say it here. Particularly in regards to the religious segment, I found it a bit disingenuous how they never mention how syncretism and appropriation of pagan beliefs and dogma played a huge role in the developing church.

            cum hoc ergo propter hoc

            Correlation does not equal causation. I would just like to hear more about that.

            And Bernhard, I realize you are very passionate about this, but it seems like you're letting this affect you personally. I was intrigued by loose change when it came out, and did quite a bit of research on it. I come from a family of engineers, some of whom were involved in the rebuilding and recovery effort from a GIS standpoint. I also worked in disaster relief for a few years, and have met many of the workers who cleaned up in the days and months after 9-11.

            There are plenty of terrible lies that the government has perpetrated against us, but I just don't think that planting explosives was one of them. No civil engineers or structural engineers or materials scientists have presented credible evidence for it. No government operatives have come out saying they had a part in it.

            There have been dozens of disaffected former administration officials and operatives who've wrote very damning things about the President and his cronies. That none of them have mentioned 9/11 is pretty indicative that there was no pro-active plan to take the towers down.

            Allowing it to happen is a whole different animal. What they did afterwards is almost as awful, given the global goodwill and support that was squandered. Can't misusing intelligence and invading an uninvolved country be enough? Why does it have to be some ridiculous conspiracy, when we already know about the PNAC guys and the con-game they pulled on us with Iraq?
            • Unsu...
               
              "And Bernhard, I realize you are very passionate about this, but it seems like you're letting this affect you personally.'

              I gues the passion comes out through my direct approach when writing posts, but I also have learned that people here (the US) are just very , very conditioned to the point you can show themm anythign, they still believe the illusion. In the past I've letting me this affect more personally. these days I let it all go.
              6 years ago when it happened, I smelled the rat right away and started to question it all, while in the meantime all this pseudo patriotic nationalism came up with everyone putting up flags in the gardens and on their cars. THAT was actually more scary than 9/11 itself, the fact that people so esaily bought into the terror threat without questioning.

              Sorry, bro, but if you really believe that those towers came down basically at free fall and literally dissolved into dust just because of the burning fuel of the planes, and the fact that you believe int the terror threat, then I really have noting to say anymore at all .
              Look at the latest bombing scenario in London with one car crashing in an airport (how funny!!.....I actually though some teenagers did it). A day later the prime minister comes out and states that england is under serious terror threat by al qaida. Come on!. Give me a break!
              It must be a joke. Who cna take that serious?
              No, I don't really get upset these days anymore, I used to a lot in the past in the manner of zack de la rocha of RATM when he screams "Wake up!" in one of their songs, letting out all his anger and frustration through music.
              But these days, I gotta laugh about it all. I just can't take anyone serious who buys into the whole illusion of the "war and threat on terror" and believes the things the governments or media reports. I'm not laughing at anyone, just laughing as therapy to deal with the mediocrisy, stupidity and denial that is going on in the world.


              I'm giving my best to make people think, so they look a bit deeper and even question their own belief systems.
              Yes, I might be passionate about it, but I'm no preacher standing at the corner. I give my best to keep the discussion about it open, so people don't fall back into slumber. Not many people are going to wake up (and many are actually not meant to wake up, I keep realizing...not all souls on this planet are here for the light, they have a different purpose). This is getting clearer and clearer the more I dig down the rabbit hole. 99% of the population of earth have to this day no clue whatosever what is actually happening in the world......and 2012 will not be the dawn of the golden age where people jsut live happily next to each other.

              None of this I see as negative or bad, it just is. Love and light are the answer to it all, so says the typical new ager and sometimes they don't realize that light means information, knowledge, not just light as in a "bright light"...lol!.
              Gaining knowledge is a bit tricky these days with all the disinfo present. Most of the disinfo is actually in the new age arena with dubious "create your own reality" schemes making people into narcisstic individuals who are mostly concerned with the "I" and let's not even start with the many channeled garbage out there. (there are good sources of channeling as there is truth to CYOR, however the way some of it is presented to the masses is quite smart and very cleverly distraction form what is coming down)
              Evidence of this new age conditioing is for example how new agers don't want to deal with any "bad" aspects of reality because it upsets their "vibration" and they might "manifest it into their reality"........Bullshit!......... I have been gotten into some of the most disturbing information over the years and it all has only enriched my life and the more I shine light onto the dark, whcih simply means making it conscious (including and even more important confronting my own darkness/shadow), the more I'm in tune with nature, myself and the whole process of becomign conscious, being content in the Now.
              You can't have free will with beliefs that are not your own, but whcih have been implated and conditioned in you through a system that has not the slightest interest in your well being.

              Someone said that people have trouble believing all this, becasue they think a government is there for the people to protect them and take care of them.
              I think this is one of the major illusion people have, especially in this country. . Control and power is all what is about, for the sheer joy of control and power, pure ego, seeing the common people as cattle to be used, like a lower life form, while suppressing any knowledge that would mean a threat to the set-up.
              The government is not in place for the better good of all.........never has been.
              Sorry!

              But in the end nothing is really bad or good, it all just is, what is bad for us, is good for others (in that case the men behind the curtain) and part of the awakening process is to see it all as it is, the whole range of consciousness, from dark to light and anything in between, making the unconscious conscious without getting attached to anything and without judgment.

              Waking up is a bit more work than waiting for aliens to helps us while imagining some balls of light or letting the photon belt cross over our heart chakras....or something like that.

              Fact is, if not more people start waking up (and I mean more than watching "The Secret" , "An inconvenient truth", eating raw food, taking yoga classes and driving a hybrid car) and realize what is actually happening, not getting blinded by unquestioned new age, political and religious dogmas .....we will be in for a big surprsie...well, actually it's not gonna be a big surprsie at all. The way things go, people are building their own prisons anyway, they literally create it through the bullocks they believe that is being spoonfed to them through media, entertainment, eduaction, religion and government.

              It's what the Hopi are talking about when they say we have tow paths to choose from.
              The future is not set in stone. There are probable futures, depending if we start to see things for what they are and then use our free will to create something better or we keep cresting a reality that keeps us enslaved for the benefit of the ones who gave us this illsuion to begin with.

              What has been suppressed, ignored and denied needs to come out. In the end it's just a cleansing process, nothing to be afraid of......however 9/11 is still just a kindergartne scenario compared to what else is happening.

              On and all I'm in good spirits and I love life!
              I wouldn't want to be anywhere else than here, doing nothing different than what I'm doing now.



              "There is far more to this world than taught in our schools, shown in the media, or proclaimed by the church and state. Most of mankind lives in a hypnotic trance, taking to be reality what is instead a twisted simulacrum of reality, a collective dream in which values are inverted, lies are taken as truth, and tyranny is accepted as security. They enjoy their ignorance and cling tightly to the misery that gives them identity.

              Fortunately, some are born with spiritual immune systems that sooner or later give rejection to the illusory worldview grafted upon them from birth through social conditioning. They begin sensing that something is amiss, and start looking for answers. Inner knowledge and anomalous outer experiences show them a side of reality others are oblivious to, and so begins their journey of awakening. Each step of the journey is made by following the heart instead of following the crowd and by choosing knowledge over ignorance.

              Knowledge is the key to unlocking our potential. It gives us the self-determination, responsibility, and power necessary to cast off the chains of covert oppression. Knowledge is therefore the greatest protector, for it also gives us foresight to impeccably handle the challenges of life and, most importantly, to sidestep the traps on the path to awakening. The more you know of higher truths and apply what you know, the more you begin operating under higher laws that transcend the limitations of the lower." - Tom Montalk
        • Unsu...
           
          "That is a massive job that would require many participants to remain silent, adding to the unlikelihood."


          "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
          Joseph Goebbels, Nazi propaganda minister


          An easy job if you can make believe the population a lie, then the sheep will control the sheep, so no one steps out of line.
          Just see what happens to anyone who publicly questions the officical 9/11 story. It's not even consciously, it's very subtle, it's just mass beliefs that are so ingrained that it is hard to bypass them and question them. You also seem to beleive that there is a "war on terror". That's what I'm talking about. This "war" is completely fabricated by the one's who tell you that there are terrorists youneed to be afraid of, where one hand controls both sides.
          And why is it unlikey that the "participants" won't remain silent? Here's another big misconception people have. They think the powers that be (PTB)have a conscience like you and me, that they think like you and me, they must be "weak" and have "human" feelings like regret, compassion or guilt.
          Nothing could be further fromt the truth. We're talkign about psychopaths here, a whole different "race" of people if you will. They don't think nor feel like you do, never have and never will be.
          Also don't underestimate the power of compartementaliztion. I can assure you even Bush has really no clue what actually happened. He just serves as a distraction anyway. Whoever was directly involved will stay silent until the end of their lives. You can bet on that.


          Here is an excellent article in that regard , which actually might deserve a topic on its own:

          from:www.cassiopaea.org/cass/pol...ewski.htm
          Political Ponerology: A Science on The Nature of Evil adjusted for Political Purposes
          by Andrew M. Lobaczewski

          Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken.

          And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools.

          Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless.

          You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience, that they seldom even guess at your condition.

          In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world.

          You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences will most likely remain undiscovered.

          How will you live your life?

          What will you do with your huge and secret advantage, and with the corresponding handicap of other people (conscience)?

          The answer will depend largely on just what your desires happen to be, because people are not all the same. Even the profoundly unscrupulous are not all the same. Some people - whether they have a conscience or not - favor the ease of inertia, while others are filled with dreams and wild ambitions. Some human beings are brilliant and talented, some are dull-witted, and most, conscience or not, are somewhere in between. There are violent people and nonviolent ones, individuals who are motivated by blood lust and those who have no such appetites. [...]





          "You see, I think it would be far more convenient for the Bush administration if they had virtually no involvement with the physical preparations for the attacks. "

          Well, I doubt the Bush administration had any direct involvement in it whatsoever, except for being slilent about it. The people you see on TV are not in control. The "administration", people are so mad at are nothing but a bunch of puppets.....who will be replaced by another bunch of puppets at the next "election". When you look at the military industrial complex combined with " who controls the money" then you get a bit closer to who is really in charge here. This is trans-national. The PTB don't recognice any nations aor countriies. The whole patriotic, nation, "separate countries" illlusion is just a set-up for the common-men to keep people separated through ideologies, beliefs and other "tools" of control....and boy, people buy into that.



          "He is also deeply concerned that our country will suffer more attacks from Muslim jihadis, possibly a nuclear attack"

          Brainwashed to the core , like most people living here. Sorry, that's just as it is. Yes, ther are muslim radicals, like in any religion, but they have NOTHING to do with 9/11. Actually if you dig a bit deeper, you will see that Israel and the Zionists are even more involved in 9/11 than any muslims or americans. But no one wants to go there of course. It's a touchy subject.
          It's enemy creation to exactly make people think/react the way you react....to believe that there are terrosits who are threat to this country. Anyway, what do you mean by "our" country anyway?. Can we just PLEASE stop identifying ourselves with any nation, flag or religion and go beyond such stupefying and idiotic belief systems? Stop seeing yourself as "american" or "-insert nation here-" and stop identifying yourself with a country which is not really a country to being with. It's a cooperation, a business and you are property. That's how your government sees you, like cattle, a lower life form that needs tbe controlled and kept in line. As we can see they are doing a great job here as the sheep police the sheep whenever someone steps out of line and questions the whole set-up.
          It's a round planet lat time I checked.


          As Krishnamurti used to say back in the 40's!!!!:

          "An American lady came to see me a couple of years ago, during the war. She had lost her son in war and she had another son whom she wanted to save; so we talked things over. I suggested to her that to save her son she had to cease to be an American; she had to cease to be greedy, cease piling up wealth, seeking power, domination, and be morally simple – not merely simple in clothes, in outward things, but simple in her thoughts and feelings, in her relationships. She said," That is too much, You are asking far too much. I cannot do it, because circumstances are too powerful for me to alter."; Therefore she was responsible for the destruction of her son.
          Circumstances can be controlled by us, because we have created the circumstances. Society is a product of relationship, of yours and mine together. If we change in our relationship, society changes; merely to rely on legislation, on compulsion, for the transformation of outward society, while remaining inwardly corrupt, while continuing inwardly to seek power, position, domination, is to destroy the outward, however carefully and scientifically built. That which is inward is always overcoming the outward.
          What causes war – religious, political or economic? Obviously belief, either in nationalism, in an ideology, or in a particular dogma. If we had no belief but goodwill, live and consideration between us, then there would be no wars. But we are fed on beliefs, ideas and dogmas and therefore we breed discontent. The present crisis is of an exceptional nature and we as human beings must either pursue the path of constant conflict and continuous wars, which are the result of our everyday action, or else see the causes of war and turn our back upon them.
          Obviously what causes war is the desire for power, position, prestige, money; also the disease called nationalism, worship of a flag; and the disease of organized religion, the worship of dogma. All these are the causes of war; if you as an individual belong to any of the organized religions, if you are greedy for power, if you are envious, patriotic, nationalistic, you are bound to produce a society, which will result in destruction. So again it depends upon you and not on the leaders; not on so-called statesman and all the rest of them.
          It depends upon you and me but we do not seem to realize that. If once we really felt the responsibility of our own actions, how quickly we could bring to an end all these wars, this appalling misery! But you see, we are indifferent. We have three meals a day, we have our jobs, we have our bank accounts, big or little, and we say, " For God's sake, don’t disturb us, leave us alone"; . The higher up we are, the more we want security, permanency, tranquillity, the more we want to be left alone, to maintain things fixed as they are; but they cannot be maintained as they are, because there is nothing to maintain. Everything is disintegrating. We do not want to face the fact that you and I are responsible for wars."




          Forget for one second about any "terrorists" and look at the obvious holes in the offical story, like the tower collapse, no planes at the Pentagon and the other "crash site" (where heroic americans fought the terrorists, so it couldn't hit the white house....and making cell phone calls from that plane before all that......hh boy......to believe that one had to really watch way too many hollywood hero movies....they should make an amusement park ride out of it).



          Anyway, the brainswashing and conditioning is deep in this coutnry. I've never met more self-prolaimed "aware", "awake" and "spiritual" people who still buy into the whole propaganda and enemy creation in reagards to 9/11 and the terrorist threat.
          Many actually beliive that there will be a great change for the better once Bush is gone or that there is a difference between democrats and republicans or that your vote has any influence on the outcome. Oh boy, that just shows you how people only wallow on the surface of things.
          Some say that a "leader" is a reflection of the average mind set of the people. Considering the W. Bush is one of the greatest morons ever existed, this doesn't put the american people in a good light....but in some way, it does make sense, doesn't it?
          • Unsu...
             
            another great article

            Official Culture in America:
            A Natural State of Psychopathy?
            www.cassiopaea.org/cass/off...lture.htm
            • Well, if you believe in reptilian shapeshifters, than yes, you could claim that there are 'people' who would remain silent.

              Rodents of Unusual Size?

              I don't believe they exist.
              • Do I believe the government orchestrated 9/11? No. Do I believe a super secret ultra powerful group that pulls the strings behind the scenes orchestrated 9/11? Yes.

                There was a theory posited on C2C recently, in a conversation with a guest about the Denver Airport (some believe a massive prison or "survival city" was constructed beneath) that essentially said 9/11 was orchestrated to instill the necessary fear to prepare for "what's to come..." Meteor? Solar flares? Nuclear Armageddon?

                key words:

                Georgia guidestones
                denver airport
                9/11 mysteries (google video)
              • Come on Nick!?!?#@?? Dont you remember the proof in that famous American Documentary ... mmm... I believe they titled it, "Up in Smoke"? It was the movie where the police chief thats always trying to bust the duo fires up a duboi and notices a fly buzzing around his head, then suddenly a reptillian tongue like a snake comes firing out of his mouth to knab the fly. I think this may have been the slip up, and now we know the truth. :O
              • Unsu...
                 
                "Well, if you believe in reptilian shapeshifters, than yes, you could claim that there are 'people' who would remain silent."


                have you actually read the articles?
                reptilian shapeshifters?. LOL! a la David Icke? No I don't. Icke has some good points and did some great research in regards to secret scieties, the illuminati, etc, but he doesn't get the reptilian thing. He's not too discerning sometimes and he doesn't back up certain sources. Becasue of that he's also victim of many Disinfo material purposley designed to discredit his whole research.

                You shouldn't make conclusion based on assumptions or what you "believe" to be true or not. Personally I'm not interested in beliefs of any kind, just facts, resources and cross-checking everything. When certain unrelated sources seem to speak about the same thing, I follow the tail of the rabbit through this labyrinth of information. Sometimes there are dead ends and the disinformtion becomes clearer and clearer. Truth and lies is like milk mixed with water , it's like separating the milk fromt the water. Not an easy process but possible.
                Just do some research on you rown and dig down the rabbit hole yourself. Then you'll also see what this "reptilian" stuff is all about.....just put your beliefs and what you "think" to be true or not aside and approach it with what the Buddhists call a "beginners mind", the mind of a child, not weighted down by cultural, national and social conditioning. However, since we're all conditioned one way or the other, it is mostly important to be aware of such conditioning and see it for what it is : your mind programmed to see reality a certain way with the tendency to block anything out which might not fit into your belief system/world view as taught to you/us through thousands of years of conditioning and suppression of deeper knowledge. It comes down to self-awareness and self-knowledge.

                here is a good start. These people do some excellent research:
                www.cassiopaea.org
                www.cassiopaea.org/cass/index.html
    • I think people are confused about 9/11 because their perspective is all wrong. They are looking from the inside out. They center their point of view on a local level looking up in awe of the unknown operations of their otherwise all powerful government. From this point of view, why would the government do such a thing as stage 9/11? The government is here to help us, not hurt us.
      When you allow your point of view to expand and drift outwards to the point where an entire nation is more like a big ant pile rather than whatever you think it is, the goals and motives of those in power become less honorable.

      History has told us one thing. Man always tries to enslave himself.
      All of history is essential the same story. Some men tried to enslave other men, and the other men rebelled. There is an equilibrium established throughout all of history between tyranny and revolution.
      We forget that we are writing the history of the future at this very moment. Why would the lessons we have learned in history be any different now? Why do we think we are somehow unique? Do we think we've reached some epic enlightenment where the rules of human history do not apply?
      This thinking is entirely naive. When you cannot learn the lessons of history, you are doomed to repeat them.
      I realized this long ago when i realized that the Washington monument is a huge freaking obelisk. Could it be anymore obvious?
      The obelisk represents Pharaoh's complete domination and control over all people in the land.
      We are repeating a pattern. A pattern that history reveals.
      Wake up you silly little people.

      Didn't you ever wonder in history class, "why didnt the people at the time realize what was going on? How could they be so dumb?"
      Well guess what, future generations sitting in history class will think the exact same thing of you.
      Stop looking from the past. Imagine this time period like you are in the future. Look from the outside in, not the inside out.
      Then you will understand that this time period is fundamentally no different then any other. It is the same mythological story.
      The only real difference, is that the ability for men to enslave men is incredibly easier.

      Wake up, the military-industrial complex took over this nation in the 60's.
      Kennedy hated them. He tried to warn Americans about this rising shadow government.
      He wanted to shatter the CIA into a thousand pieces. He wanted to defend our liberty and independence from evil men.
      Now he's dead.
      Everything is conspiracy.
      You believe exactly what you're supposed to.

      The shepherd always tries to persuade the sheep that their interests and his own are the same.

      • Unsu...
         
        My son and I watched this together. I am passing the link onto others I know who might be interested. I found this movie very compelling. There were many things in it that I knew to be true, but I want to do some research on some other points. It didn't dawn on me until midway through to grab my pen and paper to take notes of questions and thoughts I had. Guess I will have to watch it again. All in all, I think this is a movie everyone should watch, not as a gospel, but as a jumping off point for more thought and research. I loved it that the clips from Network were used. How very appropriate.
        • Unsu...
           
          "I think people are confused about 9/11 because their perspective is all wrong. They are looking from the inside out. They center their point of view on a local level looking up in awe of the unknown operations of their otherwise all powerful government. From this point of view, why would the government do such a thing as stage 9/11? The government is here to help us, not hurt us."

          Good point.
          I'm alwasy amazed how people actually believe that the government is in place for the better good of all. The control seems so obvious.
          That's the bigest hurdle for most it seems. These folks "on top" don't think or feel like you and I.
          Imagine a race of people only operation on the first three energy portals (chakras), not being able to activate the higher centers at all, not having any capability for love or compassion....and won't have in this lifetime either......

          intersting material to study in that regard:

          Organic Portals – The “Other” Race
          www.cassiopaea.org/cass/org...rtals.htm

          THE PSYCHOPATH - The Mask of Sanity - Special Research Project of the Quantum Future Group
          www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopa...opath.htm
          • Unsu...
             
            I like the fact that they are open for clarifications/corrections.

            www.zeitgeistmovie.com/clarif...ons.htm
            • Unsu...
               
              Bernhard wrote: "Good point.
              I'm alwasy amazed how people actually believe that the government is in place for the better good of all. The control seems so obvious.
              That's the bigest hurdle for most it seems. These folks "on top" don't think or feel like you and I."

              That is a big hurdle because most of us do not have any experience with prominent leaders to draw upon. I just don't see how you can convince yourself that these "top" beings think and feel differently then we do without any direct experience or sufficient evidence.

              See
              www.youtube.com/watch

              They don't sound that different to me. Most people I know would converse over those topics in much the same way. They sound pretty respectful and concerned.
              • Unsu...
                 
                Jacob, have you read the links/articels I posted above?
                It talks about exactly that, how they can "mimic" anything but not feel anything at all.

                to consider and study:

                free e-book:

                The Mask of Sanity, by Hervey Cleckley
                www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF

                "We have said that his outer functional aspect masks or disguises something quite different within, concealing behind a perfect mimicry of normal emotion, fine intelligence, and social responsibility a grossly disabled and irresponsible personality."
                - Hervey Cleckley


                "Likeable," "Charming," "Intelligent," "Alert," "Impressive," "Confidence-inspiring," and "A great success with the ladies": These are the sorts of descriptions repeatedly used by Cleckley in his famous case-studies of psychopaths. They are also, of course, "irresponsible," "self-destructive," and the like. These descriptions highlight the great frustrations and puzzles that surround the study of psychopathy.

                Psychopaths seem to have in abundance the very traits most desired by normal persons. The untroubled self-confidence of the psychopath seems almost like an impossible dream and is generally what "normal" people seek to acquire when they attend assertiveness training classes. In many instances, the magnetic attraction of the psychopath for members of the opposite sex seems almost supernatural.

                Cleckley's seminal hypothesis concerning the psychopath is that he suffers from a very real mental illness indeed: a profound and incurable affective deficit. If he really feels anything at all, they are emotions of only the shallowest kind. He does bizarre and self-destructive things because consequences that would fill the ordinary man with shame, self-loathing, and embarrassment simply do not affect the psychopath at all.

                Cleckley comes very close to suggesting that they are human in every respect - but that they lack a soul. This lack of "soul quality" makes them very efficient "machines." They can be brilliant, write scholarly works, imitate the words of emotion, but over time, it becomes clear that their words do not match their actions. They are the type of person who can claim that they are devastated by grief who then attend a party "to forget." The problem is: they really DO forget.

                Being very efficient machines, like a computer, they are able to execute very complex routines designed to elicit from others support for what they want. In this way, many psychopaths are able to reach very high positions in life. It is only over time that their associates become aware of the fact that their climb up the ladder of success is predicated on violating the rights of others."Even when they are indifferent to the rights of their associates, they are often able to inspire feelings of trust and confidence."

                The psychopath recognizes no flaw in his psyche, no need for change.


                From: The Mask of Sanity, by Hervey Cleckley, 5th edition
                www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopa...sycho.htm

                The surface of the psychopath, however, that is, all of him that can be reached by verbal exploration and direct examination, shows up as equal to or better than normal and gives no hint at all of a disorder within.

                Nothing about him suggests oddness, inadequacy, or moral frailty. His mask is that of robust mental health. Yet he has a disorder that often manifests itself in conduct far more seriously abnormal than that of the schizophrenic.

                Inwardly, too, there appears to be a significant difference.

                Deep in the masked schizophrenic we often sense a cold, weird indifference to many of life's most urgent issues and sometimes also bizarre, inexplicable, and unpredictable but intense emotional reactions to what seems almost irrelevant.

                Behind the exquisitely deceptive mask of the psychopath the emotional alteration we feel appears to be primarily one of degree, a consistent leveling of response to petty ranges and an incapacity to react with sufficient seriousness to achieve much more than pseudoexperience or quasi-experience. Nowhere within do we find a real cause or a sincere commitment, reasonable or unreasonable. There is nowhere the loyalty to produce real and lasting allegiance even to a negative or fanatic cause.

                Just as meaning and the adequate sense of things as a whole are lost with semantic aphasia in the circumscribed field of speech although the technical mimicry of language remains intact, so in most psychopaths the purposiveness and the significance of all life-striving and of all subjective experience are affected without obvious damage to the outer appearance or superficial reactions of the personality. Nor is there any loss of technical or measurable intelligence.

                With such a biologic change the human being becomes more reflex, more machinelike. It has been said that a monkey endowed with sufficient longevity would, if he continuously pounded the keys of a typewriter, finally strike by pure chance the very succession of keys to reproduce all the plays of Shakespeare. These papers so composed in the complete absence of purpose and human awareness would look just as good to any scholar as the actual works of the Bard. Yet we cannot deny that there is a difference. Meaning and life at a prodigiously high level of human values went into one and merely the rule of permutations and combinations would go into the other.

                The patient semantically defective by lack of meaningful purpose and realization at deep levels does not, of course, strike sane and normal attitudes merely by chance. His rational power enables him to mimic directly the complex play of human living. Yet what looks like sane realization and normal experience remains, in a sense and to some degree, like the plays of our simian typist.

                In Henry Head's interpretation of semantic aphasia we find, however, concepts of neural function and of its integration and impairment that help to convey a hypothesis of grave personality disorder thoroughly screened by the intact peripheral operation of all ordinary abilities.

                In relatively abstract or circumscribed situations, such as the psychiatric examination or the trial in court, these abilities do not show impairment but more or less automatically demonstrate an outer sanity unquestionable in all its aspects and at all levels accessible to the observer. That this technical sanity is little more than a mimicry of true sanity cannot be proved at such levels.

                Only when the subject sets out to conduct his life can we get evidence of how little his good theoretical understanding means to him, of how inadequate and insubstantial are the apparently normal basic emotional reactions and motivations convincingly portrayed and enunciated but existing in little more than two dimensions.

                What we take as evidence of his sanity will not significantly or consistently influence his behavior. Nor does it represent real intention within, the degree of his emotional response, or the quality of his personal experience much more reliably than some grammatically well-formed, clear, and perhaps verbally sensible statement produced vocally by the autonomous neural apparatus of a patient with semantic aphasia can be said to represent such a patient's thought or carry a meaningful communication of it.

                Let us assume tentatively that the psychopath is, in this sense, semantically disordered. We have said that his outer functional aspect masks or disguises something quite different within, concealing behind a perfect mimicry of normal emotion, fine intelligence, and social responsibility a grossly disabled and irresponsible personality. Must we conclude that this disguise is a mere pretence voluntarily assumed and that the psychopath's essential dysfunction should be classed as mere hypocrisy instead of psychiatric defect or deformity?



                www.cassiopaea.org/cass/pol...ewski.htm
                Political Ponerology: A Science on The Nature of Evil adjusted for Political Purposes
                by Andrew M. Lobaczewski

                "Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern for the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken.

                And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools.

                Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless.

                You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience, that they seldom even guess at your condition.

                In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world.

                You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences will most likely remain undiscovered.

                How will you live your life?

                What will you do with your huge and secret advantage, and with the corresponding handicap of other people (conscience)?

                The answer will depend largely on just what your desires happen to be, because people are not all the same. Even the profoundly unscrupulous are not all the same. Some people - whether they have a conscience or not - favor the ease of inertia, while others are filled with dreams and wild ambitions. Some human beings are brilliant and talented, some are dull-witted, and most, conscience or not, are somewhere in between. There are violent people and nonviolent ones, individuals who are motivated by blood lust and those who have no such appetites. [...] "


                www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopa...opath.htm

                Our world seems to have been invaded by individuals whose approach to life and love is so drastically different from what has been the established norm for a very long time that we are ill- prepared to deal with their tactics of what Robert Canup calls "plausible lie." As he demonstrates, this philosophy of the "plausible lie" has overtaken the legal and administrative domains of our world, turning them into machines in which human beings with real emotions are destroyed.

                The recent movie, "The Matrix," touched a deep chord in society because it exemplified this mechanistic trap in which so many people find their lives enmeshed, and from which they are unable to extricate themselves because they believe that everyone around them who "looks human" is, in fact, just like them - emotionally, spiritually, and otherwise.

                Take, for example, the "legal argument" as explicated by Robert Canup www.hal-pc.org/~rcanup/index.html in his work on the "Socially Adept Psychopath." The legal argument seems to be at the foundation of our society. This amounts to little more than con-artistry: the one who is the slickest at using the structure for convincing a group of people of something, is the one who is believed. Because this "legal argument" system has been slowly installed as part of our culture, when it invades our personal lives, we normally do not recognize it immediately.


                Alan Watt talks about it here:
                "PREDATORY PATHOCRACY, PSYCHOPATHY AND THEIR PREY -
                THE PASSIVE PUBLIC"
                www.cuttingthroughthematrix.ca/tr...tml



                This is material the new age crowd and "regular" people don't want to get into/believe since it puts a bit of a damper on their world view, where "leaders" are supposed to be there for the better good of them, projecting all their hopes/wishes on the the next puppet/candidate who shall lead them out of this mess, or the heavily deluded new agers who think just by "sending love", "shooting balls of of love and light" at the leaders, that they will see the light eventually, or that 2012 will take care of it all as everyone is getting enlightened just by wating and focusing on "positive thoughts", ignoring anything "negative" a la "The Secret", believing everyhting that comes down the new age pipeline in form of "gurus", "Ascended masters" or all kinds of "channeled messages" which are being believed without questioning.
                The sole fact that it is "channeled" seems to give it validity and people justify the truth about such sources becasue it "resonates" with them. Well, most christians really vibe with the Bible and the iteral words in this book also "resonates" with the fundamental christian. No different mindset, both blinded by belief and wishful thinking. However, as I said somwhere else there are good channeled sources out there, however one needs to be very discerning, carefull and reserach/backup any material out there. The new age world is filled with disinfo. As a matter of fact, there are more psychopaths with love and light messages in the new age arena than anywhere else.
                • Unsu...
                   
                  so we'll forget bout the beams of love then.. so what do you reckon.. fight fire with water? i mean fire? how best to go about a revolution?

                  "It has been said that a monkey endowed with sufficient longevity would, if he continuously pounded the keys of a typewriter, finally strike by pure chance the very succession of keys to reproduce all the plays of Shakespeare." haha that is one of the strangest things i've ever read :D i mean, come on....

                  like most people suffering from mental illness, psychopaths have formulated their own rigid frameworks, their belief systems, from which to operate.. it is like their own personal military tank.. it is keen, cunning and acute. because they have been programmed, or programmed themselves, to believe that they are predators. that they are invincible. and most probably because they once saw the world as a dangerous threatening environment in which they must protect themselves. a vicious cycle of perception and behaviour. many leaders.. from many institutions.. seem unyielding because they are machinated for domination. they present themselves as an organising system.. a control network.. a one-way channel.. rather than an organic system of inter-dependence between their lofty position and the ones they are meant to serve.. their ideologies are impenetrable because their [dogmatic] rhetoric protects them like a fortress.. it's almost impossible to argue with rigid belief systems.. religions, politics..

                  so how to storm a bastille? figuratively speaking

                  i wish my pc was fast enough to watch thezeitgeist.. please disregard what i've said if it doesn't apply..
                  also is there somewhere online i could read a review of this film or something?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    "so we'll forget bout the beams of love then.. so what do you reckon.. fight fire with water? i mean fire? how best to go about a revolution?"

                    before starting any revolution or before acting at all, one should know what is actually going on. Knowledge is Power and the greatest catalyst for change. Knowledge leads to awareness whcih leads to change. Self-knowledge is the most importan knowledge of all.
                    Belief is not knowledge. Most of the new age "love and light" dogma is based on belief and wishful thinking, having no substance or impact for any constructive change. The new age arena is polluted with fake "good feeling" messages whcih are there to distract the seeker, to make him/her a blind believer just like the folks who follow Jesus.

                    as posted above:

                    "There is far more to this world than taught in our schools, shown in the media, or proclaimed by the church and state. Most of mankind lives in a hypnotic trance, taking to be reality what is instead a twisted simulacrum of reality, a collective dream in which values are inverted, lies are taken as truth, and tyranny is accepted as security. They enjoy their ignorance and cling tightly to the misery that gives them identity.

                    Fortunately, some are born with spiritual immune systems that sooner or later give rejection to the illusory worldview grafted upon them from birth through social conditioning. They begin sensing that something is amiss, and start looking for answers. Inner knowledge and anomalous outer experiences show them a side of reality others are oblivious to, and so begins their journey of awakening. Each step of the journey is made by following the heart instead of following the crowd and by choosing knowledge over ignorance.

                    Knowledge is the key to unlocking our potential. It gives us the self-determination, responsibility, and power necessary to cast off the chains of covert oppression. Knowledge is therefore the greatest protector, for it also gives us foresight to impeccably handle the challenges of life and, most importantly, to sidestep the traps on the path to awakening. The more you know of higher truths and apply what you know, the more you begin operating under higher laws that transcend the limitations of the lower."


                    so start digging down the rabbit hole of reality and gain knowledge not based on beliefs or wishfull thinking. Question every source and use your heart and intellect alike, activate all centers, logic and intuition togther, not blinded by belief, social conditioning/programming.....actually the first step is to be utterly aware of one's social conditioning. Wihou that awareness you have not free will but are slaves to a programming/belief system whcih has been implated in you to keep you from the truth.

                    "The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it. "

                    "The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us.You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work... when you go to church... when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth." - Morpheus "The Matrix"


                    Interesting thing is that we are moving our of the age of pisces ("I believe") into the age of aquarius ("I know")

                    • Unsu...
                       
                      I saddled up my pony right
                      and rode into the ghostly night
                      it was wide, wide open, wide, wide open

                      I left the only home I knew
                      I stayed alive and I found you
                      now I take you where the water's deep
                      and make the air you breathe so sweet

                      but is it not enough to be complete? please?
                      let me give you everything you need, please?

                      we found the way, we found the street
                      directions sweat under the sheets
                      and I let you have it, let you have it

                      but it can be a lonely place
                      desire comes, desire fades
                      there's a bright one caught your fancy eye
                      it's okay so long as you stay mine

                      and I'm so number one that it's a shame, a shame
                      that you let other numbers in the game

                      now I suffer for your hungry eye
                      oh why must it see more than mine?
                      it's a light you're after, 'cause light moves faster

                      but when I ride again into the night
                      my torch will shoot flames strong and bright
                      and my absence will remind you of
                      how tough it is to be in love

                      and it's not what I think it's what you say, hey
                      and it works great for you to have your way, hey

                      but if the west can be a desperate place
                      you search all day for just a taste
                      of the cold, cold water, cold, cold water

                      and if you think I've gone too long
                      listen the sky will sing this song
                      as it burns up all the memories
                      that flow like water out of me
    • Nick...who has "roundly refuted it"?

      i have heard eye witness accounts of people who were working in the basement of the towers that day, who had worked there for 20 years and knew the place inside and out, who witnessed the explosions, thought it was boilers or something, and then only moments LATER did they hear something hit the building on the upper floors...

      the fact that the buildings COULD NOT have fallen the way they did from planes alone HAS BEEN roundly refuted
      • Z
        Z
        offline 39
        i'm suprised that some people here still think it was arab terrorists who pulled off 911. i would have thought that on a place like tribe that people would be more informed.

        all you have to do is open your eyes and look. the buildings were blown up. the evidence is right in front of your face.

        open your eyes.

        and watch.
  • Hey people,

    Welcome to Postmodern Times, a series of short animated films presenting new ideas about global consciousness and techniques for social and ecological transformation. Our first episode, "Toward 2012", introduces the project, explaining concepts from the best-selling book, "2012: The Return of Quetzalcoatl" (Tarcher/Penguin, 2006) by Daniel Pinchbeck, in the author's own voice. Future segments will focus on shamanism, sustainability, alternative energy systems, the Mayan Calendar, quantum physics and synchronicity, human sexuality, and a host of other subjects.

    www.postmoderntimes.com

    "The deed creates the doer"
    Nietzsche

    <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="</param><embed" title="www.youtube.com/v/G7NOOBaZ...m><embed">www.youtube.com/v/G7NOOBaZ...m><embed src="www.youtube.com/v/G7NOOBaZBjw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425"
    • I just got the $7 DVD! It's fantastic! I can even show it to "on the line" X-ians and they get it!
      • It really needs to have subtitles/language in Spanish and other languages. There are so many people who need the collective shift but who do not have sufficient English to watch and integrate the whole film.
        Somebody out there works with PCs and can do the subtitle programmes that are available for PC. Then upload the same film with the subtitles back to google.
        Alternatively the makers should do it and increase their sales and impact a million times!
        The message is not only for English language speakers!
        • Horus, crucified???? I don't know where they got that idea from, but it certainly wasn't from historic records. A lot of the attributes he describe for Horus are complete bollocks. Which is a shame really because it cast doubt of the validity of the rest of the documentary.
          • "cast doubt of the validity of the rest of the documentary."

            I don't think so!
            • Well, they present sources. I'm not saying Horus was crucified, for sure. I don't know that honestly, but claiming what they say is bollocks, without any way of backing that statement up, doesn't really add or take anything away.

              If you could present some sources that say otherwise, I'd definitley be interested in checking them out.

              -N
              • news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6933336.stm
                JP Morgan is releasing gas again! Is this similar to the false alerts issued when the first depression took place? Causing our country to go further in debt is their business... Isn't that in zeigeist?
                • "If you could present some sources that say otherwise, I'd definitley be interested in checking them out."

                  Thats the thing. You won't find any sources that state Horus was crucified, because there are none. Just like you won't find any sources stating he was baptized, born of a virgin, started his work at 30, was a fisherman and had 12th disciples. They do not exist. It was said he could raise the dead, that being the only miracle he preformed. Walking on water was not among them. In fact he nearly drowned early on in his 'life'.

                  There are enough similarities without making these fasle claims, which is why i can't understand why the included them. Mithraism probably has far more in common with Christianity then the story of Horus. This is because the Romans took attributes of Mithra and gave them to Jesus so people would convert more easily. Such as his birthday. The birth date of jesus (if he existed) was never recorded, and is not mentioned in the bible. What is said is shepherds and sheep were out in the fields at the time. Which makes it highly unlikely it was December 25th. They just took that from Mithraism. by the way I'm not a Christian in any way shape or form. I'm not trying to defend Jesus because i believe in him. Just the fact that parts of the similarities are false.

                  "cast doubt of the validity of the rest of the documentary."

                  "I don't think so!"

                  well it should do. I'm not saying i don't agree with the documentary. For the most part i do. but the fact that bits are stated as truth, that are not, makes it easier for people to it pick apart. Which is a shame because a lot of it rings true with me.



                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    From their Clarification page, although I absolutely see your point Craig, as I'm a natural skeptic too. Wasn't sure if you had seen/read this...

                    "The astrotheological and literary basis for the culmination of the Bible is, of course, a heated discussion, as it often directly interferes with the very identity of the believers of the Judeo-Christian Theology. The core of the arguments presented by those who think the information in Part 1 is unfounded or interpolated, is that the sources that I have used are by poor scholars, who lack association with "primary" sources. I want to clarify this issue by discussing one of my sources, the work of Gerald Massey, who was an Egyptologist who died in 1907. His work was in conjunction with a very prominent Egyptologist and Antiquary, Samuel Birch, an expert on hieroglyphics. Gerald Massey's gift for interpreting metaphoric literature, coupled with Birch's genius for understanding Hieroglyphics led to profound and controversial discoveries regarding information contained in such works as the Egyptian Book for the Dead, The Coffin Texts and the Pyramid texts. These discoveries can be found in Massey masterpieces such as Ancient Egypt, The Light of the World, and A Book of Beginnings. It's worth pointing out that hieroglyphics were not fully understood as a language until the 18/19th centuries, keeping its communications a secret for many 100s of years. Therefore, the staggering Egyptian parallels to the Cult of Equinoctial Christolatry (Christianity) were not well known in the modern age until that time. To understand that the information found isn't just a few points here and there that seem similar, I have uploaded an Appendix from Ancient Egypt, The Light of the World, which reflects a list of Egyptian mythological characteristics which were basically Christianized in the Canonical Gospels and the Book of Revelation. "

                    www.zeitgeistmovie.com/GMappendix.htm

                    Is the link he provides.

                    Interesting stuff I think, and doesn't seem to outlandish to be true. But I won't be swayed to believe flat out one point of view or another, as I'm sure you know beliefs can be quite limiting. ;)

                    Be interested to hear what you think.
                    -nate
                    • Yeah, it doesn't seem to outlandish to me either, based on what information they provide you with. Trouble is, they seem to be the only two sources that argue all of these likenesses. While mainstream historians agree with only a proportion of them. This doesn't mean there wrong of course, but it should count for something.

                      The thing with Judeo-Christian Theology is, it's been known to incorporate pagan influences for a long time. The only people who will disagree with this, are Christians themselves. Pretty much every major religion on this planet has been changed over time, with bits and bobs added here and there. Either taking from other religions or parts being removed altogether. This is one of the main reasons I'm not religious (the other being, it sounding all a bit fairy tale like). Nor do i have any 'new age' beliefs. Like you said these things can make a person very closed minded, and cause war on a larger scale. I would even consider science as a belief system in it's self. The religion of the modern people. Though science does an awesome job at explaining many things, it also should be taken with a pinch of salt. What is fact according to science one day, can change the next day.

                      Anyway... getting back to the point.....Houris being baptized, born of a virgin, starting his work at 30, being a fisherman, having 12th disciples, and the walking on water thing, are very bold claims to make. Attributes I'm very skeptical of being in the Myth of Houris. A friend of mine studies maths at Cambridge, so I've ask him to pass this document (the link you posted) to a history professor there. He should have far better idea just how creditable these claims are. This Gerald Massey dude could have been some crackpot Egyptologist trying to make a name for his self, for all i know. Only problem is, this won't be till the start of September. his off till his new term starts. =(

                      I agree, Christianity and Jesus are extremely likely to be false. Thats not the issue i have, just with some of the 'facts' they choose to get the point across. I do like to look at things from all angels though, so I'd like to mention a few things from the other side of the fence.

                      The coming of Jesus was prophesied long before it came to be. If that was the case this story would be floating about before he turned up, and people (cultures) would have gave it there own identity, while keeping certain things the same. Also if you believe in the Adam and Eve type stories, and there are many of them all around the globe. This would also make sense as to how they came to be passed down and spread across the world. One more thing, disproving Christianity doesn't necessarily mean Jesus was fake. Just that the mythical Jesus in the form of Christianity was fake. Jesus as a historical figure could still be argued. He could have been a mahatma ghandi type figure of his day, going around claiming he was the son of god, or maybe just spreading a spiritual message in which he was killed for. Then people started a religion around him choosing to incorporate predating religions to form a new one. who knows eh? I certainly don't.


                      • Well said Craig, you pretty much summed up my thoughts on more than one subject there. And I kept the crackpot theory in mind too when I read what they had posted about Gerald Massey. It would be cool to see if that professor follows up with your friend and what he has to say.

                        -N
                        • And does all this pedantic antics mean that the overall message of the film is wrong? NO!

                          You can pick on certain points as much as you like. The scam of the churchian story has been exposed many times by many learned people, and is still being exposed with each day that passes.
                          One question is 'why would anyone want to support the lies anymore?'

                          The core of the whole story is that the church is based on pagan mythology and is a control structure that is part of the enslaving of humanity. And the fact that the church has aligned itself with fascists, wars, pogroms, genocide, discrimination, lies, paedophilia, etc. should be enough.
                          And all for a prophet who was quite different to his portrayal, whose recorded life was mostly symbolic, who considered women his equal, who had offspring, who was an Essene and closer to Buddhism than the corrupt, masonic, hierarchy-based pack of lies that has murdered millions in His name.
                          The P2 scandal revealed that the church is working directly with Mafia and corrupted Illuminati governments and secret orders to subvert democracy and human rights around the planet. It is no coincidence that Bush, Blair and their friends are all claiming to be 'christians'! It is no coincidence that Ratzinger was a Nazi!

                          Zeitgeist means 'Spirit of the Age', and does show very well what the current 'spirit' is about!
                          • Unsu...
                             

                            The currency of truth in this age is not integrity - it's quantity.

                            If it's repeated by enough people then it becomes 'true'. The Interent makes people lazy.

                            Go back to the sources and find out for yourself.
                            • Which is what I think Craig and I were discussing. I don't think either of us was taking much away from the rest of the film, we were just interested in some of the claims made in the first part of the film. Don't get me wrong, I think the film is excellent, I've ordered my own copy and look forward to getting it out there some more.
                              • Unsu...
                                 
                                The film is OK - I thought it lacked credibility when it got onto the 9/11 part.
                                • "lacked credibility" - what?

                                  All kinds of people have been making films about this subject and presenting on it for years. Michael Ruppert was warning about the event before it happened and has produced loads of documentary evidence of the extent of the scam, in his sites and in the film 'Truth and lies of 9/11'.
                                  There are many of us who knew that the 911 event was a deliberate act by people directly sponsored by the US government and the elite that controls them, on the day it happened! And all the masses of evidence and testimony available only proves that it was so!
                                  In the film British politician Michael Meacher says that the leader of the 911 'terrorists' was directly funded by the Pakistani government and that this was deemed irrelevant by the 911 commission. How can anyone ignore that the US-backed Pakistan government funded the 911 event?
                                  How could any honest person deny that the fighters were deliberately grounded to allow the attack to take place?
                                  What about the numbers of firemen who heard masses of explosions in the buildings and reported them? Isn't is as obvious as it can ever be that there was controlled demolition, especially of building 7?
                                  It is a fact that Osama Bin Laden was treated in a US military hospital only weeks before the attacks, and the whole Bin Laden family are close friends of the Bush family.

                                  What is "lacking credibility" is anyone who attempts to debunk what most people know to be true!
                                  • Unsu...
                                     

                                    Well conspiracy mentality is like that. It feeds on itself and creates 'believers'. And once you start looking for associations - well whatya know - they appear.

                                    My experience has been that much of it is so called 'facts' that prove to be unverifiable (but if they are repeated long enough they become defacto 'true'). There are some good sites that address the factual errors in a number of the pro conspiracy 9/11 videos. Unfortunately, with the conspiracy mentality these can be dismissed as 'Government disinformation' and the like.

                                    Can't you see? You get locked into a mindset and now you can't, indeed don't want to, get out?

                                    What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves.
        • Re: ZEITGEIST - Spanish subtitles for Pt 2

          Thu, August 16, 2007 - 1:44 AM
          • Re: ZEITGEIST - Spanish subtitles for Pt 2

            Fri, August 17, 2007 - 11:41 AM
            I just want to add this.

            My mother was in lower manhattan on 9/11. She's a sorta left-leaning baby-boomer who's mostly apolitical and has never voted in an election out of sheer lack of interest. She doesn't believe in conspiracy theories, considers herself a good Catholic, etc...But this is her account.

            She watched Bldg. 7 collapse. She swears it was an inside job. As she watched the building burn, a police officer (or someone?) told her and others to move back from the building. What they said was "We're taking the building down."

            Not, "the building is coming down," but "We are taking the building down." As soon as everyone was out of the way on the street, she heard explosions and then the building collapsed like a controlled demolition. She swears up and down it was a controlled demolition.

            My question is, if 9/11 was an inside job, it was something that clearly would have taken many participants. Someone would have eventually talked. It seems like it's too hard of a secret to keep quiet.
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: ZEITGEIST - Spanish subtitles for Pt 2

              Fri, August 17, 2007 - 2:01 PM
              "My question is, if 9/11 was an inside job, it was something that clearly would have taken many participants. Someone would have eventually talked. It seems like it's too hard of a secret to keep quiet."

              Not hard at all, quite simple actually. Besides the sheeple policing themselvs and each other by not daring to question the official story and not being able to become aware of their own conditioned view of reality and bypassing their belief systems, there is another point:
              The biggest misconception people still have to this day is that the people "on top" or the "powers that be" PTB have the same mind set/way of thinking/conscience as the average joe/jane. Some people even still to this day believe that the government has the best interest for the people in mind.
              Far fromt the truth. Look into the characteristcs of psychopathy, the lack of any guilt/compassion/love and not even being able to experience such emotions/sates of being at any time. The PTB, the folks behind this great piece of art and deceptions see you and I and the masses as cattle that needs to be controlled for the sheer joy of controlling. It's not even about money or greed anymore. It's the opposite of light, pure ego wihout being able to access the higher centers whatsoever. It's the new age lie that all will just awaken and love and light will reign over this world just by doing nothing and bathing in the "photon belt". It's quite a usefull illusion as it keeps people from acting and speaking up and it works in favor of the ones telling you these lies, including new age lies.
              You won't hear anyonne who was involved coming forward and admitting it, just like you didn't hear any insider coming forward when JFK got killed by the CIA. So don't wait for it. Our silence about it works in their favor.
              Look into Political Ponerology, Psychopathy and Organic Portals to get a better grip of understanding the "predators mind".
              Some topis about that had been posted here in the past. Use the search button.

              also here:
              www.cassiopaea.org/cass/pol...ewski.htm
              www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopa...opath.htm
              www.cassiopaea.org/cass/org...rtals.htm


              ...and by the way, the real conspiracy THEORY is the officla story, it is a theory that holds no ground and cannot be proven by facts. People buy into it without digging/thinking for themselves.

              • Re: ZEITGEIST - Spanish subtitles for Pt 2

                Sun, August 19, 2007 - 2:57 AM
                Seems like there are plenty of sheeple around these days!

                It amazes me to hear anyone wonder 'if' it was an inside job, whether the airforce were told to stand down (how some 'people in a cave' in Afghanistan got NORAD to ground its planes for 40 minutes of extreme emergency), whether there was a controlled demolition, whether the 'terrorists' were funded by the US government via its ally Pakistan, whether most of the so-called 'terrorists' were still alive and living elsewhere after the event, whether Israelis were told not to go to work the day that it happened (and for about a week before) and had repeatedly warned about just such an attack to the US government, whether there were exercises practising for just such an event on the day it happened, whether Iraq ever had any WMDs and had any vague connection with any terrorists that didn't fly planes into the towers, whether the Bin Laden family are close friends of the Bush family and were flown out of the USA when all other flights were cancelled, whether Osama Bin Laden was directly sponsored by the CIA and US military.
                To wonder about even that small amount of evidence defies logic and reason and suggests either serious naievity ("conditioned view of reality") or a debunking role in bringing cynicism and doubt to a discussion.
                But in a land where so many people repeatedly vote for criminals like Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and all, it seems that 'dumb redneck' or liberal "but surely we live in a democracy" is almost the norm!.
                Worse still is the European elite's role in the story here and the complicity with global criminal activities of the masons and their friends. We know it ain't 'theory' because many of us have had all the information we need for decades. We've been watching and warning of such events, and who is creating them, for a very long time!

                Oh is that the time? Cull o'clock? I must go!
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: ZEITGEIST - Spanish subtitles for Pt 2

                  Sun, August 19, 2007 - 5:47 AM

                  To and fro we go

                  in a Chinese finger trap for the mind

                  Beware those that 'know'

                  There is nothing as dangerous

                  As one who believes they have 'The Truth'.

                  The Wise know that there is no knowing and no truth

                  With No Effort we reach the right place.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: ZEITGEIST

                    Sun, August 19, 2007 - 11:32 AM
                    How do you 'know' what you are saying?
                    There we have the purpose of such intervention, to dissuade and disrupt, to turn away people from this fine film.
                    There is 'nothing more dangerous' than a subjective view of reality. Of course no one has been murdered in Iraq. No children are being abducted and murdered in their thousands, there is no 'conspiracy'. Millions of humans were never killed, no 'witches', no Tasmanians, no Indios, no native Americans, no Jews, no Gypsies, no Poles, no Vietnamese, etc etc. And if they did according to the Secret they 'attracted' whatever happened to them anyway!

                    The wise 'know' that there is absolute truth and it is called natural law. Within such law are indications of choice with consequences. The truly wise 'know' that most humans readily perceive 2% of reality, that humans are here in their present form to relate to the greater reality, to consciously participate in the grand design. In that participation is the way to 'make more beautiful', to 'leave better than found', to 'bear witness' to the breaking of natural laws and be keepers of that 'truth'.
                    Physical form enables us humans to be vessels for the 'sacred marriage', to receive light and breath in order to experience reality, to interact positively with non-physical consciousness, to be creative on many levels simultaneously.

                    No effort? Sounds like someone who relies on others too much. As the wisest people know, there will come a time when all the current structures fall apart and who you really are and what you can actually do is what will determine survival.
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: ZEITGEIST

                      Mon, August 20, 2007 - 1:50 PM
                      Psi, after all these montha and years (for me) at the 2012 tribe, we should have learned not to enage with any trolls. It's waste of time and energy to question or debate/argue with trolls who have nothing contructive to bring to the table whatsoever, nor do they realize how they are stuck in a subjective conditioned view of reality based on Beliefs and limited/suppressed consciousness, stuck in a tunnel vision of the neurotic ego, judging anything right away, withtout having looked into any of it deeper beyond the superficlal layers of reality, thinking they "know" it al and have "figured it all out", not being able to get the themselves out of the way when digging down the rabbit hole of reality.

                      Trolls come here and go every so often. The best thing to do is to not pay any attention to them and just keep the focus on constructive reserach and thought exchnage and not arguing about subjective beliefs. Well, actually most trolls probably don't know the difference betwen subjectivity and objectivity, nor are they aware of their own conditioning/brainwashing, but just repeat any new age/philosophical slogans they picked up on they way and repeat like a christian repeats what he heard form the preacher. And there is a shit load of new agers out ther these days who repeat phrases from "The Secret" as if it's the new religion, unquestioned, just because "it sounds so good", like sheep with no minds on their own. Follow the leader, ignore anything dark/unpleasant and everythign will turn out fine, without effort!! Yeah right.
                      Kudos and much respect to the ones who infiltrated the new age arena with all this gullish wishy-washy love and light messages and which turns people into submissive sheep who are way easier to control /manipulate than people who actually look through the conditioning that comes down the pipeline (ESPECIALLY from the new age arena) and realize the work that needs to be done in order to awaken/ascend (call it whatever you may like) and transcend the matrix. The way it's looking now, there will be enslavement by the people's own will. It's an amazing set up, where the masses are building their own prision out of free will.
                      Anyone who have had done journeys with the right dose ( meaning a high dose which anihilates the ego) plant medicines (ayahuasca, san pedro, mushrooms, peyote, etc.... as well as DMT, etc..) knows that the dark needs to be confronted before the light can enter, be it one's own shadow.drakness or the shadow of the collective. Nature can teach us a lot about reality through these plants but not necessary if one truly understands and integrates the mechanism of making the Unconscious conscious.

                      As Carl Gustav Jung said :
                      "One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious."

                      Fun times ahead. It's gonna be a rather rude awakening, especially for the new agers who think by 2012 the golden age will dawn and the aliens will land to save us/them. Oh boy!
  • i posted this the other day to some other sites. It makes me wonder, we may think we know bleep, but bleepin is only half the story here.
    9 11, i would never forget the news that morning within 2 hrs of the planes hitting the towers, the ABC CNN NBC all reported a complete list of terrosist suspects. I thought it was werid........and than this made me think, wow, they must ve been waiting for this to happen to be that prepared with a list........and to learn that some suspects werent even the ones? There are so many wholes....in the 9 11 story that its boggling.....why would you want to imagine your govt, taking out 3,000 people of its own? Well, when they want to take away your basic rights as human and to propel the war machine of fear, tyranny and destruction on the Gaia its not very hard to imagine,,factor in the myth of 2012, and a very intresting thought occurs.....that right now we are getting ready to enter the house of tezcatlipoca, the god of darkness, in times past according to Cahlmann Jenkins,,,,very dark things happend,,,we are at the end of an aeon and the old of god duality will fight to keep things as they are, in a constant struggle...........yet rest assured come 2011-2012.....dulaity slips back into unity...join the reveloution of weapons of Mass Empathy ,,,and spread your love, and live it love, love life and ride it......" have some diginity im a Human Being!!"
    • Re: Subjective trolls

      Tue, August 21, 2007 - 1:57 AM
      Iraq: Over 1 Million Killed Since U.S. Invasion

      The number is shocking and sobering. It's at least 10 times greater than most estimates cited in the US media, yet it is based on the only scientifically valid study of violent Iraqi deaths caused by the U.S.-led invasion of March 2003.

      www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/...s.html


      "No truth"? "No effort"? Sounds like a republican brat who learned a bit of Zen!
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Subjective trolls

        Tue, August 21, 2007 - 12:07 PM

        You are entitled to your reality tunnel and I am entitled to mine.

        Because I don't agree with you doesn't make me a 'troll' or 'sheeple' or 'republican brat'

        Why is it necessary to use personal invective to make a point?

        Why do you feel it necessary to dehumanise other people in this way?

        I am no threat to you.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Subjective trolls

          Tue, August 21, 2007 - 3:04 PM
          wow.. i'm really saddened by this statement;

          'we should have learned not to enage with any trolls"

          where is your compassion? do you think your experiences and knowledge make you a better person than another? do you call yourself a teacher?

          i'm not taking sides here, i just dont like to such finger pointing in a tribe that is supposed to help people understand the next level or whatever it is.

          no body can claim to know the truth and we should not dwell on the past but rather come to a conclusion on how to make the future better.

          peace
          hd

          • Re: Subjective trolls

            Thu, August 23, 2007 - 1:55 AM
            In this day-and-age how can anyone trust the motives of their rulers? How can anyone suspend the belief that those in power will do whatever it takes to keep control including uspeakeable, terrorist atrocities against their own population? What overwhelming evidence exists to warrent blind faith in the current governments of the world? If you're not suspicious by now, then you've got an agenda........
      • Re: Subjective trolls

        Thu, August 23, 2007 - 7:21 PM
        "Sounds like a republican brat..."

        Psi, you are yet again resorting to ad hominem attacks. You seem to be oblivious to the damage this inflicts on your crediblity.

        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
        • the boys who cry 'troll'

          Thu, August 23, 2007 - 8:06 PM
          yeah really! ad hominem attacks, calling people trolls and other such dodgy behaviors seem to be the standard solution for those here who are incredibly attached to their beliefs, ideas and so called knowledge.

          it sure gets old... and you are absolutely correct Hoopes... this does huge damage to their credibility.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

            Thu, August 23, 2007 - 9:39 PM
            I hope you guys are listening to Hoopes and Davey ( I know it's automatic reaction to blow off Hoopes )

            I think they make a point here

            Psi, I think you're a good man with strong convictions, and I resonate with you on many levels, but for that reason I often find myself cringing at what you write because where we value things in common I sense damage being done to the credibility of those things as Hoopes and Davey point out.

            and it goes for Bernhard too. It really does seem like you guys are really self righteous and I hope rather than coming back with "oh I'm not self righteous, I'm actually a laid back super cool dude yadda yadda..." you actually reflect on ways you can improve the impressions you make on other. You can disagree and probly do but just please think about it.

            peace
            • Unsu...
               

              Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

              Fri, August 24, 2007 - 10:42 AM
              couple comments on the accusations:

              Yes, I am and can be self righteous at time and I do have an ego, just like anybody else on here, without excpetion. I'm also quite laid back and don't hate anyone...lol.

              However no one really seemed to understand the resaon for my "troll" post, whcih was obvioulsyu directed at Jeri, simply because his statements had nothing to contribute to the essense/depth of this topic and is obvioulsy just based on his personal subjective belief system.

              The integrity of serious reserach and objective investigation of any given topic has lost its power a long time ago on this tribe. It got infiltrated with wishy washy new agers and wishy washy love and light messages ( with people who really have no idea about the true meaning of love and light but throw around words that are empty and shallow in the end, which they picked up in some new age literature some time ago becasue they "sound" and "feel" good), resembling more a fundamental christian mindset based on belief than a curious mind that likes to find out truth.

              In regards to hoopes, he and I have been arguing/talking and discussing on this board and behind the scenes for years now and there are things we agree upon and other things we could discuss until we die and won't come to a resolution. I certainly don't blow him off automatically, but his neurotic sceptism based on his personal beliefs is quite obvious.

              In regards to davidsjelly, this man/guy/boy has very obviously some personal issues with me as he has been trying to attack me since day one and always comes out if something is said against me but hides away if I'm being supported in my "arguments". So, in that sense I cannot take him or his posts serious at all, since what his doing is an obvious psychological subjective projection and he seems to have quite some anger in him behind is mask/facade of the "hugging saint". Like I said before, I suggest for him to look into some basic Jungian psychology. Shadow work is the name of the game.

              The reason why psi and me start to come across as "self-rightious" and so on is simply becasue people here don't seem to listen/read/reserach or cannot get their subjective personal view/belief system out of the way, nor are many people here actually aware of their own conditioning, be it through offical culture or all that nonsense that people take in through new age "teachings" without questioning.
              Self-knowledge and self-awarensess is key, something that hardly exists on this tribe, and that is the basis for any objective inquiry into any given topic, being aware of one's own conditioning.

              So anyway, nothing new, this has been goign on for a long time and it does get boring. I'm already hardly on here anymore becasue it is time now to really put knowledge into action and not just sit around and argue about beliefs. I'm not even remotely interested in beliefs or subjective opinions based on a conditoned view of reality. That won't help in the times to come.
              However, realizing how many people are actually delluded and conditioned through this new religion called "new age" where people actually believe that just focusing on "love and light" (without actually having a true understanding of what that means) and giving hugs we will enter the golden age effortless, just by focusing on the "postive", the "negative" will just vanish, etc.....I have to say, oh boy......the matrix is well in place and people are building their own prison out of free will.

              It's also funny that I'm being told now to reflect on my words, how un-compassionate I am, etc, etc (most of the time I feel like I stumbled into a nest of fundamental christians who are only basing their arguments on bliefs and dogma).......and at the same time most people on here who call themselves "aware" and "conscious" humans are far away form being aware or conscious, but more caught in their own subjectivity, mistaking beliefs for facts and so on, not even being able to look through their own conditionin and go beyond the surface/appearance of things.
              Since you asked me, I ask you back, are you REALLY aware of your own conditioning, your masks, your beliefs you took on (whose beliefs are they anyway ?). Do you REALLY know yourself and who do you think you are? And please do yourself a favor and don't answer these question by reapeating some memorized new age slogans, which are just part of the conditioning.
              I'm not asking anyone specifically, but everyone at once.


              But no worries, You won't have to deal with my "self-rightousness" much longer. As I said before, it becomes more a waste of time being on here than really doing some contructive and objective inquiry into certain topics.
              I just got back from Peru, an experience which no words can possibly describe (especially after having done a San Pedro ceremony on Machu Piccu) and I'm getting ready to spend a coule of months down there later this year, maybe longer, so my focus is else where need to integrate/apply what I have experienced while iwas there. This does take effort and work.......btw, anyone who is interested in spending some time down there (and doing medicine journeys with some real shamans, no new age wanna-be neo-shamans), let me know and I can help you out (sincere inquires only) ............

              My focus and intention is as always on truth, love, integrity and healing.

              See you on the other side.
              • Unsu...
                 

                Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                Fri, August 24, 2007 - 11:24 AM
                B u just don't quit! You sound incredibly bitter! As to the people who "really have no idea about the true meaning of love and light " at least they are going in the right direction. They may not have the time or money to take trips to Peru and educate themselves. You should consider yourself lucky and be humbled by your experience rather than foisting your egotistical (and totally incongruous with your practice) opinions of others upon us.

                Every thought adds something, even if it's nothing to you.. why would you waste your time arguing about it?

                For every person blindly following, there is an equally blind leader.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                  Fri, August 24, 2007 - 1:40 PM
                  I'm very humbeled by my experiences and I'm not bitter at all, more a frustration where my own ego-issues come forth more easily.


                  "Every thought adds something, even if it's nothing to you.. why would you waste your time arguing about it?"

                  But that's my point. I'm not interested in arguments or debates, but objective inquiry/discussion without any subjective issues/bias involved.
                  I've tried it many times here with various and topics over the years and some people always tend to morph them into a completely subjective argument based on belief or neurotic sceptism. You're right, every thought adds something, but sometimes it adds nonsense and if thoughts become noise, it just adds junk and it becomes a distraction and the thread is lost, stuck in a loop of subjective opinions.
                  Personally I just need to re-focus my attention and really integrate that what I've learned/expereinced. With all my respect, this board here gets always stuck at some point, as if the "collective" of the members cannot go any deeper than they let themselves go, or bypass the obvious conditioning.
                  It doesn't mean that I know any better than others, I just have to realize what works for me and what not. I'm a seeker and I'm curious. I'm not interested in beliefs or opinions, just truth about our reality, not wishfull thinking or dogma and there is way too much of the latter on here, sorry to say.

                  "For every person blindly following, there is an equally blind leader."

                  True, and mostly it is the blind leading the blind. I don't follow anyone, nor would I ever claim/want to be a leader. I don't believe in leaders/followers. It's the one thing I suggest we need to get rid off: leaders and followers.
                  We all are students and teachers alike and all there is are lessons. Once a lesson is learned, one needs to move on. Sometimes lessons are repeated endlessly until they are learned. Personally I have come to a point where new lessons are being presented to me and I'm moving on into a new direction. It's exciting and I'm quite happy and content to be alive in this day and age.
                  Self-knowedge and self-awareness are key for learning/integrating any presented lesson.


                  "They may not have the time or money to take trips to Peru and educate themselves. You should consider yourself lucky and be humbled by your experience rather than foisting your egotistical (and totally incongruous with your practice) opinions of others upon us."

                  Going for two weeks to Peru is not more expensive than spending one week at Burning Man. Money is no isssue here. I'm not rich, things just seems to fall into place sometimes but I'm also not lucky. Everyone can have such experiences and one doesn't have to go to Peru for that. Everyone has his/her own path and lessons to learn. What works for one doesn't work for another.
                  If one is asking certain questions and has certain intentions, paths open up and one is lead in certain directions, depending on the focus and sincerity of the seeker, who is able to see himself/herself beyond the conditoned mask of society/offical culture, beyond being a "machine" that is shaped by society.

                  a quote of Ralph Waldo Emerson comes in mind:

                  "Every man has his own vocation. The talent is the call.
                  There is one direction in which all space is open to him.
                  He has faculties silently inviting him thither to endless exertion.

                  He is like a ship in a river; he runs against obstructions on every side but one; on that side all obstruction is taken away, and he sweeps serenely over God's depths into an infinite sea.

                  This talent and this call depend on his organisation, or the mode in which a general soul incarnates in him. He inclines to do something which is easy to him, and good when it is done, but which no other man can do.

                  He has no rival.

                  For the more truly he consults his own powers, the more difference will his work exhibit from the work of any other. When he is true and faithful, his ambition is exactly proportional to his powers.
                  By doing his work he makes the need felt which only he can supply."



                  The awakening processs does requires work and effort, it doesn't just "happen", what "happens" is the mechanical nature of man, who is a victim of external influneces and conditioning, not being aware of the prison he is in. True, ancient shamanism, the gnostics where/are aware of "the work" only onelself can do and which no one can do for him/her.


                  here some excellent excperpts from "In Search of the Miraculous" by P.D. Ouspensky based on his converstations/studies with G. Gurdjieff. It reminds me very much of the writings of Carl G. Jung and J. Krishnamurti as well as the materail about Organic Portals (machines) and matrix/prison of man at teh Cassiopae site www.cassiopaea.org :


                  "What to do?" asked G. a though surpsrised." It is impossible to do anything. A man must first of all understand certain things. He has thousands of false ideas and false conceptions, chiefly about himself, and he must get rid of some of them before beginning to acquire anything new. Otherwise the new will be built on a wrong foundation and the result will be worse than before."

                  [...]

                  I asked, " Why, if ancient knowledge has been preserved and if, speking in general, there exists a knowledge distinct from our science and philosophy or even surpasssing it, is it so carefully concealed, why is it not made common property? Why are ther men who possess this knowledge unwilling to let it pass into the general circulation of life for the sake of a better an more successful struggle against deceit, evil and ignorance?"
                  "There are two answers to that, " G. said." In the first place, this knowledge is not concealed; and in the second place it cannot, from its very nature, become common property. We will consider the second of these statements first. i will prove to you afterwards that KNOWLEDGE (he emphasized the word) is far more accessible to those capable of assimilating it than is usually supposed; and that the whole trouble is that people either DO NOT WANT IT OR CANNOT RECEIVE IT."

                  [...]

                  "There are periods in the life of humanity, which generally coincide with the beginning of the fall of cultures and civilizations, when the massses irretrievably lose their reason and begin to destroy everything that has been created by centuries and millenniums of culure. Such periods of masss madness, often coinciding with geological cataclysms, climate changes, and similar phenomena of a planetary character, release a very great quantity of the matter of knowledge. Thus the work of collecting scattered matter of knowledge frequently coincides with the beginning of the destruction and fall of cultures and civilizations.
                  The crowd neither wants nor seeks knowledge, and the leaders of the crowd, in their own interests, try to strengthen its fear and dislike of everything new and unknown. The slavery in which mankind lives is based upon this fear. But in order to understand the cause of this slavery it is enough to see how people live, what constitutes the aim of their existence, the object of their desires, passions, and aspirations, of what they think, of what they talk, what they serve and what they worship.
                  Consider what the cultured humanity of our time spends money on; even leaving the war out, what commands the highest price, where the biggest crowds are. if we think for a moment about these questions, it becomes clear that humanity, with the interests it lives by, cannot expect to have anything different from what it has.

                  This is one aspect. The other, as I have said, consists in the fact that no one is concealing anything; there is no mystery whatsoever. but the acquisition or transmission of true knowledge demands great labor and great effort both of him who receives and of him who gives. And those who possess this knowledge are doing everything they can to transmit and communicate it to the greatest possible number of people, to faciliate people's approach to it and enable them to prepare themselves to receive the truth. But knowledge cannot be given by force to anyone.
                  He who wants knowledge must himself make the initial effort to find the source of knowledge and to approach it, taking advantage of the help and indications which are given to all, but which people, as a rule, DO NOT WANT TO SEE OR RECOGNIZE. KNOWLEDGE CANNOT COME TO PEOPLE WITHOUT EFFORT ON THEIR PART."

                  [...]

                  "What do you expect?" said G. " People are machines. Machines have to be blind and unconscious, they cannot be otherwise and all their actions have to correspond to their nature. Everything happens. No one does anything. 'Progress' and' Civilization', in the real meaning of these words can appear only as a result of CONSCIOUS efforts. And what conscious effort can there be in machines. And the uncoscious activity of a million machines must necessarily result in destruction and extermination. it is precisely in uncoscious involuntary manifestations that all evil lies.

                  You do not realize your own situation. you are in a prison. All you can wish for, if you are a sensibel man, is to escape.
                  If a man in prison was at any time to have a chance to escape, then he first must of all realize that he is in prison. So long as he fails to realize this, so long as he thinks he is free, he has no chance whatsoever. No one can help or liberate him by force, against his will, in opposition to his wishes. if liberation is possible, it is possible only as a result of great labor and greta efforts, and, above all, of conscious effort towards a definite aim."

                  [...]

                  "A modern man lives in sleep, in sleep he is born and in sleep he dies. What KNOWLEDGE can a sleeping man have? And if you think about it and at the same time remember that sleep is the chief feature of our being, it will at once becoem clear to you that if a man really wants knowledge, he must first of all think about how to wake, that is, how to change his BEING.
                  Generally speaking, the being of a modern man is of very inferior quality. but it can be of such bad quality that no change is possible. This must always be remembered. People whose being can still be changed are very lucky. but there are people who are definitley diseased, broken machines with whom nothing can be done. And such people are in the majority. if you think of this you will understand why only few can receive real knowledge. Their being prevents it."
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                    Fri, August 24, 2007 - 2:55 PM
                    The realization could be their are some people that you harmonize with and their are some that you do not. I am sure that we will be certain of our connectedness soon enough, then we can know ourself as the unified essence..I am U and U are me! What a wonderful realization that will be.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                    Fri, August 24, 2007 - 3:31 PM
                    Ok B, I appreciate your response.. I really dont even know who I'm defending but I just disagree on the point your making wherein "only few can receive real knowledge".

                    This will do us no good as a society. Teachers and leaders who are far advanced and could help others eventually wind up incarcerated or murdered. The collective conscious as a whole needs to be lifted.. were all in this together sort of thing. Or at least i would like to hope. because where i stand right now, i have no idea if i'm one of the lucky ones to receive real knowledge or what.

                    My friend is trying to get me to go to Peru but I dont believe in having to travel to such extremes to gain knowledge. Nobody truly knows the path and so we agree that it's up to us to choose and learn for ourselves.
                    • Unsu...
                       

                      Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                      Fri, August 24, 2007 - 5:06 PM
                      i thought the movie was a great cinimatic achievment. the movies of the future dealing with this subject will most certainly add the aspects of plant hallucinogens and there roll in human develepment, art and the coming super-conscious. I think people should not omit the role consciousness plays inot this story of man and whats about to happen. here is a link that I find of greta value when understanding the church, the state, and the un-folding blue prints of these two institutions that are contained in all of lifes DNA.
                      www.youtube.com/watch
              • Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                Sat, August 25, 2007 - 1:00 AM
                Bernhard,

                always and forever i promise it's nothing personal. i'm sorry my expressions here on tribe cause you to feel attacked. and yes one of my coping systems is that whole huggingLove thing.

                and...

                you are the gassyiest plant i've ever come across on tribe. bless your Light!! soo much of your posted information is falsefearfunk. it's intOxicating even!

                and..

                the whole "sheeple, troll, wishy washy" name calling labeling thing you do. that sucks.

                and

                does anybody on here actually claim to be a "new ager"?

                and..

                "healing" return patients to finance shamanic journeys is a racket. and i'm certain that if you could heal on the first try you wouldn't sell it.

                and..

                what can i say mAn/dood/boi, i call 'em like i see 'em.

                andialwayshugyou,
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                  Sat, August 25, 2007 - 11:16 AM
                  ""healing" return patients to finance shamanic journeys is a racket. and i'm certain that if you could heal on the first try you wouldn't sell it. "

                  ???

                  I'm not selling anything, I just offered my connections in Peru to anyone who is interested in going down there. I'm not making any money off it. Thank you for suggesting this businesss opportunity, but I'm not interested. Also I didn't go down there with any clients/patients of mine but just with some close friends. Do you need any more personal information so you can stop making assumptions? Thanks again david, for posting personal stuff which has nothing to do with the topic at hand and also thank you for you expertise advice on healing.

                  ....and of course no one CLAIMS to be a "new ager" or "sheep".....duhhh!!!


                  "soo much of your posted information is falsefearfunk"

                  first of all, what is there to fear?
                  secondly, how do you know the info I post is false?
                  And I like funk, especially being a drummer, It' a fun rhythm to play.

                  If you have any research to offer that shows a whole different view then as presented in ZEITGEIST (trying to stay on topic here), then please share. I'm looking for truth, not the need to be right.


                  "always and forever i promise it's nothing personal."

                  That's funny, becasue all your comments after that sentence are quite personal, don't you think?



                  "you are the gassyiest plant i've ever come across on tribe.'

                  and

                  "the whole "sheeple, troll, wishy washy" name calling labeling thing you do. that sucks."

                  Love it when I get labeled/judged for labeling/judging....




                  This is going NOWHERE, just in circles round and round.
                  No worries David, you don't have to deal with my sucking labeling and flasefearfunk any longer.
                  Gottta move on.....
                  Just make sure no one posts here any thing "fearful" or anything which might disturb your world view/belief system.
                  Sleep well.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    I give thanks to Bernhard for so much work to bring so much awareness to so many people!
                    I didn't truly appreciate what an important work is the aforementioned film, until I watched it a few times! And now i am buying copies and getting it out there, thanks to B! And person after person is thanking me for the effort and time and agree that this film is really worth watching a few times.

                    All that wimpy stuff about "credibility" makes me cringe. I watched a very subjective series of reactions to the discussion on the film and got tired of the subjective crap. And then when I pointed out the subjective nature of it all I was referred to as if nothing. So I showed that there is indeed a greater objective reality that some people will do well to wake up to. I regard the whole 'liberal' conditioning as objectionable especially while a million people are killed in Iraq for nothing more than being Iraqi.
                    Rather like the issue of the imprisonment of Leonard Peltier and Tim Caffey (and many more) for being natives, there are too many examples of complacency and all need to be challenged.
                    The remarks about "no effort" and "no truth" were, in my opinion, disgraceful given the amount that I know to be true. When I sit and discuss what has happened with native American and Australian people and the crap that they still have to endure every day thanks to the colonials, I know that some people need a proverbial 'kick up the arse'! So, wake up colonials!

                    I've had lots of criticism on Tribe for my stance on climate change and have no qualms about restating what I know to be true. When I see the submissive and liberal attitudes to that subject I am even more determined that a broader body of evidence is submitted and the discussions widened, so that people wake up to the truth about how they are being duped and programmed. It really is across the board. Again I can give thanks to Bernhard and his wisdom on this subject. He has taken the time to investigate and written vast amounts in attempts to wake people up to what is happening. Again and again the 'liberals' have attacked those of us who dare to stand up against the 'dear leader' Gore and all the other bullshitters in power in the USA, UK and elsewhere. It has absolutely nothing to do with nationalism and everything to do with truth!

                    And still some people out there like Lana are doing great inspired jobs bringing important info to various tribes.
                    There really isn't time for anything else!
                    • Unsu...
                       
                      Thank you Psi....

                      I am thankful for the information that Bernard has given to us too. Its all about waking up to the Truth.

                      I am curious about this article that says the Federal Reserve has outsourced its responsibilities to China? bigpicture.typepad.com/commen...ve.html What does China have to with it all?

                      hmm....

                      Thanks to all the people who really care about this world.... brave enough to make a difference.

                      Peace*
                      Lana

                      ps: Hey Davidsjelly.... what happened to all the millions you claimed you had won in a Lottery awhile back. Are you supporting environmental groups or anything, or .... ? I hope so.... :-)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                    Sun, August 26, 2007 - 11:30 AM
                    Bernhard, you are confused.

                    you have stated that you make your living off of "bodywork/healing". and you have also stated that you have many return clients. i am simply stating that making money this way is a racket.

                    >>>"....and of course no one CLAIMS to be a "new ager" or "sheep".....duhhh!!!"

                    i see... so it's just you labling people as such. out of curiosity... what is in a 'new ager' in your definition? cause i've got this theory that you are in fact a 'new ager'. or least back in the day when you were posting other channeled materials as well as Wayne Dyer and The Secret you came off as pretty 'new agey'.

                    most of what you post is other peoples material. and i'd say that about 30 to 100 percent of it is false... definately a sliding scale. the biggest problem is that sometimes the slice that is false is particularly insidious. and as far as the funk... i'm clearly referring to the smelly stuff between your toes...

                    now when i say that your name calling/labeling thing sucks... i don't mean that you suck. i mean the name calling and labeling sucks. do yourself a favor and peruse your posts in this thread and perhaps a couple others. count up how many times you refer to people on this tribe and people in general in a negative and condesending manner. perhaps you might start to understand why myself and others are speaking out.

                    have a good time in Peru Bernhard. despite what you say about being out of here and all that jazz... well.. you've said this plenty of times before and i'm pretty confident that you'll be back to tell us all how it really is.

                    peaz,
                    • Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                      Mon, August 27, 2007 - 1:16 AM
                      Why do you think being a masseuse is a racket? People pay you for a service... a massage, or bodywork of some sort, to unwind and relax, etc. They enjoy the experience, and go back. How different is this from almost anything else in America? Unless you think everything in America is a racket, and in that, I think you and Bernhard might have something in common for once. Aside from recreational/relaxation purposes, massage has long been held effective in sports medicine and other clinical fields, right?

                      Most of what he posts is other people's material? Do you honestly expect everything everyone posts around here to be 1st party creations? That's the whole point of the internet, a sharing of ideas. You don't have to accept them, of course, but its getting those alternative ideas out there, to stimulate the mind and get people thinking...

                      And what he says about you coming out only when someone takes issue against a post by Bernhard or the man himself does seem to be the case lately davidsjelly. They're the only times I've seen you make much of a post recently, and both times you hadn't added much to the thread previously. Bernhard seems to at least try to take the time to respond to those that question his logic and to explain himself more clearly and provide some source material for his thoughts.

                      This is coming from a usual tribe lurker, but you're just claiming everything he posts is mostly false, without anything to back that up but your word.

                      We all have our own ideas, it sure seems that lately, everyone has been really eager to express them, even myself, obviously. Sometimes we come off as direct, or abrasive, but I don't think any of us here are really mean, or hateful people. We're all in this tribe for a reason right? Maybe we should all keep these things in mind when someone shares their thoughts, eh?

                      -N




                      • Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                        Mon, August 27, 2007 - 8:57 AM
                        what can i say Nathan... other than my simple statement that bodywork/healing for return patients is a racket. and yes.. you are right... most things in this country are a racket. it is however my feeling that Bernhard spends so much of his time posting here and on other sites like myspace as it's good for business. that of course is just an opinion.... but you'll notice on his profile that it's the first advert.

                        >>>"Most of what he posts is other people's material? Do you honestly expect everything everyone posts around here to be 1st party creations?"

                        no i don't. however i would like it if he would stop telling everyone how stupid, wishy washy or sheeple they are if they don't agree with what he posts. he consistently adds such statements like some sort of disclaimer. this hurts rather than helps. check it out yourself Nathan. give a quick runthrough of Bernhard's posts and count up how many times he refers to people other than himself in a negative or condescending manner.

                        as far as me coming on only when others disagree with him. check this thread again. you will see that i simply commented on those who call others 'trolls' when they don't agree with them. he followed this up by naming me as attacking him personally. the fact is... myself, Auton, HD, TreeFrog, Ferrara and certainly Hoopes have spoken up about his self-rightious cynical sarcastic tone, broad assumptions and loose spraying of questionable information . we're just sayin'... that's all.

                        sometimes we can come off as direct or abrasive... it's all good... here on this public discussion board we all have a voice.

                        Live in Love,
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                          Mon, August 27, 2007 - 9:21 AM
                          All this time and energy spent trying to tell somebody you don't like, that you don't like them. There is simply no point. It happens everywhere on the internet, and It's very tedious to watch. I would suggest if anyone has problems with someone's 'tone' or disclaimers they put the beginning of an otherwise OK message, to just see it for what it is and not take the bait. If someone is trying to belittle you for what you've written there is virtually no point responding with equally silly comments. We are all here to share information with each other and yes, challenge it but it seems almost impossible for people not to get defensive and rude with one another. With all that time you wasted doing that we could have been further down in the thread conversation.

                          It's not too late to just get over yourselves.
                        • Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                          Mon, August 27, 2007 - 12:11 PM
                          I see your point David, I haven't been around and involved as you or some of the people you've mentioned, so maybe I'm just catching the tip of the iceberg. I still think it might be a bit of a stretch that Bernhard is he posting for business. One would think there would be better ways to attract a more mainstream market as a masseuse then to post esoteric links and videos. ;)

                          I don't pretend to know the history between you two, but it does seem like you guys do have a lot in common, as much as you guys don't have in common. And I also see what you mean about the way Bernhard has a tendency to sometimes dismiss others who don't follow his modes of thought. His one statement about knowing better than to deal with the trolls, was pretty disappointing when I read it, no doubt... but I get the feeling that Bernhard wouldn't totally forsake anyone on this tribe. He seems to genuinely care and be passionate about what he believes in, yet that does seem to rub off kind of strong, eh? Maybe I'm filtering his posts through my own thought processes, and I just tend to agree with a lot of what he has to say regularly.

                          I think you know david, I wasn't trying to take sides here, but just to try and offer another perspective on things.
                          ***** ****** ******
                          In any case, I watched this movie again, and still enjoyed it thoroughly... have a couple of friends I've been meaning to show it to, but as the one person in my group of friends who is very interested in some of the alternative ideas suggested in the film, sometimes it can be difficult to get someone interested to watch a 2 1/2 movie about how we're all imprisoned by institutions. I often feel like I'm being labeled a conspiracy theorist just for entertaining these thoughts. I don't "believe" in anything, as beliefs can be incredibly limiting. I won't believe that the government sponsored the terrorist attacks until it becomes common knowledge. But I do think we should ask questions and find as many answers as we can, wherever they lead.

                          Anyone have any thoughts about how you would present this film to those who have little interest in these ideas?

                          -N
                          • Unsu...
                             

                            Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                            Mon, August 27, 2007 - 1:14 PM
                            Nathan,

                            It would be interesting to show the film to some fundementalist Christians and see the reaction. My bet would be violent disagreement with the 'Christ just another Pagan Hero/God' segment and broad agreement with the rest.

                            For a Christian in that mould (and I was one for many years) the first part of the film would confirm to me the level of deciet being undertaken by Satan to undermine the 'faithful'. This is where any wish towards an open debate would die. Once you are a 'believer' in something then your world view ( at least in that dimension) gets set. You could present all the evidence to the contrary in the world - a believer would simply dismiss it (and probably you) as the work of the Devil/New World Order/Industrial Military complex.

                            Once someone believes and has the experience of having seen 'The Truth' then the chances of actually having an open debate on both sides is virtually zero.

                            I have found very few 'believers' willing to honestly examine their 'faith'. Oh they say they will, and I genuinely believe that they think they can, but it becomes obvious - especially when the defensive and then personalised comments start - that there is a lot of fear invested in the belief too. We all exhibit this behaviour in some form in some part of our lives.






                            • Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                              Mon, August 27, 2007 - 8:24 PM
                              Cool post Jeri, and I agree. That's exactly what is so unsettling to me, considering the fundamentalist Christian right holds such a massive sway in America. And yes, a lot of fear is invested in their "beliefs." Which is why I've really tried to steer away from believing in anything. A more fluid standpoint lends itself more to creating an open community.

                              How do you break people from these molds? If they weren't doing harm, and practicing their own faith, and leaving everyone else alone, I would have no problem with it. But these groups are lobbying for huge restrictions of choice in our nation. I'm not trying to single out religious folks here, if you're thinking that, btw. Obviously all sorts of people could take issue with some of the ideas in the film.

                              Btw, anyone been following Zeitgeist's progress on youtube? I don't know if comments can be trusted, but apparently the final version keeps getting taken down. I just did a search for it, and can only find it in portions. The full version is, however, available at google video.

                              Anyone else seen Aaron Russo's new film, Freedom to Facscim? I started to watch it, and it looked like it had great potential, but I've got plans tonight, and wasn't able to watch the whole thing.

                              -N
                          • Re: the boys who cry 'troll'

                            Mon, August 27, 2007 - 9:11 PM
                            i hear what you are saying Nathan. i appreciate your speaking up. and in fact it might be a bit of stretch that Berhnhard's very active posting is for business purposes. i suppose it's just something i've been sensing over the years and more likely is related to my own issues with those who make money from any kind of 'healing'. especially when it's those who are shamanically inclined. i feel strongly that healing is very much a personal issue and must be utimately dealt with personally without external action or substances. anyone who sets themselves up with return patients as a healer is only slowing the process. and if money is requested it only adds another external factor slowing the process even further. and this i consider a racket. but i do realize these are my own understandings and need not be true for you.

                            N.A.... i also very much appreciate your point as well. yet all that same... i find i much more enjoy discussion boards like this when the discussion is truely open. i wouldn't dream of censoring what is being said... however i do by right of participation enjoy giving voice to any thoughts i observe. we're all just playing our thing here and this tribedotnet is, no matter how you slice or dice it, the Ego gAme. i like to call out wrong speach when i read it cause that i figure is what we are up to here along of course with... right speach.

                            ninehundredelevenhugs,
                            • Unsu...
                               

                              Zeitgeist

                              Tue, August 28, 2007 - 5:30 PM
                              okay so i watched it

                              i s'pose i agree with the general premise, that people in power create myths to control the masses

                              and 9/11 is clearly one of these myths, tho i think Zeitgeist's presentation was a rather underwhelming pastiche of better documentaries like "911 Press for Truth" and "Truth and Lies of 911", although slicker and more sensational.

                              there was some interesting stuff in part 1 like where they briefly showed the inscriptions of what was supposedly the annunciation and adoration of Horus

                              but i sense an agenda here. when they talk about Josephus they make it seem like only one passage mentions Jesus, when in fact there are two. and while one of them has been largely debunked (although there is some evidence that elements of it, including the reference to Jesus could be authentic), the other IS widely (tho not universally) believed to originate with Josephus.

                              even if both passages are complete forgeries, this oversight shows either shoddy research or wilfull disregard on behalf of the filmmakers.

                              (btw the passages are in Antiquities book 18 chapter 63 and book 20 chapter 9 if you want to check it.)

                              and then the whole thing about the bible being completely based on astrology... yeah a lot of it probly is influenced by astrology, but there's a little more to it, i would say especially in the New Testament, and that something is no trivial little thing, it's the absolute foundation of Christianity, the personality of Jesus.
                              a lot of the mythology about his conception life and death and all probly has been taken from the old mystery religions, but if Jesus never lived, where did his inspired personality come from? a bunch of imperial conspirators? well when you think about how the first christians were routinely thrown in prison and executed because of the threat their beliefs posed to the estalished order, it casts a little doubt on that idea.

                              "...almost the only original element in Christianity is the personality of Jesus."
                              -Robert Graves

                              "No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."
                              - Albert Einstein

                              and if Jesus was just an invention why would invested powers create a cult around a figure of absolute revolution? look at christians like the Amish and Mennonites that haven't been corrupted and coopted by the phonies... they are about the staunchest non-violent anti-war folks you'll find anywhere. even the Catholic church if I remember right was at least outwardly against the Iraq invasion.
                              i am not nor have i ever been affilliated with a church (outside of my own temple) yet I got a ride to the big anti-war protest in DC in the fall of 2002 with a group of people from a christian university. the only other anti-war rally i've attended since (this one in seattle) convened at a church.

                              Jesus isn't a myth concocted by imperialists, or if he was it was quite a blunder on their part. the imperialists have simply infiltrated and perverted the church and distorted the image of Jesus to suit their own ends because they know, if the truth of Jesus' personality were revealed to the masses it would totally undermine their goals

                              and the idea that because Jesus life mirrors other messiahs of the past he must have never lived is a bit like saying that because the destruction of the twin towers is so reminiscent of the legend of Babel, the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, and the Tarot card, that the towers never actually fell and the whole story is actually just a reissue of Babylonian / Hebrew / Occult myths from the past.

                              but despite the similarities to ancient archetypal events, i think the twin towers probably really did fall, and maybe a lot of the myth-like events of Jesus' life really did take place.

                              it's not that these things didn't happen, it's that their true significance has been covered up.

                              eg. The towers didn't fall because a cabal of fascists wanted a "new pearl harbor" to exploit, and a bunch of other perk benefits, but because 19 moslem fundamentalists hate americans for their freedoms
                              and Jesus wasn't some peace and love hippy type preaching unity among earth's religions and peoples, but a prophet of western superiority and the necessity to subjugate and kill brown people.
                              • Re: Zeitgeist

                                Tue, August 28, 2007 - 8:41 PM
                                It seem most people take issue with the first part of the film, which I think is to be expected since it deal with stuff that happened so long ago and is open to such wide interpretation.

                                I don't know if there was an agenda, but I'm sure like any other documentary they were including the evidence to support their case. I don't understand when you say, "They act like there was only one passage mentioning Jesus, when in fact there are two." But then you go on to say one of those has been largely debunked, bringing the total back to one. Which I'm guessing is the one they covered.

                                I'm bringing this up only because I lack a good foundation in historical Christianity, not to take issue with your thoughts Treefrog. :)

                                I also agree that not every single story and word were lifted from astrological beliefs of the pagan people before the Bible, but it certainly lends itself to provide an excellent foundation to create a false idol. His inspired personality seems to just be the archetypal "good guy." A saint of a man, who wounded the sick, helped the poor, etc. Someone to look up to, to inspire and, when necessary, command armies...

                                That being said, I still believe in the metaphors of the Bible, there really is an amazing, optimistic message in the words therein. It speaks of hope, salvation, etc. I just find it hard to believe all these miraculous things done by one man, and as they document in the film, that was not recorded by any other traveling historians of that era.

                                After doing a bit of research while writing this post, it seems to me that only some of the gospels in the New Testament can be claimed to authentic, and even then, many of them are said to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, and therefore authoritative. Please correct me if I'm wrong, this was just a quick perusal of wikipedia entries, which I know can be far from the truth.

                                Btw, the Catholic church has also long been against molestation of children, yet whenever any of their bishops got caught before their bubble burst a few years ago, they would outwardly condemn the incidents, and inwardly just move the bishops around and hush the families. Also - my parents both went to TCU (Texas "Christian" University) and neither of them were Christians, nor any of their friends they met there. They were all hippies like us.

                                "And the idea that because Jesus life mirrors other messiahs of the past he must have never lived is a bit like saying that because the destruction of the twin towers is so reminiscent of the legend of Babel,... ...that the towers never actually fell and the whole story is actually just a reissue of Babylonian / Hebrew / Occult myths from the past."

                                I'm sorry Frog, but I don't follow your logic here. We *know* the towers fell, as that just happened in our modern world and was documented. And I thought the story of Babel was that the people of Babylon wanted to build a tower into the Heavens, but this angered God and he saw fit to make every person involved in its construction, speak a different language. Which henceforth caused the project to grind to a halt, and then the people of the land scattered. None of this was can take for certain, however.

                                I don't claim to be an expert, of course, so please educate and correct me where I'm wrong. But I'm enjoying this discussion, know that I'm just bringing up your points to keep things going. :) I wasn't totally clear on your position on two other parts of the film, and since you seem to have a critical mind, I'd be interested in hearing it!

                                peace for now!
                                -Nathan
















                                • Re: Zeitgeist

                                  Wed, August 29, 2007 - 3:18 AM
                                  There have been many prophets over millennia.

                                  Wallace Black Elk taught that the word 'Hipi' is an old First Nations word that refers to a person with long hair who travelled in the Americas, healing and learning and sharing. The adoption of the word comes from the First Nations not from the word 'hip'.

                                  According to some sources there were 2 Jesus characters and one died fighting the Romans.
                                  According to lots of info that we have here in Albion, Joseph of Arimathea came with various disciples (women and men) after the supposed 'crucifixion' and made stronger the connection with the Druidry. The Celtic church was founded largely thanks to the Druidry and the fact that Jesus was a fully initiated Druid (having travelled to these islands many years before). The Celtic church was the original church and was a long time before the foundation of a Roman church which rose out of the very corrupt and imperialist Roman empire.
                                  The Roman church was another attempt to continue the imperial aspirations of Rome and the whole bloody occult mess that included Alexander's genocide and the Roman genocide, on and on until this day! It is the Anunaki and the whole Illuminati mess that has brought so much suffering to this planet and its people, and which is going to collapse like a dinosaur, very soon!

                                  If the Illuminati had chosen Buddha, Mohammed or some other prophet person as their model then voila! different story! They chose this Jesus fella because he was born conveniently near to the beginning of Pisces (actually he was born 4-5 years before because he was born during Herod's reign and Herod died in 4 BC (d'uh!). But he was a Piscean prophet and that worked well for the Illuminati types who need to polarise and separate humans as part of their master plan.

                                  The astrological references are important because the whole of the masonic story is founded in astrology, and all the rulers and elite use astrology at every turn of their dirty plans. It has been part of their strength but will also prove to be part of their weakness. In order to control the masses they have had to belittle and control astrology (even calling it 'witchcraft' and killing those who used it), but there are far too many wise people about now. The only way that the Illuminati can hope to control humanity now is by culling whole sections of population and by using fear and polarisation to separate. They are failing on many levels, partly because there are other forces involved, who exist in other levels of reality (the 98% of reality that is unseen), and who want this project to carry on.

                                  The finer points of Zeitgeist are to be thrashed out in the future, but I feel that it presents important information for large sections of humanity, most of which will confirm what many are feeling and info which profoundly empowers folk to stop giving power away to the great swindle that is called 'democracy', banks, religion, etc.
                                  What the film does is to compress alot into a short time, something that few films have done before. Other films may follow and the greater picture will be helped by 'Time of the Sixth Sun' and others.

                                  The overall message is one of self-awareness, empowerment, self-love, expression and true human potential, being what are really going to make a difference. None are possible when people blindly allow the deliberate manipulation and genocide that is being orchestrated by the elite and their hierarchy, hence a film which helps remove that blindness.

                                  • Unsu...
                                     

                                    Re: Zeitgeist

                                    Wed, August 29, 2007 - 6:29 AM
                                    Psi,

                                    What do you think of the idea that, when you 'look' at the Elite and the Illuminati, you are actually looking at your Self?
                                    • Re: Zeitgeist

                                      Thu, August 30, 2007 - 5:55 AM
                                      "What do you think of the idea that, when you 'look' at the Elite and the Illuminati, you are actually looking at your Self?"

                                      As the groups referred to have existed for hundreds of years then it isn't me, is it?
                                      All that new age type philosophy is frankly rubbish.
                                      The First Nations have been talking about all kinds of profound teachings about the greater reality for hundreds of years. In return they have been beaten, murdered and imprisoned for it. Meanwhile they have to deal with people like you who want to turn the whole thing into a subjective reality. No wonder they think that colonials know virtually nothing!
                                      No of course you're right - the universe only exists in my mind and you are a figment of it! Silly me!
                                      Oh yes and 911 never really happened, nor did the genocide of millions of natives in the Americas. It was the law of attraction that did it anyway wasn't it? They caused their own deaths because secretly they wanted it to happen.

                                      And on and on and on while life is actually happening around you!
                                      Wake up! There is a universe out there which exists without your mind believing in it and existed before you were born!
                                • Unsu...
                                   

                                  Re: Zeitgeist

                                  Wed, August 29, 2007 - 6:06 AM
                                  Tree frog,

                                  Re Josephus - There seems to be pretty consistent academic support for the idea that the Jesus passages are later additions added by Christian copyists. As Bart Ehrman has shown, this was a consistent literary device in the Early Church - attributing or adapting the writings of other authors to support a particular viewpoint - like the various letters attributed to Paul, Peter and James that made it into the New Testament.

                                  The historical Jesus will, in my opinion, always be subject to belief rather than fact. For those Christians who do not subscribe to a literalist belief in scripture it remains largely unproblematic. The Apostle Paul himself had to face this issue early on in his ministry when it was pointed out that, unlike the other Apostles, he hadn't actually seen or spent time with Jesus. As such, could he really call himself an Apostle? Paul's argument is based around that whatever Jesus was in the flesh is largely irrelevant - it is Christ as the Risen Lord that is the key - and Paul had a direct experience of Him on the road to Damascus.
                                  • Unsu...
                                     

                                    Re: Zeitgeist

                                    Thu, September 6, 2007 - 8:48 AM
                                    2,373,997 views since the launch of the film at the end of june.

                                    That's great!
                                    • Unsu...
                                       

                                      Re: Zeitgeist

                                      Fri, September 7, 2007 - 1:09 AM
                                      but 2,373,996 viewings were by you Bernhard. Shouldn't that count as !1 ?

                                      :-))
                                      • Unsu...
                                         

                                        Re: Zeitgeist

                                        Fri, September 7, 2007 - 7:32 AM
                                        damn, you caught me!!

                                        :-)
                                        • Re: Zeitgeist

                                          Fri, September 7, 2007 - 9:49 AM
                                          Definitely essential viewing. Thanks for putting out the word.

                                          I'm propagating the link all over the place. Does that make me a terrorist?

                                          I'm wondering...
                                          The fact that a movie like this could be created and not suppressed is somewhat counterintuitive to the alleged power of the ruling elite.
                                          Despite the apparent unfolding of this 60 year old master plan, they must be fearful that conscious media is going to crack the facade.

                                          It's nowhere near a tipping point, but the number of people who have already watched this movie is encouraging.
                                          • Unsu...
                                             

                                            Re: Zeitgeist

                                            Fri, September 7, 2007 - 10:48 AM
                                            "The fact that a movie like this could be created and not suppressed is somewhat counterintuitive to the alleged power of the ruling elite."

                                            They are not that all powerful. That's the illusion. The power they have is propotional to the people being silent/obedient/conforming.
                                            If people would get out their selfish tunnel-vision approach of life and stand up for what really matters, the game would be over in no time.
                                            But then again, many are programmed/conditioned/brainwashed to believe in a false reality as presented to them through media, government, religion and education. Once people can look through the game, the "rules" change.
                                            This film helps in the process of de-programming.
                                            But more is necessary than just watching it.
                                            De-conditioning is just the first step, however, it is the most important one.
                                            It is like taking the red pill as opposed to the blue pill.

                                            "You take the blue pill - the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.
                                            You take the red pill - you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it." - Morpheus
                                            • Re: Zeitgeist

                                              Fri, September 7, 2007 - 3:55 PM
                                              > They are not that all powerful. That's the illusion. The power they have is
                                              > propotional to the people being silent/obedient/conforming.

                                              we have the power, and we are putting apart piece by piece their lies and deceptions
  • eye noticed similarities in The Pharmacratic Inquisition 2007 www.gnosticmedia.com/

    or..

    video.google.com/videoplay


    “The apocalypse is not something which is coming. The apocalypse has arrived in major portions of the planet and it's only because we live within a bubble of incredible privilege and social insulation that we still have the luxury of anticipating the apocalypse. If you go to Bosnia or Somalia or Peru or much of the third-world then it appears that the apocalypse has already arrived.” ~Terence McKenna


    thanks for sharing Bernhard!!
    • Unsu...
       
      I'll be at the film premiere of ZEITGEIST tonight at the Egyptian theatre in Hollywood.
      Maybe I see some of you there.

      B:-)


      A REMASTERED VERSION OF 'ZEITGEIST' WILL PREMIERE AT THE
      "4TH ANNUAL ARTIVISTS FILM FESTIVAL" ON NOVEMBER 10TH IN
      LOS ANGELES.

      A PANEL Q & A WITH THE CREATOR, PETER JOSEPH, AND VARIOUS SCHOLARS WILL FOLLOW THE SCREENING.

      PLEASE COME OUT AND SUPPORT THE COURAGE OF ARTIVISTS.ORG TO PRESENT THE FIRST MAJOR SHOWING OF "ZEITGEIST, THE MOVIE"

      Saturday, November 10, 2007 at 9:00 PM
      The Egyptian Theater (Rigler Theater)
      6712 Hollywood Blvd.
      Hollywood, CA 90028
      Phone: (310) 712-1222
      Website: www.Artivists.org
      E-Mail: info@artivists.org


      "ARTIVIST" is the first international film festival and awards dedicated
      to addressing Human Rights, Children's Advocacy, Environmental
      Preservation, and Animal Rights. Our mission is to strengthen the voice
      of activist artists - "Artivists" - while raising public awareness for
      social global causes.

  • but find out for themselves, for truth is not told, it is realized.
    Here, here. TRUE words, but truth can be told none the less, to inspire ones own realization and awakening to the core truth of us all. The walls of deception we ultimately took part in are coming down.